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The Brief with Jim Sciutto
CNN International: U.S.-Ukraine Minerals Deal Signed; Trump Blames Biden as U.S. Economy Shrinks; Mohsen Mahdawi Freed in Vermont; Trial Begins for Erin Patterson; Meta and Microsoft Report Strong Results; IMAX CEO on China Tariffs. Aired 6-7p ET
Aired April 30, 2025 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[18:00:00]
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Hello and welcome to our viewers joining us from all around the world. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington. And you're watching
"The Brief."
Just ahead this hour, it's done. Documents signed on a rare earth's deal between the U.S. and Ukraine. according to a source, despite some last-
minute disagreements. President Trump questions the need for the U.S. to consume so much from China. He blames his predecessor for the U.S. economy
as it suffers its worst quarters since 2022. And he admits there may be shortages of goods coming. And the CEO of IMAX weighs in on China tariffs
and their effect on movie making and sales. That conversation and plenty more coming up.
First though, breaking news on that long anticipated, long debated minerals deal between the U.S. and Ukraine. The U.S. Treasury Department says the
documents for the deal have been signed by the two sides despite some last- minute disagreements. The deal has been a priority for President Trump and Trump will no doubt frame this as a major win for him.
Earlier today, U.S. Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent said Washington was ready to sign, but Kyiv was trying to make some changes. Ukraine has
deposits of 22 of the 50 materials classified as critical by the U.S. Geological Survey, among them, nickel and lithium, key for batteries.
Nataliia Shapoval is the chair of KSE Institute, that's an analytical center at the Kyiv School of Economics. Good to have you here. Quite a day
to have you here.
NATALIIA SHAPOVAL, CHAIR, KSE INSTITUTE: Yes. Amazing. Hello.
SCIUTTO: Some European officials viewed an earlier version of this agreement as colonial, as exploitative. And I wonder, has this latest
conversion -- latest version of the deal corrected those problems?
SHAPOVAL: So, the latest version doesn't have the loan, like imaginary loan that it had has for some versions. And right now, it looks as the
investment fund that is co-invested by Ukraine and by the U.S. And there is like joint governance that is assumed in it, probably from the U.S. going
to be development financial corporation involved, DFC. And that's going to be the fund that invest into the recovery of Ukraine. So, all this like
negative scenario around it dissipated for this latest version.
SCIUTTO: There had been some talk initially that Trump wanted payback for prior U.S. military aid via these mineral deals -- these mineral
agreements, but that's been taken away. In other words, it's all forward- looking as opposed to pay us back for how we've helped you prior.
SHAPOVAL: Exactly, this is the case. There is a wording that all the military support that U.S. is going to be providing upfront going to be as
a contribution to this fund. So, a little bit of that, but everything is about the future. All the revenue that Ukrainian government would
contribute from these licenses of the -- like rare earth minerals or all other raw materials going to go from the future projects, which is very
critical for Ukraine.
SCIUTTO: Do Ukrainian leaders -- do you see this deal as the price in effect of maintaining a relationship with President Trump?
SHAPOVAL: In this current version, it's a win-win. So, Ukraine stays like win, win, win. Like Ukraine stays at the negotiation with the Trump team.
It was very important for them. So, we didn't have way without it. Secondly, it's recovery investment fund. So -- which is going to invest in
Ukraine. And thirdly, these critical raw materials and the energy and infrastructure that the deal covers, they are really priority sectors for
Ukrainian economy to invest for Europe. So, right now, it looks as a very positive story on every angle.
SCIUTTO: Does Ukraine, as we move to discussion of the potential peace agreement, which has been stumbling and in a large part because Russia has
not agreed to a ceasefire or to any other con concessions, does the Ukraine see President Trump changing his view of Vladimir Putin and Russia?
SHAPOVAL: Yes. So, the -- not much wins on that front, unfortunately. So, Ukraine, I think every day is getting a little bit frustrated, like regular
Ukrainians, like myself, that there is no like strong leverage from the U.S. side that we would see, OK, this is how it's going to be negotiated.
[18:05:00]
And we don't expect that -- like talking about myself, that Putin going to comply with the ceasefire. So, I think many Ukrainians want something
stronger than only like trade investment negotiations. So -- but, you know, if Trump can deliver that, everyone going to be just happy about it.
SCIUTTO: Do you have hope or do you believe it's likely that President Trump will, at some point, provide reliable security guarantees to Ukraine
as part of any agreement or perhaps if not the U.S. then Europe does?
SHAPOVAL: So, we hope for that. Right now, I think the baseline scenario is that many people in Ukraine consider as a baseline is that U.S. going to
be less present in European security and going to be less present as guarantor for Europe in general, and for Ukraine in particular.
So, the biggest and I think the critical path for Ukrainian security and for European too is to have the air defense, Patriots, satellite imagery,
long grants (ph) provided, or at least for like -- bought by the Europe and Ukraine from the United States. I think this baseline is, you know, quite
conservative and we hope that that going to be available.
And then Europe and Ukraine -- and I think it's very important that this Trump basically create this incentive for Europe to step in more. This we
read very positively I think. Going to deliver more protection.
Of course, we would love to have U.S. providing security guarantees, but -- and I hope like Zelenskyy can negotiate that. But I think the majority
would consider it as a like really on the very positive side.
SCIUTTO: Understood. Well, Nataliia Shapoval, nice to see you in person and we hope that soon your home in Kyiv is safe.
SHAPOVAL: Thank you.
SCIUTTO: Well, President Trump playing the blame game after a new report shows that the U.S. economy shrank due his tariff wars. The report coming
just one day after his administration's so-called 100 days of greatness shows the U.S. economy contracted three-tenths of a percent in the first
three months of this year. It is the first quarter of negative growth in the U.S. since 2022, and a sharp turnaround from the fourth quarter's
growth rate of almost two point a half percent. That of course, when Joe Biden was president.
The big reason is a more than 40 percent spike sin U.S. imports as companies rushed to bring in goods before tariff hikes. Weaker consumer and
government spending also hurt growth over recession, fears and federal cuts. The president said none of this is his fault, laying the blame
completely, despite those numbers and the data, on the previous president.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: And I have to start off by saying that's Biden, that's not Trump. Because we came in on January, these are quarterly
numbers. And we came in and I was very against everything that Biden was doing. And we had numbers that despite what we were handed, we turned them
around.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: In fact, as we said, the facts show that it was reactions to the tariffs that led to that drop in economic growth. Another economic report
out today shows private companies adding just 62,000 workers this month. That was about half of what you -- what was expected. The monthly U.S. Jobs
report out Friday is expected to show a slowdown in employment as well.
Richard Quest joins me now. So, Richard, simple question because you saw Donald Trump's claims. This is all President Biden's fault. In fact, when
you look at the numbers, this was a reaction, was it not, to the tariffs?
RICHARD QUEST, CNN BUSINESS EDITOR-AT-LARGE AND CNN ANCHOR, QUEST MEANS BUSINESS: Well, technically, yes, it is a big reaction to the tariffs.
Because what you do with imports is you deduct imports from your GDP number. Why? Because imports are not part of your gross domestic product
created.
Therefore, you -- look, there are so many things being shoved on ships, on trains, anywhere you could think of to get it into the United States before
the tariffs took effect, that that's not surprising. It is disingenuous to claim it was Biden's fault. There was nothing to do with Biden. If you look
at Q4 numbers and you compare revisions, it's nothing to do with it.
And in fact, Jim, I'll go further. Although, the next quarter's numbers will obviously not have that same level of imports, the next quarter will
show the true nature of the slowdown as a result of the tariffs. Because at the end of the day, we -- the tariffs are having such a dramatic effect,
particularly come Christmas when toys, which should be being ordered, manufactured, even shipped now, where it should all be happening now,
aren't. The president had to answer that.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Maybe the children will have two dolls instead of 30 dolls, you know. And maybe the two dolls will cost a couple of bucks more than they
would normally. They have ships that are loaded up with stuff, much of which -- not all of it, but much of which we don't need.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
QUEST: He's preparing the ground, Jim. He's preparing the ground for shortages of some toys and just basically a slowdown.
SCIUTTO: That was exactly my reaction, that he's preparing the ground, because he may try to hide the numbers or downplay them, but he is reading
the numbers there. And when I heard him say, well, maybe they could buy fewer -- maybe they can have less choice. That sounds to me like austerity.
I don't remember the word austerity in any of the campaign statements or ads in this last cycle.
QUEST: You know, those sorts of words ring particularly true here. I'm in Prague tonight, a country that knows very well, sitting in a country, the
idea of just wait till tomorrow, just wait until tomorrow.
And by the way, Jim, if I can just go off at a tangent completely. It's all related in some sense. Just up the road from where I am, which you'll
appreciate this, is Radio Free Europe and Radio Liberty, which of course have just had a sort of temporary reprieve.
Why am I mentioning all of these things? Because wherever we go in the world now, whether it's toys from China, Radio Free Europe and Radio,
Liberty up the road, economic difficulties, countries having to deal with tariffs, the damage is just about everywhere and nobody can really see a
way out of it at the moment.
SCIUTTO: Yes. And the damage in economic numbers and in soft power as well. We're going to have a discussion about that later in the show, but
about the American brand, as you heard one banker say just last week, damage to the brand. Richard Quest in Prague, beautiful city, thanks so
much.
Well, U.S. car makers got a little bit of breathing room from the Trump administration on tariffs this week, but new U.S. tariffs on car parts do
kick in this weekend, and the health of the U.S. consumer remains uncertain.
Jim Farley, the CEO of Ford, spoke to CNN earlier today. He said that sales are strong for now, but that big uncertainties from tariffs remain.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIM FARLEY, PRESIDENT AND CEO, FORD MOTOR COMPANY: There may be a lot of customers going out and buying cars, you know, before what they fear is the
imports increasing prices. That may be a dynamic we're certainly seeing. Our inventories are shrinking at the dealership. We know exactly what the
tariff bill would look like, you know, in terms of cost for the company, we know the offsets. What we don't know is how competitors are going to
respond.
You know, we're the most American company. So, if there's any company that can manage through these tariffs, it's Ford. We make 80 percent here. So --
and our competitors are different. Even the domestic competitors are some of the biggest importers into our industry. So, you know, they will have a
totally different tariff bill. You don't think of all the three domestic companies as the same? We're not. We're really different.
But as I said, you know, next week I think we'll be able to tell people kind of what the tariff bills for Ford would look like. The most American
company. What will kind of offsets. What we don't know, Erin, is what are the import competitors going to do? Are they going to build 10 factories?
Are they going to take pricing and pass it on to the customer this summer?
You know, the stuff we built now is priced. If we announce a price increase now, it'll go into play in July and August. So, we have to wait until then
to see what our competitors do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Ford, CEO, Jim Farley, speaking to my colleague Erin Burnett earlier today. We are following developments in two high profile U.S.
deportation cases. In the past few hours, a Palestinian student who was arrested just before his final interview for U.S. citizenship has now been
freed. Mohsen Mahdawi's released ordered by a judge in Vermont. Speaking outside the courthouse, Mohsen Mahdawi likened his arrest to an abduction.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MOHSEN MAHDAWI, STUDENT: Directly after I was taken into process -- into the processing center, they had already my flight tickets printed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, no.
MAHDAWI: They took me to Burlington Airport and we just missed the airplane, which is a commercial airplane by nine minutes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[18:15:00]
SCIUTTO: The judge in that ruling likened his arrest to the Red Scare in the 1950s here in the U.S. Elsewhere, sources say the U.S. secretary of
state has been in touch with the president of El Salvador regarding the detention ongoing of Kilmar Abrego Garcia, the Maryland man, who the
administration admitted was deported wrongfully.
Katelyn Polantz has been following the Garcia case for us. So, the U.S. is talking to El Salvador. What are they hearing? I thought they were friends.
KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, there's a lot of things that have happened over the past seven days, including this new
reporting that our team was able to confirm that Rubio and Bukele, they were in touch over Abrego Garcia. At the same time, you have Trump saying,
I could pick up the phone and ask El Salvador to send him back, and I'm not going to be doing that. The lawyers tell me not to.
The other thing we learned was that the U.S. did make an overture for El Salvador to send Abrego Garcia back to the United States, and El Salvador
said no. All of this was a moment where a diplomatic resolution was possible. That moment now seems to have passed. We are back now in this
situation where Rubio is publicly declining to speak about any communication he would've had with Bukele in the cabinet meeting today and
in court. Abrego Garcia's case is still there. A judge is not letting the pause continue and wants answers from the administration on exactly what
they have done to try and get him back.
SCIUTTO: The administration's saying he's talking, but that El Salvador's refusing to let him go? Because I mean, the presidents are friends and the
U.S. is paying, is it not, for the detention of these individuals?
POLANTZ: Yes. We have heard over and over and over again, not just in this reporting, but even publicly when Bukele was in the United States, sitting
next to Trump in the Oval Office, he said, why would I bring him -- send him back to the U.S. I'm not going to do that.
And so, the administration has just washed its hands of it publicly, politically, in doing so. But there is this thing in court, still where a
judge is saying you have to facilitate his return somehow. You have to do more than nothing. And you have to show me and tell his lawyers what you're
doing. That's what's continuing on now, because it really is a question of what due process he got, if anything.
SCIUTTO: OK. So, for all the controversy over shipping, sometimes -- well, sometimes individuals who did not get the advantages of due process as is
their right, there's now discussion the administration's going to send migrants to Libya and Rwanda?
POLANTZ: Yes, that is the reporting that was out today from Priscilla Alvarez and Kylie Atwood who cover immigration in the State Department, the
Homeland Security Department here. That talk that the administration is having, the discussions they're having with Libya and Rwanda, it's not a
set deal yet and it would be about migrants who have criminal records and are in the United States, a way to get them out, remove them, and also, a
public pronouncement to deter other people to come here. This message, we'll send you thousands of miles away if you're here not fairly or
undocumented.
SCIUTTO: But what legal recourse would deportees have in Libya or Rwanda if, for instance, they were sent there mistakenly, as we've seen in the
case of El Salvador?
POLANTZ: Well, that is going to be a big question hanging over anything like this. What is the legal recourse for people? There would very likely
be lawsuits over this if a deal like this came into play. But the thing really that all of this is about, not just sending people to Libya or
Rwanda, possibly sending people to El Salvador prison, which we know has happened mistakenly, it's a question of do those people get the appropriate
amount of hearings in the immigration system and in courts before they're put on a plane and shipped out of the country? That's the big question.
SCIUTTO: Judge -- and at least one case said they did not. Katelyn Polantz, thanks so much. Now, to Australia where a woman accused of fatally
poisoning three members of her own family told the jury their deaths were a terrible accident. Erin Patterson is accused of killing her estranged
husband's parents and aunt after serving them lunch cooked with deadly mushrooms, this back in 2023.
She's also been charged with the attempted murder of her husband's uncle who survived. Patterson denies those charges. Estelle Griepink with Seven
News has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ESTELLE GRIEPINK, 7NEWS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Erin Patterson's murder trial delivering a new bombshell revelation. A jury has been told the
accused killer invited her in-laws for lunch to tell them she had cancer, a diagnosis the prosecution and defense agree was never true.
The guests, Don and Gail Patterson, Gail's sister, Heather Wilkinson, and her husband, Ian, were served individual beef Wellingtons containing
mushrooms with a side of mashed potatoes, green beans and gravy. While their meals were presented on large gray plates. Ms. Patterson ate from a
smaller, lighter-colored plate. Gail Patterson later noting to her son, Erin put her food on a different plate to us. I wondered why that was.
Don Patterson, Gail Patterson and Heather Wilkinson later died in hospital. Ian Wilkinson eventually recovered.
[18:20:00]
The jury was also told about the iNaturalist website, where users upload photos and locations of local flora and fauna. It's alleged that, after two
users posted about finding death cap mushrooms in the towns of Locke and Outtrim, Ms. Patterson's phone was tracked to the same location.
GRIEPINK (on camera): Erin Patterson has always maintained her innocence and has pleaded not guilty to all charges. Her defense told the jury, while
she may have foraged for mushrooms, she never sought out deadly ones.
GRIEPINK (voice-over): Estelle Griepink, 7News.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCIUTTO: Still ahead, Meta and Microsoft are just out with their earnings at a critical time for investors. How these two giants are holding up, even
as the U.S. economy is shrinking.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: Welcome back to "The Brief." Wall Street closed mostly higher today with investors looking past a weak quarter for the U.S. economy. The
S&P 500 rose for a seventh straight session. Wednesday also marks the last day of trading for April with the Dow falling more than 3 percent for the
month. It's the third straight monthly decline.
As you can see on the left, President Trump blamed Wall Street's slide on former President Biden posting today, this is Biden's stock market, not
Trump's. But on the right, you can see he claimed last year that it was his stock market when shares were soaring. Trump was asked about that during
today's cabinet meeting.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You frequently took credit for the stock market highs. You said it was a reflection of how well you were doing in the polls, and
then after you were elected, you said the stock market highs were a reflection of how well the transition's going and the American people's
confidence in your incoming administration.
Now, the stock market's not doing so well and you're saying that's the Biden stock market. Yet, you are the president. Can you explain that?
TRUMP: Yes. I'm not taking a credit or discredit for the stock market. I'm just saying that we inherited a mess.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Just to be clear here, Trump has had no problem taking credit for the market when it is doing well. Two of the biggest U.S. Tech companies
are just out now with their latest quarterly results. Microsoft and Meta currently targets of antitrust actions here in the U.S. are reporting
strong profits, for now. However, they remain deeply exposed to an economic slowdown.
[18:25:00]
Paul La Monica, a senior markets analysis writer at Barron's magazine joins me now. So, both companies reporting strong results. Their shares are up
and after hours trading as one would expect. How are they going up? How were rings going up, and are those expected to then soften with the effects
of tariffs?
PAUL R. LA MONICA, SENIOR MARKETS ANALYSIS WRITER, BARRON'S: Yes. Jim, it's going to be interesting to see what happens if, you know, tariffs
really, particularly on China, you know, are problematic for companies like Microsoft and Meta.
But the good news is that Microsoft and Meta, not only did they have earnings and sales that topped forecast, both companies also issued good
guidance for the second quarter, which is interesting. Meta saying that their, you know, revenue should be a little bit better than expected. Rival
Snapchat, which reported earnings last night, another social media company, they wouldn't give guidance because they're concerned about the economy
right now. But Meta had no problem giving guidance.
And Microsoft, on its earnings call just a little while ago, also issued an upbeat outlook. With Microsoft, clearly, despite all these economic
headwinds and worries about tariffs, companies are spending on cloud computing, they are spending on A.I., that's helping Meta as well. So, at
least these two tech giants are able to still do well despite many pressures. It'll be interesting to see whether or not Apple and Amazon are
as bullish when they report earnings after the close tomorrow.
SCIUTTO: No question. We'll be watching closely. Paul La Monica, always good to have you on. Thanks so much.
LA MONICA: Thank you.
SCIUTTO: We will have more on this hour's breaking news. The U.S. and Ukraine signing that long anticipated minerals deal. We're going to explain
what that means for the war in Ukraine, the relationship with the U.S. coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:30:00]
SCIUTTO: Welcome back to "The Brief." I'm Jim Sciutto. And here are more international headlines we are watching today.
The U.S. Treasury Department says documents for a mineral deal with Ukraine have been signed by the two nations. This despite some last-minute
disagreements. It also says the two countries have signed an agreement on a joint reconstruction investment fund.
The U.S. economy contracted during the first three months of this year. The GDP shrank 0.3 percent on an annual basis. That's the worst quarter since
2022. At today's cabinet meeting, President Trump tried to shift the blame to his predecessor, Joe Biden. Though numbers show, this is a reaction to
tariffs.
A top Pakistani official claims that India will strike his country soon, citing, quote, "credible intelligence," though he did not share evidence.
This follows last week's attack in Kashmir when militants killed 26 tourists, most of them Indian nationals. India's accused Pakistan of being
involved in the attack. Islamabad denies that.
Returning now to our top story. The U.S. Treasury Department says that the U.S. and Ukraine have signed documents on a minerals deal between the two
countries. Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent announced a joint U.S.-Ukraine reconstruction fund, adding quote, "The Trump administration is committed
to a peace process centered on a free, sovereign, and prosperous Ukraine."
Jeff Zeleny joins me now from the White House. And I wonder, Jeff, this has been a long time coming. A lot of pressure applied by the Trump
administration, and we should note the deal is different than the original iteration of this, which Ukrainians saw as exploitative. Is this a sign
that the relationship is improved between Trump and Zelenskyy and the U.S. and Ukraine?
JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF U.S. NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: I think there's no doubt about that, Jim. When you sort of look at the timeline of
really the last two months, it's been two months and a day or so since that disastrous meeting in the Oval Office here in Washington when a President
Zelenskyy was summarily tossed out by the Trump ring of advisers, the president, the vice president, et cetera.
But think back to that meeting in the Vatican, in St. Peter's Basilica, right before the funeral of Pope Francis. That moment we are told is when
the relations between the two presidents, Trump and Zelenskyy, got back on track. They talked only for 15 minutes or so. But certainly, this meeting
there will be part of this history when it is written of this deal being signed.
We are told there were some last-minute hiccups for the last several hours or so, some negotiating. One apparently was that the U.S. will not be able
to recoup some of the military aid that the U.S. has given to Ukraine over the years. But the aid, as you all know, Jim was never given as a loan or
with the expect of getting it back through minerals and through things to that effect, it was given as a way to stop Russia and as a way to hold the
line against -- to help to protect our allies in Europe.
So -- but the bottom line here is that this is certainly a high note of relations between U.S. and Ukraine, but it certainly does not -- it's only
one step toward the far bigger piece here, which is still a protracted disagreements of a ceasefire with Russia and Ukraine.
SCIUTTO: No question. And still a long wait for progress, particularly from the Russian side. Jeff Zeleny at the White House, thanks so much.
Now, to a disturbing story here in the U.S. about a high school lacrosse team at the center of a hazing scandal. Multiple students have now turned
themselves in over an incident that has shocked a community in Upstate New York. Omar Jimenez has the story.
OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jim, all 11 of these lacrosse players have turned themselves in, according to the district attorney,
suspected of being involved in an incident that goes way beyond hazing, as the local D.A. described it.
Now, before they turned themselves in, the D.A. essentially had given them 48 hours to turn themselves in and then they would face lesser misdemeanor
charges, or if they decided not to and were later caught, then they would face more serious felony charges.
Now, this all is over athletes on the team who allegedly tricked younger players into believing they were going to McDonald's after a game. Instead,
they were driven out to a more remote location in the area. At that point, accomplices, as the D.A. described them, emerged and jumped out of the
woods pretending to be kidnappers. They -- some of the students escaped, but at least one of the people that jumped out was wielding what appeared
to be a handgun or a knife, according to the D.A.'s office.
[18:35:00]
And while some were able to escape, as I mentioned, at least one wasn't and had a pillowcase thrown over their head. They were thrown into the trunk of
a car, driven to a location, and left for a period of time where he thought he was going to be abandoned, according to the District Attorney's office.
Now, this is an incident the D.A. has described as going way beyond hazing to this point, even though that player was eventually returned home.
Now, some of these students are juveniles, at least one is believed not to be according to the D.A. The non-juvenile students will be arraigned while
the juveniles will go straight to family court, where as we understand, they face misdemeanor charges of unlawful imprisonment. But also, as we
move forward, as you can imagine, the season for this lacrosse team has been canceled and the school district itself has launched its own
investigation. Jim.
SCIUTTO: Coming up, soft power. What is it exactly and why America and the age of America first could be losing it? I'm going to speak to the academic
who coined that term right after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: Welcome back. For today's in depth, we're looking at power, but not just military or economic power. My next guest coined the term for
another kind of power, soft power. It's a measure of a nation's strength and influence beyond force and dollar signs. In short, convincing other
nations to do what you want and they want as well. The power perhaps of persuasion, but also shared interests and values.
Joseph Nye is the former dean at the Harvard Kennedy School. Has served in multiple government positions, including chair of the National Intelligence
Council, former U.S. assistant secretary of defense. He argues there are three kinds of power, coercion, as a nation might do via force, payment via
the power of the purse, and a third, about attraction, and that's soft power.
The U.S. has traditionally attempted to grow its soft power, not just through popular culture, but by supporting democracy, human rights, the
rule of law. And while it has fallen short of those standards from Vietnam to the Iraq invasion to the 2008 financial crisis, Nye argues that
President Trump, with his America first agenda, is undermining American soft power further. It's not America first, he says, it's America alone.
Joining me now is Joseph Nye. Thanks so much for taking the time.
[18:40:00]
JOSEPH NYE JR., PROFESSOR, HARVARD UNIVERSITY AND FORMER DEAN, HARVARD KENNEDY SCHOOL: Nice to be with you.
SCIUTTO: You've argued that the secret for nations is to combine, in fact, hard and soft power. But you say Trump is in effect doing the opposite now.
Tell us how.
NYE JR.: Well, I'm afraid President Trump doesn't understand soft power. His -- if you think of power, sticks and carrots and honey, he leaves off
the honey. But if you could -- if you can have the three reinforce each other, you get a lot more done. You can also economize on carrots and
sticks if you have the attraction of honey.
So, when you cancel something like USAID humanitarian assistance or you silence the Voice of America, you deprive yourself of one of the major
instruments of power.
SCIUTTO: Trump seems to think that power and coercion works with everyone, whether ally or adversary. We've seen some pushback on that. I mean, for
instance, you look at the Canadian election recently. I wonder what does the recent historical evidence show?
NYE JR.: Well, if you look at cases like Canada, Trump with his coercive statements about Canada joining the U.S. managed to revive the Liberal
Party so that it came in first. Otherwise, you would've a Trump-like conservative leader in Canada. So, in that sense, his behavior was
counterproductive.
But if you take a longer-term perspective, think back on the Cold War. American nuclear deterrence and American troops in Europe were crucial. But
when the Berlin Wall went down, it didn't go down under a barrage of artillery, it went down under hammers and bulldozers wielded by people
whose minds has been changed by the voice of America and the BBC.
SCIUTTO: The rule of law has been a particular force for America's soft power for decades, and not just as a value but as something that attracts,
for instance, people doing business here, that they could count on the rule of law. But by targeting the rule of law here, and you've heard -- it's not
me saying that, you've heard sitting judges appointed by Republicans and Democrats saying that Trump is, for instance, undermining things such as
due process. What is the particular damage from that, from a soft power perspective?
NYE JR.: Well, it makes the U.S. less attractive. Let me give you a concrete example. The dollar has been going down lately as a result of
President Trump's care policies. But what's interesting is that in the past when there have been economic problems or threats, such as 2008, people
rushed into the dollar rather than away from it.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
NYE JR.: And that's because of deep and rich capital markets in the U.S. but also a rule of law. You are protected. You could get your money out.
Once you start questioning the rule of law, you're weakening the American dollars a reserve currency.
SCIUTTO: In your view, did Trump begin this decline in U.S. soft power or just accelerate it? Because I wonder if you look back at the last two
decades, the damage done by the Iraq invasion, for instance, or the 2008 financial crisis, which, of course, originated in this country. January
6th, his attempts to overturn the 2020 election. But does this go deeper and are the roots of this longer?
NYE JR.: Yes. Well, if one takes a longer historical perspective, American soft power has had its ups and downs during the Vietnam War era. The United
States government was wildly unpopular. People marching through the streets saying it was true, as you mentioned, the Iraq war era.
But then when Barack Obama was elected, you had a return -- what poll show is the attractiveness of the United States. It goes down again when
President Trump is elected the first time. It goes up somewhat when Biden is elected. And now, I think if we had the same polls, we'd see it going
down again. The key question is how long are these cycles?
SCIUTTO: Yes.
NYE JR.: And once you've destroyed trust, it's hard to recover it.
SCIUTTO: That was going to be my next question, because as folks around the world see that cycle, or perhaps the pendulum swing, does that make the
U.S. fundamentally untrustworthy as a trading partner, as an ally so that the next election, whichever way it goes, doesn't necessarily recover that
soft power lost?
[18:45:00]
NYE JR.: Well, I find this when I talk to friends in Europe or Asia, and I say, well, you know, that may be that the Democrats or a moderate
Republican will come in '28 election, and they say, yes, but what about '32? Can you promise me that we're not going to go back to this behavior
that we're seeing now? And you can't give them that promise.
SCIUTTO: Nope. And countries have to make long-term decisions, right, about their own interests and national security. Joseph Nye, I really do
appreciate you taking the time today.
NYE JR.: Nice to be with you, as always.
SCIUTTO: Well, coming up the impact of real-world trade drama. The CEO of IMAX explains how us and Chinese tariffs will affect the movie industry.
That's coming up.
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SCIUTTO: The CEO of IMAX is downplaying concerns over the impact of U.S.- China trade tensions on the movie industry, saying that Beijing is not expected to target big budget movies that IMAX in particular focuses on.
This after China did say it would restrict imports of Hollywood films in response to U.S. tariffs. IMAX operates in about 800 theaters across China.
Joining me now is the CEO of IMAX Rich Gelfond. Rich, thanks so much for taking the time.
RICHARD GELFOND, CEO, IMAX: Thanks for having me on today.
SCIUTTO: So, I wonder what the root of your confidence is, given that China quite publicly said, hey, this is a lever of power we have against
the U.S., restricting access to the Chinese -- to Chinese moviegoers for big films, which we know is a big source of income for movie makers.
GELFOND: So, first, let's get the facts straight. The Chinese never said that. It was two bloggers in China who suggested it. The Chinese government
responded by saying there might be moderate reductions. And in follow up calls with the studios and China and us, in China, they said it was
business as usual.
Since that happened, a number of movies have gotten, including "Lilo & Stitch" today, "How to Train Your Dragon" and "Thunderbolts" opens tonight
in China. So, it's something that came off the internet and I think a lot of people are being confused. And we and the studios have all been told
that it's business as usual. And as I've said, opening tonight, approved today, that's completely unfounded.
SCIUTTO: Why then? I'm curious, given that, of course Trump has hit China with quite significant terrorists, and I know there is discussion of
negotiations. But listen, I mean, the whole -- the ships just aren't sailing across the Pacific right now with goods anymore as a result from
China. So, why do you believe the movie industry is being spared?
[18:50:00]
GELFOND: Because there are no goods there. There's not goods, and the tariffs are on things coming into the U.S., not things being exported. And
the film industry is extremely important to the Chinese economy in terms of attracting people to go shopping and going to malls. So, if you think about
it, you know, tariffs on imported goods have nothing to do with issues about exporting movies, which aren't good into China.
It doesn't make any sense. But whether I intellectually can debate that or not, the truth is, it is completely business as usual. I mean, opening
tonight, getting in today.
SCIUTTO: I mean, I suppose the question is, would they use it as a means of retaliation? I wonder what the sentiment is among Chinese moviegoers
toward Hollywood films these days, given that the Chinese government has been quite public about criticizing the U.S. for these tariffs, for
sparking a trade war and doing its best to distinguish itself from the U.S., the -- in Asia and around the world?
GELFOND: Yes. we have a data point on that also. For Chinese New Year, there was a film called "Ne Zha 2," and that movie was the highest grossing
film ever in China. So, the consumers are going to the theaters. In terms of U.S. films, you know, this summer is an incredibly blockbuster summer.
It includes "Formula One," it includes "Mission Impossible." Later in the year, it includes "Avatar." So, there's no data yet about that.
But IMAX has over a hundred employees on the ground, and there's absolutely no evidence that people's entertainment habits have changed because of a
negotiation going on at very high levels and, you know, we have to see it hasn't happened.
But by the way, I should contextualize this. Also, the U.S. film business in China is quite small. And even for IMAX, U.S. -- all of China to IMAX is
about 25 percent of our profits and most of that is Chinese films. So, I mean, this is just like ghosts coming out of the closets. It's not a big
number. It's a rounding error.
SCIUTTO: Rich Gelfond, good to hear about your business there. Thanks so much for joining.
GELFOND: Thank you for having us.
SCIUTTO: All right. To sports now. A sixth goal Champions League thriller. Barcelona battled back to a draw against Inter Milan in the first leg of
the semifinals. CNN World Sports Don Riddell has the amazing highlights.
DON RIDDELL, CNN WORLD SPORT: Hey, Jim. It was an absolutely absorbing Champions League semi-final in Barcelona, which to be honest, had us on the
edge of our seats all night. Barca hosting Inter Milan in the first leg. And this one caught fire, after just 30 seconds, a sensational starters
enters Marcus Thuram backheeled his team into the lead.
Barca were rattled and they were rocked again in the 21st minute when Denzel Dumfries acrobatically volleyed into a 2-nil lead. And in that
moment, some were daring to think that this tie was already over Barca needed a spark, and their 17-year-old (INAUDIBLE) Lamine Yamal provided it.
Just three minutes later, he produced an incredible moment of magic cutting into his lead to 2-1.
Now, Yamal then hit the crossbar just moments later and Barca equalized seven minutes before half time when Raphinha squared it for Ferran Torres
to score. Barca seemed to be out of it. Now, they were right back in it.
In the second half though, more drama as Inter regained the lead with the header from Dumfries, his second goal of the night. But just a minute after
that, Barca scored again. And this was brilliant. Check out the dummy from Yamal and a rocket from Raphinha, crashing off the crossbar and in off the
back of Inter's goalie Yann Sommer.
And still there was more. A fourth goal for Inter was denied by the tightest of offside calls. And then, Yamal could have won it three minutes
from time with an audacious attempt that bounced off the crossbar. So, it finished in a breathless three all draw. Jim, it is definitely all to play
for in the second leg back in Milan next Tuesday. Back to you.
SCIUTTO: That was quite a game if you missed it. Today's "Good Grief," the NFL's Atlanta Falcons is paying dearly for a prank phone call. The victim
was quarterback Shedeur Sanders, a top prospect in the NFL draft. The 21- year-old son of one of the Falcon's coaches found Sanders' number on his dad's iPad. He then called Sanders to tell him falsely he'd be drafted by
the New Orleans Saints. Sanders was later picked by the Cleveland Browns, though in a far later round. He fell a long way in the draft.
[18:55:00]
The NFL has now fined the Falcons $250,000 over that prank. The coach has to pay a hundred thousand dollars. His son has apologized.
And now, to our "Good Brief." A motorist captured this footage of a runaway kangaroo, but this isn't Australia, it's in Alabama. The runaway named
Sheila caused chaos on the highway when she jumped into traffic. Two vehicles crashed actually, forcing part of the interstate to shut down.
Sheila, unharmed. She was later tranquilized and returned to her owner. I guess you can own kangaroos now.
Thanks so much for your company today. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington. You've been watching "The Brief." Please do stay with CNN.
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