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The Brief with Jim Sciutto
CNN International: India Launches Military Operations Against Pakistan; Pakistan Vows to Respond to India's Escalation. Aired 6-7p ET
Aired May 06, 2025 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[18:00:00]
COL. CEDRIC LEIGHTON (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: And so, if -- you know, if that bears out, then there is a chance that the Pakistanis are going to find themselves basically in a fairly equal footing, at least for the moment against the Indian Air Force. But the preponderance of numbers, when you look at what we call the Air Order of Battle is definitely on India's side. It has a larger military.
But this appears to be, for the moment, confined to an air war as opposed to an air and ground effort. So, that could also be significant and may indicate a desire to limit the type of retaliation that India is conducting at this point.
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: I want to ask you before we go, just an assessment of the military capabilities between India and Pakistan. India, of course, is a larger country. It also has a larger military than Pakistan does, although they are both nuclear arms -- armed. India's military, for instance, more than one and a half million personnel. Pakistan, a little less than half that. India has aircraft carriers, Pakistan does not, although both, of course do have nuclear weapons with India, perhaps having an edge.
Are they mismatched partners in any potential broader military conflict?
LEIGHTON: Yes, they definitely are. And historically, Jim, that has been the case. For the most part, India has maintained its superiority in terms of the actual weapons that it has and in terms, like you pointed out, the actual strength of their militaries in terms of the personnel.
The Indian Air Force, for example, is composed of both Russian-made and French-made assets like the Rafale fighter jet and Mirage fighter jets on the French-made side. They also have Russian-made jets, like the Su-30. Pakistanis have a mix. They have F-16s that they got from the United States. They have some Chinese weapons. They are very capable in terms of employing these weapons. And both sides have done some extensive training with the suppliers of their arms. So, they've you know, sent pilots to France and to Russia and the Indian side, and Pakistan has sent them to the United States and to China.
So, in many ways, there are significant capabilities on both sides, but in terms of sheer numbers and in terms of the tactics that they use and the sophistication of their respective plans, I would have to give the edge to the Indians because they have, you know, not only honed their experience, they've also modernized their forces considerably over the last few decades. And that, you know, will -- would mean that it would be a fairly tough road under most circumstances for the Pakistanis to actually impose significant damage on the Indian military capabilities.
SCIUTTO: Final question before we go, Cedric Leighton. In situations like this between armed rivals, when shots are fired, military to military communications matter, they're essential because they can often prevent misinterpretation of acts and allow for communications to de-escalate. Do India and Pakistan have such active channels?
LEIGHTON: They used to. And I think the answer is that, in this particular case, Jim, those channels are, at the very least, interrupted, if not outright broken. I don't believe that they're communicating military to military at this particular point in time, although they may be doing so at some point in the not-too-distant future, because I think both sides will find it in their interest to de-escalate if at all possible.
SCIUTTO: Cedric Layton, retired colonel, thanks so much. More now on our breaking news coverage, India has launched a major military operation. It says it targeted what it calls terrorist infrastructure inside, not just Pakistan-administered Kashmir, but also Pakistan itself. India says it struck nine sites that none of them were Pakistani military facilities.
Pakistan's prime minister says his country has a right to respond, what he calls an act of war. Just a short time ago, a military spokesperson, a Pakistani military spokesperson, told me the following on the air.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LT. GEN. AHMED SHARIF, PAKISTANI ARMY: Today and tonight, it was an unprovoked and blatant act of war. Once the Indian government on their instructions, the Indian Air Force, while they remain within the Indian airspace (INAUDIBLE) Pakistan's sovereignty and the using the standoff weapons, they have targeted civilian population across international border at two places that is Muridke and Bahawalpur. And at three places across line of control at Muzaffarabad, Kotli and Bagh. That is in Azad, Jhelum and Kashmir, which is a disputed territory.
[18:05:00]
They targeted the places of worships, the mosques, the voices of worships of Muslims. The Indian armed forces have murdered innocent civilians, which include women and children.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: I should note that Pakistani military spokesperson also told me that Pakistani forces shot down two Indian aircraft during this operation, Indian military aircraft during this operation. We have not yet heard an Indian response to that claim.
President Donald Trump commented on the Indian strikes just a short time ago, calling them, quote, "a shame." The U.S. State Department says it is closely monitoring developments. CNN has reached out to India for additional comment. Also, we have offered them an opportunity to speak to me on the air.
The Indian Administrative of Defense released a statement earlier saying, quote, "These steps come in the wake of the barbaric Pahalgam terrorist attack, in which 25 Indians and one Nepali citizen were murdered. Our actions have been focused, measured, and non-escalatory in nature. No Pakistani military facilities have been targeted. India has demonstrated considerable restraint." This statement goes on to say, in the selection of targets and the method of execution.
Aparna Pande is a research fellow at the Hudson Institute and joins me now. Aparna, this is, of course, a situation that many had feared and that is a retaliatory attack by India for the terror attacks, which India has blamed on Pakistan. And now, Pakistan, of course, vowing its own response, a crushing blow as Pakistani officials told my colleague Nic Robertson. So, we're -- we are in this tit for tat situation. What are the dangers right now?
APARNA PANDE, RESEARCH FELLOW, HUDSON INSTITUTE: Thanks, Jim. I mean, if you recall a few days ago when we spoke, I had said that a punitive attack is bound to happen. And India will try to make it non-escalatory. That's what the Indian military has tried to do, and that's what the press release says.
I heard the left hand general, the DG ISPR. I still think that. You know, sort of, it will be akin to 2019 where sort of India struck. At that time, India -- Indian fighter jets had entered the Pakistani air space. This time they did not, sort of -- you know, so Pakistan will respond. However, we need to wait and see how Pakistan will respond and whether it will do simply what it did in 2019, which is strike and come back. And then, the two sides can de-escalate or will then the Indian side respond again.
If the Pakistani strike is a small strike, the Indian sort of -- you know, the Indian side can sort of -- you know, does not need to escalate it any further. Each side will get one strike. And then, they can de-escalate.
We have seen this film play out before, Jim. It's happened periodically.
SCIUTTO: Sure.
PANDE: And I sort of -- unfortunately, I think it'll happen again and again as long as there are terror strikes inside India, which have any link to Pakistan.
SCIUTTO: Let me ask you this because our Nic Robertson noted on the air that these Indian strikes did not hit just inside Pakistan controlled Kashmir, but also inside Pakistan itself.
PANDE: Yes.
SCIUTTO: How significant is that and should we expect that Pakistan's response, which it is now vowing, might do the same in effect, and that is strike inside Indian controlled Kashmir and India itself?
PANDE: So, Jim, if you recall in 2019 also, India did not strike inside Pakistani-administered Kashmir. They struck in Bahawalpur was in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa. So, they actually crossed the Pakistani territory, struck in (INAUDIBLE) came back. So, it's not different at this time risk, sort of, you know, attacking outside of Pakistaniadministered Kashmir is not different.
Secondly, the sort of, you know, Muridke and Bahawalpur. Muridke is the headquarters of the Lashkar-e-Taiba. Bahawalpur is the headquarters of the Jaish-e-Mohammed. From the Indian side, they have attacked terror camps and they've attacked the headquarters of the two main terrorist groups that have targeted India and Indians. That is how the Indian side sees it. It is not targeting civilians. It is targeting terrorist headquarters, including of these two terrorist groups.
SCIUTTO: I understand that's the --
PANDE: -- Pakistanis --
SCIUTTO: -- that's the Indian view, but of course, as we heard on the air, you have the Pakistani military spokesperson saying that civilians, including women and children died. And that of course, is the danger in any exchange of fire like this between armed states, is that they will each see it differently, right, which is exactly what we're seeing play out here.
PANDE: Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely.
[18:10:00]
SCIUTTO: So, can India credibly claim that this was a non-escalatory attack?
PANDE: So, in sort of, you know, India says it has struck only the terrorist headquarters and the terror outfit, you know, the headquarters. And everybody knows that Muridke and Bahawalpur, where they have struck other headquarters of Lashkar-e-Taiba and Jaish-e-Mohammed.
Now, the even if India claims that and Pakistan knows it, Pakistan may still deny it. The DG ISPR made no mention of the terror groups whose locations were struck. He only spoke about women and children. So, Pakistan can still claim that these were not terrorist headquarters or terrorist outfits, which were which were targeted.
They did the same in 2016 when India had done a surgical strike. They had said there are no terror camps. Pakistan sort of, you know, official sort of statement is there are no terror camps inside Pakistan.
SCIUTTO: Well, listen, we can only hope for communication between the two sides to prevent this from getting hotter than it already is. Aparna Pande, research fellow at the Hudson Institute, I'm sure it's not the last time we talk about this, thanks so much for joining.
PANDE: Thank you.
SCIUTTO: Well, joining me now from New Delhi in India is the journalist Vedika Sud. Vedika, thanks so much for joining. I wonder if you could describe the politics of this attack inside India right now. Where is the Indian public as it stands with regard to Indian military action inside Pakistan? Do they welcome it? Do they support it?
VEDIKA SUD, JOURNALIST, NEW DELHI: Yes, Jim, when this attack took place about 15 days back inside Indian-administered Kashmir, ever since the Indian prime minister, his government, and the people of India have been talking about, quote/unquote, "revenge."
The Indian prime minister had come out himself to say that we will pursue these people to the ends of Earth. Only two days ago, the defense minister of India, Rajnath Singh, had come out and said, we know what you want, and under the leadership of the prime minister, you will get that. But he didn't expand further.
The public rhetoric has been very high on, you know, avenging the death, the brutal massacre of 26 tourists of which 25 were Indians. Now, if you remember in the year 2019, the Indian prime minister, under his leadership, had withdrawn a special status that Kashmir had enjoyed for decades. He took that back and had promised that he would bring peace back to the valley.
And then you had some attacks happening, militant attacks happening in Kashmir, but nothing as big as what you saw in April, in the third week of April, which is the massacre of these tourists. So, it was incumbent, in many ways, on the Indian prime minister, Narendra Modi, to take action and action that he has been promising over the last three weeks.
In terms of the Indian media, there have been many news channels who've come out asking for military action in terms of the public, the people's sentiment has been very supportive of the Indian government's promise to take that action, which we've seen in the dead of night tonight. This is something that was expected largely, and I say this purely because in 2016 and in 2019 when there were terror attacks in Indian-administered Kashmir, the Indian government did strike back, like Aparna said, within 11 and 13 days. And we are talking about the 15th day today, going into the 16th day.
SCIUTTO: Right.
SUD: So, yes, this was expected. The public sentiment has been with the Indian government to "avenge," quote/unquote, the deaths of the Indians, because even experts have said this, Jim, and this is something that I know as a journalist being on the ground for almost two decades, it's an unstated fact that you don't attack tourists in Kashmir because that does impact the local people also.
SCIUTTO: Understood. But I should note --
SUD: I mean, this was expected, Jim.
SCIUTTO: I know it was expected. The question is, what are the consequences here? As you know, Pakistan, the Pakistani government denied any involvement in those terror attacks or any support for and they say that while there were ties in the past between government agencies and some of these militant terrorist groups, that they no longer exist. Is that -- how is that claim that defense received in India? Do Indian officials -- does the Indian public find that credible?
[18:15:00]
SUD: Not at all. In fact, many would say it's an open secret that Pakistan, and I'm talking about the Indian sentiment purely here, and the Indian government's reaction or what they feel and what they stated in the past that it's an open secret that Pakistan harbors militants. So, this is something that India has believed for very long.
If you remember the Mumbai terror attacks, there was a dossier sent with evidence from India to the Pakistani government, but little or no action was taken because the Pakistani government came back saying that they do not harbor terrorists in Pakistan. So, this has been the claim by Pakistan over and over again, whichever attacks you talk about in India, where India has claim the hand of Pakistan sponsored terrorists, claim and the term that we usually use, Pakistan has usually come back with a complete denial.
So, this is something that India was expecting even after they put out a statement claiming that it was all because of Pakistan sponsoring terrorism that this attack took place in Srinagar on the 22nd of April.
And ever since we have been seeing a lot of meetings that the Indian prime minister has been holding here in India, back-to-back meetings, Jim, with the military heads, with the heads of government, with security heads over the last 14 days. He's been extremely busy. And that was one indication, if I may, that something was cooking, something was about to happen.
And given, like I said, that there were strikes in the past by the Indian military in Pakistan-administered Kashmir in 2016 and 2019, a military offensive, a military attack was expected. At what scale? It's something that we would obviously not be aware of because everything was decided behind closed doors. In terms of what the impact of this would be? Well, you've heard from the Pakistani side already, but India, of course, is going to be on high alert for weeks to come.
And also, what's interesting is on Wednesday, which is -- it's about 3:45 here in the morning in India, in New Delhi, but today, the Indian government had asked all states and federally administered territories in India to prepare for security drills.
SCIUTTO: Right.
SUD: This is something which is very rare as a directive. It's not happened in the last two to three decades that there has been a sweeping directive by the Indian government to hold security drills across India. So, that is what India will wake up to as well, along with this news of the military strikes by the Indian side in Pakistan and Pakistan-administered Kashmir. Jim.
SCIUTTO: Yes. And of course, the news, as we were told, by a Pakistani military spokesperson a short time ago that Pakistani forces shot down two Indian aircraft during this attack. We're waiting for an Indian government comment on that. Thanks to Vedika Sud who joined us there from New Delhi.
Joining us now, Tanvi Madan, senior fellow at the Brookings Institution. Thanks so much for joining. This is -- I've covered a number of these before and I'm sure you have witnessed similar exchanges like this before between India and Pakistan. 2019, 2016, going back to the 2000s.
And at points during these military engagements, there have been concerns about escalation right up to and including a nuclear exchange. We're not there yet. However, the concern, as always, the fear is how do you put a lid on a cycle of attacks and retaliatory attacks? Where do we stand now? And do you see Pakistan with the ability here to respond in kind, but not in such a way that it leads to a broader military conflict?
TANVI MADAN, SENIOR FELLOW, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: I think that is going to be the effort, Jim, on the part of a number of countries who are now going to intervene with Pakistan, calling them up, using various sources. You will see the Brits probably do this, from Washington, of course, perhaps calls from senior government officials here, as well as not just the Saudi Arabian officials, but the UAE potentially as well.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
MADAN: I would also suspect that China as well is going to be in close contact with Pakistan. But part of what we don't know is, in 2019, China was not as helpful as they've been in the past to de-escalate the situation. The effort will be on the part of everybody to try to say -- to try to either get Pakistan not to respond, but thinking that's going to be unlikely to at least get them to respond in a way that is not escalatory but is kind of in a way that satisfies the public but not, for example, strike Indian military targets.
SCIUTTO: Now, I mean, one could say that was already the situation with India, right, because the feeling in India, as we just heard from the New Delhi based journalist, was that India had to respond to these terrorist attacks that took place inside India-administered Kashmir.
[18:20:00]
Is -- India is describing its response as focused, measured, and non- escalatory in nature. However, it did attack both inside Pakistan controlled Kashmir and inside Pakistan itself. And I wonder, does that allow for a measured response from Pakistan?
MADAN: I think there will be a lot of pressure on the Pakistani establishment, particularly the military leadership to respond in kind. Having said that, even Pakistan does not want an all-out war, neither does India. At the end of the day, both countries have a lot to lose. Pakistan on its economic side, it's also facing strategic headwinds from a number of countries and adversaries. So, neither side wants this to go beyond the point.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
MADAN: One unknown in this is we have a very different Pakistani military chief, army chief this time than in 2019, General Bajwa was not considered as assertive as General Munir, the current army chief. And so, that's something to watch.
But I think this is why you will have a number of countries weighing in with Pakistan right now to ensure that it doesn't -- that reaction is measured to the extent possible.
SCIUTTO: And the question will be, does that encouragement, does it work? Tanvi Madan, from the Brookings Administration -- Brookings Institution, thanks so much for joining.
MADAN: Thanks, Jim.
SCIUTTO: I will have more on the Indian attacks and now a vow for a Pakistani response right after a short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: Welcome back to our breaking news coverage. India has launched a military operation against Pakistan. The latest attack sparked by last month's attack in Kashmir. Pakistan -- India controlled Kashmir where a gunman killed 26 people, 25 of them India nationals. The region has long been a focus of conflict between India and Pakistan. They have exchanged fire before in 2019, 2016, and years prior.
A short time ago, a spokesperson for the Pakistani military called India's attacks a blatant act of war, and said that, in the course of those Indian operations that Pakistan shot down two Indian aircraft. We're awaiting response from the Indian military as to that report.
[18:25:00]
Our Nic Robertson is live in Islamabad. And, Nic, I wonder from your post, if it is confirmed the two Indian aircraft went down in these strikes, the significance of that in your view?
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes. I was literally taking a call just there right before you coming to me, Jim, from a source, a very well-placed source in Pakistan. And he also confirmed that the two aircraft had been shot down. There are indications, and let's wait for further reporting, was his guidance. But indications there may even be a third Indian air force fighter jet shot down, but we're waiting for more details on. That's an early indication that may happen.
He was also stressing that phone call that had come from secretary of state now, national security adviser as well too, has Marco Rubio had called national security adviser here for a conversation. So, that really does indicate to us, we'd heard this from the State Department, but now hearing it from Pakistani officials, that the diplomacy is very, very active at this moment.
However, this source, like others I've spoken to, have indicated Pakistan was always going to retaliate if India attacked. That there was -- that was never in question. So, it's not clear that this diplomacy is coming in the middle of this military action, this military response by Pakistan.
Pakistan's, security forces have said that all their aircraft are safe and intact so far. They say that all the casualties and sites so far have been civilians, three people killed. We've seen images released by the military here, that shows that women and children have also been -- have also -- the women and children have also been injured, Jim.
So, the situation here is one where we're still getting information from the ground. Muzaffarabad, the capital of Pakistan controlled Kashmir, one of the places that was hit, we've heard that there are power outages. There are now massive explosions. People on the street, people incredibly worried and concerned about the situation.
One of those towns that was hit back, we were there just inside Pakistan- administered Kashmir, a small rural town, hard to see military significance there from what -- when we were there just a couple of days ago, that also the site of one of the attacks in Pakistan-administered Kashmir. But it's the attacks, the strikes inside Pakistan proper that are -- what is very likely going to raise the potential of the level of retaliatory response from Pakistan. Jim.
SCIUTTO: Our Nic Robertson there in Islamabad, Pakistan. And to his point about the possibility of a third Indian aircraft shot down. Just looking back at my notes here. Lieutenant General Ahmed Sharif Chari, when I spoke to him, spokesperson for the Pakistani military, did say, and I'm quoting here, "At least two aircraft of the Indian Air Force that had been downed." Again, that's coming from the Pakistani military. We continue to await a response from the Indian military, a response to that claim.
Joining me now is Ravi Agrawal he is the editor in chief at Foreign Policy Magazine. Ravi. it's good to have you. You have been witness to and have covered armed exchanges between India and Pakistan before, the most recent in 2019, 2016, and there are many others before that, in which some quite significant in which many soldiers have been killed on the ground in the fighting.
Can you assess for us the danger of this escalating beyond single military strikes by both India and Pakistan? India has carried out an attack. Pakistan is vowing a response. India claims its attack was measured and non-escalatory. Of course, that'll be up for Pakistan to interpret. But what is the potential here to keep this from developing to something broader?
RAVI AGRAWAL, EDITOR IN CHIEF, FOREIGN POLICY MAGAZINE: So, there is significant potential for this to escalate. But I will also say that there -- both sides, when they start making claims, that may or may not be true, by the way, that allows both sides to claim victory and to de-escalate. So, for example, with the current claim that Pakistan may have shot down two or maybe three Indian fighter jets, I would be very curious to see whether India admits to that.
And then remember, there are verification measures one can do from third- party sources. So, India, for example, uses some new Rafale jets that it bought from France. Of course, many of these fighter jets come with end user agreements. So, it is not difficult to verify, to figure out how to speak to the French and see if these fighter jets have actually been shot down. So, in the coming days, I think much more will become clear with that.
[18:30:00]
There is a history, I will say, of both sides claiming more damage on the other side than is actually real. We saw this most recently in 2019, when. India claimed to have shot down a Pakistani fighter jet, an F-16 actually. And of course, the DOD said they have an end user agreement with the Pakistanis and their fleet was intact. So, we will see a lot of claims in the next few days. And I don't think that's a bad thing if it allows both sides to de-escalate.
SCIUTTO: It's a good point. I mean, first of all, of course, information warfare is part of every war. And one might argue more so today than ever before, but also to your point, it could be an opportunity to claim to your own side or your own people that you have already struck back to some degree.
Tell me now about what we know of a diplomatic effort underway to prevent this from outside of India and Pakistan to prevent this from escalating further.
AGRAWAL: So, on several fronts, this is ongoing. I think it's crucial to note that the militaries on both sides do speak to each other. They have weekly calls. The director general of both militaries. They will be speaking to each other in the aftermath of this to, you know, try and -- again, between these sorts of claims and counterclaims, that will be one avenue of de-escalation.
Despite many of the diplomatic expulsions, both in New Delhi and Islamabad, both countries still do have diplomats on either side who will have some access to senior leaders and be able to lead some de-escalatory talks. And then, at the broader level here in New York at the United Nations and then other countries will be making calls to New Delhi and Islamabad.
The Chinese have offered. The United States certainly will put in a call. The Iranian foreign minister was in Pakistan earlier today may also go to India. Each of these leaders have a stake in trying to allow both sides to claim victories, to find other ways to de-escalate from here.
Again, the bigger part of this and some of the context here, Jim, is that for India, this was, on April 22nd, the terrorist attack that killed 26 people, it was the worst civilian attack in many, many years. And for Modi, in particular, this is a huge embarrassment. He was trying to bring back tourism to Indian-administered Kashmir. That was a setback.
And so, there's a huge public appetite in India to do something. And the question is, what was that something? Now, we know what it is, despite the fact, by the way, that India hasn't presented any proof so far that the militants who conducted this attack, that they had some connection to Pakistan or that they had crossed over from the border.
India's long said that there's history of this having happened and documented history with the Mumbai attacks and others. History is not proof for the present.
SCIUTTO: Right. Ravi Agrawal, thanks so much for providing that context. It's so necessary as we assess the facts on the ground in the midst of a military exchange. Editor in chief at Foreign Policy Magazine.
If you're just joining us, India has launched a military operation against Pakistan, inside Pakistan controlled Kashmir as well as inside Pakistan proper. It is calling this a focused, measured, and non-escalatory attack in response for a terror attack inside Pakistan controlled Kashmir that killed two dozen Indian nationals.
Pakistan is promising a crushing blow in response calls this Indian attack, a blatant act of war. And also, on our air a short time ago, claimed that it has shot down at least to Indian aircraft in the midst of this. We'll continue to provide updates to you. Please do stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:35:00]
SCIUTTO: Returning now to our breaking news. India says it has carried out military strikes on nine sites. Inside both Pakistan-administered Kashmir and Pakistan itself. Targeting, it says, terrorist infrastructure. It is calling these strikes measured and non-escalatory in nature. It says they are in response to last month's terror attack in India-administered Kashmir, which claimed the lives of 26 people, 25 of them Indian nationals. India accuses Pakistan of involvement in that attack. Pakistan has denied responsibility.
Pakistan's military is now vowing to respond to the Indian strikes. A Pakistan military spokesman told me a short time ago that during these strikes, Pakistan shot down at least two Indian Air Force aircraft. We have not yet received response to that claim from the Indian military.
The U.S. State Department says it is closely monitoring developments. This is a sizable, significant escalation between two powers, which are nuclear armed. When asked about the attacks a short time ago, President Trump called them, quote, "a shame."
Joining me now is Sajjan Gohel, the international security director at the Asia-Pacific Foundation. Thanks so much for joining.
SAJJAN GOHEL, INTERNATIONAL SECURITY DIRECTOR, ASIA-PACIFIC FOUNDATION: Good to be with you, Jim.
SCIUTTO: There have been a whole range, as you well know, of attacks and military exchanges between India and Pakistan, going back, well, many decades. I wonder, as you look at the circumstances surrounding this one, an Indian strike now, the terror attack that took place some two weeks ago and now Pakistan responding or vowing that it will respond, do you put this in the category of those exchanges that have remained limited like we saw in 2019, or does it have the ingredients at least of something bigger?
GOHEL: At the moment, Jim, you could say there are some similarities to the 2019 Balakot airstrike. We have to see how this actually escalates. The fact that India used standoff weapons implies that they didn't actually cross over into Pakistani territory. So, if Pakistan responds, does that mean they will do the same from the Pakistan side? Will they try to cross over?
We are seeing a situation spiral, but it wasn't surprising. We knew that India was going to respond to the terrorist attacks. It was just a question of when and not if.
SCIUTTO: When we look at Pakistan's possible response, of course, we won't know until it happens, but they are vowing a response which they described to my colleague Nic Robertson, as a crushing blow. And a military spokesperson described India's attack as unprovoked and a blatant attack -- blatant act, rather, of war. Can you provide some guidance as to how Pakistan might respond based on its past responses?
[18:40:00]
GOHEL: So, if you look at their response to the 2019 Balakot airstrike, Pakistani jets went into India, briefly fired at what seemed to be land that really didn't have any infrastructure, and then went back, some controversy because they use an F-16, which they're not meant to, based on the agreement they have with the United States.
Keep in mind also, Jim, that it's not just the military conflict that we are talking about. There's also the information conflict as well. The -- who controls the narrative, who is going to portray and frame a victory. It's very interesting that the director general of the ISPR spoke too so quickly, very keen to get out Pakistan's position because I think it's definitely had major consequences already within Pakistan, and the reputation of the military has definitely been damaged in Pakistan following these Indian airstrikes.
SCIUTTO: Can you describe the political mood as it were, perhaps political pressures on each side of the border? We had an Indian journalist on a short time ago who was describing broad public support for some sort of Indian military response to the terror attack, which killed some two dozen Indian nationals. Where does the Pakistani public stand?
GOHEL: It's a really important question that you raise, because you see the fact that the role of the military in both countries has varying influence. In India, the military is completely under the command and control of the Indian government, the civilian government. In Pakistan, the prime minister, Shehbaz Sharif, ultimately is going to have to cede authority to the military, especially to the Pakistan chief of army staff, Asim Munir, to take the lead. Because keep in mind, Pakistan may be a democracy in name, but it's very fragile.
So, there is going to be huge expectation that the military in Pakistan seem to respond in some ways because they've always portrayed themselves as the gatekeepers, the guardians of Pakistan. This attack definitely undermines that reputation.
SCIUTTO: No question. It's a -- well, it's a typical phenomenon, right, in exchanges like this, the military feels the need to respond, and of course, therein lies the danger of further escalation. Sajjan Gohel, thanks so much.
If you're just joining us, India's carried out multiple strikes inside Pakistan controlled Kashmir and Pakistan itself. Pakistan is now vowing a military response. I'll have more news just after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:45:00]
SCIUTTO: Welcome back. India has launched multiple military strikes inside Pakistan, both Pakistan controlled Kashmir and Pakistan itself. India says it targeted nine sites, at least three people have been killed. India describes those sites as terrorist infrastructure.
Pakistani military officials are telling us that civilians were killed in these attacks. They say that among the targets were a mosque. They also say that in the midst of the Indian strikes, Pakistani forces were able to shoot down at least two Indian aircraft. We are awaiting response from India to that claim.
We should note that this exchange of fire follows a terrorist attack which killed at least 26 people at a tourist site inside Indian controlled Kashmir. That attack India blamed on Pakistan, though Pakistan repeatedly denied any involvement. We should note there have been multiple military exchanges between India and Pakistan going back decades. The most recent in 2019.
Historically, both India and Pakistan have claimed Kashmir entirely since India and Pakistan were partitioned in 1947. Several domestic militant groups have demanded either independence for Kashmir or for it to become part entirely of Pakistan itself.
For more, joining me now is Richard Rossow. He's the chair on India and Emerging Asia Economics at the Center for Strategic and International Studies. Thanks so much for joining, Richard. And I wonder if you could describe how outside nations, neighboring nations and others, including the U.S. will be attempting to de-escalate this situation given that following these Indian strikes, we have Pakistan already vowing to respond in kind.
RICHARD ROSSOW, CHAIR, INDIA AND EMERGING ASIA ECONOMICS, CSIS: Well, the last couple of times, as you mentioned, in 2016, 2019, India suffered terror attacks and they chose to take the fight across the border, first in 2016 with the ground strike against camps in the part of Jammu and Kashmir that Pakistan occupies. And in 2019, actually in Pakistan itself.
And both times the United States was relatively comfortable with India striking out, but wanting to make sure that it didn't go too far from one direct --
SCIUTTO: Sorry, I lost you for a moment there. You were saying that the U.S. was comfortable with India responding as long as it did not go too far in 2019, the last time this happened.
OK. Please do stay with us. We're going to attempt to correct that audio issue there. I will have more on India's military operation against Pakistan. Pakistan's vow to respond right after a short break.
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[18:50:00]
SCIUTTO: Welcome back. India has carried out a military operation, multiple strikes against Pakistan. India says it targeted nine sites in Pakistan and Pakistan-administered Kashmir. It says that three people have been killed. According to a spokesperson for Pakistan's military, Pakistan is now vowing to respond what it calls a blatant act of war.
A Pakistan military spokesman also told me a short time ago that Pakistani forces shot down at least two Indian aircraft. We are still awaiting comment from the Indian military to that claim. These strikes are a quite concerning exchange of fire and it follows gunman killing 26 people at a tourist site inside Indian controlled Kashmir just last month. The vast majority of them were Indian nationals.
And this is just in to CNN, a blast heard by witnesses in the city of Srinagar, that's in Indian-administered Kashmir. This is taking place early Wednesday morning, witnesses tell CNN. The cause of the blast not yet known. Srinagar is the largest city in Indian-administered Kashmir.
Reports of the blast come after India launched its military operation against Pakistan. And of course, as I noted a short time ago, Pakistan vowed its military response to those attacks. We will share more details on what exactly that explosion is inside the Indian-administered portion of Kashmir as we get those details.
Joining me now is Vedika Sud. She joins me from New Delhi. And, Vedika, I wonder what you're hearing from Indian officials now following these strikes inside Pakistan and the latest reports of an explosion inside the India-administered part of the disputed region of Kashmir.
SUD: So, Jim, we are hearing from the Indian embassy in D.C., and I'm going to just read out some bits of a statement because there's some important points here made by the Indian government through the embassy there. It says, and I'm going to quote them here, "Terrorists killed 26 civilians in Jammu and Kashmir on April 22nd in a brutal and heinous attack. India has credible leads, they say technical inputs, testimony of the survivors and other evidence pointing towards the clear involvement of Pakistan based terrorists in this attack."
And it goes on to say, it was expected that Pakistan would take action against terrorists and the infrastructure that supports them, instead, during the fortnight that has gone by, Pakistan has indulged in denial and made allegations of fall flag operations against India. And these actions have been focused and precise. They were measured, responsible, and designed to be non-escalatory in nature.
No Pakistani civilian, economic, or military targets have been hit, which they had said even earlier. Only known terror camps were targeted. Shortly after the strikes, NSA of India has spoken with his U.S. counterpart and briefed him on the actions taken.
So, that's the latest we are hearing from the Indian side on the military action taken by India in Pakistan-administered Kashmir and in Pakistan. That's what we have for you in terms of the latest press release. Jim.
SCIUTTO: I want to ask you if you've heard any response from India regarding the claims now made by the Pakistani military spokesman who I interviewed a short time ago that two -- at least two, in fact, in his words, Pakistani -- rather Indian military aircraft were shot down. Has India denied these claims? Has it responded in any way that you've heard?
SUD: We've reached out to the Indian government on this, Jim, but there's been no comment for now. We are expecting a detailed press briefing. What's interesting is even in the last two times, in 2016 and 2019, what the operations that we are talking about, the military operations after the terrorist strikes in Indian-administered Kashmir in those years, India only came out with a detailed statement, with a detailed press conference only after the military offensive targeting those posts that we spoke about in Pakistan-administered Kashmir and Pakistan.
So, these statements will only now emerge, Jim. There will be a detailed press conference that we should wait for in some hours to come. It's only 4:30 here in the morning in New Delhi, but that's what it's been really. India has always come out with those detailed statements after the military offensive. Before that, they have strongly condemned the terror attacks that have taken place in 2016, 2019. And yet. again, we saw the same thing happen this time over -- on the 22nd of April when you had the Indian prime minister come out and condemn the attack and vow that there would be action from the Indian side.
[18:55:00]
In terms of taking down those aircraft, no, we haven't heard from the Indian government yet. We should hear from them in the hours to come. Ut India's really waking up to this news right now, Jim. In another two hours, you will have people watered across India, expecting some action from Pakistan. As we've heard from the Pakistani government and the military, they're vowing some action in the days to come. They said that they will strike when they think is right. So, there will be a lot of panic perhaps.
But at this time, also, the Indian prime minister and his government has directed the States and the Union territories, which are federally administered territories here in India, to carry out security drills in schools, in establishments all over India, which is expected today.
So, there will be nervousness, there will be some amount of panic, but we're expecting the Indian government to brief the media, to brief the people of India to tell them what exactly happened during the intervening night of Tuesday going onto Wednesday morning. More details will emerge.
But for now, India is saying, we've given a fortnight to Pakistan to take action against the perpetrators of that heinous attack against Indian tourists and a Nepali citizen. But there was no action taken by them. And this is what we've done. We have struck parts of Pakistan-administered Kashmir in Pakistan.
SCIUTTO: Understood. Vedika Sud, thanks so much. Joining us from New Delhi.
You have been watching continuing coverage of military's operation against Pakistan, as well as Pakistan's vow now to respond in kind. We are monitoring for any potential response.
I'm Jim Sciutto in New York. Please do stay with CNN in the coming hours as this situation, a concerning one, continues to unfold.
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