Return to Transcripts main page
The Brief with Jim Sciutto
Trump Attacks China On Trade; Appeals Court Pauses Ruling That Blocked Trump's Tariffs; Musk Steps Away From DOGE; Supreme Court Allows Trump To End Protections For Immigrants; Trump Increasing Tariffs On Steel To 50 Percent; Trump Accuses China Of Violating Trade Agreement; U.N. Warns Gaza Is "Hungriest Place On Earth"; Sean Combs' Former Assistant Testifies In Court. Aired 6-7p ET
Aired May 30, 2025 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[18:00:00]
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, and welcome to our viewers joining us from all around the world. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington. And you're watching
"The Brief."
Just ahead this hour, President Trump takes aim at China once again accusing it, of violating a trade agreement with the United States. Elon
Musk steps away from his formal government role, but President Trump promises his work at the Department of Government Efficiency, DOGE, goes
on. And compelling testimony in the ongoing trial of Sean Diddy Combs as a former assistant claims the rapper assaulted her. All that and plenty more
coming up.
We do begin though with another day of tariff turmoil here in Washington with Donald Trump leveling a fresh attack against China. The U.S. president
blasted Beijing, saying the Chinese have violated terms of their interim trade agreement. That deal was hammered out in Geneva early this month. It
lowered tariffs, for now, dramatically on both sides. All this as the battle over the broader Trump tariff policy continues to play out in U.S.
courts. It's a bumpy ride.
The president has not specified what exactly Beijing has done wrong. But The Wall Street Journal, CNN reporting as well, that this is about China
dragging its feet on lifting export controls on rare earths. President Trump said today he hopes to speak to the Chinese leader directly soon.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: They violated a big part of the agreement we've made. And I -- if you read that whole statement, I was very nice to
them. I helped them because they were in trouble with the stoppage of a massive amount of business. But I'm sure that I'll speak to President Xi
and hopefully, we'll work that out. But yes, that's a -- there's a violation of the agreement.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Trump has been promising that agreement with Xi for some time. White House officials tell CNN they are not considering raising tariffs
against Beijing again, at least not yet. But Bloomberg says the U.S. is considering widening its tech sanctions and controls against China.
White House Deputy Chief of Staff Stephen Miller spoke to CNN's Pamela Brown earlier today. He says the president's actions are part of a broader
effort to punish Beijing for weakening the U.S. economy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHEN MILLER, WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF: China has systematically ripped apart America's industrial base and supply chains, forcing America
over a time right into a position of economic subservience. President Trump alone, alone has had the courage to stand up and say that we are not going
to allow China to economically dominate the United States. We are not going to allow China to take from us the materials, the manufacturing capacity,
the industrial capacity that we need to protect America and to keep America safe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Derek Scissors joins me now. He's a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, also chief economist at the China Beige Book. Good to
have you on.
DEREK SCISSORS, SENIOR FELLOW, AMERICAN ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE: Thanks.
SCIUTTO: I wonder if we begin with China's perception of its own position here. Diplomats in the region tell me that China believes it could bear
more economic pain than the U.S. and therefore, will not give into pressure quickly. Do you have the same assessment?
SCISSORS: I think so. I think President Trump is probably right in saying there's a lot more pain in China than there is here. If we get into a major
trade conflict, but the Chinese will put up with it. They do a lot of damaging things to their own economy by themselves in the name of political
control, and they also see the U.S. as not looking very tough at the negotiating table.
Now, President Trump raised the tariffs and he took them back down. Now, we have American courts saying you can't even impose those tariffs. So,
they're feeling fairly confident at the moment.
SCIUTTO: I was going to ask you about that. Has this court ruling, though I know it's been stayed for now, fundamentally undermined Trump's leverage?
Do trading partners and not just China, but in Europe and elsewhere, read this as restricting Trump's ability to impose tariffs over time?
[18:05:00]
SCISSORS: I think, you know, it's obviously not certain what the courts will do. But I do think it has to reduce the probability that Trump can
impose those tariffs. And so, they're thinking, OK, before I thought it was like a 95 percent probability he could do this, and now I think it's 75.
And so, it's still more likely than not. But it gives them more -- it encourages them to think the U.S. doesn't have the cards it thought it had.
It still has a good hand, but not the great hand it used to think.
SCIUTTO: So, what are the U.S.'s strongest cards? China's -- or at least one of China's appears to be its leverage over rare earths. I know that
many U.S. companies that depend on those rare earths, for magnets, batteries, et cetera, have been messaging the Trump administration saying,
our businesses are in danger if these restrictions stay in place. Well, what is Trump's greatest leverage now?
SCISSORS: Well, I think he's got that part right. The leverage is that China sells a lot to the United States directly. It also sells a lot to the
United States indirectly through other countries. Those support a lot of Chinese jobs. So, if you really froze the American and Chinese trade
relationship, there'd be a much bigger unemployment consequence on the Chinese side than there would be here.
On the flip side, as you said, a lot of American companies don't seem to be prepared for this, even though you could have seen a U.S.-China trade war
coming a mile away, they're still saying, oh, we need those magnets, and you wonder, what have you been doing for the past six months?
SCIUTTO: Bigger picture. As you know, the Trump administration has been promising a number of trade deals just around the corner for some time, and
not just with China, but with European countries, et cetera. The fact is we haven't seen them. And now, there's greater, not less uncertainty about
what Trump's ability to impose tariffs will be, once it works its way -- those questions work their way through the courts. Does that further delay
these trade deals coming to fruition, that uncertainty?
SCISSORS: I don't know if it delays them, but it could weaken them further. I mean, we have just one deal, the U.S.-U.K. deal, which is not impressive.
And we could have had a bigger deal. The U.K. is our friend. I think countries that are not necessarily as friend of the United States, they're
not going to offer as much. And they're going to see if the Trump administration will say, well, I've got to deal with this country and I've
got to deal with my own courts, and they'll take a weaker deal.
So, we could probably make weak deals really quickly. I think that's the choice the Trump administration has now. If they want to go quickly,
they're going to get weak deals.
SCIUTTO: Derek Scissors, American Enterprise Institute, thanks so much for joining us.
SCISSORS: Thank you.
SCIUTTO: Well, amid those growing tariff uncertainties, President Trump today held an Oval Office send off for his friend Elon Musk on the tech
billionaire's last official day of work in the White House. The president praised Musk's controversial and so far underwhelming cost-cutting efforts
at the Department of Government deficiency, DOGE. Musk says he will continue to advise the president and that DOGE's work will also continue.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ELON MUSK, CEO, TESLA: The DOGE team will only grow stronger over time. The DOGE influence will only grow stronger. It's -- I'd liken it to sort of
Buddhism. It's like a way of life. So, it is permeating throughout the government. And I'm confident that over time we'll see a trillion dollars
of savings and a reduction in -- a trillion dollars of waste and fraud reduction.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: So, let's take a look at the facts. Musk once claimed that he could cut $2 trillion from the federal budget. As of today, DOGE has
claimed only $175 billion in estimated savings on its webpage. The actual amount is likely to be much lower. In fact, the CNN analysis has found that
less than half of those savings are verifiable or supported by documentation.
Zach Wolf has been looking at Musk's legacy at DOGE. And I wonder, first of all, is it true when Musk and Trump say, oh, I'll still be around, I'll
still be advising, or is this a fairly clean break with the administration.
ZACHARY WOLF, CNN SENIOR WRITER: I mean, I don't usually go back to the office after they throw me a going away party, but I'm also not Elon Musk.
So, we'll have to see what happens.
He is limited in what he can do because he was a special government employee. There was a timeline on how long he could work for the
administration without divesting himself from his companies. He definitely does not want to give -- you know, get rid of Tesla and SpaceX and all of
that. So, I think that this felt like the end.
But they have been very careful to say that he will still be there as an adviser. It'll be interesting to see what that actually means.
SCIUTTO: So, who's running DOGE now? Who's leading the way?
WOLF: There are people at DOGE. They created a -- it was an existing office created as part of Obamacare, and it's been staffed with people from both,
you know, allies of Musk, but also people from elsewhere in the government and people from his company. So -- and you know, it is, does carry on as an
entity. It's not going away just because Musk is going away.
[18:10:00]
SCIUTTO: What is the status of their cuts though? Are they continuing to cut? Are they continuing to take that, you know, proverbial chainsaw to the
U.S. budget or has that whole process slowed and run into other barriers?
WOLF: It has definitely slowed, as you see from their website. If you go, they're just posting fewer and fewer things. As people pour into this,
there's a lot of litigation going on. You know, just, can DOGE continue to do what it's been doing? It wasn't really created to take a hacksaw to the
government, it was created to be basically a tech support organization. So, can it continue to do this?
So, keep your eye on the courts but also, you know, what happens next will be -- it -- they won't have the power of Musk behind them. So, it's not
going to be quite as -- you know, quite as front and center, I think in the Trump administration.
SCIUTTO: You have been following this closely for some time. When they've made these cuts, they've often opened themselves up, as you've explained
previously, to new costs, as they have to rehire for other people for positions that they -- or people that they sent packing. Can you explain
that?
WOLF: Well, I mean, you know, firing nuclear security officials and then having to rehire them. There's a cost to that. If you get rid of all these
probationary workers, you know, tens of thousands of probationary workers, those are people that were hired. They weren't on probation for being bad,
they were just recent hires and they were hired for a reason, frequently because they have a special, you know, expertise or they have some
training.
So, we're going to have to go find those people again if and when we decide that those people need to be rehired, which has happened.
SCIUTTO: Yes. I mean, and the thing is the diversionary period can happen, not just when you begin employment, it could happen when you're changing
positions within the organization, et cetera. You often have this probationary period too as well.
WOLF: That's exactly right. And there's a cost also to, you know, much of the government is going to be fighting litigation related to DOGE. People
are, you know, doing these cuts instead of doing their normal jobs. There is a cost in all of those things.
SCIUTTO: Do you believe that Trump himself has run out of patience with an interest in DOGE to some degree? There have been some reporting that he
knew Musk was not particularly popular with voters in either party, and that those images of the chainsaw were not particularly popular either. I
mean, has Trump himself lost his interest in this?
WOLF: I don't want to get inside Trump's mind, but I think you can definitely see that Musk has said some things about how DOGE took lumps or
took the blame for some cuts that were going to happen that had nothing to do with DOGE. So, it was almost like they put them out there as a buffer to
do some things. And now. when Musk leaves, you know, it sort of takes away that pillow.
SCIUTTO: Zach Wolf, thanks so much for covering this for us.
WOLF: Thank you.
SCIUTTO: Well, now, to a major victory for Trump on the issue of immigration. The Supreme Court has ruled that the Trump administration can
revoke temporary protections that have allowed some 500,000 migrants to remain in the U.S. Our Paula Reed has the details.
PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Jim, this is a significant win for the Trump administration in its efforts to roll back
temporary protections for certain groups of migrants so that they can proceed with removals. And here, we're talking about around half a million
people from Cuba, Haiti, Nicaragua, and Venezuela.
And the Trump administration was looking at a Biden era program that granted some of these migrants, what is called parole, they're not parole
in the usual sense, but it means that they had temporary protection to live and work here in the United States.
And on day one of his administration, President Trump signaled that he wanted to end this program. And look, there's no question that he had the
authority to do that. The Department of Homeland Security can certainly rescind these protections. The question was whether they could do it in one
fell swoop or if they had to evaluate each migrant on a case-by-case basis.
And here, for the second time in the past month, the Supreme Court siding with the administration. The last case had to do with protections for
hundreds of thousands of Venezuelan migrants. So, this, again, a big win, the second one in just a month, for the Trump administration in its effort
to remove temporary protections for certain groups of migrants and proceed with the removals. And this will be what they will follow while these cases
continue to work their way through the courts over the next few months and possibly even years. Jim.
SCIUTTO: Months and years, that wasn't the pace he was talking about initially. Well, now to Ukraine, which is looking to create a so-called
drone wall. This ahead of Russia's planned summer offensive. Ukraine is trying to boost its drone arsenal to defend key corridors along the
frontlines.
Russia has been ramping up its attacks this month, striking overnight less than three miles this time from Romania. We should remind you, that's a
member of NATO and of the European Union.
Angela Stent is a former U.S. National Intelligence Officer now at Brookings, and she joins me live. Thanks so much, Angela.
[18:15:00]
ANGELA STENT, SENIOR FELLOW, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: Good to be here.
SCIUTTO: So, big picture if I can. Is Trump, as he talks about running out of patients with Putin, is he more likely to exert further sanctions
pressure on Russia or just to walk away from the peace talks? Because we've also heard that kind of signaling coming from the White House that he's
just losing patience.
STENT: So, I think both of those are possibly true. He has certainly been tweeting negative things about Vladimir Putin, but he hasn't done anything.
And we also hear from time to time, from him and other officials, that he may just wash his hands of all of this.
So, on Monday, we have the Ukrainians and Russians meeting again for some more talks. The Ukrainians have already presented their memorandum of their
proposal for a ceasefire. The Russians have not presented theirs and said they won't do it until they meet with the Ukrainians. So, we have to wait
and see now whether this is just another delaying tactic from Vladimir Putin or whether something more might happen, and I would think that might
influence the president's decisions.
And we've also had Senators Graham and Blumenthal in Kyiv today. They have a very tough sanctions bill prepared. And Senator Graham has now said that
maybe they really will go ahead and vote on it. It's veto proof next week. But we also have to see whether that will happen, depending, I think, on
what happens on these talks.
SCIUTTO: That would take a fair amount of backbone from Senate Republicans that, let's be frank, we haven't seen when they've differed with President
Trump to push that, particularly when Trump and Rubio and others have been saying that, well, no sanctions now, because that may, you know, undermine
the possibility of talks. Do you see Senate Republicans standing up and saying, no, we're going to vote this through?
STENT: I'm skeptical about it, frankly. But I think it's interesting at least that we did have the senators in Kyiv saying that they would act on
it next week. But I am skeptical about it, certainly.
SCIUTTO: As you know, President Trump, he loves to talk about business deals and he has raised this possibility as something of a carrot to
Russia, of big deals that the U.S. can do with Russia if they were to come to some sort of normalization and perhaps peace in Ukraine. But you've
written that the U.S. business community actually is not particularly excited about returning to the Russian market. Can you tell us why?
STENT: Yes. Because first of all, their own experiences there. And then, since this war began, the Russian state has nationalized a lot of these
U.S. businesses when they left after the war began. And Putin and others have made it clear it's going to be very hard for them to get them back.
So, McDonald's and Coca-Cola have said they're definitely not going back because they -- their -- the shops and everything that they were
expropriated, they belong to Russians now. I think the Boeing Corporation is very skeptical about going back. Major oil and gas companies would be
very skeptical about going back.
So, I think there may be business in this for the Trump family. And President Putin has already said that -- or integrated that there could be
another Trump Tower, but I think this is unrealistic given the history of U.S.-Russian economic relations and the reality of what's happening in
Russia today.
SCIUTTO: If Putin knows, and presumably he does, that U.S. businesses are not particularly excited about returning to Russia, would that then take
away the incentive for the Kremlin to make such a deal with Trump, you know, on the idea that, oh, the business will be flowing?
STENT: I think the main point for Putin is to get the sanctions lifted. That's one of the incentives on why he's been negotiating like this with
President Trump. And he's also had his chief negotiator with Mr. Witkoff, Kirill Dmitriev, the head of the Sovereign Wealth Fund, promise these great
vistas and opportunities for investment. But I think that's also whether they really believe this is going to happen is not quite clear.
But what they do want is they want those sanctions lifted and they want a normalization of U.S.-Russian relations and a kind of return to where they
were before the war broke out.
SCIUTTO: Angela Stent, thanks so much for sharing your views.
Well, still ahead, President Trump says, China, as we noted, is violating its interim trade agreement with the U.S. China was quick to respond. We're
going to be live in Beijing with the latest right after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:20:00]
SCIUTTO: Well, this is just in to CNN, President Trump has just announced he will increase tariffs on steel imports into the United States to 50
percent that doubles the current tariff of 25 percent. He announced this as he holds a rally in Pennsylvania to celebrate a deal for Japan's Nippon
Steel steal to invest in U.S. Steel, which by the way is a deal Trump initially publicly opposed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: For generations the name United States deal was synonymous with greatness, and now, it will again be synonymous with greatness. That's what
it's going to be. The best and strongest deal on Earth will forever be made in America and made in Pennsylvania.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: He initially vowed to block Nippon Steel's bid by the iconic U.S. Steel maker. He changed course, however. Announced an agreement just last
week for what he has described now as a partnership.
U.S. stocks finished Friday's session mostly lower. President Trump's new trade threat against China, once again, on settling investors along with
new evidence that tariff uncertainty is leading U.S. consumers to pull back on their own spending. President Trump on Friday accused China violating
the two country's preliminary trade agreement. The White House says both sides are talking about setting up a phone call between Trump and Xi to
help try to get those talks back on track.
Marc Stewart has been following the Chinese reaction from Beijing. He joins us now. You've heard President Trump blame China for this saying that they
aren't abiding by their interim agreement. How is China responding?
MARC STEWART, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jim, China is sticking to message. It has not directly addressed these remarks from Truth Social from
President Trump directly. But in the past has said that there are no winners in a trade war and that protectionism is harmful. I mean, China
very much remaining on script with this.
As far as this potential phone call that you mentioned between President Trump and Xi Jinping, never say never. But we have heard about calls like
this in the past concerning TikTok, concerning trade, and still nothing has come to fruition. In fact, to be honest with you, Xi Jinping would rather
avoid calls like this, preferring to have these talks take place at more of a diplomatic level as opposed to a leader-leader high-level exchange.
But look, thresholds have been changing. The one thing to make very clear is that China, if this call were to take place, China is going to be very
concerned about the optics of it. It does not want to appear as if it is caving into the U.S., answering to the U.S. It wants to look very strong
certainly on its home turf, but also, Jim, on the global stage.
[18:25:00]
SCIUTTO: In my experience, Marc, and I wonder if you feel the same way, with China, typically, the principles, the leaders, the presidents, they
speak when the deal is already done when -- at lower-level negotiations, they've hammered out the hard parts of the deal. It doesn't happen at the
beginning. So, I wonder what is the likelihood that call happens before the hard issues are actually worked out?
STEWART: I mean, I think that -- I think for that reason, I think that it is unlikely to see a call like this, because it's not in the Chinese
playbook. And we have seen Secretary Scott Bessent meet with his high-level Chinese counterparts. So, I think that there is a feeling that needs to
perhaps exhaust itself more before a talk like this -- a discussion like this takes place.
And let's also make it clear, China is prepared for the long game. It knew Trump. It knew Trump 2.0 was certainly in the works. It expanded its trade
partners with other nations, depending, you know, less on the United States, but it also has the serious economic issues to deal with at home,
like high unemployment and the fallout from a real estate market.
So, while it is keen to perhaps get a deal together with the United States so it can deal with these domestic concerns, I think for Chinese
leadership, it's very much following the script, as you mentioned, Jim, by having these lower-level discussions and then having the phone call once
there's something to celebrate.
SCIUTTO: Marc Stewart in Beijing, thanks so much for joining. Coming up, I'm going to speak with a Washington Post columnist about the war in Gaza,
the Israeli military actions there, the suffering of civilians, and why he now believes it meets the definition of genocide. Our conversation next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:30:00]
SCIUTTO: Welcome back to "The Brief." I'm Jim Sciutto. And here are more international headlines we're watching today.
President Trump accuses China violating the terms of an interim trade agreement which had lowered tariffs on both nations' imports. White House
officials tell CNN China has not lifted restrictions on rare earth exports to the U.S. Sources also tell us that Washington and Beijing are now
discussing setting up a phone call between President Trump and Xi.
President Trump just announced he will increase tariffs on steel imports into the United States to 50 percent. That doubles the current rate of 25
percent. Yet another tariff change.
Wildfires in Western Canada, forcing thousands of people to evacuate their homes. Two Canadian provinces that declared states of emergency. As many of
those fires as you see there now, burning out of control, just immense. The smoke could affect air quality in parts of the Northern U.S. this coming
weekend.
PBS is suing President Trump and other administration officials over the White House efforts to cut funding for the public broadcaster. The
president signed an executive order earlier this month thinking to end PBS's funding, calling the broadcaster biased. PBS alleges the order
violates the First Amendment, the Constitution, and what's known as the Administrative Procedure Act.
In the Mid-East, Hamas has now given a counter proposal to the latest U.S. ceasefire and hostage release plan for Gaza. It's a plan that the Trump
administration says Israel has accepted already. The U.N.'s humanitarian office says Gaza is the only place in the world where the entire population
is now at risk of famine, calling it, quote, "the hungriest place on Earth." It says Israel is still blocking all but a trickle of aid with
almost no ready to eat food reaching the people in need.
Palestinians have been crowding a handful of new aid distribution sites run by a U.S.-Israeli-backed foundation. Yet, again, today, we've seen people
running as they try to get that aid from what appeared to be gunfire.
My next guest believes that Israel's actions in Gaza now meet the definition of genocide. Shadi Hamid says in his most recent column for The
Washington Post quote, "What is happening in Gaza goes beyond ethnic cleansing and crosses into genocide." We should note the Israeli government
has strongly denied similar accusations from others.
But what exactly is genocide? How's it defined? The legal definition by the United Nations states the following. First, there has to be intent to
destroy in whole or in part a national ethnic, racial, or religious group. Then there has to be at least one of five actions, that includes killing
members of that group or seriously harming them, making their living conditions so dangerous that they cannot survive, or stopping them from
having children, or taking them children away.
Shadi Hamid joins me now. Thanks so much for taking the time, Shadi. And I know you've been written on this extensively. You know, the U.N. definition
as we just laid out there from the U.N. Convention on genocide. Tell us what's the basis for your argument that U.S. -- that the Israel is now
committing genocide and Gaza.
SHADI HAMID, COLUMNIST THE WASHINGTON POST AND AUTHOR, "THE PROBLEM OF DEMOCRACY": Yes. Hi, Jim. Thanks for having me. So, I think that what
Israel was doing met the legal definition of genocide before. I don't think it's just a matter that all of a sudden now the boxes have been checked.
But I do think that we've reached a kind of peak of destruction. And now, you have Israeli leaders openly acknowledging intent. They're saying that
they want to make Gaza uninhabitable.
So, prime -- the prime minister, Netanyahu, said just a couple weeks ago, quote, "We are destroying more and more homes. They have nowhere to return
to," unquote. And so, you just have this kind of this honesty, this brutal honesty where they're saying that they want to destroy Gaza and Gazans and
expel them from the land on which they live. And I think when you have that kind of intent, you get one step closer.
I was -- I generally was uncomfortable using the word genocide until recently because I thought, well, let's not get into terminology debates,
and that distracts from what Israel is actually doing. It's bad enough as it is regardless of what we call it. But I think at this point, calling
things by their name matters because words have meaning and words should be used to describe reality.
[18:35:00]
And I think that when we use the word genocide, we convey something that is very unique in history. There have been relatively few recognized genocides
in the past 100 years. So, I think that we have to realize that what's happening in Gaza is at that kind of level, and that can help us focus
attention, focus the mind on the seriousness of what we're looking at.
SCIUTTO: You note in your piece that in past instances of situations that are now recognized as genocides, whether that be the Srebrenica massacre or
Rwanda, that initially there was resistance to using those terms. Now, you cite intent. And typically, intent has been one of the hardest things to
prove when it comes to alleging genocide here.
As you know, Israeli officials will say, listen, we're targeting Hamas, and Hamas is hiding behind civilians in Gaza, which there is evidence they are.
So, is that a defense in your view? Is that a reasonable or credible defense?
HAMID: What Hamas has done doesn't absolve Israel of responsibility. I think you often hear this from Israeli officials. They'll always say, but
Hamas, as if Israel itself has no agency or moral responsibility. Israel makes choices about how to conduct this war. And I'll just return to what
Israeli officials themselves have said. I mean, Finance Minister Smotrich said that the goal is to leave Gaza, quote, "totally destroyed."
So, the fact that you have senior officials saying this, these aren't infringed characters, they're in the cabinet and they want to erase Gaza as
we know it. And that's very different than targeting Hamas in a very precise way. And it's also worth noting that just to -- you know, we talked
about how one of the acts of genocide is killing large members of a particular group, and what's also changed I think in recent months is we're
kind of revising the estimates higher.
There was a study in the Lancet that suggests that the Gaza death toll could be as high as 109,000. Their lower bound is 77,000. That's well over
what the Hamas run Gaza health ministry says, which is around 53,000.
So, we're talk -- if it's really 109,000 or close to that, that represents 5 percent of Gaza's pre-war population. That would be analogous to 17
million Americans, if we want to make that comparison. These are just remarkable numbers that bogle the mind. If this was about targeting Hamas,
why do you have to -- you know, it just -- it's a scale of devastation, which I haven't seen.
SCIUTTO: Let me ask you this because, as you know, there are Israeli officials and citizens and professors who have quite markedly criticized
the progress of the war. There are Ehud Olmert, former prime minister himself, has accused the Israeli government of quote, "a war of
Annihilation." The Israeli American historian, Omer Bartov wrote in November, 2023, this was in The New York Times, as a historian of genocide,
I believe that there is no proof that genocide is now taking place in Gaza, although it's very likely that war crimes, even crimes against humanity are
happening. Then in the last year in The Guardian, he changed. He wrote, I no longer believe that. By the time I traveled to Israel, I had become
convinced that at least since the attack by the IDF on Rafah on May 6, 2024, it was no longer possible to deny that Israel was engaged in
systematic war, crimes against humanity, and genocidal actions.
I wonder what is the influence of hearing that same judgment that you're making here, the impact from some small number, but some Israelis
themselves?
HAMID: Yes, it makes a big difference, and I cite that in my piece. Omer Bartov, Schmuel Letterman, Rob Siegel. These are some of the most renowned
Israeli scholars of the Holocaust and genocide studies. And now, the fact that a growing number of them are saying this is a genocide, these are --
and as you said, Omer Bartov initially was resistant, and the same thing with Schmuel Letterman. These are people who wanted to see proof.
And so, I think we have to take that seriously that there is this kind of growing consensus among genocide scholars that something unusually terrible
is going on here. And so, I do think that it is a sign of the times. More and more people are willing to call things by what they are because they
can't deny it any longer. And once you're faced with something like this day in and day out, where about 90 percent of residential units in Gaza
have been destroyed, again, it shows that there's nothing proportionate or targeted or precise about this, it's about making life miserable for
Palestinians and killing large numbers of them and trying to persuade them to leave. But of course, they have nowhere to go.
[18:40:00]
SCIUTTO: As you know, some of Israel's allies in Europe have expanded their public criticism of the conduct of the war in Gaza, but to date the U.S.
has not gone there. It's been muted in its own criticism, at least this administration has. Will Israel move without specifically U.S. pressure?
HAMID: I mean, the sad reality is that without more U.S. pressure, Israel will keep on doing what it's doing. The U.S. is the primary military
patron, the closest ally. Europe matters, but in it's -- in a much more secondary way. And that's why we really have to wait and see, will the
Trump administration and will Trump himself say at some point, enough is enough to Benjamin Netanyahu and put that pressure that we need to see?
There have been some signs that Trump has lost patience with Netanyahu, that he's angry at him, and that there's growing daylight between the two.
Now, does that daylight actually mean pressure? That is the open question now, and that's really what I think is all of this is hanging on what --
how we answer that question, what we see from Trump.
SCIUTTO: Yes. And of course, the armed shipments continue, armed sales continue to go to Israel. Shadi Hamid -- '
HAMID: Yes.
SCIUTTO: -- appreciate the conversation. Thanks so much for joining.
HAMID: Thanks for having me, Jim.
SCIUTTO: Coming up next, another day of compelling sometimes shocking testimony in the trial of Sean. Diddy Combs. Find out what one of the
rapper's former assistants testified on the stand.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: U.S. President Donald Trump says he would look at the facts and consider a potential pardon for Sean Diddy comb should he be convicted.
This follows another compelling, sometimes shocking day of testimony at the rapper's criminal trial. A former assistant was cross-examined by the
defense today. She has said that Combs physically and sexually assaulted her.
Joining me now is attorney and legal affairs commentator Areva Martin. First, Areva, I just want to ask you about Trump's comments today. Given,
listen, you know, the trial is still ongoing. We don't know what the result of the trial will be. Should the president be commenting on that trial
while it's ongoing?
AREVA MARTIN, ATTORNEY AND LEGAL AFFAIRS COMMENTATOR AND CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Jim, such highly inappropriate comments by the president. As you
said, the trial is on ongoing, the prosecution hasn't even wrapped its case up. The defense has not put on a case. The jury has not weighed in.
[18:45:00]
Essentially, this comment suggests that the president -- the White House, the administration should be judge and jury in the case, substituting its
own opinion for that of the jury, and that undermines our judicial system in a very significant way. So, very shocking comments, very inappropriate
comments by this president.
SCIUTTO: So, tell me -- let's go back into the courtroom for a moment. Tell us where the trial stands in your view, particularly after today's
testimony, because, of course, there's a pattern here that the prosecution is trying to build. How does it stand up so far?
MARTIN: So, what we've seen, Jim, this week in particular, are ex- employees, individuals that work for Sean Combs come forth on behalf of the prosecution and tell their own stories of, one, witnessing the violence
against Cassie Ventura. So, corroborating the case that the prosecution has made as it relates to Ventura, and in the case of Mia, of the former
assistant to Combs, telling her own story of both physical violence that she suffered as well as sexual assault.
So, this is a part of the prosecution, sex trafficking and RICO case is to put forth evidence that shows that Cassie Ventura was coerced into engaging
in sexual acts with commercial sex workers and to have witnesses come forward and confirm that these were acts that she did not want to engage
in, that she felt threatened. She was threatened with violence and she was threatened with blackmail of these videotapes being released that could
potentially substantially harm her music career.
SCIUTTO: It's been quite a trial to witness. Areva Martin, thanks so much for walking us through it.
MARTIN: Thank you, Jim.
SCIUTTO: Authorities have declared states of emergency in parts of Central and Western Canada as wildfires there continue to rage and intensify. Those
massive fires have first forced large-scale evacuations, including about 17,000 people from Manitoba province. Goodness. Look at those images.
Officials say it's the largest evacuation that region has seen in recent memory. The smoke has now begun traveling south across the border to the
U.S. Midwest. already affecting air quality in parts of the U.S. Meteorologist Allison Chinchar has more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ALLISON CHINCHAR, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Yes. So, there's almost 200 active wildfires across Canada. It spreads over several different provinces that
you could see here. We're talking Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and numerous others. The threat level has made it all the way to level five. That is the
highest you can possibly get in Canada.
The wildfires themselves have spread to burning over 24,000 square miles. Just for comparison, that is the equivalent of the size of Lithuania or
even the State of Delaware. So, you're talking a very large space that has burned.
But it's not just the flames that's bringing concern, it's also the smoke. Now, here's a look at the satellite radar. See this darker gray color right
through here, this is actually the smoke that's coming down into the U.S. from those fires. The brighter white color over here, this is cloud cover,
but it's very likely that there is some smoke embedded underneath those clouds as well. And so, that's why there's cause for concern in states like
Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota for a lot of that smoke. And it's quite thick smoke at times coming back down through here.
So, here's a look at the current air quality. Anywhere you see that orange or the bright red color, that is where the smoke is incredibly dense. Now,
as we go through the rest of the afternoon and evening, a cold front from Canada is going to spread a lot of that smoke farther south, even as far
south as a state like Missouri, likely to see some pretty thick smoke at times.
Then as we transition into Saturday, we still see the smoke, but it begins to shift a little bit farther west. So, now, the concern really becomes
states more like North and South Dakota, but still also impacting areas of Iowa as well as Minnesota.
The concern here is for any of those -- like the sensitive groups with the unhealthy air quality that's out there, they're asking that you not really
be outside for prolonged periods of time to limit any impacts from that smoke. And that's why you have these air quality alerts in effect for
states like Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota. And very likely that we could see additional states added as we go into the weekend when we start
to see a lot of that smoke begin to shift a little bit farther off to the west.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCIUTTO: Our Allison Chinchar there. Well, coming up, sports, PSG and Inter Milan about to battle out for the European Cup. Our preview of the
Champions League final, that's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[18:50:00]
SCIUTTO: Paris Saint-Germain and Inter Milan set to face off for one of the most prestigious prizes in the world. PSG is seeking their -- seeking to
win their first Champions League trophy. Inter reached the final back in 2023 but lost to Manchester City that time. Patrick Snell joins me now.
How's it looking?
PATRICK SNELL, CNN WORLD SPORT: Hi, Jim. Yes, and I think Inter are definitely motivated by that loss to Manchester City a couple of seasons
back. There's no question about that. We're just hours away now from Saturday's massively anticipated final of the old European cup, what's now
known as the Champions League.
Munich's Allianz Arena will host the showpiece match. Both teams have been making final preparations ahead of what -- you know, let's be honest, Jim,
for these players, many of them, at least, if not most of them, it's going to be the biggest match of their career. PSG looking to be crowned champs
of Europe for the very first time, as you mentioned. If they do it, it's going to be absolutely life changing for PSG as a club, their fans, their
players. Just incredible. Inter going for a fourth title in terms of their history. Let's hear now from both managers. The Inter Milan head coach's
Simone Inzaghi.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SIMONE INZAGHI, INTER MILAN MANAGER (through translator): All I can say is that this team, this group, in these four years of my life, have given so
much, winning a lot, losing sometimes, as often happens in football, but in my opinion, we have always put everything we had on the field.
LUIS ENRIQUE, PARIS SAINT-GERMAIN MANAGER (through translator): My biggest motivation is to make history in Paris. That means bringing incredible joy
to a country, a city, a club that has such high standards, and being the first to do so as something exceptional, which is what motivates me the
most.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SNELL: I do want to pick up there on Luis Enrique, Jim, because so many in the sport will be wishing him to do well, given what he went through back
in 2019. Really sad times for not just his family, but for the whole global community as well. His nine-year-old daughter passing away in 2019 after a
courageous battle with cancer. And after that tragedy, Enrique taking a short break away from the sport. And certainly, for Luis and his family,
his whole memory, really -- memory of his daughter serving as a true inspiration, one which he hopes will inspire his team to go all the way and
seal a famous victory. Back to you.
SCIUTTO: Goodness. What a sad part of that story. Thank you, Patrick Snell.
Well, Taylor Swift has just won a year's long battle. The pop star announced she now owns her entire music catalogue, including music videos,
album art, concert films and songs unreleased. Swift's former record label had sold the masters of her first six albums about six years ago, and she
had been fighting to get them back.
Swift announced the news on her website today saying she was able to buy back her music outright with no strings attached. Following the success of
her record-breaking Eras Tour.
And after a nail-biting evening at the Scripps National Spelling Bee on Thursday, there is now a new champion. Now, this was Faizan Zaki's fourth
time competing in the contest. He was the runner up last year. The 13-year- old from Allen, Texas won the award with the word eclaircissement, which means a cleaning up of something obscure, that according to Miriam
Webster's dictionary. It's a tough one. Sure. I could not spell that.
[18:55:00]
The infamous, an anonymous British Street artist named Banksy has revealed an intriguing new artwork. It depicts the shadow of a metal street pole
forming the silhouette of a lighthouse. The accompanying text reads, I want to be what you saw in me. The image was unveiled on Banky's Instagram
account. It's not clear yet where that work is located. Some of Banksy's art pieces sell for millions of dollars.
Before we go, we do need to clarify a story we ran at the end of last night's show and telling the story of the Chinese paraglider. We aired a
piece of video that we now know included some A.I. generated material. CNN has a policy against using A.I. images without clearly labeling it.
Unfortunately, a few seconds mistakenly made it too air with that story.
Well, thanks so much for your company today. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington. You've been watching "The Brief." Please do stay with CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:00:00]
END
