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The Brief with Jim Sciutto

Prosecutor To Seek Death Penalty For Kirk Shooting Suspect; Trump Arrives In The U.K. For State Visit; Israel Begins Ground Offensive To Occupy Gaza City; Politics And Policy In Focus As Fed Meeting Begins; Hollywood Legend Robert Redford Dies At 89. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired September 16, 2025 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[18:00:35]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, and welcome to our viewers, joining us from all around the world. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington, and

you're watching THE BRIEF.

Just ahead this hour, the Charlie Kirk shooting suspect appears in court charged with aggravated murder and other charges. Prosecutors, who say

Tyler Robinson confessed to his roommate in a series of text messages, are now pushing for the death penalty.

For the first time, an independent U.N. inquiry concludes that Israel has committed genocide against Palestinians in Gaza. The U.S. State Department

says that conclusion is, quote, "the height of hypocrisy."

President Trump and the first lady touched down in the U.K. for the start of a state visit there.

And from "All the President's Men" to "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid," Hollywood pays tribute to the actor, director and environmentalist Robert

Redford, who has died at the age of 89.

We begin, though, with Tyler Robinson, the suspect in the Charlie Kirk assassination case, making his first court appearance in a virtual hearing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Calling Case 251403576. State of Utah versus Tyler James Robinson. Could you state your name?

TYLER JAMES ROBINSON, ACCUSED OF SHOOTING CHARLIE KIRK: Tyler James Robinson.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: The only words we heard from him today. Prosecutors filed charges against the 22-year-old, including aggravated murder, obstruction of

justice and witness tampering. The prosecutors are now seeking, as we said, the death penalty.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEFF GRAY, UTAH COUNTY ATTORNEY: I am filing a notice of intent to seek the death penalty. I do not take this decision lightly and it is a decision I

have made independently as county attorney, based solely on the available evidence and circumstances and nature of the crime.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Kirk, a conservative activist and Donald Trump supporter, was shot and killed while speaking at Utah Valley University just last week.

Our Danny Freeman is live in Provo, Utah.

And Danny, seven charges from aggravated murder to commission of a violent offense in the presence of a child, and yet, I think we could say a stone

faced Robinson as he heard those charges.

DANNY FREEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I think that's right, Jim. Especially since so many of us were able to see that virtual hearing live

as it happened. Tyler Robinson, the 22-year-old suspect accused of murdering Charlie Kirk. He was, as you said, stone faced. He did not even

react when the judge said that this would likely be a death penalty case here.

You noted that the Utah county attorney mentioned that he was filing that notice of intent to seek the death penalty in this case, and, Jim, you

noted that of the multiple charges, of course, the most serious one, that aggravated murder, with the victim targeting enhancement, which the county

attorney specified is specifically for targeting Kirk regarding political expression.

Robinson was wearing what appeared to be a safety smock, which is fairly typical in high profile cases like this. But again, as you noted, his

reaction in court just pales in comparison to the incredible amount of information that we got earlier in the day from prosecutors. That really

sheds light on what was going through Robinson's mind, really, after the shooting and as he was in the process of turning himself in.

And I just want to highlight a few things. One of the most fascinating parts of these court documents that we obtained today were the messages

that Robinson exchanged with his roommate, his roommate a romantic partner who's a male transitioning to be a female, the communication started just

after the shooting, it appeared, where Robinson said to his roommate, texted the roommate, hey, turn over your keyboard. There's a note under

there.

The note read, "I had the opportunity to take out Charlie Kirk, and I'm going to take it." And then there was what essentially amounted to an

admission in these texts that went forward on, I want you to put this up on the screen. Robinson wrote to his roommate, to be honest, quote, "I had

hoped to keep this secret until I died of old age. I'm sorry to involve you."

[18:05:02]

The roommate wrote back, "You weren't the one who did it, right?" And Robinson wrote back, "I am. I'm sorry." The roommate seemed to be

incredibly surprised, writing back, "I thought they caught the person." Robinson responded, "No. They grabbed some crazy old dude."

Now, Jim, the text continued, and finally, Robinson's roommate asked the question, why? Why did you do this? Robinson responded, "Why did I do it?"

Roommate said, "Yes," and Robinson responded, "I had enough of his hatred. Some hate can't be negotiated out."

So again, the text messages truly stunning. A stunning revelation to get from those court documents. Many other revelations as well, including that

Robinson's mother was the one who, when law enforcement put the images of Robinson out there to the public, Robinson's mother felt that she

recognized her son in those images, conferred with the father. They tried to get in touch with Robinson. He said, oh, I'm sick. I've been sick for a

few days.

But they still had their suspicions. They asked, can you show us the gun, the hunting rifle that we gifted you? It was apparently Robinson's

grandfather's gun. And then Robinson did not respond. The parents ultimately were able to convince Robinson not to take his own life, to come

back home, and to ultimately turn himself in.

Again, so many stunning revelations in these court documents, in that update from the Utah county attorney earlier today. The court now assigning

Robinson an attorney. That was one of the things that happened in this hearing that just wrapped up. And the next court date, Jim, scheduled for

September 29th.

Still a lot of questions, but a tremendous amount of new information that sheds light on what may have been going on prior to and after the killing

of Charlie Kirk.

SCIUTTO: Just briefly, Danny, the safety smock, as you called it, that Robinson was wearing, is that for his safety from himself or from others?

FREEMAN: That's a good question, Jim. Frankly, we're trying to get a little bit of clarity on that. It's referred to usually as a safety smock, perhaps

an anti-suicide smock. But we do see smocks like that, protective vests almost like that in these high profile cases. I believe Brian Kohberger,

the suspect in the Idaho killings, he pleaded guilty, I should say. And then also, I believe Luigi Mangione at one point wore a smock like that as

well. But it is a common thing that we see again in high profile cases like this -- Jim.

SCIUTTO: Danny Freeman in Provo, thank you so much.

For more on next steps, criminal defense attorney Amy Lee Copeland joins me. She's a former federal prosecutor.

Amy, good to -- good to have you here. You know, reading through those text messages, it appears to be an admission. I wonder, listening to the

evidence we heard revealed today, what's most compelling from your point of view?

AMY LEE COPELAND, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, several things, Jim. First of all, the admission in the text message, if it is in fact an

admission by Mr. Robinson is pretty damning. If he says, yes, it was me, that's not good. The other thing that is pretty telling is the romantic

relationship. He was in a relationship with his roommate who was transitioning to a woman. The timing of the shot, apparently, was when Mr.

Kirk was discussing whether transgender people were involved at a higher rate in mass casualties and mass shootings, and that was the time of the

shooting.

So I think that's going to be fairly strong circumstantial evidence, too. But there were the videos of him. There were, you know, I'm sure tons of

social media videos. I'm sure many people videotaped the incident. And the investigation has probably been trying to capture everyone's recordings of

that time.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Certainly a lot of video evidence I imagine that will end up in that trial. As you heard there, we now know that prosecutors intend to

seek the death penalty. What factors determine whether this case will or is likely to proceed to a capital sentence? Of course, there are many steps

along the way. And, of course, the most important one is conviction.

COPELAND: That's right, Jim. What is interesting, Utah has an aggravated murder statute. It is murder with aggravators as the name suggests. The

aggravator here is probably that there were other people's lives put in danger. The shot was from a distance of about 140 yards away, I've read,

and so I think that that's what the state is relying on to say this is a death penalty eligible case.

They've given notice, too, Mr. Robinson that they are going to seek the death penalty. And they noted the target of Mr. Kirk based on his

expression of speech. So that will be going forward. Mr. Robinson will be appointed an attorney. Not any attorney can represent somebody on a death

penalty case. They're looking for someone with death penalty experience so that he has the best appointed representation possible.

SCIUTTO: Given the state of the world now, I've got another act of violence, and it seems to some degree politically motivated violence that,

of course, the case of Luigi Mangione. Today we learned that the judge in New York has dismissed the terror related charge against him, saying,

quote, "There was no indication in the statute that a murder committed for ideological reasons fits within the definition of terrorism."

[18:10:11]

What are your thoughts? Do you think that's the right finding there? Of course, Mangione faces many other charges.

COPELAND: I do, Jim. When you look at the enactment of the law, New York enacted the terrorism law shortly after 9/11. The judge talked about how

this was heinous, sure, but it targeted a single individual. It didn't seek to inspire terrorism or, you know, target an entire group of people. New

York appellate courts have declined to extend this terrorism statute to gain cases in the past.

So that was not a surprise to me. Eight state counts remain, but there is a federal count that is death penalty eligible against Mr. Mangione. That

still is proceeding.

SCIUTTO: Before we go here, we're going to have two quite high profile cases involving just horrible acts of public violence, murder, one in the

streets of New York, one in front of the eyes of students on a college campus in Utah. Is there a way that courts handle these cases that perhaps

they could handle better?

I wonder, separate from the legal issues, right, it's the public spectacle issues here because a sad fact of some of these cases, it seems, is that

some of the killers relish that attention.

COPELAND: So my experience is mostly in federal courts, Jim. So let me talk a little bit about that because I have been involved in high profile cases

before. Federal judges especially, are very concerned with keeping the temperature down. There are plenty of security precautions. There's the

press zone where people can speak. There is just extra security. There is a sense that the defendant is not to play to the audience.

This is a court proceeding. I'm not sure what Utah has publicized, if they televise court proceedings. So that also kind of goes into it. I mean, the

public does have a right to access, but sometimes that does encourage behavior by the defendants, whether it's mugging for the cameras or, you

know, making faces that convey how they feel. But courts do face challenges in these cases, and they do their best to control them.

SCIUTTO: Amy Lee Copeland, we're certainly going to have a lot of cases to watch going forward these coming months. Thanks so much for joining.

COPELAND: Thank you, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Well, President Donald Trump has arrived in the U.K. for a second state visit. Air Force One landed just outside of London about two hours

ago. You see the president and the first lady exiting Air Force One there. They will travel to Windsor Castle on Wednesday, where they will be greeted

by the royal family.

During his trip, the president also expected to hold meetings on trade, the war in Ukraine, and other security issues, with Prime Minister Keir Starmer

amid a turbulent time not just in U.S. politics but U.K. politics. Political demonstrations planned during Trump's visit as well.

Joining us live from Windsor is Max Foster.

And it was noticed by some, including my colleagues here at CNN, that there was no red carpet for the president's arrival. Is that deliberate? Is that

significant at all?

MAX FOSTER, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT: I haven't managed to follow it up, but I was told there was a carpet lining welcome, and I was told he was

in it. They were all there, but no carpet. So I wonder what happened there. It was interesting.

They are throwing everything at this visit. I've been saying all the time it's the biggest red carpet I've ever seen rolled out for any of head of

state ever, and then of course, there's no red carpet at the airport when he arrives. But I think that was some sort of mistake. There should have

been one there. I mean, what you'll see tomorrow when Trump arrives here at Windsor Castle, the scale of what they're putting on here is unprecedented

on many levels.

So three companies of military in the Guard of Honor, as opposed to one, a much bigger cavalry, more gun salutes, more everything. It's bigger and

better than the last one. And that's deliberate. They are trying to enamor Donald Trump as much as possible, knowing that he enjoys all this pomp and

ceremony. They're just throwing everything they can at it. So, yes, well noted for not seeing the red carpet, but that must have surely have been a

mistake. So I think they would have wanted one there.

SCIUTTO: Fair enough. So we'll get other kinds of red carpet treatment tomorrow. I wonder, does the pomp and circumstance fit the state of the

U.S.-U.K. relationship? Where does it stand as Trump meets the U.K. leader?

FOSTER: Well, I think, I mean, you'd know better than me how Trump views the U.K. relationship, but everything that I see at this end is all very

positive towards the monarchy and indeed the government, because he's very different in terms of political views from Keir Starmer. But he seems to

have a very good relationship with him, but also with the king and Prince William.

[18:15:02]

We saw that when he met Prince William in October in Paris, an extraordinary meeting of minds there really for two very different

characters as well. What I will say is that there are demonstrations planned in London, and we saw one tonight. There's a theme to some of those

demonstrations, and that is this image of Jeffrey Epstein with Donald Trump. It was projected onto the palace here tonight.

A huge poster was rolled out, on one of the fields earlier of the same image. And we're expecting to see more images again in the protest

tomorrow. I think he's very unpopular according to all the polls in the U.K. But as far as the government and the royal family are concerned,

they're looking at this as a big strategic moment, a historic moment to reaffirm Britain's alliance with the United States. So they are effectively

keeping Trump away from all of that.

So he'll be traveling by helicopter between Windsor Castle, Winfield House, where he's staying tonight, the U.S. ambassador's residence. But then on to

Chequers, which is the prime minister's country residence, on Thursday. He won't see any of that. They're trying to hide him from all of that as much

as possible.

SCIUTTO: Max Foster, we'll see if they're successful. Thanks so much for joining.

Straight ahead, the head of the U.N. says Israel is not open to, quote, "serious negotiation for a ceasefire." This after a troubling new report

condemns Israel's ongoing actions in Gaza.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: An independent U.N. inquiry has concluded that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza. The 72-page report finds that Israel committed

four of the five genocidal acts listed in the Geneva Convention. The killing of Palestinians in Gaza, causing them serious bodily and mental

harm, deliberately inflicting conditions to bring about their physical destruction, and imposing measures intended to prevent births.

My colleague Isa Soares spoke with the chair of the commission, which carried out the inquiry.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NAVI PILLAY, CHAIR, U.N. COMMISSION OF INQUIRY ON TRAVEL AND PALESTINIAN TERRITORIES: We don't have any better mechanisms than the institutions we

have now. So when the United Nations Human Rights Council passed resolutions giving us a mandate to these -- to do these investigations, we

do it and we do a thorough job so that one day there will be justice, there will be people who will have to answer for these crimes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[18:20:02]

SCIUTTO: Nearly 65,000 Palestinians have been killed in Gaza since October 7th. This according to the Palestinian Health Ministry. Israel has

attempted to cast doubt on those numbers and vehemently denies accusations of genocide. The U.S. State Department has also ruled out that conclusion.

All of this comes as the IDF begins its ground incursion into Gaza City. A further expanding military operations in Gaza. Before we show you Jeremy

Diamond's report, I'm going to warn you, as I often do with stories from Gaza, many of the images you're about to see are disturbing.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The invasion of Gaza City has begun, at least according to the Israeli military. Israel

says its ground forces are moving toward the heart of the city, with some 20,000 troops committed to conquering and occupying it. But as smoke rises

over its skyline, CNN has yet to independently confirm that ground forces have pushed into the city center.

From above the Israeli military did deliver a terrifying night of bombardment, sending rescue crews into bombed out buildings. Outside Al-

Shifa Hospital, one child after the next is hurried into the emergency room. All are bloodied and covered in soot. Through tears and obvious signs

of shock, doctors and nurses work to treat and comfort these young victims.

There is no comforting those in the hospital's courtyard, where relatives arrive to discover their loved ones are among the 82 killed overnight.

"My daughter, check her. My daughter, she's killed," this mother cries out in disbelief. "Someone check her."

As the military escalates its assault, it says some 350,000 people have fled Gaza City. Israel wants to displace all of the city's population of

about one million people, drawing accusations of ethnic cleansing. Israel says it is trying to move civilians out of harm's way as it takes on a

Hamas force of just 2,000 to 3,000 fighters, according to an Israeli military official.

But not everyone has the means or the ability to leave, including this pregnant woman.

"I don't want anything. All I want is to go south to escape death," she says. "We're all injured and ill. It's difficult for us to move."

For the first time, an independent United Nations commission concluding in a 72-page report that Israel is committing genocide against Palestinians in

Gaza, a conclusion Israel categorically rejects.

CHRIS SIDOTI, MEMBER, U.N. COMMISSION OF INQUIRY ON TRAVEL AND PALESTINIAN TERRITORIES: This is not a minor matter. The extremity of what is happening

is such that we could come to no other reasonable inference than genocidal purpose.

DIAMOND: The global outcry, blunted by diplomatic cover from the United States, which is now backing Israel's invasion of Gaza City and casting

doubt on prospects of a negotiated ceasefire.

MARCO RUBIO, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, as you saw, the Israelis have begun to take operations there. So we think we have a very short window of

time in which a deal could happen.

DIAMOND: That rapidly closing window driving hostage families into the streets, fearing their loved ones will be caught in this latest Israeli

assault. And government doesn't seem to be listening.

Jeremy Diamond, CNN, Jerusalem.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: Joining me now Dirk Moses, genocide scholar and professor at the City College of New York.

Thanks so much, Dirk, for joining.

DIRK MOSES, INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS PROFESSOR, CITY COLLEGE OF NEW YORK: Good to be with you.

SCIUTTO: So this is the first time a U.N. commission has made a determination of genocide in Gaza. It's not the first organization to make

that accusation. Amnesty International has. Human Rights Watch has, as I'm sure you're aware. I wonder, in your view, does having a U.N. commission do

so add impact here?

MOSES: It definitely does. And what's remarkable or at least stands out about this report is the very conventional legalistic approach it's taken

as if they are themselves the judges at the ICJ. So they're sticking to the legal rulebook. They're not broadening the definition of genocide, which

has been leveled at the Amnesty International report, for example.

So they're making it extremely conventional in order to, in a sense, nail this down as a legal assessment, although I should hasten to add that it's

not a legal tribunal. They're not making a legal determination here in any official sense. And their standard of proof is slightly lower than a formal

court.

[18:25:02]

They're talking about, you know, it's reasonable to conclude, that kind of language rather than beyond reasonable doubt. That said, the level of

detail in the report makes it difficult to conclude that it's not one that the ICJ judges would use when they come to the merits case in a couple of

years.

SCIUTTO: The standard Israeli response when accused of genocide or accused really of wrongful death in Gaza, they will say there are Hamas fighters in

Gaza. They might say with specific targets that, yes, we struck a hospital, but Hamas was hiding under it or there -- or had used that hospital before

or was hiding under the apartment complex that they destroyed, et cetera. Legally, and from a perspective of genocide, does that defense hold?

MOSES: Well. we have to look at the broader picture here. I mean, we have evidence of preemption. That is the destruction of buildings which have

already been cleared of fighters and occupied by IDF soldiers so that they can't be used by Hamas in the future. And this is clearly disproportionate

and illegal.

And each one of those may or may not be a war crime, but cumulatively, and this is what the reports are getting at, we see a pattern of conduct in

which all kinds of civilian buildings, hospitals, schools, mosques, universities, et cetera, are being systematically destroyed, not in a

haphazard way through the conduct of war, but in a more planned way, it seems. And that they infer from that the intention to create conditions

which make the reproduction of Palestinian life impossible. And in that sense, genocidal.

But that said, I mean, what you're getting at, and it's a very important point, is a distinction which is very common in -- among lawyers

unfortunately, but also in public opinion, which is between the war on the one side, you know, military conflict on the one side, which is not

illegal, and genocide on the other, which is illegal. It's a criminal intention per se, and so Israel advocates will say we're engaging in a war

of self-defense against an implacable enemy, which seeks our destruction. And on the other side, you'll say that, you'll hear that, you know, Israel

is engaged in a in a war of destruction against Palestinians.

What I'm seeing is that, and what I'm seeing in the report as well, and this is something new, is they're saying the war against Hamas is a vehicle

also for the war against the Palestinian population. They're one and the same thing. And it's precisely because we're dealing with a dense urban

context here where it's virtually impossible and maybe is in fact impossible to distinguish civilians and combatants.

SCIUTTO: Does it bolster the case of the U.N. here, or previous groups that have alleged genocide, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, that

there are members of the Israeli government who stated publicly that they would like to expel the Palestinian people?

MOSES: Well, these kinds of statements I mentioned in the report, and they refer to previous reports by U.N. officials and also these NGOs you

mentioned, which have cataloged, you know, quite a few of these kind of statements, and it should be recalled that the Republic of South Africa

suit in the International Court of Justice also refers to these statements as evidence of genocidal intent.

Now, these things are quite complex in the end because, you know, evidence of intent to expel a population may or may not be evidence of genocidal

intent, which is an attempt to destroy, which is slightly different from an intent to expel. However, it can be taken as evidence of an intent to

destroy in certain circumstances, and that's what's being alleged here.

SCIUTTO: Professor Dirk Moses, thanks so much for giving us so much detail.

MOSES: OK. Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Still ahead, politics and policy are in focus as the Fed kicks off a highly consequential meeting in Washington. Why who is attending that

meeting could be just as important as the outcome of the discussions themselves.

Later in the show, we will remember Robert Redford, the Oscar-winning actor and director who passed away today at the age of 89. More on his career on

and off screen. Just ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:32:54]

SCIUTTO: Welcome back to THE BRIEF. I'm Jim Sciutto, and here are the international headlines we're watching today.

The suspect in the Charlie Kirk assassination made his first court appearance just a short while ago. 22-year-old Tyler Robinson remained

mostly silent during the virtual hearing, appeared to show no emotion when a Utah judge said prosecutors will seek the death penalty. Robinson's

formal charges include aggravated murder, obstruction of justice, and witness tampering. Prosecutors also read out text messages he allegedly

sent to his partner, seeming to confess to the murder.

The Senate Judiciary Committee grilled FBI director Kash Patel in Washington today. He had several shouting matches with Democratic senators.

They pressed him on the Epstein files, recent firings at the bureau, and the Trump MAGA movement's influence at the FBI. Patel also came under

criticism for social media posts about the investigation into Kirk's murder.

A Russian drone strike hit a university in Eastern Ukraine today.

Listen to that moment. The moment of the attack on Kharkiv's National Pharmaceutical University caught in just a shocking video. Those attacks

are sadly daily events. In Russia, though, the roof set on fire, at least four people were injured in this one, according to the city's mayor. This

comes as President Donald Trump insists it will have to be Ukraine that makes a deal if it wants to end Russia's ongoing invasion.

Checking the action on Wall Street now. U.S. stocks pulled back from Monday's record highs. The Nasdaq snapped a six-day winning streak. All

this despite a somewhat encouraging read on the U.S. economy. Retail sales rose more than expected in August. They posted their third straight monthly

gain despite rising inflation and a softening labor market.

Investors now awaiting the outcome of the Fed's two-day policy meeting now underway. Investors expect the central bank to cut rates a quarter of a

percentage point. They will be looking closely at the Fed's projections for future rate cuts as well.

[18:35:04]

So who gets the vote at this meeting? Arguably just as important as how they vote. Fed Governor Lisa Cook is participating. A U.S. appeals court

rejected a last minute push by the White House to oust her immediately over allegations of mortgage fraud. The White House now says it will take the

case all the way to the Supreme Court.

Stephen Miran, President Trump's pick to fill a vacancy on the Fed's governing board, also has a vote in these discussions. He was narrowly

confirmed by the U.S. Senate late Monday. Miran says he is taking an unpaid leave from his other job as head of the White House Council of Economic

Advisers. His refusal to resign from a job in the White House raises ongoing and growing concerns about the Fed's independence.

Scott Alvarez was general counsel for the Fed's Board of Governors.

Scott, thanks so much for joining.

SCOTT ALVAREZ, FORMER GENERAL COUNSEL, FEDERAL RESERVE BOARD: Pleasure to be here.

SCIUTTO: Lots of questions about the state of the Fed's independence. Let's go through them one by one. So Lisa Cook survives to participate another

day. We'll see where the Supreme Court stands on this. But she's still the subject of quite public attacks from this administration, who appears to

want to put its people on the Fed board so that they will cut rates at the president's -- well, to the president's desire.

Is her participation at least a sign that, well, perhaps the independence will survive another day?

ALVAREZ: Well, it certainly survives this meeting. The White House has said that the Department of Justice will appeal to the Supreme Court. But it

doesn't look like that will happen today. And even if it does happen today, I doubt the Supreme Court will remove Lisa in the morning. That she's

already embedded in the FOMC meeting, they already have gone through their round of discussions about what the economy is like. Everybody's views on

the economy and pretty much signaled where they'll be on the vote. So it would be pretty disruptive to remove her in the morning when the vote is

actually taken.

SCIUTTO: You know, the thing about this is that it's not secret what the president wants here. He wants rates cut. That helps sitting politicians.

And he wants more control. He wants his people to make those decisions. I wonder if you fear something along the lines of a death by a thousand cuts

here, right? Because you pressure someone like Lisa Cook on charges that some documents seem to question the validity of those charges.

You have him already discussing publicly firing the Fed chair, although he hasn't gone that far. But you can expect him to put someone in that role

more to his liking. And now he has Scott Miran on the board as well. I mean, one by one, do you see the Fed's independence fading at least, or

weakening?

ALVAREZ: Well, I think the Fed is, you know, it's a body of a bunch of people. The FOMC has 12 members. The board itself is seven. So it takes

quite a lot to shift the board members and the FOMC members. But clearly the president is trying his best. And every president will get a chance to

remove or to replace two members. That's the way the terms are staggered. So he's working on getting more than two, and perhaps that will happen.

SCIUTTO: The market is often viewed as the final check on this, right? And you've had previous moments where the market has responded negatively when,

for instance, President Trump has had some of his most vitriolic attacks against the Fed chairman. Is that a reliable check in your view? I mean, of

course, the trouble is the market is way up, right? And, you know, the market also wants interest rates to go down.

So I wonder if you, as someone who had a role on the Fed, is confident that the markets can do what, well, either this president or the Senate or the

courts will not?

ALVAREZ: Yes, I think that the markets are some check. No question about that. On the other hand, the markets shift to recognizing who the decision

maker is. And I think if the Fed loses its independence, then the markets will shift to looking at what the president wants, and they'll react in

accordance with that. And we know that that can be more volatile and that can be more inflationary. So the markets will have to take that into

account. And they will, I think, as they see the shift occurring in power from the board and the FOMC to the president.

SCIUTTO: The newest member, Stephen Miran, has floated a number of ideas to, in his view, reform the Fed, including shortening the terms of Fed

governors and putting state governors in charge of regional boards.

[18:40:02]

Do any of those changes make sense in your view? And would they maintain that treasured independence of the Fed?

ALVAREZ: Yes, I think each of those is designed to reduce the independence of the Federal Reserve, shortening the terms of governors and changing who

selects the Federal Reserve Bank presidents to make it more political. Those changes will make the Fed more political and less independent. And we

have seen, I mean, there's evidence that a central bank that is not independent leads to more inflation in the economy and is not good for the

economy in the long run.

It's happened in, you know, Argentina, Venezuela, in various places in Europe through history and even in the United States when Nixon meddled

with the Federal Reserve during his term.

SCIUTTO: There's precedent, as you note. Scott Alvarez, former general counsel for the Fed Board of Governors, thanks so much for joining.

ALVAREZ: Thank you. Pleasure.

SCIUTTO: And I'll be back with more news right after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: A sad goodbye today to a Hollywood icon. Robert Redford, the actor and Oscar winning director, has died at the age of 89. Known for his charm,

his good looks, Redford rose quickly from matinee idol to A-list actor, taking on roles that defined the '60s and '70s. "Desperado" and "Butch

Cassidy and the Sundance Kid," a secret agent in "Three Days of the Condor," and a real-life Watergate reporter in "All the President's Men."

In his later years, he moved from acting to directing and producing, winning an Oscar along the way. But it is Redford's Sundance Institute that

could become part of his most enduring legacy, kicking off a massive wave of independent filmmaking. Ryan Coogler, Quentin Tarantino, Barry Jenkins,

Julia Roberts, Taika Waititi and countless others all got their start with the help of the Sundance Film Festival.

CNN's Sara Sidner has more on his remarkable life.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SARA SIDNER, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Hollywood legend and leading man Robert Redford had many roles in front of the camera as well as behind it.

He was a true filmmaker and will always be remembered for many iconic films.

ROBERT REDFORD, ACTOR AND DIRECTOR: And she denies even knowing about the conversation taking --

SIDNER: "All the President's Men."

REDFORD: Look, I don't know when I'll be back.

SIDNER: And "The Way We Were." 1969's "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid" was his first blockbuster film starring alongside Paul Newman.

[18:45:09]

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hands up.

SIDNER: They also co-starred in "The Sting," for which he was nominated for Best Actor in 1974. Redford was cast as the romantic leading man in films

like "The Great Gatsby" and "Out of Africa," a label that followed him throughout his life, even as he became older.

REDFORD: Yes, I didn't see myself the way others saw me. So, I was kind of feeling trapped because I couldn't go outside the box of leading man or

good looking leading man. It was very flattering, but it was feeling restrictive. So, it took many years to break loose of that.

SIDNER: Redford won a Best Director Oscar in 1981 for "Ordinary People." He directed "A River Runs Through It," "Quiz Show" and many other films. A

native Californian, he was born in Santa Monica in 1936. As Los Angeles grew, so did Redford's love for protecting the environment.

REDFORD: I grew up respecting nature because what happened to Los Angeles. It was a city as a child during the end of the Second World War that I

loved, and it was a beautiful city and the air was clean. And then what happened after the war was suddenly there were skyscrapers and there was

pollution. It felt like the city that I loved as a child was taken away from me. So, I moved away from that in sadness.

SIDNER: Redford moved to New York City to pursue an acting career on Broadway in the late 1950s. His big breakout role there was in Neil Simon's

"Barefoot in the Park," a role he would later reprise on the big screen with co-star Jane Fonda. But after several years on Broadway, Redford left

the glitz and glamour behind, and in 1961 moved to Utah where he bought two acres of land for just $500 and built a cabin for his family.

REDFORD: I discovered how important nature was in my life, and I wanted to be where nature was extreme and where I thought it could be maybe

everlasting.

SIDNER: An avid environmentalist, he bought more land over the years in Park City, Utah, and turned it into the Sundance Institute in 1981, a

nonprofit dedicated to independent filmmakers. And four years later started the Sundance Film Festival to showcase their work.

REDFORD: Once the press came, then fashion came. And when fashion came, the paparazzi came. So, these are kind of like tears that formed outside of

what we were doing. And that's fine. That's their business, but it's not who we are.

SIDNER: And his love for the environment continued.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As years went on, I became more and more convinced that nature played a great role in our lives, but wasn't being treated fairly.

And so I got committed to preserving that.

SIDNER: But he didn't stop acting and directing, and was awarded an honorary Oscar in 2002 for his contributions to filmmaking.

REDFORD: But I want to make the most of what I've been given, and you keep pushing yourself forward. You try new things, and that's invigorating. I

guess I've found out that rather than retiring, that just feels better. Just keep moving as long as you can keep moving.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: Keep moving. For more on Redford's life, joining me now Stephen Galloway. He's dean of Chapman University's Dodge College of Film and

Media. For many years, he was the executive editor as well of the "Hollywood Reporter."

Robert, good to have you. You know, listen, as I see and go over the -- so many films he started through the years, I mean, you begin with, you know,

the smile, the square jaw. Right? That deep voice, the blond hair. I mean, he was a -- he had the looks of a Hollywood superstar, no question. But

also enormous talent. Right? Through the years, and not just as an actor, but as a director.

STEPHEN GALLOWAY, DEAN, CHAPMAN UNIVERSITY'S DODGE COLLEGE OF FILM AND MEDIA ARTS: He did. And I think the talent in his case was often

underestimated. I think it often is with stars who make it look so easy. And we always make the mistake of saying, well, that's just who he is. He's

the golden boy. He looks great, he's charming. And in fact, I think he was a much more complex and driven person.

You know, if you look at what he did both on screen and off, he had an enormous drive and enormous passion and individuality. As a director, he

tackled very dark subjects that he was maybe afraid to do as an actor. It's interesting, you know, watching the clip where he sort of blames Hollywood

for pigeonholing him. But back in the early '80s, FOX wanted him to do a movie called "The Verdict" about an alcoholic lawyer.

And they kept chasing and chasing and chasing, and finally, he just wouldn't commit. And one of the execs there had warned the others he's

never going to play this role.

[18:50:03]

And I think he was more comfortable going dark with the films he directed than with his screen persona which is a shame. You know, you look at

something like "Indecent Proposal," where he plays this billionaire who offers Demi Moore, you know, $1 million to spend the night with her. The

way he delivers the line where he says -- he doesn't say, I will, will you take a million? He just does it in a tossed off, casual way.

You want to grab lunch, and it's such intelligent acting. And he made it seem so real. A friend of mine was on the set when that happened, was just

stunned at what he could do. And by the way, at the same time, this is a guy who wanted to walk off the picture because at some point he was so

insecure about could he deliver the role. So I think he was a much more complicated person. That golden boy image seemed.

SCIUTTO: Was he one of the -- I won't say originators because independent film existed before Sundance, but, I mean, you might call him its most

important kind of intellectual investor, right? In the rise of independent films.

GALLOWAY: By the way, what a great term intellectual investor. That defines him brilliantly. First of all, the irony of the quintessential studio star

of the, well, now, it's not the modern era, but, you know, post-World War II actually being the single most important person in the indie sphere. I

think it's extraordinary. And it's also kind of ironic that the very last Sundance Festival in Park City is coming up, and he died just before that.

SCIUTTO: Wow.

GALLOWAY: But enormously important in that area for putting a spotlight, for giving land and money, for saying this is amazingly important. You know

what was great about him and some of those stars is even when they didn't want to do indie work, they recognized quality. You know, if you're a star,

sustain your stardom is partly about your own ability, but it's also about recognizing other people's talents and who you'll work with. And what he

said is, this is how we're going to find that talent.

SCIUTTO: Well, certainly found a lot of talent. And of course, we could have a whole another conversation about his activism.

But, Stephen Galloway, thanks so much for helping us remember him.

GALLOWAY: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Remembering Robert Redford. And I'll be right back.

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SCIUTTO: Finally, in today's "Good Brief," a remarkable story from the legendary singer Elton John. In the new documentary, "Elton John Youched by

Gold," he reveals how he used his painful kneecap surgery as an opportunity to make fashionable bling.

[18:55:02]

ELTON JOHN, SINGER: When I have my kneecaps removed, the left one first and then the right, I asked my surgeon if I could keep the kneecaps, which he

was rather startled about. Then I rang you and said, were you be prepared to -- if I gave you the left and the right kneecap to do what you want with

them?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Wow. E-News reports his jeweler said he baked the bones, explaining that way they'd be easier to turn into jewelry. Goodness.

Thanks so much for your company. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington. You've been watching THE BRIEF. Stay with CNN.

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