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The Brief with Jim Sciutto
Abbas Says Hamas Will Not Play Role in Palestinian State; Trump to Now Allow Israel to Annex West Bank; Senior Hamas Official Defends 'High Price' of Oct 7; Top Danish Officials Warns of Russian Sabotage; U.S. Intercepts Russian Fighter Jets in Alaska Airspace; Trump Hosts President Erdogan at WH; Trump Sign Executive Order on TikTok Deal; Bondi and Prosecutors have Concerns about Comey Case; Former FBI Director Comey Indicted. Aired 6-7p ET
Aired September 25, 2025 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[18:00:00]
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello and welcome to our viewers joining us from all around the world. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington. And
you're watching "The Brief."
Just ahead this hour, a senior Hamas official speaks to CNN and defends the deadly October 7 terror attack despite a high prized Palestinians have paid
in its aftermath. We're going to bring you the wide-ranging interview. A top Danish official warns about the risk of Russian sabotage after drones
disrupted multiple airports. And President Trump signs an executive order that will allow TikTok to operate in the U.S. under new ownership.
We begin with the U.N. General Assembly in New York. Mahmoud Abbas, president of the Palestinian Authority, forced to address the body remotely
after the Trump administration denied his visa. His speech comes as some 160 countries have either recognized a Palestinian State or made plans to
do so. Abbas insisted Hamas would not have a role in governing a future Palestinian State. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAHMOUD ABBAS, PRESIDENT, PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY (through translator): Despite all what our people have suffered, we reject what Hamas carried out
on the 7th of October. These actions that targeted Israeli civilians and took them hostages because these actions do not represent the Palestinian
people, nor do they represent their just struggle for freedom and independence.
We have affirmed and we will continue to affirm that the Gaza Strip is an integral part of the state of Palestine and that we are ready to bear full
responsibility for governance and security there. Hamas will not have a role to play in governance.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: The Trump White House has now proposed a peace plan to end the war in Gaza. One key point, no Israeli annexation of the West Bank. Here's what
Trump had to say earlier today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: I will not allow Israel to annex the West Bank. I will not allow it. It's not going to happen.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you speak with Netanyahu about this --
TRUMP: Yes, but I'm not going to allow it. Whether I spoke to him or not, I did. But I'm not allowing Israel to annex the West Bank. There's been
enough. It's time to stop now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Quite strong words there for the Israeli leader. In Doha, Qatar, our own Jeremy Diamond sat down with a senior Hamas leader, Ghazi Hamad,
who provided a rare insight into the terrorist group's planning and thinking. Jeremy Diamond joins me now from Doha. He defends the October 7th
attacks. It's remarkable.
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT: Yes, certainly, Jim. And listen, we sat down with Ghazi Hamad two weeks after the Israeli military
tried to kill him in that military strike that happened right here in the Qatari capital just two weeks ago. We spoke about that strike, about the
fallout since then to negotiations. But then, of course, I did also press him on Hamas' responsibility for the October 7th attacks and all of the
death and destruction in Gaza that has followed.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DIAMOND (voice-over): Nearly two years after Hamas attacked Israel on October 7th, Gaza has paid a massive price. The devastation rivaled only by
the suffering of its people. Israel has killed more than 65,000 Palestinians, according to the Palestinian health ministry. Hundreds of
thousands are displaced and homeless. Israeli attacks are only intensifying.
DIAMOND: Do you accept any responsibility for triggering so much death and destruction?
GHAZI HAMAD, SENIOR HAMAS OFFICIAL: The history did not begin on October 7th. We spent 78 years under the occupation, under humiliation, under
oppression, under repression, under killing, under displacement. Now, why your world is focused on October 7th?
DIAMOND (voice-over): Ghazi Hamad is a senior Hamas official, sitting for his first U.S. TV interview in months.
[18:05:00]
DIAMOND: But before October 7th, Israel had never unleashed this level of death and destruction on Gaza before. How can you look at me with a
straight face and tell me that you accept no responsibility whatsoever for what has happened in the two years since?
HAMAD: Look, what is the option left for the Palestinians to do? First time that Palestinians have shown sacrifice in the Israel-Palestinian conflict?
DIAMOND: What gives you the right to decide that Palestinian women and children should be sacrificed on the altar of your resistance?
HAMAD: No, all the time we are sacrificing, we are fighting.
DIAMOND: But I'm asking you about the civilian deaths in Gaza and what gives you the right to decide it's a price worth paying. That child can
die. It's OK. Because it's in order to fulfill our resistance.
HAMAD: Look, as Hamas, we are fighting for the interests of the people. We don't want our people to be killed. Don't put the problem on the shoulder
of Hamas. No, I think that --
DIAMOND: Again, sir, when I speak with Israeli officials, I press them about what they are doing in Gaza. When I'm speaking with Hamas officials,
I press them for your responsibility.
DIAMOND (voice-over): But some Palestinians have had enough.
Our message to Hamas is stop gambling with us, this man says. You are disconnected from reality, especially since the Hamas leadership is outside
of Gaza.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want to send a message to Hamas. We talk to people, talk by people. Stop the -- war. We are dying here.
DIAMOND (voice-over): But Hamad doesn't seem interested in hearing those voices.
HAMAD: I know. I have seen. I have seen.
DIAMOND: This is not it. There's more.
HAMAD: I have seen this video. Yes. Yes. Yes.
DIAMOND: Sir, there is more.
HAMAD: I know people are suffering. There are some people blame Hamas.
DIAMOND: Why will you not listen to the voices of Palestinian people in Gaza?
HAMAD: Look, look. I know. This is -- but, look, this is not the whole story.
DIAMOND: These people who want Hamas to surrender, lay down its weapons, and leave the Gaza Strip, what do you say to them?
HAMAD: No one asks Hamas to surrender. We will never surrender. These people under abnormal circumstances, we put him under target and killing
and massacring. What do you expect for people to say?
DIAMOND (voice-over): Hamad is eager to tout what he calls the, quote, "benefits of October 7th," in which Hamas killed nearly 1,200 people and
kidnapped more than 250 others. He says it led to growing international support for the Palestinian cause.
HAMAD: What is the benefit of October 7th now? Now, when they award now. If you look to the General Assembly yesterday, when about 194 people opened
their eyes and looked to the atrocity, to brutality of Israel, and all of them, they condemned Israel. We waited for this moment for 77 years. I
think this is a golden moment for the world to change the history. I think that now the world is a change. The history is a change now.
DIAMOND: In your view, 65,000 deaths is worth it in order to achieve what you've achieved?
HAMAD: Look, I know the price is so high, but I'm asking again, what is the option?
DIAMOND: Was it worth it
HAMAD: What is the option left to the Palestinians? You know what? We waited for a peaceful process, for a peaceful means, since 1993, since Oslo
Agreement, till now.
DIAMOND (voice-over): The prospects for peace seem as far away as ever, two weeks after Israel tried to kill Hamad and other senior Hamas officials not
far from where we sat down.
HAMAD: I think it is a miracle because the rockets are very close to us. We are under target, and it was a brutal attack on us. So, I think it was a
long and very strong message to us, and even to Qatari, that we are not interested in negotiation. We want to kill. We want to destroy. We want to
assassinate. This is our own policy to handle the whole situation. Everything now is frozen.
DIAMOND (voice-over): Hamas' demands have also not shifted.
HAMAD: We insisted to go to the comprehensive deal, to retain all the hostages, either alive or dead. And we said frankly we can return them in
24 hours, but Israel refused.
DIAMOND: Well, they have conditions for ending the war. They want Hamas to be out of power, and they want Hamas to disarm. Are you willing to abandon
power in Gaza and lay down your weapons?
HAMAD: Look, Hamas is part of the Palestinian fabric. You cannot exclude Hamas, but as I said again and again, regarding the ruling of Gaza, we are
ready to be out of the ruling of Gaza. We have no problem with this. The arm of Hamas is a legitimate and legal weapon which is used all the time
against occupation. It is not a terrorist weapon.
DIAMOND: How does this war end? Because over the course of our conversation, I've seen very little that suggests any willingness on your
part to compromise.
HAMAD: I think it is easy. I think Mr. Trump and the world could ask Netanyahu in order to stop the war, to stop the genocide in Gaza.
DIAMOND: Do you have any confidence that he will do that?
HAMAD: I don't know. I think we tested him many times. But I think it is not easy to trust Mr. Trump or to trust the American administration. All
the time they put the glasses of Israel. They adopt the Israeli position.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
[18:10:00]
DIAMOND (on camera): And Jim, I also press Hamad on the fate of Israeli hostages being held in Gaza. Even though last week we saw Hamas' military
wing announce that they are spreading out the Israeli hostages in Gaza City amid an Israeli offensive there, Hamas denied that Hamas is using those
hostages as human shields. He insisted that the hostages are being treated in accordance with Islamic law despite many testimonies to the contrary.
And when I pressed him on why not give the Red Cross access to these hostages to assess their condition, he said the situation on the ground is,
quote, "complicated." Jim.
SCIUTTO: I mean, yes. They're holding hostages, right? He doesn't even, you know, question that very fact. It was notable to me for him to say there
that the recognition of Palestinian Statehood at the U.N. showed that October 7th was a victory. That's notable because that's the point you hear
President Trump and many Israeli officials make. So, do you read Hamas seeing that as something of a win for them?
DIAMOND: Absolutely. I think it was quite clear that he sees a lot of the international pressure that is being brought to bear on Israel, a lot of
the recognition of a Palestinian State, the millions of people marching in the streets over the course of this war as very much the fruits of the
October 7th attack and what Hamas was trying to accomplish.
Of course, part of that involves a disproportionate Israeli military response that we have seen over the last two years, which Hamad and other
senior Hamas officials knew would be the kind of heavy-handed, disproportionate response that they would get from Israel. And that's why I
focus so much on Hamas' responsibility, its share of responsibility at least, for all of the death and destruction that we have seen inside of the
Gaza Strip as well.
SCIUTTO: Jeremy Diamond in Doha, thanks so much. Well, Denmark says that drones detected over its airspace are believed to be part of a hybrid
attack by professional actors. Hybrid attacks, according to NATO, blur the lines between all-out war and peace, combining military and non-military
tactics as well as covert and other means, including cyberattacks, but drone flights like we're seeing here. Three Danish airports were forced to
close due to those drone overflights, and there were drone sightings at several more airports and military bases.
In neighboring Norway, airspace around the Oslo airport was shut down for hours on Tuesday after a separate drone sighting, enormous disruption as a
result.
Europe is already on high alert after a series of airspace incursions by Russian drones in Poland and Romania, as well as armed MiG fighters over
Estonia. Bloomberg is now reporting that the Kremlin has been warned by European diplomats that NATO is ready to respond to further violations of
its airspace with force, including the possibility of shooting down Russian aircraft. That reporting cites officials familiar with the exchange.
In another incident, the U.S. sent nine aircraft to intercept four Russian bombers and fighter jets that flew into Alaska's air defense identification
zone. That's according to the North American Aerospace Defense Command. That zone, we should note, begins where U.S. sovereign airspace ends.
Aircrafts are required to identify themselves in that zone.
The Russian Ministry of Defense released this video from that very flight Wednesday night. Seeming to show off a little bit, NORAD says the Russian
aircraft, which consisted of two Tu-95 strategic bear bombers and two Su-35 fighter jets, remained in international airspace. It's important to note,
NORAD says, these kinds of flights do occur regularly and are not seen by themselves as a threat. It says there have now been nine such instances
this year.
Joining me now is Stephen J. Flanagan, adjunct professor -- or adjunct fellow at RAND and adjunct professor at Georgetown University. Thanks so
much for joining.
STEPHEN J. FLANAGAN, ADJUNCT SENIOR FELLOW, RAND AND ADJUNCT PROFESSOR, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY: Happy to be with you, Jim.
SCIUTTO: A question for you. Do you see it as a genuine possibility that NATO aircraft would engage manned Russian aircraft? Do you believe that
that message that is apparently being sent by diplomats is genuine?
FLANAGAN: I think it's become more of a real possibility because there is this recognition. These violations of Estonian and Polish airspace and also
Romania as well do represent a significant escalation in the Russian campaign, as you described it earlier, of these sort of shadow attacks,
sometimes having aircraft that fly into the -- in and along the coastline of some of these countries with their transponders turned off, threatening
civil aircraft.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
[18:15:00]
FLANAGAN: But I do think that at this point NATO has reached the stage where, while it had these consultations with Poland and Estonia over the
notion of being prepared to take further action, I think that we might see a movement from the notion of the current rules of engagement which had
been to escort these intruding aircraft away from NATO airspace to -- or perhaps, you know, a suggestion of more forceful -- or certainly a
signaling of a willingness to shoot down and see how the Russians respond, because the Russians are testing NATO response here. And that's part of the
problem in this cat and mouse game that's going on right now.
SCIUTTO: I wonder what your review is, assessment is of the NATO response so far, because of course hybrid war -- Russian hybrid war is not new in
Europe. Russia's been waging this for years now on a number of fronts, cyber-attacks, you have these ships accidentally rolling over undersea
cables, you have political interference, you have assassinations on the streets of Europe. Has Europe and the U.S., have they gotten their response
to this hybrid war right?
FLANAGAN: It's still evolving. NATO has been trying to deal with this for several years now. They took some actions to deal with strengthening what's
called national resilience to be able to harden infrastructure to counter these cyber-attacks and work more effectively together, collectively
monitoring the Russian activities, as you said, trying to cut these cables or mysterious, you know, cable cutting that takes place, sometimes with
Chinese ghost ships and other things. But there's still much to be done.
And NATO is now moving in a direction where it's decided that it really has to -- that this shadow war that is going on has to be dealt with. And the
real purpose is of course to -- I think right now, these incursions into European airspace are largely designed to intimidate European allies in
maintaining their continued support to Ukraine and to suggest that Russian -- and still has a considerable capacity to cause destruction and to
intimidate those allies if they persist in this support.
And with the U.S. incursion, I think that may have been a -- you know, the timing of that, as you said, these are not unusual, the Russian bombers and
other aircraft flying along the international identification zone, that's not new, but coming on the heels of recent comments about Russia being a
paper tiger, it may have been -- you know, as Dmitry Peskov said, trying to demonstrate that Russia is nothing like a tiger, but it is still a bear and
bears are not made of paper.
SCIUTTO: Right.
FLANAGAN: So, I think a little bit of muscle flexing here perhaps in the immediate Alaska operation, but again, a continuation of a much broader
pattern that is very worrisome. And NATO, I think, is moving to take. It certainly took vigorous action quickly to move and enhance air defense of
Poland and the Baltic states over the last several days.
SCIUTTO: It's funny you use the phrase shadow war. I wrote a book called "Shadow War" about that a few years ago. Stephen Flanagan, thanks so much
for joining and helping us understand it all.
FLANAGAN: You're welcome. Thanks, Jim.
SCIUTTO: At the White House, President Trump played host to the leader of Turkey. The war in Ukraine, trade and energy deals were among the biggest
topics of conversation. Trump urged President Recep Tayyip Erdogan to stop buying Russian oil. Turkey, one of the three largest buyers in Europe of
Russian oil. He said the U.S. could lift its sanctions on Turkey almost immediately. Trump ordered those sanctions during his first term after
Turkey purchased a Russian air defense system.
During the Oval Office meeting, Trump addressed Wednesday's shooting at a U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement office. He told reporters the
incident might spark a right-wing backlash.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: The radical left is causing this problem. Not the right, the radical left. And it's going to get worse, and ultimately, it's going to go back on
them. I mean, bad things happen when they play these games. And I'll give you a little clue. The right is a lot tougher than the left. But the
right's not doing this. They're not doing it. And they better not get them energized, because it won't be good for the left.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Alarming words there. Important to note, no law enforcement were injured in this shooting. One detainee was killed, two others wounded.
CNN's Alayna Treene joins me now from the White House. Now, of course, what the president said there is false. The sad fact in this country is that
people identifying with the right and the left have carried out a series of acts of violence for years now, and, you know, January 6th being one of
them. Is there anybody in the White House that you speak with that is advising the president to try to do his own part to tone down the rhetoric,
or are they confidently backing this line that this is all the left's fault? Because his words there about the right being stronger, I mean, it
had overtones of a threat.
ALAYNA TREENE, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Yes, essentially the way that he characterized it in the Oval Office, Jim, was saying that he didn't want
the right to retaliate, but it could be inevitable, which, as you said, is alarming.
[18:20:00]
Now, as to your question about, are there people in the White House who are trying to kind of, you know, say tone this down, take the temperature down?
Not really. From all of the conversations I'm having, and this I'm referring to mainly the people in the West Wing, those who are considered
part of the president's inner orbit, they are right by the president's side. Part of that, of course, is some of them are still reeling and very
angry after the assassination of Charlie Kirk, and now to have this shooting at the Dallas ICE facility yesterday, they were very quick to try
and point fingers again at the left.
Now, of course, I do want to add that we've seen from the FBI director pointing to evidence that, essentially asserting that a review of the
evidence indicates that the shooter was ideologically motivated in targeting the ICE field office and that he had fired indiscriminately at
the building.
But look, it does come, as we know, that there are steps that the president is going to be making. He's already taken some. We saw on Monday he signed
an executive order designating Antifa as a terrorist organization, although I'd point out that it's not really a -- it doesn't have a central
organization that runs it.
And then, today, he also, just moments ago while in the Oval Office, signed a proclamation essentially trying to ramp up investigations of groups that
they argue are supporting political violence. Now, that presidential memorandum today wasn't very specific. He was actually pressed, Jim, by a
reporter saying, which groups are you actually referring to? You saw Attorney General Pam Bondi was actually right beside him behind the
Resolute Desk. They couldn't name a single institution. And said -- Pam Bondi put it this way, she said, quote, "Any organized group who is
committing these crimes are part of their targets."
And so, it's clear that we are only going to be seeing an escalation of this, but it's not clear to what extent that will actually look like. All
questions that we are continuing to try to push this White House on. So far, they haven't had very thorough answers, Jim.
SCIUTTO: Alayna Treene, thanks so much for covering. Still ahead, a deal to save TikTok. And the U.S. is now getting closer. Not yet a done deal. What
President Trump's newly signed executive order means for the future of the Chinese-developed social media app. Next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: Welcome back to "The Brief." Checking the action now on Wall Street. Stocks lost ground for a third straight session, pressured by
rising U.S. bond yields. Yields rose after the release of stronger-than- expected U.S. GDP data.
[18:25:00]
Stocks in the news include Starbucks. The coffee chain announced a $1 billion restructuring plan that will lead to the closure of hundreds of
unprofitable locations. Hundreds of workers are expected to lose their jobs as well.
Also, today, Amazon agreed to an historic $2.5 billion settlement with the U.S. Federal Trade Commission. The FTC says Amazon tricked consumers into
subscribing for its Amazon Prime service and then made it hard for them to cancel.
President Trump today signed an executive order to keep TikTok up and running in the U.S. The president approved a proposed deal that will shift
control of TikTok's U.S. assets from China's ByteDance to a consortium of mostly American investors, many of them close to the president. President
Trump confirmed that U.S. software giant Oracle is part of that investment group.
And Vice President J.D. Vance says the new TikTok U.S. will be valued at some $14 billion. He says a key U.S. security concern will be alleviated if
the deal closes because TikTok's algorithm will be out of Chinese control.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
J.D. VANCE, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: The fundamental thing that we want to accomplish is that we wanted to keep TikTok operating, but we also wanted
to make sure that we protected Americans' data privacy as required by law, both because it's the right thing to do, but also because it's a legal
requirement of the law that was passed last year by Congress. So, we think that we were able to do that. Of course, we're going to keep on working at
it.
But this deal really does mean that Americans can use TikTok, but actually use it with more confidence than they had in the past because their data is
going to be secure and it's not going to be used as a propaganda weapon against our fellow citizens.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: ByteDance will, though, hold onto a chunk of the company. The deal still needs final regulatory approval from China. Today's action allows for
a new 120-day window to finalize the deal.
Joining me now, Ross Gerber, president and CEO of Gerber Kawasaki Wealth and Investment Management. Ross, good to have you. Based on your
understanding, is the vice president right when he says that this solves the security concerns?
ROSS GERBER, PRESIDENT AND CEO, GERBER KAWASAKI WEALTH AND INVESTMENT MANAGEMENT: For the most part, I think it does, if you really get into the
weeds of what's happening with the transfer of the intellectual property of the algorithm out of the Chinese hands into Oracle's hands. So, it's not
just about ownership, it's actually about who's controlling what we actually see on TikTok.
And that's the source of the great manipulation that China has been doing to our kids for the last, you know, several years as the engagement on
TikTok is almost like insatiable. And there's just so much, you know, I would consider negative impact content on there to create a divisive
environment among our society here in the United States. And they've been wildly successful. It's actually the most powerful tool that China has to
attack the United States. So, this is a huge victory if we can gain control of the algorithm.
SCIUTTO: Let me ask you this, though, because President Trump has been quite public about why he likes TikTok. He said in so many words, it helped
get him elected. He even joked today about making it entirely MAGA content. He's going to be giving it financial control to pro-Trump friends of his,
very wealthy people like Larry Ellison. Might TikTok then become a political influence tool in this country for Trump and the MAGA movement?
GERBER: Yes, absolutely. And it's no different than what's happened with X and what was Twitter. And so, certainly part of this is taking it away from
China and giving it to another force that's going to use it for their benefit. So, you know, I think the bigger issue is, you know, the Chinese
have a different goal than per se the right-wing or the Republicans might have for TikTok. And, you know, once again, China's goal is to weaken our
country where this is much more a political issue between the United States.
So, I really think in general, social media is an extremely bad development for our society in the way that it's morphed into a tool to manipulate us.
And I think all people, all people need to spend a lot less time on social media. I've given it up and I can't tell you it's changed my life for the
positive in so many ways.
SCIUTTO: Yes. Listen, I mean, I got the same concern about my own use. I try to limit it and my kids as well.
GERBER: My kids aren't allowed to use it.
SCIUTTO: Well, good for you. Good for you. The thing is -- and one reason I stayed away from it for years was because intelligence context of mine told
me this is an intelligence gathering tool. It's a tool of influence. Even if the algorithm is moving, in effect, under U.S. control, given the way
technology works and if you go back to the concerns about Huawei, right, the concern was that, you know, embedded in the technology was some sort
of, you know, backdoor for the Chinese government. Can we be confident that there are no such backdoors?
[18:30:00]
GERBER: Yes and no. You know, I don't want to -- you know, this is just speculation, but, you know, the people -- you know, right now, TikTok USA
runs on Oracle servers, we're Oracle shareholders at GK. And so, that was already a big victory because the data is held on Oracle servers already.
But the people involved, like Larry Ellison, are extremely sophisticated technologists that I'm sure can figure out any backdoors that China might
have put in the software.
But the reality of it is the way that this deal is structured, it very much transfers the technology and the data out of Chinese hands. And even in the
best-case scenario, it would be very difficult for them to have the type of influence over TikTok in the future that they've had in the past.
So, this is it. There's no way to spin it other than this is good. Of course, it can be turned into a negative and we can try to spin it that
way. But really, right now, we're in a sort of a war with China and Russia. And so, this tool, social media, is the best tool that the Russians and the
Chinese have to fight the United States. And in the fallacy that Trump thinks he won because of TikTok, it could very much be turned against him
if the Chinese want to.
So, I think that, you know, it's convenient when it works for you, but it's not convenient when it works against you.
SCIUTTO: Makes perfect sense. Ross Gerber, thanks so much, as always.
GERBER: Thank you.
SCIUTTO: Well, sources say that at any moment, an indictment could drop against former FBI Director James Comey. You're hearing, though, that the
president's attorney general has some concerns about the case.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: Welcome back to "The Brief." I'm Jim Sciutto. Here are the international headlines we're watching today.
Officials in Denmark said that drone incursions near airports across their country this week were a hybrid attack. The drones caused Aalborg Airport
to temporarily shut down Wednesday. Authorities say it is too soon to say who's behind these drones. However, the country's top officials have
suggested it could be Russia yet again. Russia's embassy in Denmark has denied involvement, saying it rejects the, quote, "absurd speculation."
[18:35:00]
U.S. officials have more details about Wednesday's deadly shooting at an immigration enforcement facility. Investigators say the gunman likely
intended to kill immigration officers based on the notes he left behind. They also say he acted alone. One detainee was killed. Two others were
hurt. Officials say the shooter then took his own life.
Hundreds of top U.S. military leaders around the globe have been summoned to a meeting in Virginia. Multiple officials say the generals and admirals
will meet with Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth on Tuesday. The reason for the meeting unclear. They haven't been told. Some officials worried about
having so many high-ranking officers in one place and away from their deployments.
President Donald Trump says he is not making the call on whether former FBI Chief James Comey is indicted, but he added he could get involved if he
wants to. An indictment could come down at any moment. We're hearing against Comey apparently on perjury charges. But we're also learning top
justice department officials, including the attorney general, Pam Bondi, have some reservations about the case.
CNN senior legal analyst and former U.S. federal prosecutor Elie Honig joins me now. Elie, good. Good to have you here. You know, a perjury
charge. They'd have to get a grand jury on board based on what we know. Do they have a case here?
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER ASSISTANT ATTORNEY, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK AND AUTHOR, "WHEN YOU COME AT THE KING": So, Jim, it's
ordinarily very easy, especially in the U.S. federal system, to get a grand jury to indict the burden of proof for a prosecutor is very low. You only
have to prove probable cause, not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that's at trial. You only have to get a majority of grand jurors as opposed to
unanimity, which you need at a full criminal trial. So, take it from me, I've been in the grand jury plenty of times. It's not hard.
However, perjury cases are notoriously difficult because you have to show as the prosecutor that your person, first of all, told a straight up lie,
not a half truth, not split hairs, not wasn't fully forthcoming, a lie, lied intentionally, not because of bad recall, not because of accident, and
that it was what we call material, meaning that it was relevant to some sort of ongoing official proceeding. It's much harder than it sounds. And
so, you need to really have a direct hit in order to bring a perjury case.
SCIUTTO: Now, because the president has said so publicly so often, including recently, that he wants his Justice Department to prosecute his
political enemies, critics, et cetera, those who prosecuted him in the past. I mean, can we read some political motivation here?
HONIG: Yes, I don't believe the president, when he says, as you just quoted in the open, that he's had nothing to do with this case or that he doesn't
make the call. I mean, he certainly made his intentions and desires known publicly through Truth Social, through his post, calling on that office to
indict Jim Comey and others by name.
And, Jim, that is all going to give the defense fodder for if this indictment does get through, because trust me, the first thing the defense
will do is move to dismiss this motion on what we call selective prosecution, which means this defendant has been singled out from among
others who did something similar or less for political reasons.
Now, usually defendants lose that motion because it's really hard to prove that they were singled out for political reasons. But here, I mean, you
just showed Exhibit A, it's the president's own words that he posted on social media, say, I want him gone after. And he's been saying it. Trump
has been saying this about Jim Comey for years. So, I don't know that I've ever seen a stronger case to dismiss based on selective prosecution.
SCIUTTO: You have other potential targets here. John Bolton being one of them. Possibility he gets charged with mishandling classified documents.
They apparently found one in his in his possession. Now, as I read that story, I was thinking about the pictures of the boxes and boxes of
classified documents found in former, at the time, President Trump's possession. But that was a case where it kind of didn't go anywhere, right,
because it ended up with a judge, right, a friendly judge.
I mean, is it -- do these cases rise and fall in part based on which circuit they end up in or which judge ends up handling them?
HONIG: Well, which judge you draw on a case, and federal judges are randomly assigned. It matters a lot. Trust me, I've sat there and watched
the process. They used to actually pick a name, like an index card out of a wheel. So, that's a big moment in any case.
But, you know, with respect to the John Bolton case, I'm going to -- I think we need to reserve judgment, see if there's an indictment and what
that indictment alleges, because initially the reporting was it may have had something to do with something John Bolton put in his book, which we
know Donald Trump hated. But there's been subsequent reporting that it may be something beyond that, that this new investigation of John Bolton was,
in fact, open during the Biden administration.
So, look, two things can be true. It might be -- it's certainly true that Donald Trump would love to get back at John Bolton, their longtime
antagonist. It might also be true that John Bolton did something very serious -- very seriously wrong as well. So, I'm going to I'm going to
reserve judgment until we see the indictment on that one.
[18:40:00]
SCIUTTO: All right. You got a new book out, "When You Come at the King: Inside the DOJ's Pursuit of the President from Nixon to Trump." And you
know, one thing is I was looking at the modern special counsel prosecutions which you go through in detail here. Patrick Fitzgerald, Valerie Plame,
Robert Mueller of course, John Durham, Robert Herr on possession of documents by Joe Biden, the Hunter, the Hunter Biden case and the Jack
Smith cases is that their track record's not great.
HONIG: Right. Yes. Part of what this book does is goes back -- in fact, back to Watergate and Iran-Contra and the Clinton-Ken Starr case, plus the
ones you talk about. And I talked to people, three dozen people who were involved in these cases, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and no, the track
record is far from perfect. It's probably not even great or good. It's highly flawed.
But here's the thing. It's better than nothing. It's better than where we are now, which is nobody will initiate any inward-looking investigation of
the president. And anyone who does will be punished. Hence the title, which is an allusion, of course, to the phrase, you come at the king, you better
not miss.
So, part of what I argue in this book is we can draw a lesson from history. We can devise a better system. But we need some system for accountability
or else we're going to be just completely lost.
SCIUTTO: But is the Supreme Court weak in that system with this immunity decision?
HONIG: Oh, sure. Yes, I talk about the immunity decision in the book. It did change quite a bit. It made it much harder to prosecute the president,
but not impossible. And, you know, this was just -- someone asked me the other day and I thought it was a great point. They asked, could Watergate
have been prosecuted under the immunity decision? And I think the answer is yes, most of it could have, because that involved Nixon's personal
political activity. And if you look at Jack Smith, after the immunity decision came down, he left a bunch of stuff in his indictment that related
to Donald Trump's personal political activity. So, for sure, the Supreme Court has made prosecution much harder, but not quite impossible.
SCIUTTO: The book is "When You Come at the King: Inside the DOJ's Pursuit of the President from Nixon to Trump." Elie Honig, thanks so much for
joining us.
HONIG: Thanks, Jim. Great to see you.
SCIUTTO: Still ahead, my conversation with Canada's foreign minister about her country's unwavering support for Ukraine, plus her thoughts on climate
change, trade and a difficult relationship with the U.S.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: As we reported earlier, President Trump urged Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan to stop buying Russian oil. During a meeting at the White
House today, Trump said he hoped Erdogan could use his influence with Russian President Vladimir Putin as well to push for an end to the war in
Ukraine. He criticized Putin for continuing its ongoing invasion.
[18:45:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I'm not going to ever call anybody a paper tiger, but Russia spent millions and millions of dollars in bombs, missiles, ammunition, and lives.
Their lives. And they've gained virtually no land. I think it's time to stop. I really do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Ukraine's president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, told the U.N. General Assembly Wednesday that his country still needs more support to defend
itself. At the U.N. yesterday, I spoke to Canadian Foreign Minister Anita Anand about her country's longstanding support for Ukraine. We also spoke
about climate change and the U.S. trading relationship with Canada. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANITA ANAND, CANADIAN FOREIGN MINISTER: We have been continually unified around the NATO table to ensure that we are doing whatever we can in the
short and long-term to preserve the sovereignty of Ukraine. I want to stress that Canada is the highest donor per capita to Ukraine with $22
billion on the table in humanitarian, financial, and military aid overall. And we will keep going.
SCIUTTO: Are you confident in U.S. leadership, though? Because I think it's fair to say that the U.S. approach not just to the Ukraine war, but even to
the NATO alliance, has not been entirely consistent. I did hear the phrase, defend every inch of NATO territory here from Marco Rubio, from Mike Waltz.
But the President has often expressed skepticism. I just wonder, I know that many in the Canadian public aren't confident in the relationship
today. Are you confident in the relationship?
ANAND: Listen, I've spent hours with Secretary Rubio this week alone. Much of it has been dedicated to discussing Ukraine, peace in the Middle East,
as well as regional stability in Haiti. On all three of those points, Secretary Rubio and I find common ground. That means that there is room for
global cooperation, not only between Canada and the United States, but amongst all of the NATO countries and the coalition of the willing, to
ensure that Ukrainian sovereignty is retained in the short and the long- term.
SCIUTTO: One clear area of disagreement between Canada, European allies, really the world, and the U.S. president is on the reality of climate
science. Because yesterday, President Trump called climate change the greatest con, perpetrated, I'm paraphrasing, but he did use the phrase
greatest con. What was your reaction to see the U.S. president, the leader of the largest economy in the world, one of the largest polluters, say all
that is a waste of time and money and not backed by the facts?
ANAND: We believe in the science and we believe that we need to do whatever we can to address climate change and promote environmental sustainability.
And right now, we're focused on energy projects, for example, that have the component of being green and clean. So, the importance of climate change
cannot be underestimated.
SCIUTTO: When you see some polling in Canada and also you just see it in what people buy and don't buy, right? They're buying less American stuff.
And Canadians have expressed doubts that the U.S. would honor a new trade agreement if the two sides were to agree to one. Is that relationship ever
going back to where it was?
ANAND: So, every close relationship has its hills and valleys. And we need to make sure that there's certainty for the Canadian public and Canadian
businesses. And I'm sure there are similar views on the other side of the border. That's a key component of the relationship. At the same time, we
have to remember that there are trading partners with whom we can increase our commerce with. For example, Canada is the only G7 country that has a
free trade agreement with every other G7 country. We need to leverage those relationships as well.
And so, there is much on the table in front of us economically and from a security and defense perspective, but here at the United Nations, Canada
will continue to stand for multilateralism and the rules-based international order that has kept us safe.
SCIUTTO: When you talk about building other trade relationships, though, it sounds like you're looking to replace some of the trade you do with the
U.S. with other trading partners.
[18:50:00]
ANAND: We have to continue to leverage the critical minerals and natural resources and other advantages that Canada brings to the table. And when
I'm in my bilateral meetings with other countries, everybody wants more of Canada. LNG has left our ports not once but twice. Countries are very
interested in Canada and what Canada has to offer economically.
SCIUTTO: When Prime Minister Carney said the other day that the possibility of Palestinian self-determination is being erased, did he mean to convey
that Israel is attempting to deliberately erase that possibility?
ANAND: He was conveying the reality on the ground and Canada's support for self-determination as a fundamental principle of international law. The
importance for Canada, for us to stand up for the principles of self- determination and international humanitarian law cannot be underestimated.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCIUTTO: Just breaking news now. A federal grand jury has indicted former FBI Director James Comey on charges of giving false statements and
obstruction of justice. U.S. Attorney General Pam Bondi has just confirmed that news on social media.
Joining me now, Katelyn Polantz. Well, this happened, Katelyn, as you know, just days after President Trump quite publicly said he wants his attorney
general and the Justice Department to prosecute some of his former enemies. What do we know about these charges?
KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jim, we don't know that much. We do know, though, that there are two and that a federal
grand jury has approved this indictment against the former FBI Director Jim Comey. What our producer Hannah Rabinowitz at the Justice Department has
been able to confirm is that this indictment happened today and that it is two charges. One would be giving false statements or perjury, lying of some
sort, and then obstruction of justice.
We don't know the exact behavior or the exact answers Comey may have given regarding those alleged false statements, but that would be what the case
is. And it is something that not just the Justice Department has wanted, not just that Donald Trump politically has wanted, but something that would
have been reviewed between by -- between 12 and 23 grand jurors in secret proceedings today. And that they would have asked to vote and say yes to
the fact that there may be probable cause to indict Jim Comey.
So, that is where we are now. It will now set off an extraordinary case that will have to be road tested by a judge and that potentially could be
looked at by a jury, also will be able to be challenged by Comey himself, his defense attorneys. We did reach out to them, and they do not have a
comment at this time. They have heard very little, if anything at all, from the Justice Department.
There is also a statement from the attorney general on social media talking about the Justice Department following the facts and the law, but not
mentioning Comey by name. Jim.
SCIUTTO: Now, a grand jury does not have to be unanimous when it indicts. We don't know -- do we know what the vote was for these charges?
POLANTZ: No, and we will never know. That is how grand juries work. They are confidential, and there are laws that govern that. The way that the
vote works, it will be recorded. It is -- the grand jury transcripts is something that Comey's defense team may be able to get access to at some
point. But as far as how the vote goes, that is not something that you get to see.
At the end of the day, what we will get to see, and potentially very soon today, maybe even tomorrow, we should be able to see court documents, what
that indictment says, how prosecutors wrote it and articulated it for the grand jurors to look at and then for the grand jurors, if they voted yes as
a quorum, which we know they did now to indict him, what they signed off on.
So, those court records will spell out quite a lot, and that's going to be very important because not only will it show the indictment of Jim Comey,
what the alleged behavior is, where the prosecutors believe they can hold him to account in court, it will also show what statutes, what criminal
statutes he is being charged with and the potential consequence if he were to be found guilty at the end of the day.
SCIUTTO: We should remind people that James Comey has been a target of this president's going back to the first administration, and he's not the only
target. We have reporting that John Bolton might be subject to prosecution as well. That's the concern here, is it not, that there's a political
dimension to these prosecutions?
POLANTZ: There is enough political conversation to be -- for it to become a dimension of these prosecutions, absolutely. Something we may even hear
about in court from Comey's defense attorneys as they challenge this, that Donald Trump has been calling publicly -- the person atop the executive
branch, calling publicly for the attorney general to prosecute his political enemies, including Comey himself. That was the social media post
over the weekend.
[18:55:00]
Today in the Oval Office, he said Comey is a bad person, a bad man, and that the people of the Justice Department would have to make the decisions
there. We also know that there were prosecutors on this case who had concerns about it and wrote down those concerns on paper. Something else
that Comey's legal team may get access to in the course of a case.
The Bolton situation, that's a little bit different, according to the sources that I'm talking to. That is more of a question of timing, where
the Justice Department leadership, the deputy attorney general's office, they wanted an indictment by the end of the day tomorrow to placate the
president, potentially for his political wishes.
But John Bolton has not been charged yet, and we do understand that there is a fair amount of evidence, at least, that's been collected in the case
from the searches of his home and his office. And that there is the possibility of a case still on the horizon, maybe not by tomorrow, but
later in the year.
SCIUTTO: Well, and we also should note, the previous prosecutor was removed, it seemed, because he was not willing to pursue this case. Katelyn
Polantz, thanks so much.
And thanks so much to all of you for joining us today. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington. You've been watching "The Brief." Please do stay with CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:00:00]
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