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The Brief with Jim Sciutto

CNN International: Argentina Beat England In Men's World Cup; Explosions Reported in Several Iranian Cities; Trump Renews Threat to Strike Iranian Infrastructure; Oil Rises Again as Strait of Hormuz Traffic Plunges; The Future Of Taiwan Security with the U.S. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired July 15, 2026 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[18:00:00]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR, "THE BRIEF": Hello and welcome to our viewers in the U.S. and around the world. I'm Jim Sciutto at the Aspen Security Forum

in Aspen, Colorado.

PAULA NEWTON, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Paula Newton in New York. You are watching "The Brief."

Just ahead for you this hour, Argentina's through to the final of the Men's World Cup after beating England 2-1. Explosions heard in several Iranian

cities. That's according to state media as U.S. Central Command announces new strikes. And as you just heard live from Aspen, Jim speaks with key

figures from Norway, Belgium and Taiwan about the threats facing the state of the world. Those stories and so much more coming up.

All right. It's all set. Final matchup for the Men's World Cup. The European champions Spain will meet Argentina who are looking to defend

their title this very Sunday in New Jersey. That was after England opened the scoring in the second half. Argentina roared back with two late goals

just a few minutes apart to beat England 2-1.

Team captain Lionel Messi who's never played against England in his entire career with Argentina earned two assists putting him back in the lead for

the Golden Boot race ahead of France's captain Kylian Mbappe.

Our Amanda Davies joins us now from the Fan Zone in Atlanta near where the stadium where it all wrapped up a little while ago. Amanda, I have really

wanted to speak to you to let us know how it all went down because in the opening half it seemed that this would be much tighter than the game that

we ended up seeing through to the end.

AMANDA DAVIES, CNN WORLD SPORT: Yes, Paula, I've just run out of the stadium here to the Fan Zone and I mean if there's one thing we've learned

from this Argentina team at this tournament you can just never write them off and we knew they weren't going to be giving up their title as world

champions without a fight particularly against England, but boy, did they turn it into a fight in an absolute cauldron of an atmosphere here at the

Atlanta Stadium.

Honestly, I have never heard or not heard as the case was national anthems like it. It was raucous from both sides. And the England boss, Thomas

Tuchel, had said he was confident that playing Argentina and Leo Messi would bring out the best in his side but there was no way they or Argentina

were able to show it in this challenge.

It was crunching right from the off. You could feel every single moment of the weight of the history and the rivalry between these two sides. It was

dirty, it was hard, I mean it was brutal to watch. I can only imagine what it was like for the players. Neither side really having a chance in the

opening half.

And then, England fans daring to dream when Anthony Gordon put them ahead after 55 minutes with actually a really great move but that is when things

changed. Rather than continuing to push forward Thomas Tuchel decided to go more defensive and 55 to 90 minutes is a very, very long time to defend

against the might of this Argentina side.

As we saw, I was here to see them come back from the brink against Egypt. They had their backs against the wall, against Cape Verde, against

Switzerland. They did it again here. Two fantastic goals, one from Enzo Fernandez, one from Lautaro Martinez in the 92nd minute.

[18:05:00]

And it is another chapter in this incredible rivalry written. It is another Argentina victory. Another England exits at this, the semifinal stage of

the World Cup. Their second in three editions of the tournament. They will go home very, very disappointed feeling it was their best chance yet to

make it back to the final for the first time since 1966. But Argentina and the might of Messi go on to New York to face the European champion Spain.

NEWTON: Yes, and that is quite a matchup going into Sunday. I will say Argentina has never looked invincible but at times everything they do it

just seems inevitable. They are going to get that win. Of course, Spain, they will run into Spain on Sunday. Really set up here for a thriller in

New Jersey. Amanda Davies, thank you so much.

And later in the show, stay with us, we will hear from fans in Argentina. Still partying their hearts out, I'm sure.

Now, we do turn to Iran and the United States that continue to trade fire in the Middle East. U.S. Vice President JD Vance, meanwhile, defending

using diplomacy while speaking on a podcast. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JD VANCE, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: We got to kind of use all tools at our disposal. The military is one tool but diplomacy is another tool. And I'm

very frustrated by the Americans and, frankly, by people in other countries who are like, you cannot negotiate with the Iranians. Well, then what is

your proposal to get people to stop shooting at ships in the Strait of Hormuz? You can bomb them. You can take away their radar. You can take away

some of their drones and some of their missiles. But it's just too easy to fire at ships in the Straits. So, you've got to actually be willing to talk

and to try to figure out the problem.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NEWTON: Vance's comments echoed by President Donald Trump on Fox News, where he once again teased possible talks with Iran.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: We received a call just as I was coming here that they want to meet. They always want to meet.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NEWTON: Now, earlier, House Speaker Mike Johnson announced a massive request for defense funding to the tune of almost $100 billion.

Kevin Liptak joins me now. And, Kevin, as you've reported, what this is costing is definitely top of mind for this Trump administration. And yet

the president says that he will continue to hit Iran harder and harder until they get to that negotiating table.

KEVIN LIPTAK, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Right, and I think that is making it difficult to come up with a firm estimate for just how much this

conflict will cost. The president at this point, I don't think, has a clear view of how much longer this would go.

He was asked earlier today whether he had a deadline for the Iranians to return to the negotiating table. And he said no, he doesn't like to deal

with deadlines. And so, you can see how this at this point is somewhat open-ended.

And you see how the president is now, I think, openly weighing a major escalation. We understand that he has been discussing this behind the

scenes with officials, including in the Situation Room last evening. And you hear in interviews over the last few days the president laying out what

some of those intensifying options might look like, including trying to bomb Peck Axe Mountain, which is believed to be a center of the Iranians'

nuclear program.

The president talking about trying to get underneath that to where some of the tunnels are. He also is now again musing about taking over Kharg

Island, that very critical export point for Iranian oil. Of course, he's talked about that before, but the president again raising that as a

possibility as he tries to sort of cast about for some sort of way to break loose what has essentially become an impasse.

Now, at the same time, you hear him and you hear JD Vance talking about getting the Iranians back to the negotiating table. And I think that speaks

to the reality that you hear a number of officials talking about, which is that unless they can resolve some of these issues diplomatically, this war

is just going to continue on, I think, endlessly.

There is this asymmetric capability that the Iranians still retain, you know, firing off these relatively cheap drones on vessels that are

transiting through the street. They don't have to really cause that much damage or sink them, but they still are able to essentially close the

waterway because ship captains are unwilling to take the risk of trying to transit through.

And unless you get the Iranians to back off of that diplomatically, it will be very difficult to get that waterway reopened. And so, that seems to be

where the president's head is at the moment. Yes, considering these escalatory options and taking steps through these, you know, nightly

airstrikes against Iran to try and soften the ground a little bit if he decides to go in that direction.

[18:10:00]

But at the same time, making clear that it will have to be a diplomatic solution. That brings the conflict to an end, saying today that he thinks

the Iranians want to settle. Whether there's any evidence of that from Tehran, I think, is an open question.

NEWTON: And as I repeat, he has said that before. And yet here we are in this escalatory cycle. Kevin Liptak for us at the White House, grateful to

you.

The Iranian government says more than 30 civilians have been killed in the latest waves of U.S. strikes. It also reports more than 260 people have

been injured, including women and children. CNN cannot independently verify those figures.

The Iranian military says seven service members died when a military base was hit by the U.S. overnight. But Iran insists it has no plans for

negotiations and will defend its soil every inch of the way.

Jim is at the Aspen Security Forum in Colorado. You are with Theo Francken. He is Belgium's minister of defense and foreign trade. Jim, it will be

interesting to see what he says now, especially given, as I said, we are back in an escalatory cycle here.

SCIUTTO: Well, top of the discussion here at the forum is the state of the relationship between the U.S. and its European allies as relates to not

just the Iran war but also the Ukraine war, the future of NATO and trade with ongoing trade disputes between the U.S. and its European trading

partners. So, it's good to have the Belgium minister of both defense and trade, Theo Francken. Thanks so much for joining.

THEO FRANCKEN, BELGIAN MINISTER OF DEFENSE AND FOREIGN TRADE: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: So, the president is again discussing escalating the war with Iran, and he's saying two things at the same time. He's saying we're going

to apply more military pressure, but he says he believes that ultimately Iran wants to negotiate.

The trouble is he's been saying that, and he's had that combination of military action and talk of negotiations for weeks now, and we seem to be

remaining in the same place. Do you believe that the president has a credible plan for the way forward?

FRANCKEN: I believe that the United States is not in a terrible situation. I think that Iran is in a terrible situation, the regime in a terrible

situation. So, just increasing the pressure on the regime is the right thing to do. The ceasefire deal or the peace deal or the agreement that was

signed, it's worth nothing, because this extremist Mullah regime, they always cheat and lie. They never hold their word. So, I think that we --

increasing the pressure again on Iran and on the regime is the right thing to do, yes.

SCIUTTO: The trouble is that the regime seems to have struck on an enormous piece of leverage, and that is its ability to effectively close

the Strait of Hormuz, and the U.S. has carried out a number of strikes on drone facilities, missile facilities, naval assets, et cetera. It's made a

lot of threats. It's attempted to escort some ships through, but the fact is most ships are not getting through, and this, of course, certainly

affects Europe, which imports a lot of its energy. How is that an effective policy if Iran maintains that pressure point?

FRANCKEN: Yes, for the moment they have that pressure point, but they're losing a lot of capabilities every single day. And what is the regime for

the moment? I think there's also internal, in the country, there's a lot of contradictories, and there's a lot of fighting within each other.

So, I think that for me it's unfinished business. The day that they said, oh, we have an agreement, and now there will be a solution for that

conflict, I never believed that that was like a business. This is unfinished business. That is not how this will end, finally.

So, yes, there's an impact on Europe, and there's a problem with the Strait of Hormuz. That's why we have a people ready to go and engage to clear the

Strait from mines. But then again, it's true that tackling Iran, not having a nuclear weapon, and not rebuilding their military to gain a nuclear

weapon is of paramount importance, also for security of Europe, and that is something that everybody has to understand. And this is in the conclusion

of NATO summit in Ankara of last week.

SCIUTTO: So, the question is, though, each of those things you mentioned, ending Iran's nuclear program, taking away its missile capability, and

opening up the Strait, that's all-unfinished business at this point. And one might expect that to accomplish any of those goals or all of those

goals could require an extended military conflict. Is Belgium prepared to participate in such a conflict, or, for instance, you have a mine sweeper

to put its forces and assets at risk for an extended period of time?

FRANCKEN: But I don't think that's a military campaign. For example, boots on the ground will solve this problem. I think that the disadvantage to put

boots on the ground for American troops and Israeli troops are way too high. So, I think that just increasing the pressure by sanctions, by really

also having a good dialogue with all the Gulf nations that are on our side, I think that is also the right thing to do.

[18:15:00]

So, this is not only military campaigning. Yes, it is one of the possibilities, but the most important will be increasing pressure on the

regime and the situation will become impossible for the regime to exist. So, for me, this is unfinished business and we need to be very calm, but

also ready.

SCIUTTO: Tell me about your view of the state of the U.S. security relationship with Europe, particularly as the U.S. reduces forced

deployments in Europe. The president has often publicly criticized NATO, calling it a paper tiger, et cetera. When I speak to other European

officials, they tell me privately, and many say it publicly, they don't trust the U.S. anymore as a truly reliable defense partner. Do you think

that that fear is misplaced?

FRANCKEN: Yes. For me, the United States was very clear from the beginning, for many years actually, they will do the pivots to Asia and to

the Pacific, and they will give the conventional protection of Europe in the hands of European allies. And that's the right thing to do. We were

free riders for way too long.

And I understand the frustration of the American people, OK, now you have to pay it yourself, do it yourself, and Europe can do it. We're doing it,

and we're stepping up every single day. So, we need to do the conventional, the nuclear doctrine of NATO that will be the United States also in the

future. But in the future, Europe needs to step up and the priority also remains Ukraine. And also, that are we doing.

Mr. Zelenskyy is very confident. He's never been more confident since the starting of the war. They're having good gaining position. They have a

winning position. They're doing great job. They're so courageous and fierce fighters. So, I think that the West is doing well. Europe is doing well.

Rome isn't built in one day.

We need more time, but we're doing this. For example, at the industry day of NATO summit last week, we signed -- Belgium only signed 10 contracts and

MOUs for more defense industry collaboration with other European partners. None was the United States was implicated. It was all European defense

industry. So, yes, we will do. I think I can say yes, we can give it some time, but yes, we will do it.

SCIUTTO: Theo Francken, Minister of Defense and Trade for Belgium. We appreciate you joining.

FRANCKEN: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Well, as we've been discussing one key pressure point in the ongoing war with Iran is the price of oil. Oil markets very nervous about

the expectation of escalation in the war coming up. I'm going to speak to the head of the International Energy Agency for his views on what happens

next in the oil markets.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:20:00]

NEWTON: And welcome back to "The Brief." Oil settled modestly higher Wednesday as Iran and the U.S. traded strikes for a fifth straight day.

Crude still trading at one-month highs with Brent firmly above $80 a barrel again.

Now, Iran is still claiming that the Strait of Hormuz is closed while the U.S. says it reimposed its naval blockade of Iranian ports. The site Marine

Traffic says commercial traffic in the Strait fell about 52 percent between Friday and Sunday due to the latest fighting.

We want to head back to Aspen, Colorado now, where Jim is joined by Faith Birol, the executive director of the International Energy Agency. Jim.

SCIUTTO: Thanks so much, Paula, and pleasure to have you here, Mr. Birol. We appreciate you taking the time.

FATIH BIROL, IEA EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: I wonder, as you watch the energy markets and the oil supply, are you preparing for an extended conflict in and around Iran and over the

Strait of Hormuz?

BIROL: We are always prepared for the worst case, but I very much hope that there is a lasting peace in the Middle East because the global economy

can be hurt. We entered this crisis with a very well-supplied oil markets, with a lot of surplus of oil. Second, International Energy Agency released

a big amount of stocks to the markets. And third, there was a lot of effort from some of the Middle East countries, such as Saudi Arabia, for example.

They made a heroic effort. And Emirates, they use alternative routes to bring oil, bypassing the Strait of Hormuz.

They are all OK, but these are not infinitive. So, if the problem is not solved fully and if the state is not open unconditionally, we may well have

some difficult days. So, we are prepared for that. But I would say that the global economy is not off the hook yet.

SCIUTTO: A number of oil analysts and others who watch the market closely have been warning of a supply shock if the war extends too long. How far

out might that be?

BIROL: I mean, it depends on a few factors. For example, United States, here, or Brazil, Kazakhstan, they were able to increase the production,

somehow compensate the loss of oil from Middle East. Again, Saudi Arabia, the Emirates brought from different routes oil to the markets. They are

playing a cushion role for the higher oil prices. But this cannot last very long because global crude stocks are going down.

SCIUTTO: Are we talking weeks, months, until there's a more critical point?

BIROL: I think it depends on what happens in the Strait of Hormuz. Are we going to see some oil going from there or not? But I very much hope that

within weeks of time this problem will be solved.

SCIUTTO: You have said it could take up to two years to recover a significant share of oil and gas production disrupted by the Iran war. I

mean, that would seem to indicate that even if there were a settlement tomorrow, that the hangover from this, there's no relief from that for some

time.

BIROL: Definitely. The assets, energy assets were seriously damaged. Some of them can be repaired quickly, but sometimes we will need more time, such

as the ones maybe in Qatar or in Iraq, if they wait a bit longer to come back to where we were before the 28th of February.

SCIUTTO: Is there a new reality now, as relates to the Strait of Hormuz, that Iran, whatever might agree to in negotiations, that Iran attains the

ability to open and close the Strait when it sees fit?

BIROL: I think this is the issue today. I mean, years and years in the energy markets there was a discussion, what would happen if the Strait of

Hormuz is closed? And many people thought, unlike the idea, that it will never be closed. But now the market believes once it is closed, it can be

closed again.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

BIROL: So, I say it in the -- there's a Turkish proverb, the vase, you know, you put the flowers in, the vase is broken. Once it is broken, you

cannot put it back where it was before. So, it will lead to a major change in the global energy system.

[18:25:00]

Because if you go back to 2022, what happened between Russia and Ukraine, until that time, there were two major arteries bringing energy to the

markets. One from Russia to Europe with the pipelines, and the other one is from the Strait of Hormuz to Asia and the rest of the world. And both of

them are not disrupted.

This is making major waves in the many governments and the several governments are reviewing their energy strategies, looking for new

partnerships, new routes and new technologies.

SCIUTTO: Yes. It's a great point about two major disruptions in the span of just a few years. Fatih Birol, the head of the International Energy

Agency, we appreciate you joining.

BIROL: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: And my colleague, Paula Newton, we'll have the rest of today's headlines shortly.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEWTON: And welcome back to "The Brief." I'm Paula Newton in New York. Here are the international headlines we're watching today.

Iranian state media reports explosions in several cities in the country's south. The U.S. has announced at least two waves of strikes today following

earlier attacks overnight. It says they are aimed at preventing Iranian attacks on ships in the Strait of Hormuz. Sources say President Trump is

now weighing options for expanding military operations in Iran.

President Trump's pick for U.S. attorney general insists the $1.8 dollar fund created to compensate Trump's allies is dead. Todd Blanche was grilled

about that fund and the Epstein files at his confirmation hearing on Capitol Hill Wednesday. Republicans on the Senate Judiciary Panel hold a

razor thin advantage and Blanche will need every single one of their votes in order to be confirmed.

[18:30:00]

President Trump has overturned a temporary pause on vehicle stops by immigration enforcement. This comes just one day after ICE agents were

directed to suspend stops after they shot two immigrants dead in their vehicles. Mr. Trump says the pause would mean giving up one of ICE's most

important and effective tools.

Now, the Aspen Security Forum is underway in Colorado. The event is billed as the premier national security and foreign policy conference. A big

topic, you can be sure, is U.S. strategy on Taiwan. Beijing's ruling Communist Party views the self-governing island as part of its territory,

despite having never controlled it, and has long vowed to reunify the island with the Chinese mainland by force, if necessary.

Jim Sciutto is at the Aspen Security Forum. He joins us again along with Chen Ming-Chi, Taiwan's Deputy Foreign Minister. Jim.

SCIUTTO: Thank you, Paula, and certainly a pleasure to have the opportunity to speak with you. Thanks so much for joining.

CHEN MING-CHI, TAIWAN'S DEPUTY MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS: Oh, thanks for having me.

SCIUTTO: As you know, the topic of China, U.S.-China, and certainly Taiwan, is very top of mind here at this conference, and one question,

there's an enormous amount of curiosity here, is what, and what decision, and when might the U.S. president make the decision on this latest arms

package? Has Taiwan received any update on where that stands?

MING-CHI: Well, first, let me be clear that President Trump already met the largest ever arms sale to Taiwan last year. So, it was the 11 billion

U.S. dollars, I think, in one year. That is such a huge amount. Definitely that is pending upon President Trump's decision, but I think he understand

well that the dire situation in the Taiwan Strait, and Taiwan want to be a part of the maintenance status quo.

But the status quo is highly dynamic, especially given the fact that Taiwan, that China is very aggressive in this area. So, we really need

those capability to meet the challenge that we are having now.

SCIUTTO: Have you been given any assurances by the Trump administration that a decision is coming through, coming soon?

MING-CHI: I mean, like Secretary Rubio said in the congressional hearing, that this is still under review by the president.

SCIUTTO: What was your reaction to President Trump describing the arms package as a bargaining chip in relations with China?

MING-CHI: Well, the -- we think that is a necessity for Taiwan. I mean, it's an encouragement of our American friends that Taiwan is serious about

our defense reform. So, the serious defense reform composed by three piers. One is the Taiwanese are waiting to defend ourselves. Second is about

acquiring the asymmetric capability. Third is about reaching out to our friends and make sure that we share the same vision about the first

security of the first island chain and how to maintain the peace and stability in the Taiwan Strait.

So, I think with these three, especially the second one, that acquirement from the U.S. is very important. And it's urgent, given the fact that China

is building up their military very fast. So, I think that we want to convey the message to the administration. I think, well, they don't really need

that much information from our side. They understand the whole situation very well.

So, we respect that President Trump, his decision is under review. But I want to say that it's urgent need for Taiwan to maintain the stability of

the Taiwan Strait.

SCIUTTO: When you deliver that message, that this is urgent, what reaction do you get?

MING-CHI: Well, I think we have a lot of friends in the administration. They see the whole security situation as we said. I think that is commonly

shared among the administration. So, I'm sure that we are going to get it sooner or later. It's under review, so we respect.

But I have to emphasize that we are ready. We have our own domestic politics. It's a very difficult political discussion that we have. Finally,

we passed partially our special defense budget. The one that got passed is a total is $225 billion. So, last year we already have $11 billion that we

have the money ready there. So, anytime.

SCIUTTO: Of course, politics plays a part in this and the upcoming elections in Taiwan. Are you concerned that if there's a change of party

control in Taiwan, that the new leaders would make Taiwan less safe from China?

[18:35:00]

MING-CHI: Well, you know, we have to be very clear about China threat. About China wants to leverage upon our internal division to their political

advantage. I think that is -- you know, any moderate political leader in Taiwan understands this well. So, we hope that it's a common share among

our political leaders.

In the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, we don't usually comment on the domestic politics.

SCIUTTO: Understood.

MING-CHI: I respect that, but we are a democracy. But I think the most urgent need is a shared understanding of the dire situation of our

security.

SCIUTTO: President Biden said four times during his administration that the U.S. would intervene militarily if China were to attack Taiwan, and

that's the first time the U.S. president said that definitively. Of course, President Trump has not said that.

MING-CHI: We appreciate that.

SCIUTTO: Do you have the same confidence that the U.S. would come to your defense if China were to attack, or do you have less confidence today?

MING-CHI: Well, again, I mean, our defense is no one else but Taiwanese people's own obligation and our duty. So, defend our homeland, our

democratic way of life is important to only Taiwan people (INAUDIBLE) it's difficult for us to fight alone. I expect that the liberal country will

help us in any way. No, I mean, help can come in many ways, training, sharing the information, you know, improve the communication, or, you know,

even economic sanction, that is a part of the help.

So, I will not say that the U.S. will come to Taiwan's military or not. It's up to any administration, but we will remain focused on doing what can

we do.

SCIUTTO: Final question.

MING-CHI: Yes.

SCIUTTO: What is the degree of the threat today that China would take military action to attempt to reclaim Taiwan? Is it an imminent threat?

MING-CHI: I mean, I would not say it's an imminent threat, but the threat comes with two forms. One is the D-Day situation. OK. The other one is that

we are facing everyday situation, you know, constant military exercise around Taiwan. Or just recently, they have yet another Coast Guard

maneuvering in the eastern coast, and make some law enforcement behavior. I think that's highly dangerous, and getting in the way to keep Taiwan Strait

open.

If the Hormuz -- the Strait of Hormuz is that important, think about what if Taiwan Strait is closed. So, we want to make sure that we have the

capability and we have the determination to remain open. We respect the freedom of navigation and the flight by rights. So, we want to use this

with a new capability with the determination of our people to maintain a status quo.

SCIUTTO: Chen Ming-chi, Deputy Foreign Minister of Taiwan, we appreciate you joining the program.

MING-CHI: Thank you very much for having me.

SCIUTTO: Well, we talked about the potential Chinese threat to Taiwan. There is enormous concern in Europe about the Russian threat, not just to

Ukraine, but possibly to NATO as well. Coming up, I speak with the military chief, the defense chief of Norway, with his quite serious concerns about

the Russian threat.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:40:00]

SCIUTTO: Here at the Aspen Security Forum in Aspen, Colorado, top of mind for many of the visiting officials from Europe, from Asia, and from the

Trump administration. Is the Russian threat, not just to Ukraine, but also potentially to Europe.

I spoke with the chief of defense of Norway's Armed Forces, Eirik Kristoffersen. His recent warning that Russia poses a possible invasion

threat to Norway itself. Here's our conversation.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

EIRIK KRISTOFFERSEN, NORWEGIAN DEFENSE CHIEF: So, I base it on the fact that Russia's dependence on the Kola Peninsula, their nuclear deterrence,

their submarine fleet just outside the border of Norway, is of vital interest to Russia. And to protect that complexity of military power, they

always have that concept they call the bastion defense. The bastion defense means extending their defensive line into also Norwegian territorial

waters, but also in the case of a real situation, you could also see a threat to the Norwegian mainland.

So, it's all proximity to Russia, and also their reliance on their military power in that area, that is also a concern for Norway.

SCIUTTO: You often hear when officials or others raise the possibility of Russia attacking NATO, you will hear some skeptics who say, listen, Russia

has had enough trouble with Ukraine, they couldn't challenge NATO countries, and therefore that risk is exaggerated. What do you say? Do you

think those people are underestimating the risk from Russia?

KRISTOFFERSEN: I think we never should underestimate Russia. We should always calculate that Russia is a very capable power. But definitely the

attack on Ukraine in February 2022 was a strategic mistake for Russia. But because of that attack, Russia is also more isolated. They are suffering

from the war in Ukraine, and they are now also looking at how to protect their military bases against Ukrainian drone attacks all over Russia.

So, when you look at the future for Russia, there's a lot of uncertainty. The only thing that is certain is that they will rely heavily on their

deterrence, and that deterrence is not directed towards Norway, it's directed towards the United States, Central Europe, and main allies from

Norway.

SCIUTTO: OK. Let's talk, if we can, about the relationship between the U.S. and NATO right now. Because as you know, this administration is quite

public about reducing U.S. force deployments in Europe. But even you have attacks from the president against allies, and raising questions about

whether the U.S. should be involved in Europe's defense to the degree that it was in the past.

Do you view that, does Norway view that as a reduction in U.S. support, or really a break between the U.S. and NATO?

KRISTOFFERSEN: I view it, and I think I have my government with me on that, is that the U.S. expects Europe and Norway to do more for their

conventional deterrence, against Russia especially, and also to increase their defense spending.

And at the same time, the U.S. is our most important ally, and the U.S. is very clear on that they will also continue to be the backstop, the nuclear

deterrence that they guarantee for our security from the US. So, we see it as an expression of impatience for Europeans to do more for their own

security, and right now it has had an effect.

[18:45:00]

So, the defense budget in Norway, since I took over as the chief of defense in 2020, was tripled by 2025, and we're continuing our path towards 3.5

percent on defense spending. So, I think we have understood the message. NATO, Europe has understood it. We need to do more for our own conventional

deterrence. And we see that the U.S. is continuously backing the alliance with their nuclear deterrence and their capabilities.

SCIUTTO: I do hear from some European officials that even when they increase their defense spending, that they don't get in return what they

expect, right? That they feel that they're meeting these goals. First it was 2 percent, now it's 5 percent, but that they don't get, for lack of a

better phrase, love from the Trump administration. Do you think that that's a fair assessment?

KRISTOFFERSEN: I heard President Trump saying in Ankara that there was a lot of love in the room. On the military side, our job is to deter Russia,

especially in Europe, and also to be able to defend if necessary.

So, when I've been visiting the U.S., I went to see Northern Command in Colorado Springs, Homeland Defense, and we all understand that your

homeland defense in the U.S. starts on the Norwegian border with Russia. I'm working very closely with EUCOM, with General Grynkewich there, and we

continue to do our military job, which is to keep the alliance strong, keep the alliance together, and be very clear towards Russia that an attack on

one ally is an attack on all, and I think that has an effect also on President Putin.

SCIUTTO: One thing that President Trump has apparently not given up is his interest in not just increasing security in Greenland, but possibly taking

possession of Greenland for the United States, and he had comments in Beijing about this once again. If he were to stick to that, would that be a

breaking point for the alliance?

KRISTOFFERSEN: So, Norway is very clear that Greenland is part of the Kingdom of Denmark, and it's Greenland themselves that have to decide their

future. I understand the need to increase presence in Greenland, both from NATO but also from the US, and the U.S. has all the agreements in place

from the Cold War to establish those bases.

My concern is not so much on Greenland, my concern is more on further east, where the Russian submarines slip through the GIUK Gap and into the

Atlantic Ocean. So, our focus is, of course, on the North Atlantic, on the Arctic, but especially on the Kola Peninsula, and the capabilities Russia

has to also use new submarines to threaten the Atlantic, basically, from the Kola Peninsula.

SCIUTTO: But if the President demanded that the U.S. take Greenland, what would Norway's response be?

KRISTOFFERSEN: It would be very hard to imagine that that would happen. So, it's a hypothetical question.

SCIUTTO: He said it.

KRISTOFFERSEN: Yes, he said it. But it would be basically something that would be totally new to the alliance. It has never happened before. It's a

political question what they should do about that, but I can't imagine that happening. But I understand that we need to do more for Arctic security,

and that is what is happening now.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: My conversation there with Norway's defense chief. Well, coming up, heartbreak in England, celebration in Argentina after Argentina's

thrilling victory in yet another hard-fought World Cup clash. That's right after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:50:00]

NEWTON: The crowd went understandably wild in Buenos Aires as Argentina shocked England with a 2-1 win in their World Cup semifinal. Argentina made

a dramatic comeback, of course they did, with two goals in the final minutes of the game sending England home. Argentina now defending their

title in the final match on Sunday against Spain. That will be here in the U.S. in New Jersey.

Stefano Pozzebon joins us now again from Buenos Aires. Stefano, I mean, look, this wasn't even the most dramatic comeback that Argentina had to

pull off to stay in this tournament, but now all eyes on how they're going to do it against Spain.

STEFANO POZZEBON, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, all eyes on how to do it again, how to repeat it a third time the charm, perhaps, after those comebacks

against Switzerland and England, but every person in this nation is preparing themselves for what is happening on Sunday.

We're back with you from the same Fan Zone where a couple of hours ago you see me surrounded by screaming fans jumping literally on top of me, but now

it's busy time for the workers of the Buenos Aires City Hall who are cleaning all the Fan Zone and preparing for the Fan Zone to be open again

tomorrow morning for fans to come here, take selfies, be one of those many rituals that many Argentinians do when it comes to football.

And then, of course, the date we have is here again on Sunday afternoon, 4:00 p.m. Argentina time, it will be 3:00 p.m. in New York, but it will be

when of course Argentina will face Spain for the final and for the glory.

For this nation, by the way, it's a fourth attempt -- it's an attempt to the fourth star, the fourth World Cup victory after winning in 1978, '86

with Maradona of course, then 2022 the last one with Lionel Messi against France and the penalties, and when perhaps now they can become the first

side to win two World Cups in a row since I think it was Brazil with Pele in the '50s that won two in a row.

So, of course a lot of pressure on the Argentinian national football team, a lot of pressure on Messi himself, could it be his last football match on

Sunday? Perhaps, he's 39, we know that this is almost certainly to be the last World Cup of Messi, the captain of the Argentinian team, perhaps he

will decide to give up, hang his boots once and for all if he indeed wins a second World Cup gold medal. Paula.

NEWTON: He has had absolutely stellar play now, Stefano, as you're speaking, we are still looking at thousands of people in another location

on the streets in Buenos Aires. I am wondering what the feeling is there though, is it supremely confident that their team will get this done or is

it with the apprehension and nervousness? Because all fans are different that way, right? I feel like when you look at Argentina it seems like it's

inevitable for them, they feel like somehow their team will get it done.

POZZEBON: Yes, definitely the people who are up there at the Obelisco, which is another location in Buenos Aires, like you said, those will be the

fans that will feel confident, those will be the fans that said, we've been here again, we've seen Messi do it in 2022, we can clearly do it again.

And perhaps, I mean, the belief comes from the way that Argentina built a momentum in this World Cup after struggling in the pool stage, barely

making it through the first rounds in the knockout, and then that stunning comeback against Egypt, down 2-nil, and then coming back against Egypt with

three goals, almost completely in extra time, and then now again against England.

[18:55:00]

England taking the lead on the 55th minute, then Enzo Fernandez scoring the equalizer on the 87th, and then, of course, it was Lautaro Martinez, on an

assist from Lionel Messi, to score the header that put Argentina through into the final.

Clearly there is the confidence, clearly there is an almost inevitability that Argentina will perform when it comes to the World Stage. They were

there in 2014, they were eliminated in 2018, they didn't make it to the final, they were, of course, in the final again in 2022, and now in 2026.

It's been 12 years and four World Cups that Argentina really makes it through almost to -- the only exception is the 2014 -- 2018 of course. So,

clearly there is confidence, there is belief --

NEWTON: Stefano, my friend, you have done a good job of extending your stay there in Argentina. We will look forward to more of your reporting,

but again all the action happens here in the United States, in New Jersey. I'm sure New York City will be rocking for both Spanish fans and Argentina

fans. Stefano, thank you to you for staying up late for us.

And I want to thank you for your company. I'm Paula Newton in New York. You have been watching "The Brief." Stay with CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:00:00]

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