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Table For Five
CNN Saturday Morning Table for Five. Judge Blocks President Trump from Adding His Name to Kennedy Center; Department of Justice Under Trump Administration Accused of Targeting President's Opponents; Republican Ken Paxton and Democrat James Talarico Square Off in Texas Senate Race; President Trump Criticized for Costs of His Many Building Projects Around Washington D.C.; Conan O'Brien Gives Commencement Speech to College Grads Warning Them against Narcissism. Aired 10-11a ET
Aired May 30, 2026 - 10:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[10:00:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR: Today, a Texas tango. Despite the name calling --
KEN PAXTON, (R) TEXAS SENATE NOMINEE: I've even heard some people call him James Tala-freako.
PHILLIP: -- and the vegan swipes --
JAMES TALARICO, (D) TEXAS SENATE NOMINEE: I've been eating barbecue since before Ken Paxton's first indictment.
PHILLIP: -- why the lone star state will be a huge test for Democrats and Donald Trump.
Plus, the president's retribution tour takes an unprecedented new turn. How the feds are now targeting one of his accusers.
Also --
DONALD TRUMP, (R) U.S. PRESIDENT: We're now covering it with the most beautiful blue.
PHILLIP: From the reflecting pool to the UFC cage, are Trump's pet projects tone deaf as Americans struggle.
And --
CONAN O'BRIEN, COMEDIAN: We are living through a period of extreme narcissism.
PHILLIP: Conan O'Brien diagnoses the ills of American society and its politics.
Here in studio, Toure, Peter Meijer, Lydia Moynihan, and John Avlon.
It's the weekend. Join the conversation at a "TABLE FOR FIVE".
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Hi, everyone. I'm Abby Phillip.
Donald Trump's brazen sequel is being slowed by the long arm of the law. In just the last 24 hours, judges blocked his proposed $1.8 billion fund to compensate those he claimed were unfairly prosecuted, and that includes the January 6th rioters. Now, this comes after several lawsuits, and then this move to add his name to the Kennedy Center, which was already done physically, has been reversed. A judge says that only Congress can approve a name change, and the letters have to be removed in the next two weeks.
This is the M.O. of the Trump administration part two -- do the thing, wait for the courts to slap your wrist and tell you that you can't do it. And so in some ways, I'm sure they expected some of this, but what does it tell you about where we are and what they've been up to?
JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: The courts are trying to keep the guardrails of American democracy, decency, common sense in place. They're being actively subverted by this president and this administration at the president's request. And we are going to need to, going forward to actually take the democratic norms that were just accepted through principled leadership and decency and actually codify them in law. But thank God the courts are to some extent doing their job, because our democracy depends on it.
PHILLIP: Congress MIA.
TOURE, SUBSTACK AUTHOR, "CULTURE FRIES BY TOURE": This does remind me of, like, a New Yorker's typical attitude to the world, like ask for forgiveness instead of permission. We did it and then found out, oh, we couldn't do it.
AVLON: It's not a New Yorkers thing. That's like a bug thing. It's a mafia thing.
(CROSS TALK)
LYDIA MOYNIHAN: Alpha male.
MEIJER: Some of the things that the courts have told him before you can't do, he just continued to do them, right. So then this is very concrete. Are you going to actually get up there in the next two weeks and take these letters off, or are you going to defy the courts?
PHILLIP: I mean, it is, the whole Kennedy Center thing was so brazen to begin with. It's literally a constitutionally -- or a congressionally created monument to an assassinated former president. And then he just slaps his name on it. The judge is so straightforward about this. He says, in the opinion, "the Kennedy Center's organic statute makes it crystal clear that the center is to be named for President Kennedy. Congress gave the Kennedy Center its name and only Congress can change it."
Why is the Trump administration so brazen, it's the only way to put it, brazenly flouting the red letter of the law? It's just right there in black and.
MOYNIHAN: Have you met Donald Trump? There is a name for all of this. This was their strategy, to flood the zone, to try and do as much as quickly as possible, because there is an understanding when you get into a company or an administration, you really only have a finite period of time before the gears sort of slow to a stop. Now, this specifically --
PHILLIP: Also just, lawlessness, isn't that the other word for it?
MOYNIHAN: This specifically, no, I mean, look, I am not going to die on the hill of whether or not we should rename the Kennedy Center. I don't think most Americans, frankly, really care either. We do know that Donald Trump loves to brand things, loves to put his name on buildings.
(CROSS TALK)
[10:05:06]
MOYNIHAN: You know what? This is not this is not something that I feel or have lost any sleep over.
AVLON: The answer is yes.
MOYNIHAN: -- or feel keenly about it.
TOURE: When you said there's a word for it, I thought you were going to say "fascism," because that's what fascists tend to do.
MOYNIHAN: OK. I mean, I will say it's a little ironic for Democrats to be flipping out over renaming things. We went through years where George Washington, Abraham Lincoln's name, were taken off various monuments. So I don't because of --
AVLON: What Democratic president did that or member of Congress or governor?
MOYNIHAN: This was widely done.
AVLON: Crazy ass members of the school board who were then removed in San Francisco by the voters for doing that. Yes.
MOYNIHAN: It happened widely, then. I didn't lose sleep over it then. I'm not losing sleep over it now, and again, I don't think most Americans --
AVLON: I was pretty pissed about it.
MOYNIHAN: This is not what's going to get them to the ballot box, for better or for worse. PHILLIP: The president is also, it seems, ticking his way through the
list of people that he wants to see prosecuted. His DOJ apparently has opened an investigation into E. Jean Carroll who filed a civil suit against Trump for sexual assault, and Trump was found liable for sexual abuse in that case.
It also, you know, we've learned that part of that case isn't just about E. Jean Carroll. It's also investigating the democratic donor Reid Hoffman. And Hoffman just responded at the end of the week, he said, "Trump cannot be allowed to use the full weight and power of the U.S. government to come after women who speak up or anyone who supports them in doing so." He says, "The accusation of me is absurdly false, and the premise of this investigation would be laughable if the subject matter weren't so serious."
I mean, it does seem transparent that Trump would want his accuser, who won a massive settlement against him, to then be investigated, and it's -- if it were just this one thing, it would be one thing. But there's such a long list of people that he's had his eye on who have now been investigated or prosecuted. How long is this going to continue? And at what point does it go beyond just, well, Trump's going to be Trump, and it becomes something else?
PETER MEIJER, CO-FOUNDER AND HEAD OF STRATEGY, THE NEW INDUSTRIAL CORPORATION: I think the feeling on the right is that when the Republicans are in the crosshairs, every stone will be unturned, every potential infraction will be looked at. It doesn't matter if it would have been disregarded in the past if you did something wrong and you're a Republican or on the right side of the aisle, the book is going to get thrown at you. And during the Biden years, the delta between January 6th prosecutions and those of folks who were in the Black Lives Matter protests, there were some very striking departures from normal standards.
TOURE: What?
PHILLIP: That's not true. I mean, that's really not true.
MEIJER: A lot of folks who were charged --
TOURE: Are you alleging January 6th is similar to Black Lives Matter?
MEIJER: I'm alleging that there was a very clear delta between who was granted clemency or forgiveness --
PHILLIP: Also dozens, maybe even hundreds of people. You can look it up. The press release is still on the DOJ's website. People, many, many people, dozens, maybe even hundreds were prosecuted federally in the Black Lives Matter protests. So that actually did in fact happen.
MEIJER: No, but let me be very -- I'm not saying there were no prosecutions. I'm saying --
PHILLIP: I know, some of the Republicans --
MEIJER: You guys are making a point that I'm not making. PHILLIP: But here's the thing. I get that some Republicans say maybe
they weren't prosecuted to the extent that they should have. A lot of those cases that you're talking about were either pled down or whatever at the state level or at the local level. It's not necessarily at the federal level.
But the other thing is, you know, what about just the rule of law? I mean, these January 6ers went through trials. Sometimes the government asked for sentences that they did not get because judges said, you know, that's going too far. They went through a process. And the only person who circumvented a process is Trump by pardoning all of them.
MEIJER: Which I disagree with, especially on the violent cases. I think the challenge is, and this is where I'm arguing the perception, that on the right, there has been more selective prosecution or any stone unturned. It is the law for thee. If you're my friends, then we can talk about leniency. And that's where, you know, at the end of the day, if E. Jean Carroll, if there was nothing --
PHILLIP: But don't you have to have proof of that before you say that? I mean, where is the leniency.
MOYNIHAN: With, OK, with E. Jean Carroll, just to briefly go over her case, what the DOJ is arguing is that she made a bunch of false accusations.
MEIJER: Theoretically arguing. It's people saying. Nothing is official.
MOYNIHAN: Yes. It's still being reported at this point. Nothing is official. It's widely reported by CNN and other outlets. Basically, she was claiming that an incident happened in 1993, 1994. She didn't have any specific date --
PHILLIP: But that's not what this is about.
MOYNIHAN: I know. But let me just walk through this case real briefly. This case was kind of insane the way it was ruled. So she --
(CROSS TALK)
TOURE: No, this is about Donald Trump.
MOYNIHAN: -- was wearing a dress in in that she bought in 1982. The style wasn't even until 1996. Trump tried to defend himself, then he's --
PHILLIP: But Lydia, Trump doesn't get to relitigate a case that was already taken to a jury and that was that was tried --
MOYNIHAN: Right, and he's not relitigating. He's not relitigating. He's looking at whether or not --
[10:10:00]
PHILLIP: But why are you relitigating it? That's what I don't understand.
MOYNIHAN: I think, here. So I will say, I think there's a question, obviously, what you're getting at, Abby, is there a legal justification? And then what is the political perception? I actually do think if you look at the E. Jean Carroll, now there is new evidence coming to light. She says that Reid Hoffman had nothing to do with it. It turns out he may have. So that's what they're looking at. But I will acknowledge, but I will acknowledge, I will acknowledge the perception for Trump is problematic. I will acknowledge that.
TOURE: This is beyond perception. This is about the weaponization of the DOJ against people who Trump does not like, against his enemies, what dictators do. Hence, we also have this going on with Jim Comey, also with Letitia James. You showed the graphic with tons of names, people he doesn't like. He's using the DOJ to attack. There's no actual legal basis for this attack. And whether or not this works out for people in the end is immaterial, because they're going to have to spend a lot of money and spend a lot of their time fighting. This is the lawfare that the right talks about being used against Trump.
PHILLIP: I just want to make one quick, one quick point, a clarification of something that you said, and none of this that were talking about here as it relates to E. Jean Carroll is new. This idea that Reid Hoffman paid for some of her legal expenses was brought to a judge. It was dealt with in the context of the case. And the judge heard the arguments and said it does not impinge on her credibility. So that part of it also has been --
MEIJER: Credible as a witness versus whether or not she --
PHILLIP: Sure, but it was -- but she was saying, this is new. None of this is new. We've known about this for years. And the judge dealt with these same allegations in the course of this, of this case.
AVLON: Abby, I'm just doubly confused, because I thought I heard the acting attorney general say the entire point of the $1.8 billion slush fund was to ensure that no one was ever prosecuted and persecuted unfairly for political purposes. Now, obviously that's B.S. Obviously, if a Democratic president did it, Lydia would be upset. So would peter. So would I.
But what this is, is we know from Reuters, over 400 individuals and institutions and organizations who have been deemed critical of Trump have been targeted by the DOJ. And we've even got the receipts of Trump asking for it. So this is, if you're really concerned about weaponization of the DOJ, of prosecuting political enemies, which is the whole reason he's trying to steal taxpayer money to give to his allies, then this should piss you off. And if it doesn't, that says more loudly that perhaps it's partisan, not principled.
PHILLIP: All right, next for us, right now, it's all about name calling and veganism. But is the Texas Senate race a bellwether for both the Democrats and Donald Trump?
Plus, as the president builds a UFC cage on the White House lawn for his birthday, troops are invited, but only if they're not overweight. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[10:17:34]
PHILLIP: Is Texas becoming a bellwether for the fate of Democrats and also the president? More Republicans are worried that Texas could go blue, at least for one of its Senate seats after Donald Trump's pick won his face off against longtime Senator John Cornyn. Ken Paxton's resume of scandals is a long list, from bribery to fraud. And the Democratic candidate, a young voice in the party, James Talarico. He's a presbyterian seminarian. He's appeared on FOX and on Joe Rogan, who has hosted him on his podcast. And already Republicans are trying to brand him as a vegan, which he says is false, and is giving him a new nickname.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEN PAXTON, (R) TEXAS SENATE NOMINEE: I've even heard some people call him James Tala-freako.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Talarico is taking one of those attacks head on. He's walking back his comments in the past that suggested that there are multiple genders.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMES TALARICO, (D) TEXAS SENATE NOMINEE: I know there are two sexes, men and women. I also know there's a very small percentage of people who have these chromosomal abnormalities, and I believe they deserve to be treated with dignity and respect.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: I guess I should say they also have been making Tala-freako t-shirts in the Talarico campaign to hand out to their supporters. The veganism thing is so interesting because I think it tells you everything that you need to know about where the race is headed politically in terms of what Republicans are going to do.
Ken Paxton's argument is basically this guy is a threat to our way of life. He said that pretty much explicitly. And I don't know. I mean, it's Texas, so maybe that's actually a decent argument.
TOURE: I mean, I guess. I mean, you know, I would assume that Paxton is going to win. This is Texas. This is a Republican in Texas. It's a bellwether for where we are as a country. This is a person who has committed fraud, felonies, infidelity, impeached in Texas. And yet and still all it takes is being MAGA, and they will vote for you. You can be -- and Trump showed us this.
And I thought, Trump does it with this appeal, this charisma, this funniness that like, this humor that pulls people in. Does it work when you don't have that sort of personality behind the MAGA? And so far, we see they don't care. You can be a terrible person as long as you're MAGA, they'll vote for you.
MEIJER: As long as you have a nazi tattoo it doesn't matter if you're a Democrat, we'll vote for you right?
AVLON: Whoa, whoa, whoa. Let's stay in Texas right now.
MEIJER: OK, I'm just -- sorry.
[10:20:00]
AVLON: The whataboutism is not a response to Ken Paxton.
The reality is --
PHILLIP: Well, I mean, it's not an unfair point.
TOURE: Yes, it is. I would argue it is because --
PHILLIP: Voters, voters are clearly in a lot of parts of the country, they don't care about the --
AVLON: So I would argue, I would argue a tattoo is different than being, you know, charged with 20 counts of braud (ph) and fribery (ph) -- I'm sorry, fraud and bribery, that even Republicans voted to impeach him as the sitting attorney general of Texas, who cheated on his wife. OK. So I mean, that all matters that's relevant, a lot more relevant than a tattoo.
MEIJER: Potentially being a nazi is pretty bad.
AVLON: Whoa.
TOURE: Oh, wow.
MEIJER: The veganism, whether or not he's a vegan. He was like, oh, my campaign is going meatless. It's like, all right, like that, maybe he didn't include dairy, right? So it could just be vegetarianism.
MOYNIHAN: Or honey.
MEIJER: Or honey.
But what you're seeing is Republicans looking at a lot of statements that were made in, you know, the 2019, 2020, 2021 phase, no different than Kamala Harris when she was running for president and being like, hey, remember that ACLU thing where you said that you would use taxpayer dollars to pay for transition surgery for incarcerated inmates? Like, you signed that?
PHILLIP: Is there a difference between that, is there a difference between that which you might argue is some kind of policy critique, and this from Stephen Miller, which seems to be just a straight up ad hominem attack.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) STEPHEN MILLER, WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF: I think it is very bold, one could even say brave, courageous, that the Democratic Party would choose Texas of all places to nominate their first transgender Senate candidate, who is clearly transitioning into a female.
You know, when Talarico goes in for a blood test, when he gets a physical, blood doesn't come out. Instead, soy milk comes out. This man has less testosterone than Jasmine Crockett. It is a mindboggling choice. They would they would choose a person to run for that office who looks like he doesn't belong in the Senate, but in a cabaret show.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TOURE: It's mindboggling, it's mindboggling that you would be able to call somebody transgender as a slur, and this is OK. That is completely unacceptable language.
PHILLIP: Well, I mean, Lydia, where is the policy? Where's the kitchen table issues? Where's the money in my pocket, the price of gas in anything that he just said?
MOYNIHAN: I mean, we can look at some of the policies that he has on his website. He's opposed to school choice. He wants higher taxes for everyone. But I think obviously in politics it is about perception. And it's not just one or two sound bites. There are many, many of them. I mean, he thinks that the Bible supports abortion. He thinks that white people take racism wherever they go. He thinks that there are six genders. He said that on camera. He calls women neighbors with a uterus. I mean, this is pretty woke, progressive stuff that's kind of out there anywhere, particularly in -- particularly in Texas, where people are much more conservative.
And Ken Paxton has already cut an ad highlighting the fact that he said, you know, this is -- our border is the front porch, and we should have a welcome mat. I mean, the things that he's saying --
PHILLIP: The other part of that is a welcome mat and a knock on the door.
MOYNIHAN: He hasn't walked back -- he hasn't walked back --
PHILLIP: So there is another part of that.
MOYNIHAN: He hasn't walked back any of those comments.
But I also want to address John's point. I want to address John's point though, because, I want to address John's, I want to address John's point, though, because, yes, Paxton is a flawed candidate. There are definitely flawed candidates in the Republican Party. But it's not just the guy with the nazi tattoo. It's also the Hezbollah supporter in Michigan who looks like he's going to win who won't condemn the ayatollah. It's the former Al Qaeda volunteer in New Jersey. It's the woman in Texas who said Zionists should be put in concentration camps. Yes, there are some laws, but I will I will take ken Paxton any day over a terrorist sympathizer who Democrats continue to platform. So that's my concern. AVLON: I seem to recall one of the people you just mentioned lost the
primary. But I think obviously the point is Ken Paxton. Now, the question is, do you agree with what Stephen Miller said? Because I got a sense you were uncomfortable with it, because it probably didn't seem honest or fair to you?
MEIJER: Is he a surrogate for --
AVLON: No, no, I'm just, I'm just asking. Because the other thing, of course, is it's not just that Ken Paxton is flawed. It's that corruption, bribery, infidelity, fraud, what Republicans have condemned is a real issue. And he was a Democrat --
MOYNIHAN: To be clear, Biden's DOJ did decline to prosecute him. They had the option to go after him on that front. Look, I wish that we only had boy scouts in politics. I totally wish we did. But I will take Ken Paxton any day over a Hezbollah and an Iranian sympathizer.
AVLON: Right, right, but is James Talarico any of those things?
MEIJER: We don't know what James Talarico --
AVLON: That that is ridiculous, Peter. That is so ridiculous.
MEIJER: I'm not accusing of being that.
AVLON: You're better than that. You're better than that.
MEIJER: No, he has been -- what you're seeing here is you're seeing a candidate trying to sprint away from positions that were adopted. And we don't know what positions were sincere.
AVLON: The guy, the guy rose to national prominence because very quickly because he was an avowedly religious Democrat. And that is a contradiction in many people's minds, unfortunately. I would argue that actually a New Testament faith is actually flows pretty clearly to progressive values.
[10:25:01]
But that is one of the things that made him have an appeal beyond the stereotype of the Democratic brace that you put forward. So this is not a guy who has been like a far left identity politics, you know, warrior. This is a guy who has been talking about he's a seminarian --
MOYNIHAN: Really. God is non-binary seems pretty woke. What are these kitchen table politics.
AVLON: Is God a man or a woman, Lydia?
MOYNIHAN: God is not non-binary.
AVLON: But is man or woman. Because I'm curious if that's not the case. I'm just, which one.
MOYNIHAN: Look, I'm not a Texas voter. I am not a Texas voter, so it doesn't matter what I think. I'm saying, I don't think the vast majority of Texans are on board with the way that he approaches his religion. I mean, when he was asked, what do you like besides your family and friend, trans kids? I mean, this is not in line with what the vast majority of Texans say. I'm a Texas voter. You don't have to win me over.
AVLON: I know.
MOYNIHAN: But he has to win them over. And I don't know if he's going to -- I don't know if he's going to pull it out.
TOURE: Trans is the acceptable racism that we can say whatever, we can call cis people trans. And that's OK. And neither of you are upset about that. That is completely ridiculous.
PHILLIP: All right.
MOYNIHAN: What?
TOURE: That's what Stephen Miller said. And neither of you care.
MOYNIHAN: Neither one of us are defending, like we're not --
TOURE: Yes because you zoomed to a whole other issue.
MOYNIHAN: Because we're talking about the candidates.
TOURE: That was the most offensive thing that Stephen Miller.
MOYNIHAN: We were talking about Talarico.
TOURE: But no, we were talking about Stephen Miller. And the most offensive thing that was said was that. Calling a cis person trans, as that is a horrible thing to be, that is disgusting. That is completely unacceptable in 2026. And why he would say that on television and it's OK is mindboggling.
PHILLIP: All right, we will leave it there.
Next for us, the president is working his way through his punch list of construction projects and work that he wants done in Washington, D.C., but the affordability crisis has a lot of Americans questioning what exactly his priorities are. We'll debate next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[10:31:20]
WHITFIELD: Sometimes you've got to wonder whether Donald Trump should have run for D.C. mayor instead of president of the United States, or perhaps for a new show on HGTV. The president seems to talk more about his pet projects than policy, from his ballroom to the marble walkway at the White House to the Kennedy Center and his triumphal arch. But this week, it's his reflecting pool makeover that's getting his attention. The renovation even scored him a comparison to these guys.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETE HEGSETH, DEFENSE SECRETARY: Washington and Lincoln, these are two men that face monumental tasks and stood up in historic fashion and delivered for the American people. And when you step back and look at 47 years of what Iran waged war against us and our people, there's only one man over the course of both presidencies who has stood up and said they will never get a nuclear weapon.
And so when you authorized Operation Epic Fury, just like you talked about with the reflecting pool, we didn't do the same old thing the way we'd done it in the past.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: That's quite the pivot. But speaking of reflecting pools, we learned that the no bid contractor in charge of that renovation is reportedly getting an inflated profit margin. In other words, he's making an excessive amount of cash on this project. And on top of all of that, just take a look at this extraordinary before and after picture. Not only is there a big hole where the East Wing used to be, but now there is a UFC cage being constructed on the south lawn of the White House. There is a lot going on in Washington, I'm not going to lie, in the way of construction projects, in the way of really important things that matter to the American people, and the juxtaposition, I feel like, is the problem. That is the problem, that Americans are like, OK, why is he talking about the reflecting pool for 10 minutes? Meanwhile, were at war with Iran, and gas is $4 a gallon. Like, none of these things make sense.
MEIJER: But all of this is happening in advance of the 250th anniversary of the founding of this country coming up in July. And God forbid a man have some hobbies. I mean, this guy likes to build. He likes to do things. There's the article about the gold leaf on the statues, which the statues had gold leaf. They needed to be replaced. It went to a contractor in Maryland who'd done the Wyoming capital building.
PHILLIP: Weren't they bronze?
MEIJER: But they were they were gold leaf covering on the bronze statues. That was their original design. This was not this was not the Oval Office like throwing gold leaf in places where it wasn't.
PHILLIP: Really? I mean, I get it, yes, in an ideal world, let's just throw all the money at all the things like. Yes, I want all the fountains. I've lived, I lived in D.C. for a long time.
MEIJER: D.C. should look nice. It's out capital.
PHILLIP: I want the fountains to be fixed. That is a good thing. However, it's a question of priorities for the American people. And, you know --
MEIJER: Walk and chew gum.
PHILLIP: OK, 24 karat gold on these statues, which will cost reportedly, you know, a lot of money. It's millions and millions of dollars. The reflecting pool went from being one point something million dollars to being $13 million. The East Wing went from being, what was it, $100 million, he said at first, to $300 million.
AVLON: To $1 billion.
PHILLIP: To $1 billion at one point. Is it just Monopoly money to the president at this point? We just got through DOGE when they fired, you know, a bunch of federal employees claiming that every penny mattered. And now nothing matters?
MOYNIHAN: Well, I actually think having a beautiful capital city that people are proud of is important. And he has made it safer. He's made it more beautiful. This is sort of the broken window theory, that people are much more respectful. There's lower crime when things are safer and more beautiful to look at.
I will say, at least on the point of the contract, I mean, under Obama, it was $35 million that he invested into the pool, and it still leaked like a sieve. So I think $13 million is a lot less.
[10:35:07]
And these are, when you look at the overall budget, I mean, these are pennies when you consider what Democrats are proposing spending trillions of dollars. And I will also say, I will also say that, look, there are things he does every day, whether it's whether --
PHILLIP: I would buy that argument if we weren't stopping funding for HIV/AIDS programs in Africa and hunger for kids on the argument that every million dollars matters. I would get it.
MOYNIHAN: There are things that we do every day, finding fraud, Trump RX producing drugs. There's all kinds of policies like that that he's implementing that are good, and we're just not talking about them.
TOURE: We can't afford childcare. He told us that we don't have money for childcare.
MOYNIHAN: How much would that cost?
TOURE: We have 50.
MOYNIHAN: How much would that cost?
TOURE: We have $50 billion plus for this war that came out of nowhere, right? We have $6 gas. New York City, Brooklyn, $6 gas today
MOYNIHAN: You do realize that would cost more than $13 million.
TOURE: But we are doing -- but why would we do those things when we are at war, when we have a sinking economy?
MOYNIHAN: If you see can't see that one is trillions and one is literally $13 million.
TOURE: But we have significant problems in this country. And the president only has --
MOYNIHAN: So we should just let everything go to hell?
TOURE: That that is obviously not the other side of the dichotomy.
MOYNIHAN: Should we not repair our roads either, because it costs too much money?
TOURE: What president would even --
PHILLIP: It is about priorities, right? Like, I mean, it's not as if we don't have to make choices. As Republicans said for many, many decades, Americans know how to balance their budgets because they have to do it every single day. And you have to make choices about, yes, you might want to repaint the outside of your house, but you've got to put food on the table for your kids. These are choices that are being made every single day. And when the American people look at what Trump's doing, they're asking themselves, who exactly is he prioritizing?
AVLON: It's the corruption. It's the no bid contracts. It's the tearing down the East Wing built by Teddy Roosevelt without consulting that belongs to the American people, not him. It's also, if he were paying for it his own money, that'd be a totally different thing. But when he says somethings going to be paid for by private sources, all of a sudden it's on the taxpayers dime.
And so we've got not only the degradation of the White House by tearing things down and Idiocracy in real life with the UFC cage match, but also when cuts are being made to USAID. So we don't have money for health care. When we're in a war and this money is being wasted or stolen or diverted, that's a real problem. And every American should be pissed about it, particularly if you call yourself fiscally conservative.
PHILLIP: Peter, do you have a quick response?
MEIJER: I mean, yes, I wish there was more fiscal conservative on the right. I don't like that my party has embraced the Democratic values of just spending borrowed dollars today.
TOURE: Oh, boy.
MEIJER: No, I mean, I was in Congress when $2 trillion were spent in excess of what we needed to fight COVID through the American rescue plan after states and municipalities that were projecting budget deficits had massive budget surpluses, and Congress kept sending them the checks.
AVLON: Don't disagree with that.
MEIJER: That's how we have the inflation today. So, yes.
AVLON: But what about this? Yes, we're criticizing.
MEIJER: We can go through each and every single line item and have varying priorities. At the end of the day, it's the 250th anniversary of the U.S. It is good that we are prioritizing making D.C. safe, healthy, attractive.
AVLON: Except we've got a hole where the East Wing is, right?
PHILLIP: We do have to leave it there.
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[10:43:00]
PHILLIP: Tis the season for advice and warnings to America's next generation, and for Conan O'Brien's speech to Harvard graduates, he gave both, including a diagnosis of today's divisive politics.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CONAN O'BRIEN, COMEDIAN: I understand that I am preaching modesty and connection at a time when this is not in style. We are living through a period of extreme narcissism. Our current leadership in Washington believes that empathy is a weakness, and that our nation stands supreme and alone. Add to that everyone here today has a phone in their pocket that is algorithmically programed to celebrate you and you alone by making you the protein maxing hero of your own special journey.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So, Peter, what do you think?
MEIJER: I liked Conan's speech. I think his basic components about humility, about modesty, about the perils of narcissism were all incredibly good values for those students to take away. He had some good Trump jokes, too. Like, that is how you should do Trump criticism as a comedian, if that's your profession.
PHILLIP: I mean, the part where --
MEIJER: It was funny. You can laugh.
PHILLIP: Yes. And, you know, I mean, I think there's a, there's like a, the broader point about just where were headed as a society. He's also making a point specifically about how this administration is really doubling down on this idea of, you know, there is -- there's no wrong, there's no apologies. You just have to keep going, keep fighting. Do you think that's fair, too?
MEIJER: I mean, I think his contrast between either like a might makes right, or, frankly, politics in general, which prioritizes power over anything else, I mean, power is the self-defining virtue as opposed to, yes, empathy as opposed to moderation as opposed to anything else, that is not a left or right component. I mean, that is a feature, not a bug of our political system and of politics in general. It's been that since time immemorial.
[10:45:00] TOURE: I've got to disagree with that. I think a lack of empathy is at the core of what is the problem with the modern Republican Party, that everything filters through, how does this do for me? What does this policy do for me? Where a lot of Democrats, a lot of lefties are thinking about other people when they vote. I'm not saying were all super virtuous, but we're thinking more about what does the community need. Whereas Republicans are quite often thinking, what do I need?
MEIJER: I mean, the politics, setting aside the messaging and how people want to be conveyed, right, because I've met plenty of Democrats who are incredibly empathetic in public and are, at the end of the day, craven politicians. Just like Republicans can do the same thing. Like that hypocrisy is as old as time in the political system. And that is not something that I think -- it is something that all too often we take for granted as, as just a, a fact of life, which it is. But that doesn't mean for younger generations rising up that the folks that they see on TV should be the ones they look up to.
AVLON: Well beyond, you know, the wonderful absurdity of a guy who is a Hollywood guy warning about the dangers of narcissism, Conan O'Brien is actually a big American political history nerd. And that did shine through, right. And I think the point is that you become really patriotic about American history when you understand that people like Abraham Lincoln talked about the importance of not might making right, but right making might. It's that inversion that creates something deeper.
So it's not just, you know, all politicians historically are craven. It's that when we try to rise above those worst impulses, that's when we create our best history. And that's what's in danger of being lost. And that's what he was pointing out.
PHILLIP: Lydia, you seemed to take issue with what terry was saying, which is this idea that Republicans are sort of self-interested, that they don't want you to have empathy. And in fact, wasn't there someone who recently said -- it was Elon Musk, who said that empathy is going to be the downfall of human civilization. There is a strain of our politics that basically says, you care too much about your neighbor. You should really only care about you and yours and yourself.
MOYNIHAN: Well, I think there is a huge difference between macro policy for a nation and the way that somebody behaves in their own life. I think there's a very important value to sort of have a realistic perspective on a macro level, have economic policy that makes sense in a fallen world.
On a micro level, Republicans are actually far more generous in terms of their charitable giving than Democrats. And Republicans, in my experience -- obviously, we can't paint with a broad brush because there's a lot of people out there. There's a lot of good eggs, a lot of bad eggs. But I would say the philosophy of a lot of conservatives is in your personal life on a micro level, be compassionate, be empathetic. On a macro level, when you're talking about public policy, you cannot behave that way. That is just suicidal. Elon musk. Elon musk --
TOURE: So you just conceded. You just admitted what I said, that you want to be selfish in macro policy.
MEIJER: No, no, no. The point is that empathy can oftentimes be cruel in its reality. The way you, if you have somebody who is addicted to drugs and they're homeless, and your solution is to give them needles so they can then overdose, is that being empathetic? Is it harsh and cruel to try to force that person into a drug treatment center that may ultimately --
AVLON: Those are great debates. Those are great debates.
PHILLIP: I agree, they are great debates that we have to leave right there.
Next for us, the panel's unpopular opinions, what they're not afraid to say out loud.
But first, Craig Ferguson is going coast to uncover what it really means to be an American. Today, exploring the country's chaotic, triumphant and controversial 250 year journey with his sharp insights and signature humor. "Craig Ferguson, American on Purpose" premieres tonight at 9:00 p.m. on CNN and streaming the next day on the CNN app.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[10:53:31]
WHITFIELD: We're back, and it's time for your unpopular opinions. Lydia, you're up first.
MOYNIHAN: You know, a lot of people were upset about the rainy weekend for Memorial Day. I kind of loved it. I feel like being inside, cozy is far more relaxing than having to go out to all these parties. I love a rainy weekend. I think it's super restful.
WHITFIELD: You know what? We had a nice indoor Memorial Day for that exact reason. It was cozy.
Go ahead.
TOURE: Abby, if you and I and our spouses go out to dinner, somebody is picking up the check. I'm picking it up or your husband is picking it up, you're picking it up. No splitting checks. That is so whack. If you pull out your calculator and say, well, I had one glass of wine and a salad, so I'm paying this much, our friendship is over, right? That is it. Just, I will pick it up this time. You get it next time. It'll all work out in the wash.
PHILLIP: Toure, were you eavesdropping in my house this week? Because I literally just had this situation happen to me, and I 100 percent agree with you.
AVLON: It all will work out, man.
All right, so this year's, you know, we just had a Conan O'Brien commencement address. One of the big trends was college graduates booing their speakers. First of all, remember Barack Obama's big advice, don't boo. Vote. If you don't like what they're saying, then, you know, make a case, get involved. But they're booing things that are making them uncomfortable. So A, don't be so fragile. Welcome to the real world. Second of all, if the rise of A.I. is troubling you, and it should, don't blame the messenger. So when you're booing Eric Schmitt or you're booing Jonathan Haidt at NYU, take a look at grok. Grow up and deal with the changes that are coming. Also, popular opinion, go, Knicks.
PHILLIP: All right.
[10:55:03]
MEIJER: As those graduates go out into the world, they should not feel compelled to take forward breakfast. Breakfast is a scam. It is not -- it is not healthy. They're going to go to Dunkin Donuts and get an egg McMuffin at McDonalds. Like, no, no, no, no, no, no. The idea it's the most important meal of the day is absolute B.S. Choose for yourselves. Think. Don't be cheap.
PHILLIP: Peter, all I have to say is, you are wrong.
MEIJER: No. Unhealthy is unhealthy.
PHILLIP: Yes, that's right, exactly.
Everyone, thank you very much. Thanks for watching "TABLE FOR FIVE".
You can catch me every weeknight at 10:00 p.m. eastern with our Newsnight Roundtable, and anytime on your favorite social media, X, Instagram, and on TikTok. But in the meantime, CNN's coverage continues right now.
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