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Table For Five
GOP Sounds Alarm On Close Texas Race, Begs Trump To Engage; Despite Record Low Approval, Trump Tells GOP He's On The Ballot; Did Joe Rogan Accidentally Make The Case For Socialism? Trump And MAGA Allies Embrace Socialistic Policies; Senate Candidate: Jesus Pushed For Same Things Socialists Are; More Progressive In Invoking Jesus On Midterm Campaign Trail; At Least 15 Colleges Now Charging $100K+ Per Year. Aired 7-8a ET
Aired September 05, 2026 - 07:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[07:00:00]
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR: Hi everyone, I'm Abby Phillip. Thanks for joining us.
Donald Trump's Midterm strategy appears to be a game of mirror-mirror on the wall. Despite a record low approval, a war without an end in sight, and an economy that has the majority of Americans concerned, the President appears to think putting himself front and center is the way to go.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: So, what I really want you to do is pretend, please, that I'm on the ballot. Just come and vote. It's so important.
But some people like me more than they like the party. I mean, you know, you can't be insulted by it. There's nothing you can do about it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: It's not just Trump who believes this. The first Midterm ad from pro-Trump group puts him in the spotlight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DANA WHITE, CEO, UFC: He is the toughest, most resilient person that I've ever met. And nothing was going to stop him from fighting so hard for the country he loves.
TRUMP: Now, our top priority will be to create a nation that is proud, prosperous, and free.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: There are so many close races, including in red states, where Democrats are threatening to turn them blue. But the one in Texas is the one that has Republicans begging Trump to wake up. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KARL ROVE, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Time is running out. If the President wants to have Paxton win, he needs to have -- be tossing a lot of money in Paxton's way so that ads can be run that depict Talarico as the far-left winger that he is.
SEN JOHN THUNE (R-SD): I think all of our allies out there, including the president and his team and their resources, need to be brought to bear on Texas because it's not one that we can lose if we're going to hang on to a Republican majority. We flat have to win there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: So, Josh, it seems like there's a lot of mixed messages coming from Republicans right now. You've got Trump saying, oh, it's not me that they're mad at it. It's the Republicans. Meanwhile, the Republicans are saying, oh, we're running our own races. The executives doing whatever they want. They're also saying that, oh, it's not so bad. The Democrats are so radical. We're going to win easily. And yet Texas is maybe tied. So, which -- what is really going on here?
JOSH ROGIN, LEAD GLOBAL SECURITY ANALYST, WASHINGTON POST INTELLIGENCE: You know, I think it's increasingly clear that Republicans are very concerned about how the numbers are looking, how the polls are looking. The biggest signal, I think this week was a couple of days ago on Thursday when Speaker Johnson canceled the September session of Congress. They're not going to come back from now until after November because according to my sources, they think they need to be in their districts.
Now, of course, the Republicans have to talk about the things the people in their districts care about. Trump doesn't care about that, but he's got all the money. And there's the rub. They need his money. They would rather not focus on him. They would rather focus on the things their voters care about. But they need his money. And in the end, money talks.
CARI CHAMPION, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, where is the money though? From my understanding, and it's rare that I often see these outlets. When I look at Fox News and they're talking about they're interviewing different senators and they're like, hopefully the money is coming soon. Trump is like, yes, we've got -- we're just waiting. We're going to -- and I'm going to give some of my money.
What I see right now in real time as we are nearing these Midterms, there is a collapse within the MAGA party. MAGA Inc is holding on to funds for whatever reasons, and everyone isn't vocally expressing how they feel, but the American people are.
We talk about polls. The polls say that he's at 32 percent approval. Americans feel like they have no money in their pockets and food is high and that is directly related to this war of choice that they didn't want. We look and we pay attention to what's happening there. Where's the Strait of Hormuz? Who's in charge of it? Not us. The war isn't over. He's declared it's been over.
And we're tired of the lies. How many times have we been told this is what's happening? You can only tell me that so long before I go on with these marching orders. And also, I don't believe that Trump actually campaigning for anybody who is in a tied race is something that is going to be helpful.
ROGIN: Trump is on the race, right?
CHAMPION: I don't know about that.
PHILLIP: You know, they're supposed to be having this convention next week that Trump insisted on because his theory was that Republicans will need to crow about all the great things that they've done for the American people. But interestingly, some Republicans are complaining about it. They think it's a waste of time. They want to be in their districts. They're worried about being on the stage with Trump. They're worried about getting a Trump rally that's basically nationally televised.
Here's what J.D. Vance said about it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
J.D. VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Look, so when you're running a congressional race, especially in a very tight race, you have so many things that are local that you're focused on.
We can make the argument as much as possible that if you elect Congressional Democrats, you're going to see higher prices, worse energy, higher taxes, and more fraud. The President and I can go and make that argument on national TV. We don't need a congressman in a tight race to be there in all cases.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: He say -- he's like, nothing to see here. But I mean, Caroline, look, higher prices, prices are higher, worse energy, gas prices are also higher. More fraud, Trump has pardoned a bunch of fraudsters. So, I don't know. I mean, this is a pretty thin resume right now that they're trying to run on.
CAROLINE SUNSHINE, DEPUTY COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR, TRUMP 20204 CAMPAIGN: Well, first I think your point on Republicans complaining about not going to the Midterm convention is well taken because one of my complaints about Republicans generally is we can never seem to just be a be a one team coalesce around something.
You know, I'll give it to Democrats like when Nancy Pelosi was running the House, you know, she knew how to get people to fall in line. And one of the things I watch congressional Republicans always fall prey to is when they are handed power, we often spend it squabbling amongst ourselves rather than actually wielding power effectively.
And I do think the President is right that there is a perception where voters have always viewed him differently than the rest of Republicans. That's always been something unique about his political brand. They see him differently than the rest of Republicans. He is different in many ways, but so many of these Republicans came in on his coattails to Congress. I mean, Republicans do control the House and the Senate. And there is a faction of the Republican base that has not been pleased that something like the SAVE Act hasn't been able to get passed.
And you know, you hear from Thune, well, I don't have the votes. We would have to nuke the filibuster. But I think Republicans expect leadership more like Nancy. I wish we had a Nancy Pelosi in the Republican Party who could whip it.
PHILLIP: I feel like I need to defend Mike Johnson here because, I don't know, what more could Mike Johnson have done for Donald Trump?
SUNSHINE: More. More.
PHILLIP: I mean, he really has -- he's done everything he has been asked to do.
KMELE FOSTER, EDITOR-AT-LARGE, TANGLE: And at the moment, I think I think a lot of what you said has been true historically, but at the moment, I'm not certain that Republican voters seem to have this appetite for more legislation that they're really concerned about the SAVE Act in particular.
And when it comes to Republicans in Congress, this is a period of kind of the least infighting amongst them that I've seen in a while. Marjorie Taylor Greene is out the door. Even Thomas Massie, who was there and is a bit of a distraction, isn't nearly the distraction he was a couple of months ago. At the moment, the thing that Republicans seem to lack is a real theory of the case for the election and for their national narrative.
And the President is offering them more spectacles. And he's been doing this for a while. It's a military parade. It's a ballroom that he wants to build, but it's also a Grand Prix. It's a UFC fight on the lawn.
CHAMPION: Gladiator games.
FOSTER: I mean, this feels so much like bread and circuses in a lot of respects. And I think a lot of Americans have that sensibility. And I think also that a lot of elected Republicans have that sensibility as well. They look at the president. They see his falling poll numbers. They see an administration that does not really seem to have a clear sensibility of where it's going and how it's going to disentangle itself from this war in the Middle East. And they are uncertain about the kind of proximity they want to have to him. Do they have a better idea? They don't at the moment, but they're still nervous.
PHILLIP: Well, I just want to play quickly. This is what some of the Republican ads in these battleground states, what they actually look like.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) ZACH LAHN (R-IA), GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE: On our farm here in Belle Plaine, we see it every day. Gas, groceries, everything is expensive. Iowa families are hurting.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Housing costs keep rising and it's getting harder to afford a place to live.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When I was diagnosed with breast cancer, the last thing I needed to worry about was money. But bills are overwhelming and groceries, rent, and gas are more expensive, too.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[07:10:04]
PHILLIP: This is going to feel like real cognitive dissonance. If you -- Trump and Vance are going to go up there and they're going to be rah, rah,, everything is great in this country --
ROGIN: Right.
PHILLIP: That is not going to work --
ROGIN: I mean --
PHILLIP: -- where they actually needed to be --
ROGIN: They asked Trump about this many times. He always says the same thing. I don't care. The Iran war is worth it. We have to stop Iran from getting a nuclear weapon so people are just -- you just have less dollars. You had 30 dolls. Now you got two dolls. His actual policy is children should have less toys so that we can stay in the war in Iran and it just doesn't play. So, they can distance themselves if they want -- all they want in these ads, but at the end of the day, people listen to Trump. The voters listen to Trump. And they got to leave with the one who brought you.
CHAMPION: I think -- I think that's going to backfire.
ROGIN: They can -- they can't divorce him.
CHAMPION: Caroline said just something a moment ago. He has always been able to separate himself. He has been Trump and it has been the rest of the Republican Party or the rest of MAGA. So, now we're going straight to the top because you know what? It has been him. And so, because he is the figurehead, is he's the person enforcing these said rules. He's going to be the person responsible for their downfall. I think that he believes that he's not. But I ultimately believe that he will be.
SUNSHINE: You know --
PHILLIP: All right.
SUNSHINE: Yes.
PHILLIP: We got to leave it there.
Next for us, Joe Rogan accidentally makes the case for socialism. We'll discuss. Plus, progressives are finding religion. Why more and more candidates are talking about Jesus on the campaign trail? We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[07:16:06]
PHILLIP: Welcome back. One of the right's favorite podcasters appears to accidentally make the case for socialism.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE ROGAN, HOST, THE JOE ROGAN EXPERIENCE: Just imagine how much less crime there would be if no one was ever starving, if no one was ever hungry, if no one was ever desperate, if no one was ever worried about where their next meal was going to come from or where -- whether or not they're going to have a roof over their head. What if like there's no more poverty? What if the concept of poverty is like completely out the window and there is no poverty in this country?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, we could have already done that already. We could have already done that.
ROGAN: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sure. Like, we don't need A.I.
ROGAN: But you would have to get all those rich people that are in charge of industry and running corporations and in government to agree to make the world a better place for everybody.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Joe Rogan isn't the only one who is socialism curious right now. Donald Trump has upended decades of Republican principles, whether it's government stakes in private businesses or price controls, leading a for -- leading a former Obama adviser to recently say this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT WOLF, FORMER CEO, UBS AMERICAS: If Mayor Mamdani did the following, if he put price controls on product like pharmaceuticals, if he bailed out farms, if he took private stakes in public companies, if he said to energy companies, you're making too much money, if he proposed credit card caps, you would all go apoplectic as would your viewers. That's what President Trump is doing. You could argue he is the most powerful socialist in the country today.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: He's not wrong.
FOSTER: He's not wrong. That is totally accurate. And I'm shocked that you guys didn't play imagine in the background as --
PHILLIP: We're talking about Jesus in the next segment, but what Joe Rogan was describing is heaven. It's literally in the Bible.
CHAMPION: She's saying it is heaven.
FOSTER: No wars, no hunger, no famine. Look, this is not new for Joe Rogan. Joe Rogan is -- was a Bernie bro at one point. He's always had. He's not really an ideologue. He has always had kind of tendencies in this direction. I think the real thing that's interesting to me is these are just not serious ideas in an important respect.
Like, you could liquidate all of the wealth held by all of the billionaires and redistribute that money to every American --
ROGIN: Let's try it.
FOSTER: -- that has less than $100,000 a year.
ROGIN: Let's give it a shot.
FOSTER: They would get like to 20 to 30,000 one time.
ROGIN: I'll take it. I'll take it.
FOSTER: And then what? What would you actually have done? It achieved absolutely nothing. This is not how wealth is created. You don't make people wealthier simply by redistributing money and taking things from one place to another.
I think we've -- before the Trump moment, we had this this tension between the redistributionists and the revivalists. The people who insisted America could be great if we went backwards and the people who insist America could be great if we just take all the money from them and give it to all of them. Neither of those policies makes a lot of sense.
We need innovation. We need building. We need actual prosperity. And you have to create that. You can only create that. You can't redistribute wealth.
ROGIN: You can do something in the middle. I mean, full disclosure, I'm not related to Joe Rogan. My name is Josh Rogan, but I did do the Joe Rogan podcast. Rogan versus Rogin.
CHAMPION: It's crazy. You guys looked just alike. I thought that --
ROGIN: Episode 16. I know. It's uncanny.
CHAMPION: I'm glad you --
ROGIN: But that's -- I'm also not related to Seth Rogen. That's a separate story.
CHAMPION: A whole another story. But I've spent enough time with Joe Rogan to know that -- I agree with you. This is what he's been saying along. It's not socialism. It's more populism. You know, socialism I think of like, oh, the Chinese state economy where the government controls everything and does everything. That's national socialism to be honest.
Well, what he's talking about is populism, which is neither left nor right and not new for him. And you know, yes, you could say that the full extreme where we redistribute everything is bad. Sure. But that's essentially a straw man because we already have a system that mixes capitalism and socialism.
FOSTER: Not a strawman, Reductio ad absurdum, but sure.
ROGIN: Well, tomato, tomato. But the point is that we already redistribute wealth. We have Social Security. We have poverty alleviation. It's just not working that well. And you don't have to have full socialism to feed starving children. Although right now, we're cutting back on all of those programs. Internationally, we've destroyed our humanitarian aid system. And domestically, we've undermined our social safety net by defunding it and destroying it. So that is of what he's reacting to.
There are a lot of people suffering in our system that don't need to be suffering. And you don't have to destroy innovation to do it.
[07:20:16]
PHILLIP: But what about what Robert Wolf was saying there about the world that we live in that Trump is creating where he is the one guy who decides when there is going to be redistribution? When he's going to take tax dollars from Americans in the form of tariffs and redistribute them to corporations or whoever he wants to redistribute them to?
I guess part of the -- what we're living with in the country seems to be that Americans are experiencing what the Wall Street Journal calls state capitalism where, you know, the president is just deciding how to dole things out which looks a little bit like socialism to them. And then they're also hearing from those same people socialism is bad when it's designed to help you.
CHAMPION: Sure. Yes, it's interesting. This is a really -- people are having this conversation. I'm glad that we also are having it in mainstream, if you will. There was a time when you thought -- and I'm not saying -- I'm not saying take DSA as it is, but there was a time, again you thought, oh my God, that's -- this is insane. Can you believe what they believe?
There was also a time when president -- what President Trump is doing right now, we would have thought never. Are you -- can you believe that? He's trying to really -- you know, strip away civil rights for Black and Brown people? He's saying it's OK to behave the way that he's behave. There was a time in which I thought at least in my lifetime, this is insane. I can't believe people are going along with it.
And I am seeing something in real time where we are swinging to the other side. And what progressives are doing, what socialists are doing is that they're like, you know what, maybe we can tone down some of our rhetoric. There are some places where we can meet in the middle. There are things that we can say that don't sound so crazy.
PHILLIP: Let me play just one more clip from Joe Rogan just to the point of his sort of populist leanings. Here's what he said about the stock market.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROGAN: I often think what would society look like if there wasn't a stock market? You don't have stock in publicly traded companies where there's a -- there's this obligation to your shareholders to make more money, which makes you more ruthless, cut more corners, pay people less, do everything you can to save as much money possible because you have an obligation to your shareholders.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Again, in this moment, what he's talking about, I think, what he's speaking to is that the fact that when Americans say things cost too much, the White House says, well, the stock market is doing great. People are like --
CHAMPION: What does that do to you?
PHILLIP: What does that mean to me?
SUNSHINE: I mean, I have long said that I think the most pressing problem in American politics is the gap between the haves and have nots is getting too big and people perceive that. And the party that closes that gap will win elections for the next 25 years. And if we don't, this country probably will get revolution is what history would say, especially with young people.
I mean, it's an interesting point about the stock market. You know, the top 10 percent in our country own 80 percent of the stock market. The bottom half of Americans don't own anything. They have debt, car debt, medical debt, student loan debt. Our main childbearing-age population carries way more debt than our senior-aged population. And I think the solution isn't socialism because socialism to your point just strips wealth. It doesn't create wealth. The solution is get more people participating in the stock market.
And you know, when you talk about Midterms and like what is Trump going to go message, I would be screaming Trump Accounts from the rooftops.
PHILLIP: All right. Next for us, many progressives are invoking Jesus on the campaign trail, likening their "extreme positions to Christianity." We'll discuss.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[07:28:37] PHILLIP: We've seen data centers and AI become hot topics on the campaign trail, but there is another surprising one. Religion. More and more progressives are the ones talking about Jesus in their races. It's something that you typically hear from conservatives. The Democrat trying to turn Texas blue, for example, talks a lot about the connections between Christianity and policies.
And listen to Angie Nixon, the Democratic Socialist Senate candidate in Florida at a church recently.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANGIE NIXON (D-FL), SENATE CANDIDATE: They are trying, y'all. They are trying, as he stated, to label me as this extremist, this radical. But you know, Jesus was a radical.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Amen.
NIXON: And he pushed for the same things that I'm fighting for today, right? Right now, we're literally in a civil rights moment.
We have nothing to lose but our chains. Our chains are the fact that the federal minimum wage is still $7.25 an hour. Our chains are the fact that they're spending $2 billion a day on a war that we didn't ask for.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Even Abdul El-Sayed, the Muslim Michigan candidate, also invoked Christ in his policies.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ABDUL EL-SAYED (D-MI): Well, you know, Jesus, peace and blessings be upon him, was considered radical in his time, too. And there is a radical nature to being willing to stand forthright in a time of corruption. And I think it's important for all of us to realize that popularity and zeitgeist don't make truth.
[07:30:02]
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: For a long time, Republicans used religion in politics and seemed to box out Democrats on this issue. This tactic, do you think it has a chance at working? At bringing in some of those Democrats, many of whom really are religious, but just haven't seen it in their politics?
SUNSHINE: Well, I think it's interesting because when Republicans talk about God, it's -- you guys are Christian nationalists that want to tear down the country and make it militant Christianity.
But then, when Democrats talk about it, it's like, hey, Jesus was a radical too, guys. You know? So, I just think there is a double standard there, and it's really disingenuous. But, you know, I'm a Christian. I practice Christianity. I don't know if I subscribe to the idea that a lot of what Angie Nixon is saying aligns with Christianity, mainly on things like DEI policies.
I mean, as a Christian, you believe everybody is equal in the eyes of God, and that's a big part of why we don't support anything related to preferencing one race over another. It's a big reason why Christians were in support of abolishing slavery.
And then, I think the other thing I would like to see progressives answer for, if they really want to sit here and say that Jesus would have been a progressive, then, I want to hear progressives get vocal on the issue of cancel culture.
A lot of progressives were the ones who championed cancel culture in this country, and Christianity does not believe that anybody is irredeemable. We don't believe anybody can be canceled. We believe in forgiveness. We believe --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Is that -- is that true?
SUNSHINE: Yes!
PHILLIP: Because I mean, I think, one of the reasons a Christian nationalism --
(CROSSTALK)
SUNSHINE: You got to walk your talk.
PHILLIP: -- so controversial is because it's used as a mechanism to exclude -- let's just put out there: gay, LGBTQ people from full participation in American society.
I mean, we have a Christian nationalist, you know, defense secretary who calls out people by their gender -- their gender orientation, or their LGBTQ status regularly, and maligns them. I mean, I don't see how that's very Christian.
SUNSHINE: I don't know if that's coming from -- I don't know if he would subscribe to that description of him. I think that has a lot -- has a lot more to do with, unfortunately, the military can't always be run like a social experiment. The military has to worry about lethality.
And when we do things like lowering the standards for women, or you know, the transgender issue does complicate things for a military force. I don't think that has to do with Christian nationalism, because I think if you poll, the military is the most diverse organization in the country.
It has people from all creeds, all colors, all walks of life. I think if you were to ask the rank-and-file soldiers how does something like a transgender tolerant policy or lowering standards for different genders impact lethality, they would have a very different opinion on that. That has nothing to do with Christian nationalism.
ROGIN: I think, a lot of soldiers have a lot of different opinions on what Pete Hegseth is doing. You know, I know a lot of veterans, including many who served in Congress, who advocated very fiercely for the rights of gay and transgender service members who have served valiantly and been treated cruelly by this administration. And I think that's a travesty.
But on your broader issue, I think that, you know, if there, you know, full disclosure, I actually, am an ordained minister under the UniversalLifeChurch.com for the purposes of officiating weddings.
PHILLIP: Noted, noted.
SUNSHINE: Have you officiating?
ROGIN: Yes, I have officiated a same-sex wedding.
(CROSSTALK)
SUNSHINE: Very cool.
ROGIN: And the bottom line is, I'm also agnostic Jewish Buddhist. So, the point is that I don't think any --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Can you check all the boxes today?
ROGIN: Yes. So, I say, let a thousand flowers bloom, and how about we just keep the division of church and state as envisioned in the Constitution?
(CROSSTALK)
SUNSHINE: I'm intrigue.
ROGIN: And if God does exist, I doubt that she has a preference in terms of our political party.
PHILLIP: So, let me play Jay -- James Talarico. He was recently on "The Breakfast Club" talking about faith. And the truth is, James Talarico came on the scene, and I think one of the reasons he broke through is actually because of this issue. Here is what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHARLAMAGNE THA GOD, CO-HOST, THE BREAKFAST CLUB: Do you think Democrats abandon faith, or did Republicans just become better marketers?
JAMES TALARICO (D), SENATORIAL CANDIDATE, TEXAS: Both. Democrats, they confuse two things. They confuse that separation of church and state with a separation of faith and politics. We should have the first, we don't need the second. We should bring our faith traditions, our moralities, our philosophies, our ethics, our worldviews to our politics. And if you don't, then, your politics becomes kind of spiritually impoverished.
Democrats made a huge mistake in ceding religion to the other side, and we have seen the disastrous consequences of it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Do you think that's true, Kmele?
KMELE FOSTER, CO-HOST, THE FIFTH COLUMN PODCAST: I am of two minds about this.
[07:35:02]
I think, I have a lot of concern about legislating morality. I have that concern from -- with respect to conservatives. I certainly have that concern with respect to people on the left as well. People are free to have whatever views they prefer on gay marriage and various other issues. I think civil unions make a little more sense to me than gay marriage.
I think that people who want to have a cake baked for them probably shouldn't be able to force people to bake cakes for them if they don't want to. That sort of thing. I still believed ultimately in choice.
But I do think that there's something about bringing your whole self to voters when you are a politician, and I think talking authentically, mentioning your faith, discussing that sort of thing openly, allows Democrats and progressives to access a kind of candor that people on the right, I think have been able -- had the luxury of leveraging for some time.
It's not as though this is totally alien for Democrats. We know Bill Clinton and Barack Obama and even Hillary Clinton actually the ability to go --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Jimmy Carter.
FOSTER: And certainly, Jimmy Carter.
But to go into churches, to have conversations with congregates, to use that oration that sounds a bit like a minister, and they did it to great effect.
CHAMPION: I think it's OK, especially if you have a relationship. Like I also consider myself a Christian, Caroline. But I have -- I undoubtedly have different views than you do.
And I think --
SUNSHINE: I know about that. You don't know of my -- you don't know of my belief. CHAMPION: I think so -- I think so, because I believe in --
FOSTER: I think it's safe to say --
CHAMPION: I think it's safe to say because I believe in DEI. I think -- I think
SUNSHINE: You know, I would -- I would not assume anything about you, and I don't want you to make assumptions about me.
(CROSSTALK)
CHAMPION: Well, then, let me say this.
SUNSHINE: I would rather have that conversation --
(CROSSTALK)
CHAMPION: I believe in DEI, and you do not. You just said that, correct?
SUNSHINE: That's a difference. But there might me other things as --
(CROSSTALK)
CHAMPION: So, there is our difference. So, that's why I know that we believe differently, and I don't rely on Christianity to determine whether or not I believe in DEI.
(CROSSTALK)
SUNSHINE: But do you believe everybody is equal in the eyes of God?
CHAMPION: Yes, but that has nothing to do with this planet that we live on.
SUNSHINE: But I think DEI can be -- equal in the eyes of God.
(CROSSTALK)
CHAMPION: It has nothing to do with the earth that we live in. It has nothing to do with the circumstances that I have been raised into, not because of the fact that I wanted them that way, but because I am a Black American, and we have been treated differently since the beginning of the --
(CROSSTALK)
SUNSHINE: But --
CHAMPION: Hold on. The point of the matter is, is that I don't mind that people believe whatever way they believe, and I definitely don't mind what politician believes whatever way he believes, and I think we should know, because that tells me it gives us a moral compass, and it tells me which way I -- if in fact, I want to get in line with you, and if I want to march with you, and if I want to vote for you. I like that idea. I don't think we should legislate to your point whether or not you should get married. You can't get married if she says she can get married. That's not my business. I don't even want to get in. I want to mind --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I would also argue that you can't have policy without morality. Because fundamentally, policy is the effectuation of our moral values as a nation.
CHAMPION: That's right.
ROGIN: But you can have morality without religion.
PHILLIP: So, we decide what we prioritize versus other things based on what we think is important and what we don't. And to me, that is a moral judgment. And for some people, that morality comes from faith. For some people, it doesn't come from faith.
CHAMPION: Sure.
PHILLIP: But I think all of that --
(CROSSTALK)
CHAMPION: Is important.
PHILLIP: Society is about morality, and that's what--- that's why it ends up coming up so much. When we talk about abortion, when we talk about the tax code, when we talk about redistribution. All of those things are value judgments.
All right. Next for us, the cost of college is now surpassing 100 grand in more than a dozen schools. Is it all worth it? We'll discuss.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[07:43:01]
PHILLIP: The gas pumps and grocery stores are not the only places with sticker shock. Inflation has come to campus, and you probably could argue it's never really left.
A new report shows 16 universities and colleges have surpassed a hundred grand per year for tuition and room and board. So, nearly half a million dollars for a four-year degree.
And just keep in mind, the average salary in America is $65,000. Some of these campuses include Duke, Georgetown, NYU, and the University of Chicago.
So, what exactly are you paying for, and is it worth it? And are we going to continue to be able to convince people to do this thing?
CHAMPION: That's -- this is like, these are all great questions. You -- OK. So, you went to -- you went to --
PHILLIP: I went to Harvard.
CHAMPION: How much was it when you went? A year?
PHILLIP: It was probably like 50 something -- maybe.
CHAMPION: OK.
PHILLIP: Don't hold me to that.
CHAMPION: OK.
PHILLIP: But I'm guessing.
CHAMPION: Approximately.
PHILLIP: Yes. But here is -- I'm glad you brought this up, because this is -- I mean, one of the things about this list is that they -- what they show is that there is the sticker price, and then, there is like the price that people actually pay, the average, you know, gift from scholarships and merit-based things.
(CROSSTALK)
CHAMPION: That's (INAUDIBLE)
PHILLIP: It adds up to maybe half or more. I mean, but you notice on that list, not a ton of Ivy's on that list, because they are not raising their prices quite this high, and they give way more financial assistance on a need base to their student body.
CHAMPION: Oh, I didn't know that. OK.
PHILLIP: Yes.
CHAMPION: I think -- I think it's interesting that they continue to raise the price and people are still paying. So, the money must be there, or this is his philosophy that I had.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: But the money is definitely there.
CHAMPION: Because when I went to UCLA, I remember thinking, oh, this was -- it was like maybe -- and I grew up in Los Angeles. I was -- I was allegedly not getting charged any out of state fees. It was probably when I went to school, $18,000 a year.
Now, that's just -- and that's not including, to your point, some grants and some scholarships and all of those things. But now, it is more than tripled.
[07:45:01]
And the money from -- for whatever reasons is there. And I don't think these institutions have any incentive to lower the price or lower tuition rates because parents will do whatever it takes, the child will do whatever it takes to make sure that once they get into these universities, because it's so hard to get, especially in some of these universities that are considered the best, they will do whatever it takes.
You are there, we will figure it out. We will take a second out on the house, you take some loans out.
I don't see these schools saying, you know what? Let's give them a break.
And in fact, before you even graduate, like six months after I graduated, UCLA was asking me for money. I said, well, hold on.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's also --
PHILLIP: -- a lot of foreign students that they are expecting to come to different places.
SUNSHINE: Sure.
CHAMPION: Correct.
PHILLIP: The super wealthy. But I mean, I also think it's a question of like whether even some of the federal -- this is the case Republicans make.
FOSTER: It is -- yes
PHILLIP: Federal --
(CROSSTALK)
FOSTER: And Joe Biden.
PHILLIP: Higher education policy has juiced these numbers. Yes.
FOSTER: Enormous federal subsidies have helped to keep the prices of education high. Education -- price inflation in education and in healthcare goes up astronomically because so many people aren't actually paying the full freight of these -- for these services, and that is a concern. That is actually something that we need to address.
The two things that were not mentioned yet are, why is this going up to subsidies? And two, are people actually getting value for their money here?
And kids who are going to school and majoring in communications, no, no shade being thrown here, and paying $120,000 a year.
But paying $120,000 a year for it, are you going to get the return on that investment?
PHILLIP: Yes. FOSTER: I don't know. I think if there is a remedy here, it might be to tie the actual amount that you pay to the actual return that you get on that investment based on what you make.
ROGIN: Well, that's give me tough.
Then, we are going to have no more philosophers and no more liberal arts colleges.
(CROSSTALK)
FOSTER: I don't know if that's true.
ROGIN: I mean, I don't know how you monetize an English degree.
(CROSSTALK)
FOSTER: We probably have -- we probably have an oversupply of that.
ROGIN: But it has something value. But I agree with you that --
PHILLIP: But could we charge people different rates for different degrees? Because--
(CROSSTALK)
SUNSHINE: Yes!
PHILLIP: A science degree requires labs. That's expensive.
CHAMPION: Yes.
PHILLIP: It's expensive, right?
ROGIN: I think, we are --
PHILLIP: It should cost more.
ROGIN: I agree with you.
PHILLIP: An English degree where you are reading books? That should cost less.
(CROSSTALK)
ROGIN: Well, I think we are -- I think we are on the -- I think -- I think we are on the cusp of an -- of an educational revolution in this country.
PHILLIP: Yes, I think so.
ROGIN: And I think the pace of change, and how people consume information I -- we see it in journalism -- we see it in academia. It's the same.
No longer is all this knowledge gate -- being able to be gatekept by these institutions, because it's available for everyone. And the pace of technology change will mean that the value, the real value of spending all that money and the value of that degree is going down over time. It's inevitable, and it's going to go down pretty fast.
FOSTER: Yes.
ROGIN: By the time our kids get to college --
PHILLIP: Yes.
ROGIN: Yes, it will be a million dollars a year.
FOSTER: Yes.
ROGIN: But maybe that won't be the thing that you will need to do.
(CROSSTALK)
CHAMPION: Laughing?
FOSTER: I thought you are wrong.
CHAMPION: Oh, yes.
ROGIN: Maybe -- yes.
PHILLIP: I'm laughing, but it's like --
(CROSSTALK)
CHAMPION: Maybe.
PHILLIP: But true. It could be true.
ROGIN: But a million -- but a million dollars will only be worth a thousand dollars. But that's a separate point.
But what I'm saying is that the whole idea that this is the path towards a formal education, to a path to success for people. In 20 years, I don't think that's going to be the case.
(CROSSTALK)
CHAMPION: That's not going to be it. Yes.
People are not going to be going to school for a million dollars a year, and you --
ROGIN: And -- yes. You just go to Claude or something and figure it out.
CHAMPION: That's -- I agree with that. I think, more people like, you know what, I'm all set. I'm all set. I don't need an education. It is so expensive. I'm all set.
PHILLIP: Yes, and look, it's not about the education anyway. CHAMPION: Yes.
PHILLIP: To be honest.
ROGIN: It's about the credential.
PHILLIP: It's about the -- it's about the credential, which is --
(CROSSTALK)
ROGIN: And the networking.
PHILLIP: It could be about the parties too, because it's about the networking. I think it's about a lot of other things other than what people actually learn in these universities.
All right, next for us, the panel's unpopular opinions-what they are not afraid to say out loud. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[07:53:11]
PHILLIP: We are back, and it's time for your unpopular opinions. Josh, you are up.
ROGIN: The NFL is on too many channels. OK. We can't keep track. All right.
FOSTER: It is just true.
ROGIN: I love the Philadelphia Eagles. They are going to be a great team this year. I bought that NFL ticket. It's like several $700. I still can't watch all this.
Yes, I got to get Netflix, Paramount, Plus --
PHILLIP: Did you say $700?
ROGIN: No, I think it's like $400. But it's still a lot of money. And then, you need, you know, Amazon, you need NFL Network. You need Hulu. It -- YouTube. It -- how many subscriptions do I -- I'm going to have to take out a loan to get through the season.
CHAMPION: Yes, yes.
ROGIN: And I don't even get a hot dog.
CHAMPION: Yes.
ROGIN: We got to end this madness. We got to have all.
(CROSSTALK)
CHAMPION: I'm with you. Bravo!
ROGIN: Thank you. Thank you.
CHAMPION: Josh Rogin for president.
ROGIN: Thank you. Thank you.
CHAMPION: OK. No, I agree.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: All right. Cari. Beat her -- beat that, Cari.
CHAMPION: Too many -- I can. Too entirely many. Too many stations -- networks.
Meanwhile, here is my thing. I was at the U.S. Open yesterday, and I really enjoyed myself. And I was reading an article about what's going on with the U.S. Open. Attendance is down. Ticket prices are dropping, lowest since 2022.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: What? Dropping.
CHAMPION: And I thought, why is that? And I was -- I was watching Sloane Stephens play on Armstrong, which is one of the big three. And I was looking around, and there was no one there. It was completely empty.
And I thought, well, this is a problem. But here is what I believe: unlike the other slams, the Wimbledon, Australian Open, French Open, America needs some rebranding. We need to start rebranding our homegrown stars.
As soon as I walk into that tennis center, I should be able to see what Americans are playing front and center. A little bio about them. Their pictures plastered everywhere. We got to get people excited about the U.S. Open.
PHILLIP: Kmele?
FOSTER: It's two good points already. There is this sense I have of like kit from Knight Rider, just that all-black super-black car.
I think though that the very best kind of black luxury sedan or vehicle -- vehicular experience one could have is a super black car with a beautiful brown interior.
[07:55:01]
There is something about that black and brown --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I would agree with that.
FOSTER: That I think, is just underappreciated. PHILLIP: Yes, it's not common, which is also what makes it nice.
SUNSHINE: Classic caste.
PHILLIP: All right, Caroline.
SUNSHINE: I have many unpopular opinions, but I think one of my most unpopular is that gym clothes are for the gym. I don't think gym clothes are for errands or in the airport. I'm guilty of this, but I would like to see us move away from being a society where gym clothes are for everyday wear.
People always say like, what's your style? I'm like --
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: Who started this trend? Yes.
SUNSHINE: I don't know.
ROGIN: I got to disagree.
SUNSHINE: But it's like the right thing. Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
PHILLIP: I love a good self-indictment.
ROGIN: What's the -- what's the bother?
CHAMPION: Who started this?
ROGIN: They are comfortable.
SUNSHINE: I'm just saying though.
ROGIN: I got nothing to prove.
SUNSHINE: OK.
PHILLIP: All right, everyone.
Thank you very much for being here. Thanks for watching TABLE FOR FIVE. You can catch me every weeknight at 10:00 p.m. Eastern with our "NEWSNIGHT ROUNDTABLE". But in the meantime, CNN's coverage continues right now.
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