Return to Transcripts main page
Table For Five
CNN Saturday Morning Table for Five. President Trump Continues to Promise $5,000 to Every American if Republicans Retain Control of House of Representatives and Senate; President Trump Criticizes Michigan Democratic Senate Candidate Abdul El-Sayed for His Muslim Faith; New White House Press Secretary Katie Zacharia Criticized for Her Claims to be a Lawyer; Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy Says Trump Administration Pulled Back Its Assistance with Ukraine's War against Russia. Aired 10-11a ET.
Aired October 17, 2026 - 10:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[10:00:32]
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN ANCHOR: Today, the stuntmen. Why Donald Trump and Republicans are resorting to cash and conspiracies to lure midterm voters.
DONALD TRUMP, (R) U.S. PRESIDENT: I'm going to give all adult citizens in the United States of America $5,000.
J.D. VANCE, (R) VICE PRESIDENT: Now, you've got to wonder what the internet search history of a man like that looks like.
PHILLIP: Plus, MAGA attacks the faith of candidates, and the president shares warnings about a holy war.
KID ROCK, MUSICIAN: I don't want to see my grandkids one day have to fight some civil war over religious ideology.
PHILLIP: Also, as questions emerge about the new press secretary's qualifications, is her selection reverse DEI?
KATIE ZACHARIA, FORMER WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I have wanted to work for him for a very long time.
PHILLIP: And for nearly five years, the U.S. has helped Ukraine fight off Russia's invasion. But is the American president on the verge of abandoning the nation?
PIERS MORGAN, FOX NATION HOST: Do you feel betrayed by what has been happening?
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT: Really yes.
PHILLIP: Here in studio, Noah Rothman, Cari Champion, John Avlon, and Geraldo Rivera. It's the weekend. Join the conversation at a "TABLE FOR FIVE".
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Hi, everyone. I'm Abby Phillip.
With a little more than two weeks until the midterms, Donald Trump and Republicans are playing some of their greatest hits of campaign stunts. First, the bribes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, (R) U.S. PRESIDENT: I'm going to give all adult citizens in the United States of America $5,000. Democrat policies won't allow this to happen. In fact, the opposite. They're going to raise your taxes. If the Democrats win, you will have an economic depression. If the Republicans win, you will each have $5,000 in your pocket.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Even most Republicans are against this, saying it will make inflation worse. Second, gaslighting the voters on issues that they care about the most.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, (R) U.S. PRESIDENT: We're bringing prices way down.
You know, we've already stopped the inflation.
We inherited a terrible inflation from Biden. We're doing great.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: And third, fearmongering, whether about the economy or the candidates themselves.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, (R) U.S. PRESIDENT: If the Democrats win, you will have a 1929 style economic depression.
He's Mohamed, and he's a radical jihadist.
He's a member of the Muslim brotherhood.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: And fourth, conspiracies. MAGA tried to push a rumor that James Talarico was in a mental hospital in Ohio before facts blew that all up. And when it didn't work, the second most powerful person in the country pushed baseless innuendo.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) J.D. VANCE, (R) VICE PRESIDENT: Now, before we get started, I love you too, sir, in a totally platonic way. To be clear. I'm the vice president, not James Talarico.
(LAUGHTER)
VANCE: But I got to --
He was asked what he loves in life, besides his own family and friends, and he responded without skipping a beat, and I quote, "trans children." Now, you've got to wonder what the internet search history of a man like that looks like. Ladies and gentlemen, you don't want to find out. Neither do I.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: Not the best sign, John, for Republicans in terms of what they think is actually going to work. It seems like spaghetti is being thrown at the wall every day.
JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: That's because it is. I mean, you know, the cash, the conspiracies. That's all because they know they got a real problem with the corruption and the rising costs. But it more than smacks of desperation. It's ugly if you believe that insulting the truth degrades our democracy. And that's what they're doing every day. And Republicans who try to defend it, I don't know that anyone here will, but the bribes in particular, if a Democrat did one-tenth of this, they'd be, they'd be, you know, calling it out and they'd be right to do it. This is insane.
PHILLIP: It would be called, dare I say, socialism.
AVLON: This would be.
PHILLIP: Sending checks to people in exchange for their votes. I mean, does anybody at the table want to defend the strategy here?
NOAH ROTHMAN, SENIOR WRITER, "NATIONAL REVIEW": Well, if that was the strategy, those four points that you laid out, no, none of these races would be close.
[10:05:03]
I mean, this would be a horrendous wipeout, and it's not going to be a good year for Republicans. But if you look at the state level, certain states, at least, Minnesota, New Hampshire, Michigan, elsewhere, races very close. So the GOP has to have another message in there, right? I mean, it's not just that.
And it isn't just that. No. If you actually listen to how they're campaigning, they're campaigning on some of their accomplishments, among them making the tax cuts permanent, putting more money in your pocket, stuff like that doesn't make the montage. But it's filtering into voters' minds. I mean, there is a reason why Minnesota, for example, is as close as it is. And it's not because there are a bunch of conspiracy nuts out there saying the Democrats are going to make your kids gay or something. I don't even know what they're campaigning on. But they're saying that the corruption over which Tim Walz presided and Peggy Flanagan presided is too much, and we have to actually have a correction. That at the state level, you see that elsewhere.
And that's one of the reasons why Democrats aren't necessarily, you know, saying, slow down here. We have a wave on our hands, but we don't know what the scale of it is. And all these races are within the margin of error. Measure your expectations.
GERALDO RIVERA, PEABODY AWARD WINNING JOURNALIST: But the thing is, sorry, John, you have a you have a situation where inflation is sucking the vitality out of the American economy. It really everybody is poorer, and at record levels, 3.7 percent. So at this rate, what we're doing is feeding into inflation, giving people $5,000. So it's $5,000. It's more than $1 trillion. It's $1,200,000,000,000 in $5,000 checks to each adult American. Talk about -- it's a bribe, but it's also hugely inflationary.
RICHARD ROTH, CNN SENIOR UNITED NATIONS CORRESPONDENT: I mean, he's voided it already by saying you have to keep the House, and the smart money is not on keeping the House.
PHILLIP: It is also kind of an insult to the intelligence of voters who they know that it's not going to happen.
CARI CHAMPION, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, that it's not going to happen and it's a bribe. But I think in this, everyone has said it's interesting because you're like, it's not going to happen. But what if, in fact, by some miracle, the polls are wrong and in fact, he keeps the House and the Senate? Do you think they'll give $5,000 away.
RICHARD ROTH, CNN SENIOR UNITED NATIONS CORRESPONDENT: They'd be on the hook for that. I also wouldn't be surprised if a Democratic majority pursued it, because that's exactly what they did in 2020. Donald Trump said we need $2,000 checks for COVID, and then Republicans didn't. And then they lost and they got $2,000 checks.
CHAMPION: Do you think -- do you think they would do that? Do you think that he would give $5,000 away?
RICHARD ROTH, CNN SENIOR UNITED NATIONS CORRESPONDENT: I think Republicans would be in a difficult position probably. They would wonder how they would have to navigate that having caught the bus. But that would be a good problem to have.
CHAMPION: Well, here's my thing is that this -- my simple point is that no matter what he says, and this is to me, the unfortunate part about our democracy is that no one cares. It's like, whatever you say is fine. We have moved so far away from the truth it doesn't matter what he says, because we've normalized that. OK, that probably won't happen. But anyway, moving on, it's not a big deal.
And I don't think we're talking about it in a way that we should be. In fact, we should all be outraged by the fact that he's trying to bribe the American people so that he keeps the House and the Senate. And we're like, but do you think he'll get the money? Well, this is what they should be campaigning on. We're not even talking about just the basic tenets of what makes us decent and different.
AVLON: Well, that's for sure true. I think the point you're making, though, is that everyone assumes that Donald Trump is lying. That's just baked in the cake, that the president of the United States is a liar. And that's bad for our American democracy.
PHILLIP: It was interesting this week, the FOX News poll found a kind of surprising result that corruption in government is up there as probably the highest issue for voters in this particular poll, followed very closely by inflation and high prices, and, of course, gas prices. That's interesting, because I think there's been this sort of, there's been this undercurrent of these stories about how the president and his family are utilizing government in order to -- and their positions to maximize their wealth, so on and so forth. Kimberly Guilfoyle and her Amex bill, I think a lot of people question whether that penetrates. And it seems like maybe at least for some voters, it does.
RIVERA: I think when the instead of the word "corruption", if they put "nepotism" there, I think that would be more accurate. And I think that's what people are really responding and reacting to, the fact that the family is apparently enriching itself as the president's tenure goes on. And it's very disconcerting to watch someone go from, you know, from $1 million net worth -- I'm making these numbers up -- to $1 billion. People want hard work to be rewarded. They don't want relationships to be rewarded.
And I do think that, uh, inflation is also -- it will be the, the deciding factor, I believe, because people just need to pay for stuff.
PHILLIP: And, and look, these diesel prices.
CHAMPION: Yes, crazy.
PHILLIP: One of the fascinating things that diesel seems like something that the average American doesn't need to worry about because they're not driving diesel cars. But the way the diesel filters into every aspect of their lives, the cost of moving things around in this economy, is starting to really hit regular people. And I don't know. I mean, I think the solution from the administration on this has been ask Russia for a favor. It's problematic.
[10:10:08]
RICHARD ROTH, CNN SENIOR UNITED NATIONS CORRESPONDENT: It's very problematic. It's been flailing. It's not been focused. And it's demonstrated the extent to which the administration doesn't know how to get its hand around prices.
We're in a very familiar place when it comes to that sort of thing. This reminds me very much of the Biden years where they said, listen, the economy has got some great stuff going on. The post COVID recovery is looking pretty good. Look at consumer sentiment. Look at job growth, look at wage growth. Republicans today could say the exact same thing. And yet it wouldn't register because when people say the economy, they mean their individual purchasing power. And individual purchasing power has declined dramatically with rises in food prices, rises in gas prices. The Biden people, they said, listen, we couldn't talk people out of their own personal experience, and Republicans are experiencing the same thing.
AVLON: That's right, except there's an important difference, which is that there's been zero percent wage growth if you add in inflation. Home heating oil is up 74 percent year over year as we're heading into winter, 74 percent. And that's because of Iran, and then trying to give a big to -- a lifeline to Vladimir Putin to bail yourself out of a midterm election problem with the diesel deal is --
CHAMPION: Yes, that's a whole other, that's a whole other --
AVLON: And we're going to get to that. But I mean, that --
ROTHMAN: That same conversation was had in 2022.
CHAMPION: But I don't even know if the deal will change anything with prices. Everyone has said it will be negligible, that you won't even. So, what is the point of even doing it if that's going to be the case?
PHILLIP: I mean, if you really look at the numbers, he -- there are reasons that the Ukraine attacks on Russian oil and gas has contributed. But the real cost is the Iran war. And that was a choice that the president made.
RIVERA: And it's something that people see evidence of every single day. Vietnam was out of sight, out of mind. But when you pass a gas station every single day, the president says things are great. And you look up and you say, oh my God, I'm paying, you know, almost $7 a gallon for diesel, well over $4 a gallon for gas. So are you going to believe the president or are you going to believe your lying eyes?
PHILLIP: All right, next for us -- we've got to leave it there. Next for us, the fearmongering is extending to the faith of candidates, including Kid Rock now warning of a holy civil war, which the president is also echoing.
Plus, is the new White House press secretary an example of DEI in reverse? Why her qualifications are in question today.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[10:17:09]
PHILLIP: Welcome back. Two of the most famous Muslims in the country right now have become the targets of the president and Republicans. The feds searched the home of Ilhan Omar in an extraordinary escalation against the sitting congresswoman and a candidate right before an election. It's related to her immigration background, and Omar says that she won't be silenced.
Abdul El-Sayed, the Democratic nominee in the critical Senate race in Michigan, is being called a terrorist, a bin Laden supporter, a member of the Muslim Brotherhood, and a radical jihadist. His presence in the race led Kid Rock to say this, which Trump reposted. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KID ROCK, MUSICIAN: I was born in Dearborn, Michigan. So was my father raised there. My grandfather raised him there. And as we know, I don't know if people understand how it got to be one of the biggest Arab populations outside of the Middle East in the world. I call it more of a religious ideology. I know there's extremists and there's milder versions of it.
I don't want to see my grandkids one day have to fight some civil war over religious ideology. This is scary. I think El-Sayed is a wolf in sheep's clothing
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: You know, personally, I don't care what Kid Rock has to say about anything, but it is interesting that the president reposted that, because, there is a theme. We've talked about it before, that this is a religious, this is a holy battle between Christianity and Islam. And that's represented by El-Sayed's candidacy.
RIVERA: Well, I think that many, many mainstream Jewish people now have come to believe that that whole wolf in sheep's clothing myth, that canard, that horrible statement. But I tell you, I speak to them face to face, people who I know and love and, you know, who are educated people, and they really are worried that Jewish people, that the country is being undermined or Michigan, particularly, with El- Sayed, that he is, you know, he will suddenly reveal himself to be a radical.
It's awful. It's horrible to deal with, you know. But I think that when you look at the results in the primary, El-Sayed's primary, how all the polls had him so far ahead. And then when the push came to shove, he won by a fraction of a percent. Why? Because educated people, Jewish people, are embarrassed to say they wouldn't vote for a Muslim for fear of, you know, whatever.
PHILLIP: And he also struggled with more traditional Democratic constituencies, including black voters and actually working class voters. But you were reacting.
ROTHMAN: Working class voters. I mean, there are only 100,000 or so Jewish Michiganders.
[10:20:01]
It's a very small constituency, influential though it may be, but nevertheless wouldn't register in the polls if it wasn't a bigger moment.
I don't like that language, and I'll tell you why. It's exactly what El-Sayed does. El-Sayed attributes his own noxious views to the American Muslim population. He says all Muslims believe me. And when he says things like, I can't celebrate the death of Ayatollah Khamenei despite the American blood on his hands because people in my community might be sad. Does that describe the 1 million Persian in the diaspora in this country who didn't celebrate the death of their tormentor? I doubt it. When he says, for example, that we should zero out Israel funding and give it to UNWRA, demonstrating, by the way, that has nothing to do with keeping money in this country. Is he speaking on behalf of the majority of Muslims who told pollsters this year they don't like Hamas? No. He's speaking for himself.
And we should not generalize about the American Muslim population. Republicans shouldn't, like he does, in order to demonstrate that his noxious views, which are his and his alone, are the whole population. You can't get mad at him because you're really getting mad at American Muslims, correct.
PHILLIP: John?
AVLON: look, I mean, the language that grandpa Rock is using is not particularly helpful. We just should update it because the Kid thing doesn't fit anymore.
(LAUGHTER)
AVLON: But this is obviously something, something being hit. And particularly at a time when we're dealing with the rising tide of antisemitism, a lot of people are feeling pretty acutely. Why is it so difficult to make sure you're not applying the same standards? We have no religious tests in this country. You want to criticize someone on their beliefs, they're actually not faith beliefs, but they're actually policy beliefs, let's have that debate.
But the degeneration into fearmongering, as someone who lived through 9/11 up close, to say that someone supports bin Laden, uh, that's just crosses a line when it's about generalizing. Now competing with Hasan Piker, I got a problem with, there are plenty of things I might disagree with --
RIVERA: Has there ever been a president who indulged in that kind of hate?
AVLON: No, not like this.
RIVERA: I mean, he's exacerbating everything.
AVLON: Of course. Of course.
PHILLIP: To your point, let me just play what Trump has been saying about El-Sayed lately. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, (R) U.S. PRESIDENT: His name is Abdul. But I think, as I call him Mohamed Abdul El-Sayed. And he's a Muslim Brotherhood guy, 100 percent, 100 percent. He's a Muslim Brotherhood guy. How about having him be on the Senate Intelligence Committee? How about that? The guy is 100 percent Muslim Brotherhood, and we've got to make sure that Mike Rogers wins, who is central casting.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHAMPION: So this is what I -- this is the first thing. I know that you have been, you spoke very firmly about what you dislike. And you said you have Jewish brothers and sisters who are concerned about him. I think this is something that we're doing and we're making it too, too complicated. We're listening to confirm our bias. I believe all people do that, no matter how objective they are trying to be.
You heard some things you didn't like it. You heard -- your friends, whomever you spoke with, heard some things they didn't like it. I listened to him several, many different speeches that he's given, podcast interviews. He has his own podcast interview. I don't agree with everything he says, absolutely not. But when I listen, I don't hear somebody from the Muslim Brotherhood. I hear somebody who was born and raised in in Michigan, a United States citizen who has his own ideology and his own thoughts that he feels are right based on a work ethic, how he was -- how he was raised.
His father came to this country and wanted to give him, quote-unquote, the American dream, and he's trying his darndest to pursue that in different ways. I don't know, he has not offended me. But hold on, he's not offended me. But I wonder if there was ever an opportunity for someone to hear past what bothers them. If he said nothing about Israel, if he had no thoughts on that, or if he was in the middle, whatever that looks like for you, could you see past that? As soon as you hear something you don't like, you turn it off. You immediately say, he's anti this. All of us do that. And I've watched this man on countless occasions disagree, but with respect. And we and the president can't even give him that. He disagrees with --
ROTHMAN: Allow me to just respond. I agree that we shouldn't judge him on, for example, his familial associations, though they all lean in one direction, or even his associations of choice, like individuals who associate with the minister Louis Farrakhan, Linda Sarsour, Hasan Piker. We can just judge him on what comes out of his mouth. And what comes out of his mouth is claims like Israel and Iran are equal threats to the United States. That hurt people hurt people. When a terrorist attacks targets children in a synagogue, and that has nothing to do with Israel. He's the one who connected it to Israel. His brother was killed. He was a Hezbollah missile commander.
PHILLIP: And he's apologized for that.
ROTHMAN: And yet, and yet, but this -- but he was extremely.
PHILLIP: The attacker and the synagogue attack.
ROTHMAN: Yes. Yes. And he held a conference. I don't know if everyone knows this. It was reported in "Puck". He had a conference call with his with his people after he put that statement out. And he was very proud of himself. He said it was brave for me to say that kind of thing, because it demonstrates that there is a moral equivalence here, and I'm going to stand by it. And what happened in the general election? He didn't stand by it.
PHILLIP: So. So look, I mean, and I think that Cari is actually saying to you, look, I get it. There are a lot of things that people have --
[10:25:02]
ROTHMAN: But this isn't a Jewish thing. It's an American thing. We're talking about terrorism.
PHILLIP: I'm talking about also what the president is doing there, which is, you know, basically calling him a terrorist. That is not true.
ROTHMAN: Yes, I wouldn't say that either. I would say that slanderous. But I would say --
PHILLIP: And also on top of that, I mean, you know, conservatives have spent the week accusing him of being a member of Muslim Brotherhood based on what his biological mother did, who he didn't live with since he was --
CHAMPION: At all.
ROTHMAN: Yes, but it's his sister-in-law, it's his brother-in-law, his father-in-law. But I would say.
PHILLIP: His half-sister with his biological mother, who again, he does not have a relationship with.
ROTHMAN: But at the same time, he signed an open letter supporting Mohamed Morsi in saying you should purge the police and the media.
PHILLIP: But I'm saying is there's a difference between saying your associations are inappropriate and this guy is a terrorist.
ROTHMAN: And I wouldn't use that language.
PHILLIP: And they're calling him a terrorist.
ROTHMAN: And they shouldn't. But I would say is he has a conspicuous habit of viewing terrorist acts through the prism, through the perspective of their perpetrators.
PHILLIP: All right, next for us, the new White House press secretary, Katie Zacharia, already cleaning up a controversy of her own after reports found that she never passed the bar but claimed to be a lawyer.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
[10:30:50]
KATIE ZACHARIA, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I have wanted to work for him for a very long time. I'm looking forward to working with each of you as well, especially as we are in the middle of the midterm blitz with energy and excitement never seen before in the history of midterms thanks to President Trump. (END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: For years, maga has fought against DEI, arguing that merit should trump everything and that the only the only the most qualified should ultimately get the job. So it is interesting that the president gave one of the hardest jobs in government to someone whose qualifications are in serious question. Katie Zacharia is the new press secretary. She was a cable news regular. She briefly worked at DHS and has advised MAGA media, but she also claimed to be a lawyer. But she never passed the bar. When asked, she said she was getting married and she moved to China.
On top of that, officials inside the White House panned her first briefing, calling her stiff and awkward, and wondering how long she'll ultimately last in that job. It is a good question, because Trump doesn't really love these moments of embarrassment.
RIVERA: That's a hard job.
CHAMPION: It's a tough job.
PHILLIP: It's a tough job, which is why, which is why you ought to --
CHAMPION: You got to know what you're doing.
PHILLIP: -- know what you're doing.
CHAMPION: And you have to put your words together. And you should be able to speak to an audience. And you should be able to have a subject and a predicate with a sentence. You have to be able to talk with a sense of conviction, if not confidence, to make me feel as if I understand you.
So if you ask the question, is this a DEI hire? I would say, what is by definition, someone who got the job, who isn't necessarily worthy of it, nor has the actual qualifications, and based on what they look like, that's why they got the job. That's a DEI hire. If you were to actually put that together, that is my take. And that is very honest take. And I am being kind.
When I watched this woman get in front of the press corps and talk, I was I was uncomfortable for her. I was -- I literally felt bad for her because I was like, well, what's going on here? And then you have these, true or not, we haven't checked our sources or cite our sources, rather, but there are all these leaked text messages from the administration saying that they were concerned about whether or not she was the person for the job. Even when they got ready to leave, someone said, tell me where you graduated from law school. You were a lawyer. The president turned around and says, you're a lawyer? As if he had no idea.
PHILLIP: Well, he called her a lawyer when he announced her.
CHAMPION: Yes, but he just was like, I just wanted to be clear. It was -- there were some --
PHILLIP: He wanted her to fill in the blank.
CHAMPION: And she's like, I went to school in China, or I took the bar in China.
PHILLIP: So on the operation piece, she talked about why she was maybe not so prepared in a recent interview. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KATIE ZACHARIA, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Packed up two suitcases, saw my kids, flew home on Sunday, or flew back to D.C. on Sunday, and then started the job on Columbus Day, which is a federal holiday. Monday, Columbus Day, is when I got the briefing materials. And then Tuesday morning they were completed. And I woke up at 3:00 in the morning on Tuesday to prepare with what I had. But they weren't finalized until -- we didn't finalize everything until about 8:00 a.m. And I never had a full briefing beforehand. And I went out and I effectuated the briefing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: That's a lot of, that's a lot of explaining.
RIVERA: I mean, they should have -- they should have really grilled her, prepped her. She's not a lawyer. I'm a lawyer. I'm a lawyer. I went to law school. I passed the bar exam. You're not a lawyer until she passed the bar exam. So someone must have cued up the fact that, hey, you know, you're going to be asked if you're a lawyer. Are you a lawyer? I'm not a lawyer. I'm a law school graduate. You know?
PHILLIP: But also, like, I'm sorry, Columbus Day being a holiday is not an excuse for not being prepared.
AVLON: None of it's an excuse. Maybe you could argue it's cruel for them to put her in that position, but she's obviously unqualified to do that job. And she, you know, she took 14 minutes, 14 minutes. And she took one question which about Ukraine, and she didn't even have the answer to. And she went to "Breitbart," "Daily Mail" and "FOX".
[10:35:03]
So this is someone who is not qualified for this position. The problem is that's part of a pattern, right? Pete Hhegseth isn't qualified to be secretary of defense. Kash Patel is not qualified to be FBI director. Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is not qualified to run HHS. So this is a pattern. The problem is you can look the job, but this job, you actually have to know enough to be able to speak off the cuff clearly. And she cannot.
RIVERA: But it's a self-inflicted injury.
AVLON: Obviously.
RIVERA: I mean, they put her out there and those are lions.
PHILLIP: Why does Trump keep hiring people who are not qualified for their jobs?
RIVERA: Scaramucci is the is the key, though. Will she ask Scaramucci?
ROTHMAN: I think we're just being very uncharitable based on one --
RIVERA: Really?
ROTHMAN: Well, it's one performance. It's clearly, there are a lot of nerves there. You can see it. If were being honest with ourselves.
PHILLIP: Why haven't we seen her since?
ROTHMAN: Not being -- hopefully she's studying the briefing books. Apparently she didn't get nearly enough time to get into that stuff. And yes, you do need that.
On the lawyer thing. Just briefly, it was a great line in "The New York Times" about this, where it said, "based on some interpretations," this is a direct quote, "based on some interpretations, her degree technically makes her a lawyer, but many legal experts would disagree." I'm sure that enthralls Washington, D.C., two-thirds of whom are lawyers or would debate whether or not that's a lawyer. This is not something I have to devote a lot of intellectual energy to.
And then some people will say, well, listen, how are you -- what are you going to do? How are you going to trust the press secretary? To which I would say, you sweet summer child, you trust the press secretary? That's not what you should do. Their job is to give the best narrative on behalf of the administration, not lie, but spin at times, present the narrative that is factually true, but nevertheless reflects as well as possible on their policies. That's the job description. But you've got to go back and fact check that. That's her job.
CHAMPION: You shouldn't be -- you shouldn't have to -- let me tell you, this is how you. You are very generous, Geraldo, by suggesting that it's their fault, by putting her out in front of the media that way. But you should not, by committee, if someone said, what do you do for a living? What do you do for a living? What do you do for -- you don't need a committee to decide what you do for a living, what your title is. She said she consulted with other people, and they all felt like the title of attorney was correct.
RIVERA: When you have the pre job interview and they say you're going to be asked this, you're going to be asked that, you're going to be asked this. The real test is whether or not she passes Scaramucci 19 days, 11 days.
AVLON: This is an insane situation. And I'd also say, by the way, shout out, you know, there's been a lot of reporting on this now, but jetlag (ph) from popular information I think had the scoop. So he deserves credit.
PHILLIP: Did break this story. That's correct. All right, next for us is President Trump abandoning Ukraine?
President Zelenskyy says that some recent moves have him feeling betrayed. We'll debate that next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PHILLIP: Welcome back. Is Donald Trump giving up on Ukraine? A major turning point this week on several fronts. First, Volodymyr Zelenskyy says that Trump betrayed Ukraine by cutting an oil deal with Vladimir Putin. Then Trump announced an imaginary ceasefire between the two countries, apparently without talking to either side about it. And after a threat by the administration of suspending intelligence sharing, Ukraine didn't receive warning about Russian missile attacks this week. Then Ukraine accused Elon Musk of restricting Starlink, which Musk then blamed on the U.S. government. It's worth noting Musk has been critical of Zelenskyy. And on top of all of that, the president is now openly saying that the -- that Ukraine needs a new leader.
Noah, you've written about this. The president is inexplicably always taking Putin's side. That's been an issue for him for a while. But in this particular conflict, he seems unwilling or unable to see Ukraine as a party in this that is the victim.
ROTHMAN: Yes. There is very little consistency here from the president. As much as I would like to attack him consistently, we've seen this before. We've seen this manic relationship he has with Zelenskyy. He hates him. And all of sudden he turns against Putin, and then gives a lot of weapons to Ukraine via Europeans. He hates them so much when they don't sign the mineral deal, and they sign the mineral deal and they get no credit for it, by the way. But then he, you know, supports Ukrainian defenses.
This is particularly egregious, this particular, this last event. And I have no doubt that we will see another reversal because we've seen so many of them before. But cutting off Starshield, not Starlink, which is operated by the Pentagon, apparently has been confirmed by the United States government, but no one will take credit for it. The president said he didn't stop intelligence sharing, but Kyiv says they did.
And there's just a lot of confusion on our side, whereas the Ukrainian side is 100 percent clear about beat by beat what happened and who is responsible for it. So it tells you that they don't have any confidence in this White House in their policy of being skeptical to Ukraine, and they shouldn't. It's entirely pathological. It makes no sense. It's strategically incoherent as well as being morally repugnant.
And it's on the wrong side of the American people. There are elements within the Pentagon, elements within this administration, many of whom orbit around J.D. Vance, who are constantly trying to get the United States to extricate itself from Europe. And that is the broader goal of Vladimir Putin's Kremlin, to extricate the United States from Europe. They share an objective.
[10:45:00]
RIVERA: It's disgusting. It's disgusting. It's repugnant to think about denying them intelligence as the missiles are flying and people are dying. I read one report, three babies, another one four children. I mean, it's just disgusting. How can -- how can how low can this --
PHILLIP: And it's also -- it's also deflecting blame, because as we talked about earlier, yes, the Ukraine attacks on the Russian oil fields have contributed to a bad situation with fuel prices. But it's not the cause.
AVLON: No.
PHILLIP: It's actually not the cause.
AVLON: No, it's the Trumps war in Iran.
But look, this is a scandal, and it's part of a larger pattern. This isn't been so herky-jerky. Donald Trump always ends up returning to Vladimir Putin. The one person on earth he won't say anything bad about is Vladimir Putin. He'll trash the Pope before he trashes Vladimir Putin. And now Vladimir Putin is losing on the battlefield, and he throws him a lifeline with a direct cash payment. And so this is, this is, this is something that's so un-American, to back the autocratic aggressor against a democracy fighting for its survival. And it's just one of a million examples.
PHILLIP: So let me let me just play Zelenskyy commenting on this relationship that John was just talking about between Trump and Vladimir Putin.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT: Putin is an enemy for us. And he is a real evil of today, of today. I mean, absolutely. How Trump can be friend with him? If you ask us to help with the situation, of course, we're like the partners, we will help. But we are asking you. So energy ceasefire, if not energy ceasefire, it doesn't depend on you. OK. The question, can you give me missiles for Patriot? Because when I will not attack them because you asked me not attack them, they will attack me. It's fair if you will give me with what to defend. It's the minimum what I ask? No. I think yes. And when I'm asking this, your answer is blocking Starlink.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP: And CNN is also reporting that Ukraine has run out of Patriot missiles, which is why some of these attacks have gone through and have killed a lot of people just in the last few days. So it's a life and death situation and nobody can understand it.
CHAMPION: Yes. And I, and I will say this, for Zelenskyy to be so honest as he appears to be. Who knows? Right. But he appears to be extremely honest. And at the end of the day, he is fighting for his country. He's fighting for the people of his country. And what he said, how can you be friends with this man? This man is evil, and you all know this. It's on record. Why then are you asking me to risk the lives of my people so that you can, in short, win an election or appear to be doing something about gas prices that you inflicted upon your people by allowing this man, Putin, to continue to harm my people. Why am I getting the short end of the deal? That's how I feel is what he's saying to us. And he's like, none of this can be fair.
PHILLIP: Next, the panel's unpopular opinions, what they're not afraid to say out loud.
But first, a quick programing note for you. Tonight on "The Whole Story", Donie O'Sullivan talks to current and former MAGA faithful about the future of the Republican Party. That's tonight at 8:00 p.m. on CNN, and the next day on the CNN app.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[10:53:12]
PHILLIP: We are back. And it's time for your unpopular opinions. Geraldo, you're up.
RIVERA: Well, I think the best place to while away your days, your melancholy, is in a gloomy dive bar in Cleveland watching the Guardians win the pennant in the World Series. That'll make you brighten up your day.
PHILLIP: That sounds depressing as hell. OK.
AVLON: Popular opinion is let's have a Brewers-Guardians World Series. That'd be great.
PHILLIP: All right, Avlon?
AVLON: But my unpopular opinion is that people should be taking Rahm Emanuel's presidential prospects seriously. I know that's it's not going to win miss congeniality, but as bill Clinton famously said, people will vote for strong and wrong every time. And he's doing it right when it comes to the work of running for president with regard to policies. He's studying how Mississippi is turning around the education system. He's talking about universal national service. He's talking about early buy in for Medicare and Medicaid. He's talking about ways that we can encourage more folks to get vocational schools and trades. So this is -- and an anti-corruption agenda. This is a serious, thoughtful approach he's making as he considers to run for president. And I think there's a lane. You shouldn't count him out.
PHILLIP: I wouldn't count anybody out at this stage.
AVLON: That's right.
CHAMPION: Wrong, wrong. All right, OK, so that might be the same with me.
PHILLIP: Cari?
CHAMPION: I am of the belief this has nothing to do with politics. This is a true, a study that I've conducted, probably a small sample size, but for the last couple of weeks, I was in California and I would go to this one particular cafe that I love called La Petite (ph). It is a French restaurant, and all the food had nothing but butter. And when I tell you it's the best thing that I've ever had in my life. Which leads me to the conclusion that butter isn't bad for you. American people, knock it off. Butter is good for you. Have it with all things. Lather it on. There are alternatives. You can even do the alternative with a little bit of the sticky stuff, the bad stuff. Have more butter.
[10:55:00]
PHILLIP: Forget about the alternatives. I'm with you.
CHAMPION: Butter.
PHILLIP: Butter is, butter is good.
ROTHMAN: That's not an unpopular with me.
(LAUGHTER)
CHAMPION: People, people are healthy.
ROTHMAN: Don't need permission.
CHAMPION: Do it. Just go right in. Go butter.
ROTHMAN: Boba pearls are proliferating. Theres too many of them. They're now finding their way into drinks at McDonalds.
CHAMPION: Wait, what?
ROTHMAN: Boba pearls. There are too many boba pearls. Nobody likes them. I don't know why they're everywhere.
RIVERA: What is it?
ROTHMAN: Boba pearls. These little packets.
PHILLIP: Tapioca.
ROTHMAN: So you're having, you're having a drink. Surprise! Here's another packet of fluid in your mouth. Nobody wants it. Nobody wants it. We need it that way. We need to pull back on the boba pearls.
(LAUGHTER)
RIVERA: I think we should stop the presses.
PHILLIP: I did not know that was a thing. That used to be a thing when I was in college.
CHAMPION: No, they're everywhere. You're right about that.
PHILLIP: All right, everybody, thank you very much for being here. Thanks for watching "TABLE FOR FIVE". You can catch me every weeknight at 10:00 p.m. eastern with our Newsnight roundtable. But in the meantime, CNN's coverage continues right now.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
