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CNN Talkback Live

Does 'The Sopranos' Unfairly Portray Italian-Americans as Mobsters?

Aired April 09, 2001 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THE SOPRANOS")

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm the boss of this family. You forget.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: I forget nothing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOBBIE BATTISTA, HOST: When you think Italian, do you think mob?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THE SOPRANOS")

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: It's none of your business.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BATTISTA: Chicago's American Italian Defense Association says HBO's "The Sopranos" feeds a stereotype that's derogatory and violates the Illinois Constitution's guarantee of individual dignity.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THE SOPRANOS")

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: You going to stop this before it gets out of hand?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're looking for a vindication of our reputation.

BATTISTA: So they're suing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THE SOPRANOS")

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: That is outrageous.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All Italian-Americans are not gangsters.

(END VIDEO CLIP) (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's exciting, it's different, you know. Good program.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're not bothered or offended by it?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not really.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BATTISTA: Some say if art offends, it should be stopped. Others say, "Forget about it." What do you say?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THE SOPRANOS")

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Next time you come in, you come heavy or not at all.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BATTISTA: Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. I decided to come back to work this week. You all know the names, we've all heard of them -- Bonnano, Gambino, Colombo, Genovese, Corleone, and Soprano -- mob families real and imagined. Gangland, ethnic images that many American Italians would like rubbed out. And they say HBO's "The Sopranos" just continues an ongoing stereotype. The lawsuit against the producers of the show includes Time Warner, which we should mention is parent to both CNN and HBO. And HBO has issued a statement to us saying, quote, "We are very proud of 'The Sopranos'. We are hardly alone in our assessment that the show is an extraordinary artistic achievement."

Having said that, with us now is Ted Grippo, chairman of the American Italian Defense Association. He is also an attorney.

And Ted, it is your group that has filed the lawsuit. What offends you so much about this show?

TED GRIPPO, CHAIRMAN, AMERICAN ITALIAN DEFENSE ASSOCIATION: Well, I think principally it is the fact that it's not just about the Mafia. Actually, it's about the social and family life of Italian Americans. There are many non-Mafia characters that are portrayed in what I consider and organization considers to be a vile and profane way. And in many cases, they participate and support the Mafia characters. So this gives a very bad image of all Italian Americans, not just the Mafia.

BATTISTA: Most people would know that, though, wouldn't you assume? Or are you worried that, say, some folks, I don't know, from Iowa who have never met Italians would think that all Italians are like this?

GRIPPO: Well, I think that if we don't recognize that television influences people's opinions of things, I think we're kidding ourselves. All advertising is based on it. No, I think a lot of people do think that this is -- they claim it's an actor portrayal of these people, and all of the people and those that are not even Italian Americans. And I think that a lot of people do get influenced by it. In fact, it's a known fact. There's been studies made, a statistical analysis was made, and 74 percent of American people associate Italian Americans with the mob, with organized crime.

BATTISTA: Well, as I understand it, David Chase, who's the creator of this show and the producer, is an Italian American and grew up in that part of New Jersey as did I, I might add. And so are you saying that you think the stereotypes that he might be employing in this show are not accurate at all or there's nothing real to them?

GRIPPO: I would say that the portrayal of non-Mafia characters that are Italian American, the way they've portrayed them is not accurate with respect to the great, great bulk, 99 percent of Italian Americans. Yes, that is they are not portrayed accurately.

BATTISTA: And so you mean characters in the show that are not mob related in the show like the neighbor or the restaurant owner or...

GRIPPO: That's right, the neighbor, yeah, all of those people, including Dr. Malfi, who I do not believe beneficially portrays a psychoanalysis, and I'll give you my reasons when it's appropriate.

BATTISTA: But does that have anything to do with the fact that she's Italian or you just don't...

GRIPPO: No, but here you take a series that's put on every week, replayed over and over again for -- we're in our third year going into our fourth year next year -- they claim they're going forward -- and there isn't a noble, decent character in the whole bunch, including the non-Mafia Italian Americans. I think that sends a terrible message.

And let me say this. There's a lot of precedent for what we're doing here, if you'd stop and think for a while. Do you remember when "Amos & Andy" was on the radio and on TV, and the African-Americans were very opposed? They took -- it was taken off. Do you remember when the Puerto Ricans attacked those women in Central Park just a few months ago during Puerto Rican Day parade and that show, "Law and Order," put on a one-hour show displaying the Puerto Ricans in that fashion? I understand the Puerto Ricans were outraged, and CBS, the producer of that show, apologized. They took it off the air. Now that's censorship.

Our lawsuit is not censorship. Our lawsuit is not asking for a restraint on the showing of "The Sopranos," although we'd like to see it disappear, but we know that free speech lets them do what they want to do, and it's not for money damages. It's for our ability to try to get our dignity back through a provision of the Illinois Constitution, which happens to be unique in all constitutions of this country. So we're applying our arguments through the law based on the Illinois Constitution.

BATTISTA: Let me -- as a matter of fact, you bring that up, the Illinois Constitution, Section 20 is what you're basing your lawsuit on, and we have that on the screen for folks. And that state, "To promote individual dignity, communications that portray criminality, depravity or lack of virtue in, or that incite violence, hatred, abuse or hostility toward a person or group of persons by reason of or by reference to religious racial ethnic national or regional affiliation are condemned." Lot of lawyer speak in there, but basically...

GRIPPO: Basically, it's condemning what we believe this show portrays.

BATTISTA: And what precedent do you have in the state of Illinois for winning this case?

GRIPPO: Well, when you say precedent for winning, there are a lot of original cases that test these things out for the first time. This constitutional provision has had only one other look see by the courts in Illinois. And we are prepared to give a lot more attention to it and test it out all the way to the Illinois Supreme Court or beyond if necessary. So it's not unusual for provisions to come up for the first time or the second time.

BATTISTA: Are you advocating that at this point, there really should be no further movies, television shows, books or whatever on the mob?

GRIPPO: Oh, not at all. Oh, no, no, not at all. All we're saying is that when a series -- not a movie either. We're talking about a week in and week out, year in and year out series over and over, replayed over and over that crosses the line. Now all we're saying here is we're asking the court to give us a declaration that this thing falls into that category. They can play it all they want. We're not asking for damages. Does it fall within the condemnation of the Constitution of the Illinois? That gives us the freedom-of-speech right to equate our views with those of Time Warner, a hundred- billion-dollar corporation, that happens to control 40 or 50 percent of the magazines and has vast economic power, control if you will, or influence if you will, on the channels of communications. They can over -- they can beat up on an ethnic group. We have very little ways to respond except we can go to the courts. And if the courts give us this relief, we have a little bit more of an even playing field to respond. They're out there every day promoting this show. It's on the cover of "Rolling Stones." It's on the cover of all kinds of magazines. I've heard rumors that they're even forming "Soprano" fan clubs around. They're on tee-shirts, they're all over the place.

BATTISTA: Well, I want to come back and ask you, you know, why you think this show is so popular, but let me bring in another guest first before I have to go to commercial here.

GRIPPO: Sure.

BATTISTA: Joining us is comedian Pat Cooper, who is an Italian- American comedian, we should say. Actually, your name is Pasquale Caputo, correct?

PAT COOPER, COMEDIAN: That's correct. BATTISTA: And that's another story.

COOPER: That's another story. When I quit work under that name, where were these people defending my right to be Pasquale Caputo? Where were they? Let me ask him that question? All of a sudden...

GRIPPO: You want to ask me that question?

COOPER: All of a sudden, 2001, we're all being offended now. I was offended, I didn't say nothing. I understood that was the way America was in those days. I'm an Italian. I come from great family, and I never worry about nothing being Italian. These movies don't bother me. The greatest movie that was ever made as far as I was concerned is "The Godfather." It never offended me. It didn't offend my family. And we got to get on with better important things in this country than worrying about suing Time Warner or Warner suing CNN and ABC suing (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

(APPLAUSE)

BATTISTA: Let me go back and ask, because obviously, the audience is trying, I think, to sympathize but perhaps they're not by that response. Why do you think that this show is so popular?

COOPER: Because, listen, it's entertainment that's up to date today. That's what people want to see. We got karate pictures going on. You got the African-American people beating each other on the screen. Now we're going to start suing everybody in the world. We can't do nothing on the screen. Let's take pornography off. Let's take all the words off. Let's just go in the yard and ferment.

(LAUGHTER)

I mean, come on, who are we kidding? This is the greatest country in the world. We have the First Amendment, number one. You got a guy called Howard Stern who turned around and tells people you cannot talk about him. He's making $100 million in five years. You can't talk about him but he can talk about you. And where's the FCC defending all our first rights? Where is the FCC now?

BATTISTA: Let me go to...

COOPER: And this gentleman from Illinois, and I respect him highly, is telling you about the laws of Illinois. Then tell Illinois turn the dial and don't show the "The Sopranos," and let's go on and help our country get the Chinese people back. That's more important.

Ted? Ted, do you want to respond?

GRIPPO: Can I respond?

BATTISTA: Yes, you may.

GRIPPO: Well, first of all, we're not talking about taking the show off. He's got to understand that. We're not asking to take the show off, and we're not asking for damages. We're asking for our voice to be heard in opposition to a company that is spending, what, $100 million to beat up on an ethnic group. We think we have a right to respond.

COOPER: They're not beating up on an ethnic group.

GRIPPO: I'm sorry, I think that they are, sir.

COOPER: Oh, no, you're wrong. Let me tell you I came from a family...

GRIPPO: Well, why don't we go to court and the find out about it?

COOPER: Counselor, counselor, I came from familia. Familia is what I come from. All the people in my neighborhood were great Italians.

And let me tell you something about ethnic people coming to this country. Every one of them was oil-painting masterpiece. They put this country on the map: Italians, black, white, green, or blue. How come we turn and got all of a sudden now we're offended? And I'll give you one better.

Years ago when I grew up being Italian, the Sicilians hated the (UNINTELLIGIBLE). The (UNINTELLIGIBLE) hated the Roman people. The Roman people hated (UNINTELLIGIBLE) people. We hated each other.

And you know what's wrong the Italian culture? I'll tell you. We don't stick together. There are 30 million Italians in America and nobody knows where we are. We don't stick together. And that's the big problem. Let's help the Italian people out.

BATTISTA: But I thought they were good at organizing.

COOPER: They're not organizing.

GRIPPO: I don't know. Can somebody else say anything here?

BATTISTA: Sorry. You know what, I got to take a quick commercial break, so I'll let you respond. When we come back, we have some Italian-Americans in the audience who also want to respond.

And the question today: Do you think the "The Sopranos" unfairly portrays American-Italians. Take the TALKBACK LIVE online viewer vote at cnn.com/talkback. AOL keyword, CNN. A little later this hour, we'll meet an actor who has made a living playing mobsters, see how he feels about it. We'll be back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(INTERRUPTED FOR LIVE EVENT)

BATTISTA: All right, Joie, thanks.

And we just happen to have in our audience today Shaun King, who is quarterback with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers with his group, King's Dream, and his kids in the audience who are all part of that group. And so we thought we'd get your reaction to -- no surprise, I'm sure, to Troy Aikman's retirement.

SHAUN KING, TAMPA BAY BUCCANEERS, QUARTERBACK: Well, first of all, I have a lot of respect for Troy and what he's been able to accomplish, you know, in 12 seasons. You know, it's a sad day for the NFL. I think we lost a great quarterback, and, you know, as evidenced by his remarks, a great person. And I think it takes a lot for an athlete, you know, that has accomplished all he's accomplished to give it up to be with his family. And I wish him the best, you know, whatever he decides to pursue. And hopefully, we can learn from the example that he's set. You know, he's one of the few players that was able to stay with one franchise and accomplish all the things he was able to accomplish. So I think it's a sad day for the NFL. It's also an exciting day for him and now he'll get to spend more time with his family and be a father and be a husband and just enjoy life.

BATTISTA: All right, Shaun, thanks very much. And by the way, how do you feel about "The Sopranos" while I have you -- notice that segue.

KING: Well, I think we're dealing with TV. I think you have to be careful in that when you do that to one program, why do you single out "Sopranos," you know, where there's a lot of different programs that, you know, misrepresent or stereotype different cultures? And I think you have to take TV for what it is. And it's entertainment. And I think it says a lot about a person when you allow TV to really shape, you know, what view or what you think about a culture.

BATTISTA: And that is we're talking about today, "The Sopranos," a series on HBO about the mob. There is a group of Italian-Americans out there, probably bigger than we think, who is not amused and not entertained by this show, and they filed a lawsuit looking basically, Ted, for your dignity back. If you are not, we were talking about it during the commercial break. If you're not looking for money and you're not looking for censorship, are you just looking to put this discussion out there to make people aware of the fact?

GRIPPO: Well, not that alone. We want to have a ruling from the court. Look, there's a constitutional provision. And the same constitution that gives the right of Mr. Cooper to make the statements he made, the free speech provisions of that constitution are there. But there's also an individual dignity clause in the Illinois Constitution. You know, you can't pick and choose the constitutional provisions you want to abide by. We're willing to accept the free speech. We're willing to accept Mr. Cooper's statements. He has a right to make them. We disagree with him. And I would hope that he would understand that if we want to go to court to ask the court to decide if the "The Sopranos" falls within the condemnation of the Illinois Constitution, we ought to have that right. And if it does, it gives us an ability to equate somewhat so to what is going on with Time Warner spending $100 million a year or in the last two or three years presenting what we think is a false image of Italian-Americans. And that's the way that it is. And I don't think this a popularity contest either among your audience. If they all disagree, we still believe in the principle. Many, many important principles of our life have been established from people that have come from a minority position.

Well, let me ask my Italian-Americans in the audience then.

Wally, you're from Missouri. What are your thoughts?

WALLY: Well, I'm proud to be an Italian-American, and my own personal opinion is I've never seen the show, but it doesn't bother me if Italians are portrayed that way, because anyone with any common sense knows that not all Italians are that way, just as they know all other ethnic backgrounds are not stereotyped in the situation where they're portrayed on television. To me, it's fiction. And I think you've got to take it for what it's worth.

What concerns me is that the people that benefit from all the litigious things that go on in our society are the attorneys. And they will make a fortune hand over fist. And that's my opinion.

(APPLAUSE)

BATTISTA: Mike in the audience, another Italian-American, you feel differently, though. You are bothered by this show?

MIKE: Well, first of all, I just want to clarify, as an Italian- American or just as a person, as a human being, as an American, I have a stance on this. And I also just want to clarify that it really doesn't bother me about the show, but I do value both sides -- you know, opinions on this issue. And as I said earlier, I think, you know, it's about balance, showing, yes, we can show the mob scenes and what-not, but also showing other parts of the culture that many people do not get to see.

As a person with an organization called the NCCJ, the National Conference for Community and Justice, a national human relations organization, we work with thousands of young people in the Tampa Bay area, who do not get this exposure to other sorts of cultures and then perceptualize and create and conceptualize their own view of what people are. And without that true exposure of building relationships with other people, they're going to learn it from the media and many of the adults as well.

And I also want to say that the other gentleman mentioned that as Americans, we need to get on with things. Well, let's just remind ourselves that many Americans, you know, died for the rights to be treated with dignity and respects, and still many people today are struggling with this, struggling to be included in opportunity. And so, anything that we can do to -- you know, whether -- if it's going to take a court case to open more people's eyes and also to just get this talking, so be it.

BATTISTA: Quick, quick, Mike. OK, Mike, thanks very much.

I've got to take a quick break here. When we come back, we'll talk more with Pat Cooper. And also, if you're in love with mob movies, you'll recognize our next guest. You could say that he's made a pretty good living off the Mafia. We'll be back in just a few moments. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: A couple of e-mails that I haven't gotten to here. Let me get to the names. Steve in Eagle River, Arkansas says, "If I were to believe that all Italians were like these mobsters, then I would have to believe that all white Southerners were racist, all blacks were drug dealers, and all rich folks were clueless. The facts are simple. It's a TV show. Thanks God Gilligan is safe on that island and doesn't have to see this."

Benedict in Boston, Mass. says, however, "Every financially successful Italian-American is questioned about mob ties in his or her lifetime because of stereotypes like those this show promotes. But I guess it's not offensive if it doesn't happen to you."

All right. When mob movies are cast, Ray Serra seems to have that look. He has played parts in "Prizzi's Honor," "Sugar Hill," and "Men of Means," as well as HBO's "Gotti."

Ray, nice to have you here with us.

RAY SERRA, ACTOR: Hi. How are you doing?

BATTISTA: Good. How do you feel when you portray Italian- Americans that are connected to the mob, which you've certainly have done a lot of? I mean, do you feel like you're feeding that stereotype? Does it bother you?

SERRA: No. First of all, I'm an actor, and I take roles not being Italian-American or being any kind of an ethnic group. I take roles as being an actor, same as the "Sopranos" do right now. They take roles -- they are all actors, every one of them.

I have worked with them in "The John Gotti Story." We don't really care that an ethnic group is displayed in one way or another. Simply because "The Sopranos" are a snowflake in a million. We have 30 million Italians in this country. "Sopranos" represent a snowflake, one shit, and it's a hit.

So what happens? They came out of the woodwork. They say, they got a hit, it's making us look bad, let's sue them. That doesn't work. .

BATTISTA: Pat Cooper, let me ask you this. Let me ask you both, Ray and Pat. Is the portrayal that we get of this Italian American family in suburbia and this kind of thing -- I mean, is it accurate? Are people supposed to believe that it's accurate?

COOPER: It's not accurate. You can't tell me my family did that. You can't tell me my neighborhood did that.

And let me ask you another question to the gentleman. We had a guy called John Gotti, who was supposed to be the number one gangster in the United States. Here is a man who went to jail one year before his trial. He could not get bail. Where were these organizations of Italians saying, what happened to the constitution of this man's right?

Whether he is a murderer or not, he was not convicted. How come we don't defend our own when it's the right thing to do? All of a sudden, everybody is coming out of the woodwork now and saying we're all offended. Why don't they stop bombing in Puerto Rican, those islands? What about those poor people? Let's start with that, things that are more important. Forget it! It's only a show.

SERRA: Nobody -- nobody (UNINTELLIGIBLE). All the representation that you see on TV and the movies -- "The Godfather" wasn't exactly a Christmas card -- about Italians. But everybody loved it. They know, even Marlon Brando had to audition for the role. He's an actor. It's entertainment. Very, very simple.

BATTISTA: You know, but it's also...

(CROSSTALK)

BATTISTA: But it's different. I mean, I had read an editorial here in "The New York Times." It written by Bill Tonelli, who is, I think, assistant managing editor with "Rolling stone," where, actually, you know, he said: "The Corleones are like the Kennedys, and the Sopranos are like the Simpsons."

I mean, so -- in a way, there's a different culture between what we saw and read about in "The Godfather." And maybe that's the point. I don't know, Pat. I mean, are the times changing for Italian Americans? Is the culture changing?

COOPER: It's the same story over and over again. That's all it is. They talked about Frank Sinatra. He made -- everybody wrote 90 books about this guy. It's the same story. How many times do you think this guy lived?

And let's talk about Italian people in our business who don't help each other. Let's talk about that. Let's talk about our own culture, saying, let's flaunt how great we are! Let's tell our kids about how great our culture is! And P.S.: we are not Italian- Americans. We are American Italians! This is my country. I'm tired of Italian-American, African-American! What happened to America, dammit! I'm tired of that nonsense!

BATTISTA: How do you really feel, Pat? I have got to take a break here. We will continue. We will continue in just a minute.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: Let me go to audience here and get some feedback. Sheila, go ahead, your comment.

SHEILA: I was just commenting during the break, that being of Irish background, there is a new show out called "The Fighting Fitzgeralds," and the very title itself denotes, you know, the Irish are just fighting all the time. And I, as an Irish person, just feel like the community -- and everyone else here has said that it's just television, it's just entertainment. And whatever Brian Dennehy does in the role of the Fitzgerald, I will proud of it whatever, because I know it will be good entertainment.

BATTISTA: All right. Caroline, on the phone from Virginia. Caroline, go ahead.

CAROLINE: Hi, guys.

BATTISTA: Hi.

CAROLINE: We're Italians, in fact, my husband is Varese. We come from Udine. We're as Italian as they come. I love "The Godfather," we have the tape. I love the "Sopranos." We enjoy it.

And down in Virginia here, when we moved here, they were very suspicious of us, Italians from New York. They call us the Eye- talians, they think of the mafia. They think if you're Italian, there's something connected with you.

All I'm saying is, I'm concerned with the ethnic portrayal of Italians in a bad life. Not because the show is bad. The show is good. But they don't understand how good Italians are, the artists, the musicians, the theater, all the wonderful contributions to this country. My father laid the tiles in the subways in New York. All the wonderful artwork that they've had. We're proud of all this. We have good parts. We don't murder people. This is what we want to show. Thank you.

BATTISTA: Got it, Caroline, got it. Good point. Ray, don't you think that some American Italians get very wary of the mob?

(CROSSTALK)

SERRA: The attorney from Illinois is probably doing more damage to the Italian reputation by this lawsuit than any other film on TV.

GRIPPO: Well, I'd like to...

SERRA: Let me tell you something about...

GRIPPO: Can I say in word in response to that, please?

SERRA: All right.

GRIPPO: We are getting hundreds and hundreds of phone calls and e-mails supporting what we are doing. There's a definite silent majority of out there of Italian-Americans who have kept their heads down because they were ashamed of so many things. They are coming back now. You're wrong about that.

(CROSSTALK)

GRIPPO: Let me finish! May I finish? Let me make another statement about the gentleman who has talked only about the attorneys making money. We're not making any money on this. We are not asking for damages. All the work is being done is pro bono, if you understand what that means.

SERRA: I know what it means.

GRIPPO: It means for nothing -- but for the public good is really what it means. Give us the same opportunity you have for free speech. Give it to us as well.

SERRA: Sure.

GRIPPO: Let us express our views.

SERRA: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) toward the country that we're so insecure that every time they mention an Italian name, we have to sue somebody. This is entertainment! We do this for a living.

GRIPPO: Seventy-four percent of the American people believe that Italian-Americans...

(CROSSTALK)

GRIPPO: Well, I'm sorry but they are. There are statistics to show it -- 74 percent of the American people believe that Italian Americans are associated with organized crime. That's not a legacy that I want to leave to my children and grandchildren. Moreover...

(CROSSTALK)

GRIPPO: Let me finish, and then I'll shut up! Moreover, in the memory of my mother and father and our grandparents who came across on that very dangerous and fearful crossing to give us a better way of life, I cannot let this constant defamation of the Italian-American community to go unchallenged. I'm proud to fight for it.

SERRA: My mother and father were on the same both as your parents. They came here -- they didn't anything was going to -- what was going to happen. And one thing you don't realize...

GRIPPO: And you know they had a hard time.

SERRA: So did I!

GRIPPO: Yes they did.

SERRA: And we managed it, and we're not insecure. Let me tell you about "The Sopranos." Those guys that you see playing tough guys are actors. They are good people. Take, for instance, Paulie Walnuts. Paulie Walnuts is one of the sweetest guys next to his mother, dedicated to her. Dominic Chianese. Chianese, right there. He also very, very sweet man. Mike (UNINTELLIGIBLE), one of the stars on the show, dedicated...

GRIPPO: You're only proving my point, you're only proving my point!

SERRA: What I'm saying to you is that they are actors doing a job.

GRIPPO: You're proving my point. SERRA: No I'm not.

GRIPPO: Yes, you are.

SERRA: What I'm saying to you is that maybe you're making us all feel like you shouldn't be doing this.

BATTISTA: Are you saying Ray is a sellout, Ted, if he takes a role like that?

GRIPPO: I hate to use the word sellout. These people are mistaken. They're simply mistaken.

SERRA: Let me tell you something, Sir Anthony Hopkins...

(CROSSTALK)

GRIPPO: They're looking for opportunities. They haven't been given the opportunities in Hollywood except to play these kind of parts. You never see an Italian -- you hardly ever...

(CROSSTALK)

SERRA: What are you talking about?

BATTISTA: But that's what you're saying. You sound like you're saying like those parts should be eliminated.

GRIPPO: No, no. There should be other parts. There should be balance. There is no balance on this program. Everybody is a bad character. Everybody in "The Sopranos" is a bad character. There isn't a proper person among them.

There's only what, maybe 10 guys on the show out of 30 million. What are we talking about here? What are we talking about?

GRIPPO: No, no, they're portraying the family and social life of Italian-Americans.

SERRA: They are portraying the script. They are actors.

(CROSSTALK)

BATTISTA: I should say that they have dealt with this issue on the show. If you recall, Doctor Melfi's husband on the show was obsessed with the ethnicity of her rapist, and could not believe it was -- it could have been an Italian who raped her. So, clearly, they take this issue seriously.

GRIPPO: Except they made the rapist an Italian. They didn't make him black. They didn't make him Jewish. They made him Italian.

BATTISTA: I think they did that in order to put the issue on the table that this is sensitive.

GRIPPO: Why did they make an Italian the rapist? SERRA: Like there are no Italian rapists that you know?

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: No, make the Chinese guy a rapist, so this way, we're perfect. We don't do none of those things. Now let me say something. If the Jewish men played the Italian part, we would accuse the Jewish people of hating the Italians. That's why they're playing the part. So, there's no beginning or end here. There's a center. Right now, we're in neutral.

BATTISTA: I've got to take a break. We'll be back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: The Sons of Italy-New Generation lost its permit to hold a Columbus Day event at the state capitol in Denver. A group called End the Politics of Cruelty, affiliated with the American Indian movement, reserved the space first. About 140 protesters were arrested last year during the Columbus Day parade at the capitol. Some American Indians and Hispanics believe Columbus was responsible for the genocide of their ancestors.

A couple of e-mails. Stephen in Pennsylvania says: "This lawsuit is ridiculous. What's next, are inmates going to sue "Oz" for negatively portraying prison life and inmates? Maybe I should sue these guys for negatively portraying lawyers as people who will sue anybody for anything."

R.J. in Marino Valley, California, says: "The Italian community is just now realizing what American Indian, black, Latin and Asian people living in America have been dealing with since the dawn of TV. Maybe this will finally make people see that not all Asians know kung fu, not all black people can play basketball and not all Latinos are drug dealers."

All right, joining us now is James Poniewozick, who is the TV critic for "Time" magazine. James, good to see you.

JAMES PONIEWOZICK, TV CRITIC, "TIME" MAGAZINE: Thanks a lot.

BATTISTA: Again, you know, what makes this difficult, I think, to criticize in some respects, and I know I sound like an artistic sell-out here, but it's because the show is so good. It's so well done; correct?

PONIEWOZICK: Exactly, I mean, and it's not just me. It's pretty much universal consensus among TV critics that this is really one of the best shows on television, possibly one of the best TV dramas we've ever seen because it takes these great themes of art and entertainment, loyalty and family and morality and it makes you deal with them in an adult way that it doesn't spell out the morale conclusions for you.

It forces you to grapple with it, and it forces you to draw your own conclusions and make your own judgments. Now, I think that's an important to remember here. This is a show made for adults, and I think to sue it by saying that if you show Italian-Americans or anybody as criminals, you're endorsing the criminal lifestyle or you're saying everybody who looks like that or has a last name like that is a criminal is to endorse a sort of childish view of entertainment and art. It's basically saying that all television should be made on a level for babies or idiots.

BATTISTA: On the other hand, are you empathetic at all?

PONIEWOZICK: I am empathetic to the idea that there are stereotypes against Italian-Americans as there are against Africa- Americans, Hispanic-Americans, a lot of ethnic groups in our country. In a way, I sort of wonder why a group like this doesn't sue, say, the makers of "Friends" for putting on character like Joey Tribbiani, who is much more sort of a less thought out stereotypical, you know, you need a dumb young guy on a show, so have be some Italian-American guy who wears muscle shirts and so one rather than one of the best dramas on television that has fully realized characters with multiple sides and a complex understand of the morality and shows people from all walks of life.

BATTISTA: Well, you know, I agree with Pat when he says, you know, where does this -- where does it all stop? Well, let me ask you, how would you feel about a show that portrayed -- are you Polish? is your background...

PONIEWOZICK: I'm Polish in part, yes.

BATTISTA: OK, so let's take that. What if there was a show about Polish family and it had all the, you know, dumb Polish jokes in it and this sort of thing? Would you find that offensive?

PONIEWOZICK: Well, let's take that. In the first episode of "The Sopranos" this year, we saw a Polish character on the show, "The Sopranos's" Polish maid, who when we saw her in the first episode, was stealing the family's silverware.

Do I take from that that they're saying that all Polish-Americans are dishonest and if you invite me over to your home, you'd better count the silverware when I leave? No, that would be ridiculous, and I think it's ridiculous to draw the same inference from a program that's about a family and guess what, if you do program about a family, they're all going to be of the same ethnicity as each other.

BATTISTA: Monroe in Houston, Texas brings up an interesting point in this e-mail. He said: "Italians should be so lucky. While "The Sopranos" are romanticized, other gangs, be it black, Mexican or Vietnamese, are characterized as thugs, scum, dregs and animals for engaging in the same vile, anti-social behavior."

So, what is Monroe saying here, that Italian-Americans should embrace this rather than be upset by it?

GRIPPO: Who are you speaking to?

BATTISTA: You know, any of you on that one. Ted, let me ask you that.

COOPER: I don't embrace that. I don't -- you know, I'm going to say it again, it's ridiculous. It's absolutely ridiculous. And the gentleman, I have the highest respect for him, I don't know why he wants to do this, I still don't get it. But you know, I wish him a Happy Easter and hope the rabbits turn around and go home.

(LAUGHTER)

GRIPPO: You can make fun of it, Mr. Cooper.

COOPER: I'm not making fun of it.

GRIPPO: Yes, you are.

COOPER: I'm trying to make light of it because I was brought up (UNINTELLIGIBLE) you dip the bread in the tomatoes and thank God who you are, and then go home and die.

(LAUGHTER)

GRIPPO: OK. You can take a comedic attitude toward this, but...

COOPER: It's not comedic. It's just that it's silly. It's silly, my friend.

GRIPPO: Well, it's not as silly...

COOPER: You're talking about the Illinois constitution.

GRIPPO: Well...

COOPER: I'm not interested in the Illinois constitution.

GRIPPO: Do you ever let anybody...

COOPER: I'm interested in the American constitution, my friend.

GRIPPO: Do you ever let anybody have a free speech (UNINTELLIGIBLE)?

COOPER: All of the sudden you guys come out of the -- you come out of the woodwork and you want to save the world. Don't save my world. I love what I am. I love my people.

GRIPPO: OK, well, we're not stopping you.

COOPER: I'd go to jail for my people.

GRIPPO: The point...

BATTISTA: Let me -- let me ask you this.

Do I have to go to break, Make, or do I have time for one more question? OK. There are also -- and James, I'll get your comment on this, because there are also charges flying around that this show is misogynistic and that it does not treat women in a very good light. Ted, first of all, have you thought about that angle of the show? Have you thought about including it?

GRIPPO: We have. Well, it is included.

(CROSSTALK)

Wait a minute. Let me respond to that.

Last Sunday, a week ago, the most brutal beating of a young 20- year-old pregnant girlfriend whereby one of these crazy Italians beat her so badly that it just turned my stomach. She was murdered right on the show with all kinds of blood. The women are treated terribly.

PONIEWOZICK: Exactly. It turned your stomach...

GRIPPO: And I understand that the women's movement...

PONIEWOZICK: ... and that's precisely the response you're supposed to have.

GRIPPO: Would you let me talk? I understand the women's movement is very upset about the way women are shown or portrayed in this series. Family values are destroyed. Religion is desecrated. This is a very, very vile show. It's not -- it's not for something that we should be standing up for.

BATTISTA: Hold on. I've got to take a quick break here, but we've obviously opened up another can of worms. We'll be back in just a minute.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BATTISTA: All right, James, James, these charges of misogyny on this show -- on the other hand, you can probably make the argument that some of the women characters on that show are some of the strongest and fiercest out of that cast, too.

PONIEWOZICK: Yes, and they've been recognized as that. I mean, Lorraine Bracco and Edie Falco have been nominated for it and received numerous awards for their unusually strong characterizations of women for a network drama. And I think this again gets back to the issue of how childishly are you going to look at drama on television.

Because you show misogyny, does that mean that the show itself is misogynistic? I don't think so.

SERRA: There's a very simple solution to the problem of "The Sopranos,"if there is a problem. If you don't like the show when you watch it, turn it off. It's very simple. It's over.

(APPLAUSE) BATTISTA: All right. That'll have to be the last word. We've got to go. Thank you all very much for joining us. Appreciate all of your insight on this, and we've got to go. We'll see you again tomorrow at 3:00 for more TALKBACK LIVE. Thanks much.

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