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CNN Talkback Live
ENCORE PRESENTATION/Can Only African-Americans Use the `N' Word?
Aired September 03, 2001 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BOBBIE BATTISTA, HOST: We call it the "N" word, and you know what it is, but would you ever say it?
Superstar Jennifer Lopez does in her remixed version of the song, "I'm real," and now outraged critics are calling her a racist. The "N" word isn't new to music, but is it only OK to use if you're black?
Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to TALKBACK LIVE.
Jennifer Lopez is taking a lot of heat for using the "N" word in a remix version of her song, "I'm real." The new version includes the following lines, and bear with me these are rap lyrics they are not supposed to be spoken, they are supposed to be sung. But she says, "People be screamin'. What's the deal with you," and so and so. "I tell them -- "N" word -- mind their biz but they don't hear me though."
Rap artists increasingly use the "N" word, but J.Lo is Latina, and DJs at some African-American radio stations say she has no right to use it. Does she need permission? Joining us today first here in Atlanta is Speech, a member of the rap group "Arrested Development" and Paul Mooney in New York, a comedian who used the "N" word in his act.
Paul, Speech, good to see you both, very much.
I am starting with you because you are both in the entertainment business and it would seem that the entertainment world has usurped that word to some degree, particularly in the last decade or so, although I know it at various points in history been part of the entertainment business.
Is it OK for her, Speech, because you are in this rap music culture, is it OK for Jennifer Lopez to use this term?
SPEECH, ARRESTED DEVELOPMENT: The truth is that the rules have gotten a little twisted. You have been hearing it -- I listen to hip- hop all the time, and you listen and you hear it in Hip-Hop lyrics and you hear that word so much and it is so easy for it to become sort of irrelevant.
But when I was asked to do this I thought about it some more and I really put some thought behind it and I thought about the fact that first of all I don't use it as a term of endearment ever, and I also thought about the fact that this word, it represents what it meant to people before us. When I look at this word I have to look at it as a historical thing because I think the reason why it is so controversial right now is because of the history of the word. It's not because of what the word means now.
And as I look at it I look at it as a historical thing and there was people who literally sacrificed, who died, literally died, so that this word would not determine who they are. And they died for us and they died for me, for me to be able to be on CNN, they died for that opportunity. And the truth is that I can't say that that's a good word to use.
BATTISTA: Do you think that it's fair that she is being charged as a racist because she used this term? I mean I think that generally speaking people know that she isn't. But the fact that she used the word, does it point on to that?
SPEECH: I don't know. I haven't heard the song, I just heard that little section. I wouldn't call her a racist because she used the word. because like I said I think our whole view if the word has gotten so twisted, I think we just need to go back to what the word meant, and just for appreciation and out of just respect for what our ancestors went through, we shouldn't use the word like that.
BATTISTA: Paul, what do you think? Are we making too much out of this, or...
PAUL MOONEY, COMEDIAN: I think it's much to-do nothing. I am very concerned about Babara Streisand using the "H" word -- "honkey." That's what I am concerned about. I am worried about Barbara.
No, I am not emotionally connected with word because it was a word created by white people negatively towards black people. And we sort of took that word and made it positive and instead of negative and we sort of took the teeth out of the shark so it's just a big stupid fish in the water can't attack and bite anybody.
People don't like their power taken from them and I am not connected with that word. And I use it because it's dramatic and it conjures up a lot of demons with black and white people and white people created the word and I remember when I first heard the word, because thought I was an American and a human being, and I heard the word and I was going -- they were saying "nigger" and I was going, where, where? I thought it was some small animal. I said I hope it doesn't bite me. And so that is my attitude toward it.
BATTISTA: Obviously context has to be considered here but do you think that anyone should be able to use that word, whether you are Latino or white, or just African-Americans?
MOONEY: Well the Latino thing, Puerto Rican and Cubans please, they are just niggas that can swim. So it doesn't bother me. That doesn't bother me and everybody gets their nigga wake up call, everybody does in America. And it's like -- I mean, I use the word in my act and I say it and -- because I wrote for Richard Pryor for years and Richard stopped saying it. That is a whole other story. We will talk about that if you want to.
But I say the word -- every morning I get up, I say it 100 times. I say, nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger. It makes my teeth white.
(LAUGHTER)
BATTISTA: But you are using it in a humorous manner. Does that put it in a separate context all its own?
MOONEY: Yes, it diffuses it. But America is so caught up in it because of the background and slavery and the white and the black. You know, the "N" word and you know, from the O.J. trial -- everything has this whole crazy thing about it.
And everybody has their opinion about it. But for me, for freedom of expression, I say it, young white kids say it now in their homes. I mean people use the word, black people use it differently.
BATTISTA: I want to come back to that point that you raised in just a few minutes, young kids in particular. But let me go to some folks in the audience here, because I am curious as to whether they are uncomfortable with this situation. Is it Jaleek (ph)?
JALEEK: First of all, hello. First, I would like to mention, now that today's times are more modern and there are three different terminologies for that word. There can be a black person relating it to another black young person in terms of bond. There can also be a white person or any other race using it to a black person in a derogatory manner. And then there is a black person who uses it against another black person because of his own hatred and disgust.
BATTISTA: Mimi (ph), what are your thoughts on this?
MIMI: I don't think the word should ever be used because when I grew up in Georgia and I live in Hawaii now, I was called nigger, nigger. And it me a long time to get my self-esteem and I don't feel that it should be used by blacks, whites or anyone else. It is a slave thing. Let's get over it.
SPEECH: I agree with that.
BATTISTA: So, Paul, I guess that the fact of the matter is -- let me go to a white person in the audience. It's important to the get everybody in on this here. Is it Geti (ph)?
GITI: I think that if the word even hurts one person, it's too many and it shouldn't be used at all. Whatever word it is, that's what I think. That if it's negative and if it is negative and hurts one person then that's enough and you shouldn't use it at all.
BATTISTA: Paul, would you agree with that philosophy, outside of the scope of humor. I know that humor is your whole life for the most part but you also know this word can be used not in a humorous way.
MOONEY: It can be, but listen, they just found in Africa, in Ethiopia, some old black bones you know, 5.5 million years old or whatever and the person was Lucy, that looked kind of looked like Whoopi Goldberg, and the first black person. It's like, if a white person calls me a nigger in derogatory, and they really mean it, I just look at them and say, your momma. Because everybody comes from blacks, you are laughing.
BATTISTA: I am laughing because Speech is sitting here looking a bit speechless right now.
MOONEY: It doesn't matter. That's his name, that's his name. Some people you know, people get to -- it's too like slavery, this, that. everyone gets too involved in stuff, well this happened to me and that happened to me. We all know that, but you are know who you are. You know who you are. If my mother is a nun and someone comes up to me and they go your mother is a prostitute. It is not going to bother me, because I know my mother is a nun, she's not a prostitute.
But if I think my mother is out there hooking, I am going to have a problem.
BATTISTA: Let me take a phone call from Donald (ph) in Pennsylvania -- Donald, go ahead.
DONALD: How are you doing?
BATTISTA: Good, how are you?
DONALD: Yes, the whole "N" word. We have got to keep things in perspective here a little bit. That is a negative word. It's used as a description for bad people, bad manners, everything that I was raised to believe in that's bad. I was called that several times, and I happen to be white and I take offense to that. And I can where black people come into that and it was like a description word towards black people and it was never meant to be like that -- never.
My mom raised me better than that and my grand mom taught me to go straight on a straight and forward narrow road. And to be to use that word whether it be as your boy or a derogatory statement, we have to think here, that's bad.
BATTISTA: You know, Donald raises a point, I think that to anyone who was raised with that sensibility and were raised to choke on that word as being like one of the ultimate awful words that you could ever use, it's really not comfortable to hear that word used so much over and over.
But Speech, what do you think. David in Minneapolis e-mails us that to take the power out of the "N' word by desensitizing it and the only way to do that is to use it over and over. Do you agree?
SPEECH: No, I don't agree. And I think that the point is that we are trying to communicate as people here and I think that the bottom line is that you know, everyone says that we want to get forward. We want to move forward and the way to move forward is to communicate. And the fact is if I am speaking a language that you don't understand we are not communicating. Most people understand it as a negative thing. I understand it as a negative thing as well. Most people among us are saying that that word meant degradation. That's what that word meant. Just in the spirit of respect and the spirit of communication, that's what I am talking about.
And I don't see the Jewish people naming their children Hitler just to desensitize the word. It doesn't work like that. The word is the word and we use it to memorize and to remember the things that have happened in the past so that we don't repeat it.
BATTISTA: Go ahead, Paul.
MOONEY: That's what they call Jewish people in Europe. They said that. They made a reference to them as being that. That's what they called them. That's in your books.
BATTISTA: Let me go to Jim in the audience.
Go ahead, (ph) Jim.
JIM: Well, I grew up in a time in the '30s and '40s when things were segregated. And when the white person called the "N" word, it was degrading. And then I happened to go into the service when it was integrated in the 1950 and when they integrated the armed forces it was really terrible to be called the "N" word when there was only two of us representing the whole unit. There was only two of us in the Air Force together.
They had this other Afro-American with me calling me the "N" word so they could laugh. It was funny to them and to this day I hate it and I think that the word should be taken out of the dictionary.
BATTISTA: All right. I have to take a quick break here. When we come back, who exactly can use the "N" word? That's your question for today. Take the TALKBACK LIVE online viewer vote at CNN.com/TALKBACK. AOL keyword: CNN. While there, check out my note which is actually Chris's note today and send us an e-mail. In a moment, does it matter who uses that word? We'll be back.
Jennifer Lopez was the first Latina actress to break the seven figure barrier on a film when she was paid $1 million to star in "Selena."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BATTISTA: Nina in Florida says, "I would not want a person of another race using that word because it's demeaning. Black people are demeaning themselves by using it. If no one is going to call out the rappers for using it though, then why call out J.Lo on this issue. She's just following their lead" -- or trying to sell records. However she did not write that song by the way. It was written by a black rap artist. She has made one or two statements on this issue.
This what she had to say on BET's 106 and Park the other night, she says, "You know this song and the way that the word was used in this song, which was actually written by Jah Rule, you know it was never meant to be hurtful in any way. I would never do anything like that. That is not me and I think everybody knows that." Joining us now is Sam Saleem, founder of Peacemaker One Foundation. which is an organization in Harlem that strives to make people more humane. Sam, thanks very much for joining us.
SAM SALEEM, PEACEMAKER ONE FOUNDATION: Thank you.
BATTISTA: You wrote an editorial on this subject in "Newsday" that I thought was pretty provocative and one of the statements that stood out to me and I am going to quote it here, you said, "No other word expresses the demonization and dehumanization of a people better than the "N" word." Why does it seem that the idea of that has been replaced by the idea that it's OK to use that word now?
SALEEM: I don't really understand that. First of all, let me say in the name of the creator and the spirit of our indomitable ancestors and in honor of my mother's love, thank you for allowing me this opportunity to appear on this program.
BATTISTA: Our pleasure.
SALEEM: The "N" word is an offensive further corruption of the word Negro which has its origins in the Latin word Niger, meaning black. It appears to be the Portuguese or the Spanish who coined the word Negro and used it first as an adjective.
If you want to really fool the people, you take some truth and you mix it in with falsehood. Racist oppressors took an adjective meaning black and turned it into a noun meaning subhuman and designated people of African ancestors less than human in order to justify enslaving millions of our ancestors. The "N" word has a historically racist meaning that linked black and all of its negative connotations to the predestined status of an enslaved people who suffered centuries of inhuman treatment just because of the color of their skin.
BATTISTA: Do you think that people have -- it's hard to believe -- but, forgotten that? And have you know, set out to reclaim this word in some way, and turn it around?
SALEEM: Well, if someone tries to do that, the only thing that I can do is remember what Chuck D. said. And Chuck D. said that every word can't be turned around, especially one that is degraded and one that is in blood and hatred for over 400 years. So we can't turn around every word. We just have to understand that.
BATTISTA: And Paul, it seems to me that you just don't want to go there with that word.
MOONEY: It's not even about don't want to go there, it's like I know the whole slavery trip and the whole ancestor thing. I understand that but our blood is mixed now, thank you, slavery. And I don't want to bring up Jefferson, but it's like, everybody's walking around. No one is a pure nothing, you know. It's very few people left that are -- that are one thing.
So it's like we're caught up in a cross-culture, multi culture. Things are changing, I talk beige babies. I am very religious and God gets everybody. Because everybody that I talk about, I mean, I have seven kids. I've got a daughter with a Mexican so I have blackcicans, and I have a son with a Chinese baby and I've got a daughter with a half-white baby so you know, everybody they talk about, I am their grandfather.
All's well that ends well. And it's -- if you can't -- if you don't have a sense of humor and can't take a joke, humor is powerful. It's more powerful than the word nigger, because it can heal people. It can save people from cancer and heart attacks, and so we all just want to be happy and have fun and I am not (UNINTELLIGIBLE) . I understand this.
I respect this man and he's brilliant and I respect everybody and I respect their opinion. I want to people to do the same for me. And it's just my opinion. I mean, I am an American and if I keep talking like this I'll be president. But it's just, for me it just doesn't bother me. And I just not emotionally chained to it. It doesn't mean anything. I know who I am.
BATTISTA: Let me go back to the audience. Kimberly (ph) -- your thoughts.
KIMBERLY: Hi. To me, when the "N" word is used, it's only offensive to me when it's used by a Caucasian person, because just this last year, I started college in the fall, and I was called the "N" word. And I told the gentleman who used it that I thought we would have been far past that, and that I wasn't the "N" word because I am not an ignorant person. I am educated, and I am pursuing higher education.
BATTISTA: Let me stop you there. Were you offended because a white person used it? Or were you offended because of the person's tone of voice?
KIMBERLY: First of all, I am not a nigger. And there is a difference between a "nigga" and a nigger.
BATTISTA: But did you hear my question? Which one was it? Was it just because it came from a white person or was it because the tone of voice and their usage of it?
KIMBERLY: It was the tone of voice and because he was a white man.
BATTISTA: What if it was a white person who used it endearingly? Someone that you knew.
KIMBERLY: No white person should be allowed to use it. That's just me.
BATTISTA: So Speech, what do you -- how do you control that? I mean, do you make a list of who can use the word and who can't?
SPEECH: You can't control it, obviously. And like Paul said, it is totally an opinion. And ultimately, it is going to break it down to that, and it is always an opinion. But, once again, it's like, the reason why she -- she felt a little offended by what the cat said was because he was white, and that's because of history.
And so, you still can't erase history, you just can't. And I understand what Paul said, so far as, all's well that ends well. And I wish that was true, but it's just not. But it's still cool that that's his opinion, and that's fine. The thing is, that your past -- it does relate to who you will be now. And Paul in his comedy -- I have heard a lot of his comedy, and it's incredible, he's a very talented guy.
But even a lot of that is based on that. He knows the tensions there because of the history. It means something. And we can't just ignore it.
BATTISTA: I have to take another break here. We'll be back in just a moment. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BATTISTA: Let me take -- I am getting so much response here. E- mails and the audience and everyone. Let me take David on the phone quickly in the Bronx.
David (ph), go ahead.
CALLER: Hi, I just want to say that, first of all, I think that it's unfair for Jennifer Lopez to be really chastised for using the word -- people like Big Punn (ph) and Fajil (ph) have been saying it for years now. And no-one really complained then, so why start now? That's first.
Second of all, personally, I say the word about maybe 100 times a day, but so does everyone around me. I don't empower that word to mean something derogatory towards anyone.
BATTISTA: But if a white person used it on you, it would suddenly have a lot of power, wouldn't it?
CALLER: Well, I am not black. That's another issue right there, but it all depends on the context of someone saying it. If someone said it to me, obviously derogatory, I will take offense to that. But if they're not, I don't see what the point is in being all offended.
BATTISTA: Sam, it seems like we are giving everyone but whites tacit permission to use this word now, that young people in particular seem to think that it's OK if it's used in a positive way?
SALEEM: I don't understand how the word can be used in a positive way. It doesn't make sense to me. If a white person uses it -- you know, it's almost as if, by our using the word, we're giving Caucasians a license to use it, and that really doesn't make sense to me. I don't get it.
BATTISTA: Can't have it both ways here. Go to the audience quickly. Up over the railing. Jordan (ph), go ahead.
JORDAN: My name is Jordan Goodie (ph). Earlier in the year, I would go to school and nobody would say this word, but then a few people would bring it in from things they heard and it would just spread around school like a virus, you know -- you, most people use it as a friendly term, but other times they use it negative.
You don't -- you don't know whether people are using this word as negative or positive. You can't tell whether people are being discriminating towards you or use of a term of bondage. I don't think that it should be used at all. I think that it's wrong and I am sure we could come up with another word.
BATTISTA: You raise a good point about children's speech, you know, if you used this word in your home and in an endearing fashion with your children, which has happened in a number of African-American homes, and then you also tell your child that, you know, it has a horrible and negative connotation when used by others, and with the certain tone of voice or meaning. How are they supposed to decipher?
(AUDIO GAP)
BATTISTA: Hold on, let me give you my mike. Yours is not working. We'll give you Chris' here quickly.
SPEECH: I totally agree with that, and I am telling you, just the whole topic lately has been coming up. I was asked by another magazine to talk about this and I've said it in my songs, and I have made a decision since I started to really think about it, not to ever use it again. And that was just a decision that I had to make when I saw the hypocrisy in how I was using it, and how I've heard it used, and just all of the confusion behind it.
I was like, you know what? Just flat out, just out of respect, I will not use this word anymore, because I see that it hurts people.
(APPLAUSE)
BATTISTA: You know what, Paul, let me ask you something. Eminem, the white rapper has chosen not to use this word in any of his lyrics. Do you think that had he used it, though, that he would have gotten -- since he is so immersed in the hip-hop culture, would he have gotten a pass, do you think, or not?
MOONEY: Would he get a pass to use it?
BATTISTA: Yes.
MOONEY: I doubt it, because he did some other stuff and he got in trouble with it. When you are in the limelight -- and Eminem is a different story. I mean, his mother is suing him because she knew she had a white baby. But, yeah, I think that he probably; I think he would have. BATTISTA: Let me bring in one more guest into the conversation. Todd Boyd is an internationally recognized expert on film and pop culture. He is a professor of critical studies in the University of Southern California School of Cinema Television.
And by the way on the phone with us is Kevin Miller, a radio talk show host at WERC in Birmingham, Alabama. The best way to classify you is the angry white guy.
Todd, let me ask you first, when did this term become a popular, again, maybe we should say and/or maybe it has always been, in popular culture?
TODD BOYD, USC SCHOOL OF CINEMA-TELEVISION: Well, it has mostly received attention because of the hip-hop culture, which of course, dates back to the mid/late '70s and forward. And as hip-hop has become more prevalent throughout American society, the word itself has, you know, started to get a great deal of attention.
Again, I should point out, though, as someone said earlier, there is a difference between N-I-G-G-E-R and N-I-G-G-A. We can't assume that words are locked into a particular time, and that they don't grow. Words evolve. They change meaning. Language is very fluid. And so, something that might have meant something very derogatory at one point can very easily have a different connotation at a different time, and I think, that is one of the things going on here.
I often like to reference Tupac's use of "nigga," which he said stood for Never Ignorant, Getting Goals Accomplished. So there's a way in which you can use this term of endearment; there's a way in which it can be derogatory. It all depends on the context. But language is not locked in time, and it's not fixed. It must evolve and it must grow. And I think that that's what happened in this case.
BATTISTA: Kevin, you are bothered mainly by the fact that there is double standard at work here, that African-Americans can use this term, but nobody else can?
KEVIN MILLER, WERC RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: I think that just having been glued to the television today, Bobbie, it's ironic, I was listening to Speech earlier and he was talking about the civil rights struggle and the struggle with slavery. And I have to tell you, today on WERC, we had the Reverend Fred Shuttlesworth, along with Martin Luther King Jr., an icon in the civil rights movement.
And talking about him, how he faced the dogs and the hoses, and going to the Civil Rights Museum, and you see the dignity in that struggle. And then, on the other hand you have people saying, as people in the audience today said, well, if a white man says something, it's wrong, but if a black man says it, it's OK. What we are doing here is just dividing it.
I agree with the gentleman from New York. No one should say this word. All this does is divide and conquer, and we have enough of that going on. I mean, we have a problem with education, we have a problem with drugs, we have a problem with crime. Instead of worrying about Jennifer Lopez, we should be focusing on kids K through 12.
BATTISTA: All right, I have got to take a quick break here. We got a lot to do when we come back, so stay with us. Don't go away.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BATTISTA: All right, let me get in some of these e-mails. Mark in Tennessee says: "I believe that anyone can say it. I know it's a word connected to the past, but it's time to let it go. I'm 16, and I use as an alternative to hi. It's no longer a bad word, and the young people of America use it all the time. Let go of the past and start living in the present. Stop revisiting the past. The word isn't linked to the past, your memory is."
Rod in Saskatchewan says: "The reason why kids are using the "N" word now is because almost all rap music uses it, and rap is being marketed to young, white, suburban males. If they hear it used all the time, what would you expect? You cannot make money off of them using this word and not expect them to identify with it. You can't have it both ways."
Todd, does he have a point?
BOYD: Well, I think, you know, there is a fallacy that underlies this. You know, if you are black in America, you have become accustomed to a double standard, very much being, you know, part of the way the world works. That's just reality.
So, here we have an instance where, you know, someone is saying maybe white people shouldn't use this word, and now everybody is, you know, all upset about it, they're all up in arms. Let's face it, I mean, double standards are a part of racism in America and have been for quite some time, and I really find it somewhat dishonest for people to say, oh well, white people can't use it, so now it's wrong.
That's ridiculous. I mean, the point of the matter is, what self-respecting white person wants to call anybody a nigger anyway? You know, are there white people, you know, lined up, ready to say that?
BATTISTA: But let me turn that around, why do black people want to reclaim this word and use it that way? Why would they?
BOYD: Why shouldn't they? Why shouldn't they be able to take that word and use it to mean what they want? Why should they have to be locked into this historical meaning of the word and not translate it?
BATTISTA: I just can't see why they'd want to. I don't know why they...
BOYD: Why wouldn't they?
MOONEY: Excuse me. Hello? (CROSSTALK)
BATTISTA: Go ahead, Paul.
MOONEY: I want to let him talk after I finish this. This is -- I'm agreeing with this man. Look, if you are black and you have experienced the word and you have been through it and you've called it -- negative, positive, whatever -- you feel you have a right to express it, because you have been called it enough. Do you understand? The word has become a part of you and your environment. So, you express it the way you want to express it, because you have been there.
And I know I keep bringing up hookers, but hookers call each other whores. You call them a whore, they want to fight you. OK? Hello?
BATTISTA: Yes, so they should...
MOONEY: It's like they are taking this word because they know that we are calling it, "you whore," to hurt their feelings. They take the word so that they can take the power from you. And if you go by right now on the block and call them that, they will want to fight you, but they call each other that.
BOYD: I mean, it is, it's very true that what has happened in hip-hop is I think people have taken the word and lessened some of the power that it has. I mean, when you sweep something under the rug, when you ignore it, when you act like it doesn't exist -- you know, let's face it, the real issue is this: racism is the problem, and if people stop saying the word nigger today, racism wouldn't disappear not even a small amount. We need to stop using band-aids on bullet wounds and deal with the real issue.
BATTISTA: Let me get Sam's opinion here on what you guys are saying about using it takes the power out of it.
SALEEM: Well, thank you very much. Who knows? Let's really think about this: who knows the confusion that comes to the developing mind of a young child who is told by someone that he or she loves that we called you the "N" word because we love you. But when somebody else calls you this word, it's because they hate you. Now, we have to take responsibility for what we do to ourselves...
BOYD: You have to understand that words have multiple connotations.
SALEEM: May I finish, please? May I finish?
When our children are using this word, they are basically using it in public like they hear us use it in private. And I think by their overwhelming use of the word in public, it's really helping us to see a major problem that we have.
When we look in the mirror, we really don't see. We really don't like what we see a lot of times. BOYD: The point, the point is this: I can say to someone "I love you," and then stab them in the back. Now, I use a very positive word, but my actions, of course, were very negative. It's not the word, it's what is attached to the word that is the problem. Let's deal with racism in America and let's not get all up in arms about somebody using the word nigger, it's not that deep. Let's deal with the real issue!
BATTISTA: But you know what, but you can't necessarily divorce, you know, what the word is. If somebody overhears me call Chris that word in an endearing way, they may not know that I mean it in an endearing way, they think it means something else.
BOYD: But the point is this, they are instances...
(CROSSTALK)
BOYD: ... our society where whiteness is represented in a very different way than blackness. So, if a the white person uses this word, it conjures up a very different history, a very different set of images that are tied to racism, that are tied to slavery. We cannot divorce that. So, we can't act like, you know, it's the same across the board.
I have always said it's like the discussion in a family. In any family, there are words that are particular to that family, a discourse, a way of speaking. If someone from the outside were to come into that family, use that language, use those words, they would be out of pocket, they would be out of order.
Now we have an issue where hip-hop, black people, brown people, are using this word, they are using it to have multiple meanings, and all of a sudden the real issue is this: white people are upset, because someone is saying, maybe for the first time, this is something that you cannot do, and they are freaking out. They are losing their minds, because this is not the case very often in American society.
BATTISTA: Let me get Kevin in on this. Go ahead, Kevin.
MILLER: I just love talking about the gentleman from California talking about solving racial problems and how we all need to come together, and he says, but this certain word, white people can't say it.
BOYD: That's right.
MILLER: You see, you are a hypocrite, because you are talking about coming together...
BOYD: I'm not a hypocrite!
MILLER: Let me finish. You are talking about coming together, and then you excluded a large segment of the population.
BOYD: That large segment of the population of is not excluded by anything... (CROSSTALK)
MILLER: You talk about how people are perceived -- let's look at MTV, let's look at any of the new genre of hip-hop. You look at a white person, he is the butt of jokes. You do that same to someone else...
(CROSSTALK)
BOYD: But in no way does that alter the balance of power in America.
(CROSSTALK)
BOYD: In no way does a white person looking like a dope in hip- hop alter the balance of power in America..
CALLER: I guess you're not going to do that. You see, that's the problem. You want to have it your way, but when we just want to he equal -- which was goal of the equal rights movement...
BOYD: How you can be equal when you control everything?
(CROSSTALK)
CALLER: ... and I invite you to come down to...
BOYD: How can you be equal when you control everything?
CALLER: ... and I will give you a lesson in civil rights.
BOYD: Yeah, right.
CALLER: What? That's a legitimate offer. I am extended my ivory hand to you, sir. Why don't you come down and we work together? But you don't want to...
BOYD: That's very white of you, sir.
CALLER: ... because your rhetoric would be disarmed then.
BOYD: My rhetoric would not be disarmed...
CALLER: Why are you angry?
BOYD: I'm not angry at all; I'm laughing, sir.
BATTISTA: Let me jump in here...
BOYD: You assume that I'm angry, and that's a racist assumption on your part.
CALLER: Why don't you let Bobbie talk? This isn't "The Guy From California Show."
BOYD: You're not hogging the show. What's your problem? BATTISTA: Let me take a quick break here, and then I'll get to Robin (ph) on the phone when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BATTISTA: Let me go over to Chris (ph) real quickly here, and then I'll let these guys in.
CHRIS: Let's get back to the real issue. The issue was J.Lo using the word in a song. First of all, she didn't write the song -- that's No. 1. No. 2, she's merely repeating the words to a song that was written before she even sang it.
Now, I've used the word in the past, I'll admit it. And if everybody is truthful with themselves in this audience, you also admit that you've used the word too. But I don't use it now, and I choose not to use it anymore because it is offensive. But the reality is: White people in this country use the word, they just use it behind closed doors, and then they get upset when they hear it in public. Please!
BATTISTA: Well, I don't know that you can paint that broad brush, but I -- there are white people who use that word behind closed doors, there's no doubt about that.
MOONEY: All right, excuse me, I want to say this to Mr. White Man that was -- that's the first time I've ever seen a militant white man. I found him very interesting. First of all...
CALLER: Why don't we say the "N" word a few more times. That's some funny shtick you have there, pal.
MOONEY: Hey listen, you know what: You shut up white boy.
Anyway, listen. First of you all, you have the complexion for the protection...
CALLER: This is a racist statement.
MOONEY: You shut up. There's no such thing as reverse racism. I can't tell you not to eat a Denny's; I can't tell you what neighborhood to live in; I can't make you a second-class citizen, all right! You are the freest creature on this earth, you are a white male! What does America love more than one white male? Two, OK. You're free; you're totally free.
You're totally free. You tell you tell the minority, you tell black folks...
CALLER: This is the problem, you're dividing.
MOONEY: Nobody divides anything, OK. Nobody's...
CALLER: Why are you raising your voice?
MOONEY: I'm raising my voice because I don't like you. (CROSSTALK)
CALLER: What have I said that has offended you?
MOONEY: What?
CALLER: What have I said that has offended you?
MOONEY: It's just you. I'm not mad at you; I'm not mad at you, I'm mad at your parents for having you. But I just want to...
CALLER: But wait a minute, why did you insult my parents?
MOONEY: I want to make you mad. I'm going to go after your parents because I want to make you mad.
(CROSSTALK)
MOONEY: OK, don't worry about it. Don't worry about it.
CALLER: The only thing I have to say about reverse discrimination...
MOONEY: There's no such thing...
BATTISTA: I've got to break this up.
(CROSSTALK)
BATTISTA: Hold on, hold on.
Let me take Robin on the phone in Georgia quickly.
Robin, go ahead.
CALLER: Hi. I would like to say that if -- people need to be real with themselves about this. I'm a black female, and in our circle, black people use word as a term of endearment, yes. I don't use this word, but I can say that when a white person using this word, it is negative due to the history, because they made the word. I have white friends, my husband is white, and I can tell you now, my husband had better not use that word. I had to explain it to him, because he does not understand, because he's from Europe. And I'll be doggone if I ever hear that word come out of mouth. He has to understand.
People need to be real about it. Yes, me and my girlfriends can get together and I will hear them say, "Well, that "N" did this and blah, blah, blah"; or they can say, "Oh yeah, that's my `N.'" But then if their white girlfriend comes up and goes, "Oh hey girl, what's up my `N?'" Oh no, no, no, no; it doesn't work that way, and that is the truth.
BATTISTA: All right Robin, thanks very much.
Tom (ph), go ahead. TOM: Yes; the "N" word is a word that should never be used. But you can also -- you can't say that one group owns it. No one owns any type of language. I mean, I could learn French or Japanese if I wanted to, and I could speak their language. But could a Japanese person come to me and say, you know, you can't speak my language because you're not Japanese? So how is it to say that anyone owns any word?
BATTISTA: Todd, can you own a word?
BOYD: Well, I think that the word is tied to a particular history, and that history indicates a certain ownership. In the past the word was derogatory because it supported the slave economy and supported racism in America. A different group of people have come along now, and they've given the word a different meaning.
We can't assume that a word, because it meant something at one point can't change. We don't live in that sort of fixed economy. Words are fluid; connotations change. The word "gay" at one point meant something, now it means something completely different.
We can't deny people the opportunity to take language and use it in whatever way they want to. In my mind, that's the beauty of language. And that's why I have to say I love the word "nigger." It is my favorite word in the English language because no other word conjures up more controversy. And the more we say it,the more we get away from this controversy and start to deal with the real issue, which is racism, which we're not dealing with.
We don't live in an equal society. We're not on an equal playing field, so we shouldn't even assert that as a possibility. When we do, then maybe we can say if a white person uses it, it's OK, it's not OK; when a black persons uses it, it's OK, it's not OK. The point is: It's not equal, it's very unequal. And here's a situation where people are sort of on the other side of it, and now they're upset.
SPEECH: That's -- I think that's really nice, and it's really intellectual. But I think the reality is, is that we have people once again -- because the whole reason why this brings up so much tension is there's people involved. And there's people that have lived a past that you and your college place, wherever you're at, you can't relate to it...
BOYD: Why are you trying to come at me with that? You don't know what I can relate to. You don't know anything about me.
(CROSSTALK)
SPEECH: Listen, I know you can't, because if you could, then you would respect the fact -- the fact -- that people died because of it.
BOYD: Of course I respect the fact that people died.
SPEECH: It's just a matter of respect, brother. I'm not against you; I'm simply just speaking to you...
BOYD: But you don't know anything about me to make that sort of personal judgment...
SPEECH: You're right, I don't. But I will say, brother...
BOYD: I guess that's why you haven't sold a record since 1992.
(CROSSTALK)
SPEECH: All I'm saying to you brother, is you revert to things like that because of ignorance, and then you use that N-I-G-G-A analogy...
(CROSSTALK)
SPEECH: You revert to things like that. Instead of getting off the subject, let's stick to the subject. Because you're up there in your armed chair in the intellectual thing, and there's people that have suffered because of the word. And there was a time in popular culture -- if you're going to follow popular culture and allow that to dictate where we go -- there was a time in popular culture where you, brother, would have been killed and no one would have done anything about it, and your dead corpse would have been on the street. There was a time in culture when that was allowed, and it's not allowed now because people struggled; people died because of that.
And so you can't ignore the past, brother, because you are a result of the past.
BOYD: Sell some records Speech.
SPEECH: You're corny.
BOYD: Sell records.
SPEECH: You're corny.
BOYD: You're corny. Arrested Development was corny.
BATTISTA: Somehow it seems like -- OK, it's getting personal now.
BOYD: He took it that way...
BATTISTA: What I was saying is that it seems for, you know, some of you like Paul and Todd, this word just doesn't carry, you know, the baggage and the intensity that it does for others.
BOYD: It certainly doesn't carry that baggage for me. I mean, for me...
BATTISTA: Well, that was Speech's point.
BOYD: It doesn't carry that baggage for me at all.
The point is, we cannot assume that words are stuck in time and history and that they don't change. They do change. I understand people died for this. People still die for this. People -- racism still exists, of course I understand that.
The point is, racism does not diminish one bit by the fact that people don't say nigger. We need to deal with racism and not keep focusing on words, because words are only the representation of something much bigger, much larger in this case, much more distractive.
The other thing is, we can't assume that words can't have different meanings and different connotations when used by different people. And I think when people say you can't this house; it can only mean one thing, they are denying the language the opportunity to grow and have different meanings, in saying, it's this one thing and it can never be anything else.
BATTISTA: But you have to admit, words have changed this country. Words have.
BOYD: Sure, words have. Which is what I'm saying, which is exactly...
BATTISTA: But it sounds like you are minimizing the power of words.
BOYD: I am not minimizing anything. I am saying, if no one uses the word "nigger," racism does not disappear. My...
BATTISTA: Well, turn that around. If a lot of people use it, does it make it worse?
BOYD: If a lot of people uses it -- use the word, in my mind, it potentially devalues the word of all of this controversy, mystery and secrecy, because it's out there in the public. When it's not being used at all, we can't even discuss it. We can't even talk about it. Let's talk about it. Let's have discussions about it. Let's not get upset; I'm not upset. I'm not upset. This is a discussion we should have and it should be open and it should be free and not confined.
BATTISTA: I have to go a break. Katie (ph), a word from you. Quickly.
KATIE: I have taught the last three years in a predominately black high school, and I'm wondering -- just wondering whether it's right or wrong, can we bring it back? Because the kids use it like it's nothing.
BATTISTA: We'll talk to that when we come back. Just a second.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BATTISTA: Let's quickly check our on-line viewer vote here. The question was: Who can say the "N" word? We can't get it up there, you guys from the control room, so maybe you can help us out.
E-mail from Sherry from North Carolina says: "It is more upsetting to hear another race use the word. It is a derogative word that no one should use, but if African-Americans want to express themselves by calling other African-Americans that then it is more acceptable."
Dawn from Georgia says: "I think the `N' word should never be used. I grew up on a plantation when I was younger in southwest Georgia. Every time I hear that word, I think we're stuck in 1960. It's a slap in the face to MLK and Rosa Parks and other civil rights leaders."
Kevin, I think that's the point you were trying to make earlier.
MILLER: I think it's sad we have people from California and the other gentlemen with the nice hat talking about coming together, and all they do is insult me because I happen to be white. I talk about hypocrisy; that's the problem when you have these exclusionary words that some people can say and some people can't. And that's the point.
BOYD: The problem is we have a society that is exclusionary that is rooted in the appropriation of this land from Native Americans, based on the slave labor of African-Americans; that's the problem. That's the inequality. Let's deal with that. Let's deal with the repercussions of that; let's deal with the real issue. Let's deal with police brutality, racial profiling, let's deal with issues like this.
We are talking about words and semantics, which I'm not saying they're meaningless. I'm saying, the real issue is behind the word. The imaginary behind the word, not the word itself. As long as we are sitting up talking about what you should or shouldn't say, sweeping it under the rug, ignoring it, censoring it, we are not getting any place. When we have discussions about things, that's when we potentially move forward. That's what I'm advocating.
BATTISTA: To the audience. Sheila.
SHEILA: Hi. I'm a second grade teacher, and I think we can start by erasing the word in the classrooms. She said that she's used it (UNINTELLIGIBLE), but for me as a teacher, if I hear my kids use that, I will correct them in a minute, and tell them, no, we don't use those words. Those are words that we shouldn't use. So we can start with the younger kids in the classrooms, in our homes, babysitting, that's how we can alleviate that negative word.
BATTISTA: Two very distant schools of thought on this, but I would like to thank all of our guests for joining us today. Paul Mooney, Speech, Sam Saleem, thank you for joining us, Todd Boyd and Kevin Miller, thank you; we appreciate it.
And to all of you at home, we will see you again tomorrow for more TALKBACK LIVE.
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