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CNN Talkback Live

More Suicide Attacks Strike Israel; What Drove Forest Service Employee to Allegedly Set Colorado Fire?

Aired June 19, 2002 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ARTHEL NEVILLE, HOST: Hello everybody, welcome to TALKBACK LIVE. I am Arthel Neville.

Two attacks in two days, yesterday a suicide bomber blew up a busload of people in Jerusalem, killing at least 19 people and wounding more than 50 others. Then again, just hours ago, another suicide bomber attacked people at a neighborhood bus stop.

Joining us from Jerusalem with the latest is CNN's chief international correspondent Christiane Amanpour.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Arthel, the Israelis apparently already have started to retaliate for today's suicide bombing attack. Sources in Gaza tell us that Apache helicopters have been firing missiles at targets in Gaza City and a refugee camp there. We still don't know the extent of any damage or casualties, and we don't know the specific target. Palestinian Red Crescent saying that their ambulances and staff have not yet been able to get to the site of those Israeli missile strikes.

Now this, as we've said, in retaliation for the second suicide bombing in two days here in Jerusalem. In northeast Jerusalem, about four hours ago, there was a suicide attack that killed seven Israelis, as well as the suicide bomber, 37 other people were killed.

The police tell us that what happened was that a suspicious looking individual approached the bus stop in that area that's known as French Hill, a Jewish neighborhood. And when the police approached him, he detonated the explosives, and that's caused those fatalities and the injuries. We're told by hospital sources that amongst the injuries, there are children, including a six-year-old child and two 18-month-old children.

We're told one of those children is a girl who is seriously wounded and we're told another is a boy who is not as seriously wounded, but this boy was brought in by people other than his parents, and the hospital don't know at the moment where his parents are and whether they may have been victims of the suicide bombing.

In response now to this Israeli -- in response, rather, to these suicide bombing, the Israelis have called and declared a major policy shift, saying that they are now going into areas controlled by the Palestinian Authority in order to take and seize territory, put it under their control until the suicide bombings stop. And we were told by an Israeli spokesman this evening that we are likely to see more pieces of Palestinian-controlled territories seized by the Israeli army -- Arthel.

NEVILLE: Christiane, has anyone heard anything from Yasser Arafat at this point?

AMANPOUR: One of Yasser Arafat's top officials, and the senior negotiator, Saeb Erakat, who also often acts as his spokesman, immediately called and talked to CNN, or rather we called him, and has put out a statement condemning the terrorist attack inside Israel today, condemning the attack on Israeli civilians, and saying that Yasser Arafat himself also condemns that.

They also are saying that they regret that the White House has postponed any political speech that President Bush was going to make and they're saying that right now, of course, the extremists on their side are in control of the agenda, the extremists in the Palestinian side. Although they've been asked and been told to rein in the terrorists, Palestinians still maintain that they can't do that while their security services have been disrupted. Their prisons and other holding cells have been disrupted by the Israelis.

But, of course, the Israelis calling on them to get their house in order and to rein in these militants and these terrorists. And today's suicide bombing attack was claimed by the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, which is aligned with Yasser Arafat's Hamas (sic) movement. It is the militant wing of that Hamas (sic) movement -- Arthel.

NEVILLE: Christiane Amanpour, thank you very much for joining us.

OK, and here in Atlanta is CNN international correspondent Jon Mann, who's joining us now. And, Jon, I mean it's the whole vicious cycle that's happening here. Is there any solution at this point that can be implemented or addressed that would end this cycle?

JONATHAN MANN, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: You know, the terrible thing is, and it's a tribute to the United States, that when things get really bad around the world, people turn to Washington. They turn to the United States for help, and that's what they've been doing in recent weeks. We've seen leaders from Egypt ...

NEVILLE: Right.

MANN: ... and Jordan, and Saudi Arabia coming to Washington ...

NEVILLE: But didn't Mubarak say to ...

MANN: ... looking for an answer.

NEVILLE: President Bush, though -- but didn't Mubarak say to President Bush, look, we need to go a ahead and talk about this Palestinian state and now, we can't wait?

MANN: He did. You're absolutely right. And the president was prepared to do that. They've been working on a speech. They've been arguing about the speech from what we've been hearing at the White House, a speech that was supposed to come any day now and it's now been put off. The president says he wants to move ahead with his vision for a Palestinian state of some kind, a ...

NEVILLE: Right.

MANN: ... provisional Palestinian state, an interim state with imaginary borders at the outset and then maybe more final real borders later on. But the thinking at the White House is this: If you move forward now, you're rewarding in a sense or you maybe seem to be rewarding these kind of terror attacks.

NEVILLE: Yes, I mean, I understand that logic, but then in the meantime innocent people are dying. You know what I mean? So at what point - I mean how do we end this?

MANN: Well...

NEVILLE: And I know it's not that simple...

MANN: There may be another calculation as well. It's not just what the president ought to do, it's what he ought to do to that will get Israeli support. The president can say what he wants. Ultimately, Ariel Sharon, the prime minister of Israel, will be extraordinarily important, and I don't think on a day like today, after a suicide bombing in Jerusalem or even yesterday when there was an even worse one in Jerusalem...

NEVILLE: Sure.

MANN: ... Ariel Sharon would support any measure of American generosity towards a vision of a Palestinian state.

NEVILLE: Absolutely.

MANN: He explicitly ruled that out when he was visiting the site of yesterday's bombing.

NEVILLE: But you see why it's such a head scratcher? I mean ...

MANN: It is, which is to be fair, I think why the Bush administration in part has been less speedy, to act, and we haven't heard the speech that everyone is still expecting from the president because they're in a quandary too.

NEVILLE: Well, let's bring Eduardo (ph) who's on the phone now from California. Eduardo (ph), what would you like to say?

EDUARDO: Hi, Arthel. I've lectured on the Middle East out here in Sacramento for many years. My name is Eduardo Cohen (ph). And my lectures are called reversing reality. I served in Vietnam, and in Vietnam -- and also for the Soviet Union in Afghanistan. It would be absurd for us to have said well we're not going to leave Vietnam until all the violence stops. People are not going to accept illegal occupation, and not respond violently. The Israelis have had eight years since Oslo to do something, to free settlement construction, to stop land confiscation, to stop water confiscation, to stop housing demolition, something to give Palestinians the hope that they might actually have a state, not the kind of state Bush is talking about now that might be as much as 40 percent of 22 percent of Palestine, but a real viable state. They have no hope.

The Israelis have more responsibility for the violence than the Palestinian Authority does because it's the Israelis that have killed any hope that Palestinians have had. When there weren't peace negotiations going on, there were almost no suicide attacks.

NEVILLE: Thanks, Eduardo, very much for calling in. Go ahead.

MANN: Let me add a thought to that. Israelis will tell you pretty much the opposite, that every time there is a serious opening towards peace...

NEVILLE: There's more violence.

MANN: ... the opponents of peace will set off something to disrupt it.

NEVILLE: The work...

MANN: The Palestinians ...

NEVILLE: ... of someone or some group that doesn't actually want peace.

MANN: Exactly. The Palestinians will say the same thing from their side. They say every time there is an opening towards peace, there's a calming period, the Israelis will undertake some kind of operation, whether a targeted assassination or they will break ground on a new settlement to disrupt that. So both sides make the same accusation about the other. Every time we are ready, you stick your finger in our eye.

NEVILLE: And this is the vicious cycle that I'm talking about here.

Is John King ready for us? OK, we're going to get John King, senior White House correspondent in on this conversation in a moment to talk about that address from President Bush, and when we can expect it, et cetera.

But in the meantime, I mean that is what I think is - I mean for people, those of us sitting here on this side of the fence and watching these innocent people suffering and dying, we realize that there's not a simple solution, but you have to hope that at some point, each side would want to somehow find some sort of solution, because each side is losing innocent people.

MANN: Neither side trusts the other and both sides may believe that despite the enormous cost. there is no question about making peace, that Ariel Sharon may believe that Israel's only safety, its only long-term security is in being some kind of fortress state and there are Palestinians who believe that the only future for the Palestinian people is in a state that they fight to create, not to wait for Washington or Jerusalem to hand to them ...

NEVILLE: OK.

MANN: ... but that they fight and win.

NEVILLE: Hang on for me John.

(INTERRUPTED FOR BREAKING NEWS)

NEVILLE: And I have with me now Ares (ph) who would like to speak out on the latest develops in the Middle East -- Ares (ph).

ARES: Yes, that's correct. Actually I'm a former Israeli, and I've lived through some of the stuff that you see on TV nowadays. And I want to tell you this is not a simple problem. It's a very complex one. Anybody looking here in the states for a silver bullet, and it's really difficult to find one.

I think the Israeli government and the Bush administration is trying to find the best possible solution under the circumstances. And to Eduardo's comment before. I just want to say there's really nothing in the world that can justify a terrorism act of any sort. And there's really no way we can reward that kind of terrorism act because it'll just get somebody else down the road that is unhappy with something and just think it's a right cause to go and kill innocent...

NEVILLE: So, what should happen next?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well it's very difficult. I don't know what should answer - what should happen. I think it's more of a progress that has to be done through education, through bringing in the community to understand that violence is not going to work on from both ends, but specifically from the terrorism standpoint that it cannot gain any inch and nothing at all through terrorism and you have to find other means to find a solution.

NEVILLE: Thanks so much for speaking out here on TALKBACK LIVE today.

And I'd like to bring in senior -- CNN senior White House correspondent John King now. And, John, we know President Bush is planning an address about the Middle East. When is that suppose to take place and what can we expect to hear from the president?

JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Arthel, that speech now on hold because of the events the past two days, these two bombings. The White House says that the president wants to wait for a moment where he can get maximum impact, if you will, meaning there's no way to get the Israelis or the Palestinians to focus on a peace proposal right now. The Israelis reacting to and treating those wounded and dealing with those killed in the bombing today. Israel also implementing a military response.

The Palestinians complaining about that, so the White House understands this is not the moment. Now when is the moment? We are told the president wants to do so as soon as possible, perhaps by the end of this week on Friday, if not, Monday would be the target for the administration.

The one concern, you do not want to speak out right now, in the middle of all the violence, but the other concern is you do not want to be held hostage to the violence. You do not want to let the suicide bombers think that if there are continued attacks, the president will not deliver his new outline. So we're told to look for it by the end of this week, early next week.

As to what the president will say, he is trying to get ultimately the Israelis and the Palestinians back into direct negotiations. He will lay out some -- a framework we are told, some steps along the way to that, including a demand and insistence for Palestinian political and security reforms, and some -- for Israel to pull back its troops, for Israel to ease economic sanctions on the Palestinians, ultimately a series of steps designed to bring about direct Israeli-Palestinian negotiations about a permanent Palestinian state. It seems wildly optimistic you might say today to think that those negotiations will come about, but the administration is saying the president is determined to press forward as soon as he believes the timing is right.

NEVILLE: OK, John King, thank you very much. And, Jonathan Mann, thank you as well for joining us here on TALKBACK LIVE, and I'm sure we'll see you again.

MANN: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) time.

NEVILLE: All right. We have a lot more to cover and I feel like talking with you, so why don't you go ahead and give me a call at 1- 800-310-4CNN or e-mail CNN at talkback@cnn.com.

And before we take a break, let's look at what else is coming up, OK.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(voice-over): A burned letter, maybe not. Did Terry Barton have another reason for setting the Colorado wildfire?

Also a cheeky policy requiring so-called people of size to buy two airline seats burned some Southwest passengers.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do we have to get on a scale? My weight is private medical information.

NEVILLE: And from Kiss to "Tongue", Gene Simmons thinks he knows what men want. Does he?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: Welcome back everybody, TALKBACK LIVE. I'm Arthel Neville.

What really drove Terry Barton to set the Colorado wilderness on fire? Officials say it was more than that letter. So right now, we're going to go to Lake George, Colorado where we are joined by CNN's Rusty Dornin.

And, Rusty, what is going on with this story?

RUSTY DORNIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Arthel, they don't believe that she took that letter from her estranged letter from her husband and burned it in the campfire pit. Apparently, the investigators, the fire investigators say that the fire actually started outside that pit. So her story is not really matching up with what they say indeed happened. And so they're claiming that she deliberately set this fire and they're going to try to lay their argument out in court tomorrow in Denver.

NEVILLE: And let's talk about those fires right now, Rusty. Are they contained? Are they - were partially contained, and I understand that they're flaring up again?

DORNIN: Well, it was - actually, it was 47 percent yesterday. It went down to 40 percent by today because the winds really blew up yesterday, and sent the fire racing. Another 10,000 acres were consumed. It's now up to 127,000 acres. They think some houses or structures may have been destroyed, but they haven't been able to get back into those areas and actually see.

Now you can tell the winds have come up in the afternoon. It's a little difficult, it looks -- right now the plume is spread out, the wind has spread out, so it just looks like sort of dark clouds. But they is all smoke coming from one area of the fire, where it's been burning and - but firefighters are saying there is a cold front expected this afternoon. They're hoping that will bring the humidity a little bit higher, and that will enable them to get a better handle on this fire, and they'll be - the containment figures will be able to go up.

NEVILLE: Now, Rusty, two things. What have they heard from Terry Barton at this point, and also what about those residents, those people who have been displaced?

DORNIN: First of all, in terms of Terry Barton, the - you know - the -- she lived right up near this area, and of course, there's a lot of hostility and anger towards her about what happened. But you know I talked to a forest service employee as well as somebody that knew her, that both of them do not believe that he would set this fire deliberately. They say that she was a very diligent federal forest service employee, and they just don't believe it. So we'll have to see what the prosecutors come up with tomorrow. As far as evacuees, there are almost 7,000 people out of their homes right now. There were 5,600 as of yesterday, but another 2,000 had to be evacuated late last night when the winds kicked up, but they say they don't believe any more people are going to have to be evacuated today.

NEVILLE: Oh, well that's at least good news. Rusty, thank you so much for being with us and thanks for the update.

OK, joining us now, Doug Allen. He's the chairman of the Wildland Arson Committee of the International Association of Arson Investigators. And I'd like to welcome you to the show, first of all, sir.

DOUG ALLEN, INTL. ASSN. OF ARSON INVESTIGATORS: Good afternoon, Arthel.

NEVILLE: Help us understand now, it hasn't been actually declared yet that Terry Barton actually set these fires deliberately, but, if that is the case, when you have someone who works in an area like that, and wants to be a hero, I will set the fire, I'll get the alarms going and I'm going to be the one to make the big rescues. I mean what is in the mind of someone who does something like this?

ALLEN: Well, generally speaking, the person is looking for attention and quite often find that their friends, relatives, neighbors don't realize that they're kind of a person. Usually everybody is in shock when they find out that they know the fire setter or the fire setter lives next door, but typically the kind of person that might set this type of fire or be a serial arsonist is someone who is generally depressed and feels good about themselves when they start setting fires.

NEVILLE: Wow and you're right. I mean, of course, her friends - I was just listening to Rusty's reports saying her friends were in shock. There's no way she could possibly do something like this.

I mean, you're right, you don't expect your buddy, you know, Sally (ph), who's going to go and set the dag gone forest on fire.

ALLEN: Right, and not too long ago, we had a case in California that gained national attention, was a chief fire investigator that was setting fires, and people were totally shocked that...

NEVILLE: Now, that's...

ALLEN: ... to realize that they did it.

NEVILLE: You know what? Those people are sick. If you do something like that, you're just loony, absolutely ...

ALLEN: Well, legally, I don't know if they're loony. They don't think the way you and I think. And quite often, revenge is a motive. Quite often, depression is a motive. They want recognition. They want to be a hero,.

NEVILLE: You get depressed, get a bottle of booze and drink yourself to sleep. OK, I mean, come on. You don't set...

ALLEN: And it might get worse.

NEVILLE: ... a fire. All right, let me get Steve here from California. Tell me what you do for a living first of all.

STEVE: I work in the fire protection business. My firm designs fire sprinklers and fire hose systems.

NEVILLE: And your comment on all of this is what?

STEVE: Well, the guest actually touched on it. The interesting thing from fire service officers I've spoken to is that it seems almost that they want to be get caught. Serial arsonists invariably begin to get so active that it's impossible to conceal their patterns, and what may start as a curiosity or some sort of a psychological dysfunction turns into a craving and you know, a habitual pattern that has to be fed and fed.

And the case of John Ore (ph) that was described was interesting because in one night, he actually set three or four fires, and many times when -- and I don't mean to say that many arsonists are in the fire service -- but many times when you have an arsonist who is in fire service, it's a calculated career path on their part to facilitate, to acquire, you know, knowledge of perhaps structural components of buildings and ways that you can set fires without being detected, ways that you can set fires that really quickly involve the structure...

NEVILLE: Demented, loony, both apply, don't you think?

STEVE: Well, perhaps, I'm not a psychologist, but these are often times highly, highly intelligent people...

NEVILLE: Intelligent people can be loony too.

STEVE: Well, yes. Demented may be a good word, but certainly dumb and certainly not clumsy.

NEVILLE: When I say loony, I mean, you know, like just not playing with a full deck, couple of sandwiches short of a picnic, that's what I'm talking about.

But listen, hang on for me because I have -- who's on the phone there with me? Carol (ph) is calling in from Massachusetts. Go ahead, Carol (ph). What do you have to say about all of this?

CAROL: Well, I'm outraged. Terry Barton admitted, we know that she set the fire because she admitted it. Now I think that this fire is of historical proportions. I think it should be followed by historical proportions of fines lodged against Terry Barton.

I mean why should taxpayers have to pay for the largest fire in U.S. history and it's causing fire weather now that are causing more fires to be ignited because of the clouds and the lightning. So this is not ending. It's a snowball effect, and this woman should pay and should pay of historical proportions in fines and jail time.

NEVILLE: Thank you very much for your call, and I have Laura (ph) here with something to say. FLORA (ph): I think that doing what she does as a job she should have known better to stay and make sure that the fire was out before she left it.

NEVILLE: She shouldn't have set the fire in the first place.

FLORA: Yes, or she should have put the fire out to make sure it didn't spread.

NEVILLE: OK. Thanks, Laura (ph) for standing up here and speaking out. And, Doug Allen, I'm out of time on this segment, but I definitely want to thank you for being with us today.

ALLEN: Thank you, Arthel.

NEVILLE: OK. We are going to switch gears now - actually maybe not. Well, no, you know what? I'm not going to do that segue. Let me just read the prompter.

Next, talk to Gene Simmons who's going to tell us why men need what he is selling. You don't want to miss this. Don't go anywhere. TALKBACK LIVE continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: Oh, boy.

We have a bunch of church people in here who want to see Gene Simmons' tongue. What is wrong with you people?

(APPLAUSE)

(LAUGHTER)

NEVILLE: Welcome back.

They're deprived, poor things.

All right, welcome back, everybody.

A flashy new men's magazine is making its debut. And, of course, it's wrapped in plenty of female skin. And since its editor is KISS' Gene Simmons, you won't be surprised that he's having a whole lot of fun with it. And it's called -- what else? -- "Tongue."

Gene Simmons...

GENE SIMMONS, EDITOR, "TONGUE": No, no, no, no.

NEVILLE: Oh, go ahead.

SIMMONS: It's called "Gene Simmons Tongue."

NEVILLE: Oh, excuse me, "Gene Simmons Tongue," of course.

SIMMONS: Of course. Because in the same way that "Alfred Hitchcock Presents" isn't just "Alfred Hitchcock" -- it's called "Presents."

You know, I'm getting a little...

NEVILLE: Feedback?

SIMMONS: A little echo in my earphones.

NEVILLE: I'm sorry. I'm going to try to get them to fix that for us.

In the meantime, if you can bear with me, here you say, Gene, that the magazine is for men who are working hardy today, but still know how to turn every day into a party. So, who are those men, Gene?

SIMMONS: Well, I think the magazine is really an extension of who I am, which is why my name is above the title.

There's a simple notion about life, when you really think about it. All philosophies and religion point to it. We've been given the birth of life, either by the grand designer, whoever that is. But, at the end of the day, life is what you make it. And my philosophy about life is, every day above ground is a good day. And you have the choice to either live it or not. I choose to live it.

So, "Gene Simmons Tongue" magazine is really sort of an expression of that philosophy. So, I am unapologetically and unabashedly -- and those are big words like gymnasium -- attracted to all women, all women, all sizes, all shapes. Anybody got a problem?

NEVILLE: I've heard all colors, too.

SIMMONS: Everything. Everything, if it moves, I love you so much with all my heart.

But if anybody's got a problem with that, it's their problem and not mine. So, if can you think of "Playboy," but with the clothes on, because I want to be on every newsstand, "Gene Simmons Tongue" magazine isn't far from that. However, we will cover the spectrum. It is really sex, style and rock 'n roll. Drugs have no place in my magazines.

NEVILLE: Oh, well, that's good.

You have got a lot of sex, though. Page 88, for instance, you have "Fox on the Run." That's the title of an article. And there's a quote here saying -- it says: "They are breaking the rules with 'Sports Illustrated' swimsuit model and actress Josie Maran or advice on squirting cow's milk, hugging pigs, and having sex twice a day."

Then we go on to page 18, Gene.

(LAUGHTER)

NEVILLE: It struck my fancy, for some reason.

Check this out. On page 18, as you know -- I love this -- you're "Calling Dr. Love," the sex-pert you have there, your columnist. She says that most girls know if they want to sleep with a guy within 15 minutes of meeting them.

SIMMONS: I would say that's true.

NEVILLE: Well, you know what, Gene? They say sex sells. Are you banking on that?

SIMMONS: Well, it's the prime directive, isn't it, the primordial urge to merge, if you will? Without it, we wouldn't be here.

And we wouldn't have echo in our earphones, too. I'll find this engineer. I'll find him.

NEVILLE: Gene, I'm going to get that taken care of for you in a second.

But let me get Jason here from Texas.

What do you have to say to Gene Simmons?

JASON: Well, in the day and age that we are, there are so many other magazines out there for gentlemen. What really sets this one apart? And is there a market out there for another men's magazine?

SIMMONS: There's always a market out there for anything that's done well. There is always a time and place. There's Restaurant Row. All the best restaurants line up with each other. There's always room for more good food. The notion that there's a time or a market that sort of prevents you from doing your good stuff is nonsense.

There's no such thing as a bad time for doing anything that's good. And there is always a bad time to do something that's bad. "Gene Simmons Tongue" magazine happens to be a great magazine, which means it's a great time to do it.

NEVILLE: And you know what? You're more than a man with sex on the brain and more than a man who wears makeup and high heels, of course.

Here's what you had to say in your magazine, OK, in your section called "Tongue Lashings." It says: "I've had my own record label. I've managed the careers of other artists, including Liza Minelli's recording career. I discovered Van Halen. I recently wrote a "New York Times" best-selling book, 'KISS and Makeup.' I'm buying a hotel resort."

What drives you?

SIMMONS: Well, I was born in another country. I was born in Israel, as a matter of fact. I know I don't look Swiss. And when I first came to America, I discovered that the promised land wasn't just in the Old Testament. It really is a living, breathing thing. And it's called America. By the way, "only in America" is a phrase that exists here. There's no thing as "only in France" or "only in Sweden." It doesn't fly. The thing about America that's astonishing is that there are no limitations to any dreams. And so, I'm cursed and blessed with having huge ambitions, as are some of my body parts. When I wake up in the middle of the night, I have big ideas.

And then from the ideas to the reality is really an awful lot of hard work. What drives me is America. America is a place without limitations. And there's no reason in the world why "Gene Simmons Tongue" magazine shouldn't be right next to "TIME" magazine. We are just as good.

NEVILLE: OK, well, listen, you know what? I want to switch gears for a second and go from America to the Middle East. And I know I've heard you speak on that situation, that crisis before.

Just your thoughts right now, today, in light of what's happening.

SIMMONS: You know, none of us are really qualified to make adept political sort of sweeping generalizations. There are certain things that are going to really get everybody angry on both sides of the fence. Unfortunately, there's more than two sides of the fence.

So, let me just talk about it from the point of view of pragmatism, which to say that, when you're uneducated, and when Islam is not just your religion, but when it's a very extreme version of that -- because, by the way, my son's best friend is a Persian Islamic boy, who is a great kid who comes over to the house all the time.

But I'm not giving you the "some of my best friends are." This is just reality. The reality is that, when you're in the Palestinian section, and when you're surrounded by mullahs and all kinds of other people who have different agendas, you're not listening to CNN. You don't see that there's an outside world. So, for you, everything is black and white. And, if you're a parent, you actually believe that sending your son to death is a way to get into heaven. So, I can't tell you how heinous I think that is.

But at the end of the day, there has to be a Palestine. There has to be a place where children of those people can grow up and live a life of peace. However, once there's a Palestinian state, once there are legitimate borders, then, if there are incursions, all-out war.

NEVILLE: Thank you very much for speaking out on that for me.

Before I let you go, though, Gene, tell me quickly about your Dragonfly stores and the Dragonfly clothing line.

SIMMONS: Well, first of all, GeneSimmons.com is a place where anybody can log on and find out what I'm up to, besides, of course, wearing high heels and more makeup than your mom ever did in this band called KISS, which, by the way, is America's No. 1 gold record champions of all time. NEVILLE: I read that.

SIMMONS: No other band.

And I'm going to open up a series of stores, the first one in Hollywood. It's called Gene Simmons Dragonfly. And then the second one is going to be in London, England, funded by the princess of Brunei. Oh, hell, there is an awful lot of stuff.

NEVILLE: Absolutely.

SIMMONS: I wish I could send everybody a postcard: "Having a great time. Wish you were here."

NEVILLE: Gene Simmons, you know what? Don't go, because I told you I have these church people in the audience? They need to see your tongue, man. They're need to see it. They are desperate to see your tongue.

SIMMONS: Well, you know, as a former theology student, I can tell you, of course, as a student of Rabbi Yeshua ben Yusef -- and, of course, the Bible students know who that is?

Do know who I'm talking about?

NEVILLE: Guys, raise your hand.

They're clueless, Gene.

Gene, they want to see your tongue. That's it.

SIMMONS: Well, first of all, his name was Yeshua ben Yusef. That's Jesus' real name. And he was a rabbi, because he was a teacher. So, if you're a Bible student and you don't know that his title and his name was Rabbi Yeshua ben Yusef, you need to go back to Bible study.

NEVILLE: OK, but what about the tongue?

SIMMONS: Why are you interested? Is it the size or is it the motion?

NEVILLE: Listen, they want to see it.

SIMMONS: But, does that mean I'm going to sin?

NEVILLE: What? Does that mean you're going sing?

SIMMONS: S-I-N.

NEVILLE: Oh, sin. Well, how is that sinning?

SIMMONS: Well, those are semantics. But, of course, I'm not anti-semantic, so...

(LAUGHTER) SIMMONS: So, you want to see it? Well, come in for a closeup.

NEVILLE: It's there. Go. Do it.

SIMMONS: Come on.

NEVILLE: That's close enough, Gene.

There you go. All right.

(LAUGHTER)

NEVILLE: All right, they're satisfied. Thank you very much for joining us today, Gene Simmons. All right, see you next time.

(LAUGHTER)

NEVILLE: OK, on your next flight, will you pay by the pound? We are going to talk about wide-bodies and narrow seats next. Don't go anywhere. Who knows what going to happen?

Still ahead on TALKBACK LIVE: On Southwest Airlines, if your derriere spills into a second seat, you have to pay for it. And that has some passengers feeling squeezed. Is this policy fair? Take the TALKBACK LIVE "Online Viewer Vote" at CNN.com/TALKBACK and let me know. I bet you have a few airline seat mate horror stories to share, right? I want to hear all about it after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: OK, welcome back, everybody.

There's been a lot of attention today on reports that Southwest Airlines plans to makes it customers of size -- that would mean extra- large people -- buy a second seat. You know how tough it can be, right, when you share a common seat with someone who needs one more space than his or her seat allows. But should some passengers pay more just because they weigh more? Well, Southwest Airlines says it has encouraged customers of size to buy a second seat since 1980.

And, in a written statement to CNN, Southwest says: "Our suggestion, for the greatest advantage to the customer of size, is to plan ahead and purchase two seats at an advance-purchase fare. We will refund the second ticket if the flight does not operate at capacity. These practices are designed with the safety of all customers on board in mind. We want to ensure that every customer on board is comfortable and has access to the entirety of the seat he or she purchased." OK? All right.

Well, here to talk about this now are Russell Williams -- he is the vice president of activism for the International Size Acceptance Association -- and Neal Boortz, a syndicated radio talk show host with WSB Radio in Atlanta.

Welcome to both of you.

RUSSELL WILLIAMS, VICE PRESIDENT, INTERNATIONAL SIZE ACCEPTANCE ASSN.: Thank you.

NEVILLE: OK, Russell, you're up first. What's the beef here?

WILLIAMS: If the rules are applied, they should be applied at least consistently.

If a person is going to be required to purchase two seats, hopefully the seats will be side to side. I've had people tell me they have purchased two seats and then the seats are in different parts of the plane.

NEVILLE: Oh, come on. You've got to be kidding me. Come on.

WILLIAMS: I have heard people tell me this.

NEVILLE: Oh, come on. They have to be making that up. There's no way that somebody would do that, right? Come on.

WILLIAMS: It's a company. Companies can make errors. You know that.

NEVILLE: Yes, OK.

But what do you think about this?

WILLIAMS: How are they going to standardize it? How are they going to decide which people must purchase two seats? How will they decide which set of hips are too wide?

The only way I can think of would be if they would say: "OK, everybody, you have to sit on this bench. And then we will take and we will find out whether or not we can see the red mark or the gray mark. And if we can't see marks on both sides of you, then you have to pay a second price." They're not going to do that.

NEVILLE: OK, but Russell, let me ask you this. Come on, Russell, you know there are people who realize. They know, when they get ready to go to a movie theater or what have you, a concert, sitting in these chairs in this audience, they know. They can look at it and they know if they're going to fit or not.

(CROSSTALK)

WILLIAMS: Not until they get on the plane.

NEVILLE: Yes, but there are people who have flown before, OK?

WILLIAMS: Yes.

NEVILLE: So, they kind of know.

WILLIAMS: They kind of know.

And I am not saying that very large people should not be required to purchase two seats. I'm saying that, if they let them on the plane with one seat, then they should not do -- as happened to two people I personally know -- where, halfway through the flight -- they had to land and then take off again -- they were told, "We will not fly you any further unless you pay for a second seat."

If one airline employee says, "OK, you can get on the plane for this flight," the rules should not change halfway through the flight.

NEVILLE: Well, that's true. I agree with that.

How do you see it?

NEAL BOORTZ, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: OK. I have solved -- I have a solution for one of Russell's problems. It's very easy.

NEVILLE: Go ahead.

BOORTZ: OK.

Right there at the check-in desk, you have mockup of a seat.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

BOORTZ: You sit down in it. Then you stand up. If the seat comes up with you, you buy an extra seat.

(LAUGHTER)

NEVILLE: If the seat comes up with, you take the seat home.

(LAUGHTER)

BOORTZ: Right.

NEVILLE: It's yours.

BOORTZ: If you cannot stand up out of that without that seat rising up with you, you buy an extra seat.

Now, a Southwest Airlines 737 from Dallas to Baltimore, Washington, 130 seats on it. I don't know what the -- let's call it 130 seats. They're selling those seats. If you use two seats, you pay for two seats. This is the simplest argument in the world. Now, if it stops in Memphis and the flight is empty on the way to Memphis, then you don't buy an extra seat on the way to Memphis. If it fills up in Memphis and they have to bump somebody because your right cheek is in their seat, then you pay for the extra seat from Memphis to Baltimore.

NEVILLE: OK, hang on for me, Neal.

(CROSSTALK)

NEVILLE: No, no, you've got take a break. You've got to take a break.

BOORTZ: Well, we've got to talk -- there's one more thing.

NEVILLE: When I come back, we will continue this.

And I want to hear from you at home as well, OK?

Back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody.

We're talking about whether extra-big airline passengers should have to buy two seats.

Brenda, stand up and tell me what you have to say.

BRENDA: I realize that we are in Delta Air Lines country, but Southwest Airlines is a No. 1 airline. They are that way because they have a history of caring and they're concerned.

NEVILLE: And your point is?

BRENDA: And my point is that, yes, I agree with Neal, the extra pay. If not, let them have the option that we would have. If we would want a cheap seat, we have to fly before five on Tuesdays. So, let the plus-size seats be on Tuesdays before 5:00 a.m.

NEVILLE: All right, Jason from Florida, stand up for me.

JASON: Well, the situation is kind of analogous to going to a fast-food restaurant, ordering your food, eating it, and then still being hungry and expecting the fast-food restaurant to give you more food because you're still hungry. Should they have to give you the food, give you the extra seat?

NEVILLE: All right, thank you. Thank you.

I want to read a quick e-mail before we go. Pop it up for me. Pop it up for me.

"I am a large person. I have been forced to purchase two seats on a flight. It's terrible. What is even worse is that I can't even accumulate double bonus miles." That's from Mark in Connecticut.

Well, that's too bad.

Neal, quickly, what do you have to say about this before I go?

BOORTZ: OK, give him the double bonus miles.

And, also, we need another policy here. Fat men with tank tops should have to buy the seats on either side of them. Nobody wants to sit next to him.

NEVILLE: All right, Neal Boortz, Russell Williams, thank you very much for joining us here today.

And thanks to you at home for watching. I'm Arthel Neville. Tune in tomorrow at 3:00 Eastern for more TALKBACK LIVE.

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