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The Story Is with Elex Michaelson
Trump Signs Epstein Files Bill; Democrats Plan Their Future in U.S. Politics; U.S. Floats Peace Plan for Ukraine; Trump Embracing bin Salman Despite Controversies; Billionaire Tom Steyer Announces Bid for California Governor. Aired 12-1a ET
Aired November 20, 2025 - 00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[00:00:00]
COATES: 28th?
ELEX MICHAELSON, CNN ANCHOR: He said a lot of different names including Kamala Harris. But interestingly, he said the most undervalued person is Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, who he said could win the general election. So it's a proof of that, the progressive Mike Donilon is backing one of the most progressive candidates which is not necessarily the way a lot of people think of Joe Biden. But interesting that's the person he would choose.
COATES: Ooh, an interesting show ahead. Have a great one.
MICHAELSON: Thanks so much, Laura. Have a great night.
THE STORY IS starts right now.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHAELSON (voice-over): THE STORY IS, the Epstein files. President Trump signs the bill to release the files publicly. So what comes next?
PAM BONDI, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: We will continue to follow the law with maximum transparency.
SEN. THOM TILLIS (R-NC): Just release the damn files.
SEN. RICHAR BLUMENTHAL (D-CT): At the end of the day, it will all come out.
MICHAELSON: With CNN senior legal analyst Elie Honig.
THE STORY IS, the Trump administration quietly attempting to hammer out a new peace plan between Russia and Ukraine while proudly strengthening ties with Saudi Arabia.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The partnership between our two nations is among the most consequential in the entire world.
MICHAELSON: With us, CNN national security analyst David Sanger. THE STORY IS, the future of the Democratic Party.
JON LOVETT, HOST, "POD SAVE AMERICA": A party being cool is a lot like a person being happy. The more you're thinking about it, the less you're going to find it.
MICHAELSON: With us, co-hosts of "Pod Save America," Jon Favreau, Jon Lovett, and Tommy Vietor.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from Los Angeles, THE STORY IS with Elex Michaelson.
MICHAELSON: And welcome to THE STORY IS. I'm Elex Michaelson.
President Trump promised that he would do it and late tonight he did, signing a bill directing the U.S. Justice Department to release all the files related to convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. He shared that news on social media, calling the move a push for transparency while also taking jabs at some Democrats for their past connections to Epstein.
That law orders the Justice Department to release all files within 30 days. But some lawmakers are concerned the administration may find a way to block it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MANU RAJU, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Recourse if the Justice Department does not release these Epstein files.?
SEN. DICK DURBIN (D-IL): I hope that doesn't happen because that would, of course, defy the act of Congress and the stated intention of the president to release this information.
SEN. JOSH HAWLEY (R-MO): I don't think they'll do that, Elex. I think I'd be really surprised if they tried that.
SEN. ERIC SCHMITT (R- I've been saying for a long time that I think that all the credible information that can be released should be released, and so that's where we're at.
BLUMENTHAL: At the end of the day, it'll all come out because those investigations will be concluded at some point. And then the present leadership of the Department of Justice will be held accountable if it fails to disclose what needs to be revealed.
TILLIS: Just release the damn files. Period. I don't care about how the sausage is made. I just want it out in the open for everybody to consume.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAELSON: That's CNN's Manu Raju on the Hill once again today. Meanwhile, U.S. Attorney General Pam Bondi says the administration is committed to following the law. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: What changed since then that you launched this investigation?
BONDI: Information that has come -- information. There's information that new information, additional information. And again, we will continue to follow the law to investigate any leads. If there are any victims, we encourage all victims to come forward. And we will continue to provide maximum transparency under the law.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAELSON: CNN's senior legal analyst Elie Honig joins me now from New York.
Elie, welcome to THE STORY IS for the first time.
ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Thanks for having me, Elex. I'm honored to join you. This is my debut. I hope it goes OK.
MICHAELSON: I do too. It'll be great like all your hits here.
Let's start, though, with a big news night. In terms of the Epstein files, what happens now? Legally, what's next?
HONIG: So a couple of things, Elex. So this triggers the 30-day window that the Justice Department has to release the Epstein files, but it's not going to be a complete 100 percent release. There's a couple things to watch for. First of all, the law requires DOJ to redact out, to remove identifying victim information. And obviously that's to protect the confidentiality and the privacy interests of the victims.
But the other thing, the big thing to watch for is there's a large loophole in this law that says, basically, DOJ does not have to produce documents that may relate to ongoing criminal investigations. Now, you remember earlier in the week, Pam Bondi announced, we are reopening all these investigations. So it's going to be up to Pam Bondi and Kash Patel what documents relate to an ongoing criminal investigation which they can withhold, or which documents do not, which we will see. So you should expect to see much or most of the Epstein files, but probably not all of them.
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MICHAELSON: So the stuff that they're withholding, does that mean that they're just blacked out names and we see that, or are they basically files that we never see so we have no idea that we're missing anything?
HONIG: So great question. And that's one of the questions that I think Pam Bondi is going to have to wrestle with. For example, let's say there's a 15-page what we call an FBI 302, a summary of an interview, well, they might decide that one paragraph in that 15 pages relates to an ongoing case so we'll redact that out, or maybe even just one line, one name. So we'll redact that out, or they might look at it, DOJ might look at it and say, this whole thing, this whole interview, this whole 302 relates to an ongoing investigation. So we're just going to withhold it entirely. So there's really a lot of play and a lot of discretion here that lands in DOJ's hands.
MICHAELSON: So we see that Larry Summers is stepping back at Harvard because of his connection to Epstein. But any of the people named in this, could there be criminal charges coming for them? Or at this point, is that off the table, it's just more of an embarrassment thing?
HONIG: Well, I think both of those things could be in play. Certainly we've already seen examples like you said, Elex, of people who have been identified publicly, and it's embarrassing and it's scandalous and scurrilous. But I do want to say separately and let's take any particular name out of this, it is still legally possible to charge someone with crimes relating to Jeffrey Epstein's ring.
Now, most of that happened back in the 1990s. Ordinarily, the statute of limitations would say it's too late now. Usually prosecutors have five years or 10 years, depending on the law, to bring a case. However, in federal sex trafficking of minors charges, there's essentially no statute of limitations. And I'd give you Ghislaine Maxwell as an example. She was charged with conduct that occurred from 1994 to 1997, but she was charged with that case in 2020.
So 20 plus years later. She actually appealed that issue. And the court of appeals said, no, it's not too late. The statute of limitations has not run out. There's essentially no statute of limitations. So at least in theory, it is possible to still bring federal criminal charges if they can show someone was involved in the interstate trafficking of a minor for sex or prostitution.
MICHAELSON: Well, it's going to be fascinating to see what comes next.
Elie, thank you so much for the perspective. We really appreciate it.
HONIG: Thanks for having me, Elex. Appreciate it.
MICHAELSON: More now on what we just discussed a bit. Harvard University investigating one of its professors and past president for his past ties with Jeffrey Epstein. A Harvard spokesperson says that Larry Summers will not finish teaching this semester. This comes after the release of e-mails last week that showed years of communications between Summers and Epstein.
Summers was a longtime adviser to Democratic presidents including Bill Clinton and Barack Obama. Now prior to that announcement, Summers had said that he would continue teaching.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LARRY SUMMERS, FORMER HARVARD UNIVERSITY PRESIDENT: Some of you will have seen my statement of regret, expressing my shame with respect to what I did in communication with Mr. Epstein, and that I said that I'm going to step back from public activities for a time. But I think it's very important to fulfill my teaching obligations. (END VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAELSON: Summers says he's also resigning from his position on the OpenAI board. Senator Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts spoke out today. She had previously called on Harvard to sever ties with Summers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA): Larry Summers has shown terrible judgment. I mean, like historically bad judgment. No one should trust Larry Summers' judgment, and Larry Summers' should not be trusted in a position of responsibility.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAELSON: Warren, of course, used to teach at Harvard herself.
Now THE STORY IS business. Nvidia's new earnings report Wednesday surpassed Wall Street's expectations. Sales grew to $57 billion in the October quarter. I'll repeat that. $57 billion in one quarter. That's up 62 percent from the same time last year.
So why so high? Well, most of the world's artificial intelligence technology runs on Nvidia chips. And clearly demand for A.I. chips remains strong despite some questions recently about a potential A.I. bubble. At a U.S.-Saudi investment forum in Washington today, Nvidia CEO Jensen Huang dismissed some of those concerns.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JENSEN HUANG, NVIDIA CEO: There's a whole movement of computing from general purpose computing to accelerated computing, and that, if you just -- if you take that into consideration, you'll come to the conclusion that, in fact, what is left over to fuel that revolutionary agentic A.I. is not only substantially less than you thought and all of it justified.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAELSON: So you see who's sitting next to him there. Huang repeated that sentiment later on Nvidia's earnings call.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HUANG: There's been a lot of talk about an A.I. bubble. From our vantage point, we see something very different.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAELSON: So we just saw Elon Musk there sitting next to Jensen Huang at that U.S.-Saudi investment forum in Washington. Both of them were at the White House last night for dinner with the crown prince of Saudi Arabia and the president of the United States. So let's talk about Musk now. The Tesla CEO says that his electric car
company will pioneer humanoid robots that will eventually make work optional and money obsolete.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ELON MUSK, TESLA CEO: A.I. and humanoid robots will actually eliminate poverty. And Tesla won't be the only one that makes them. I think Tesla will pioneer this, but there will be many other companies that make humanoid robots, but there is only basically one way to make everyone wealthy, and that is A.I. and robotics.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAELSON: Now, if you're a "Star Trek" geek like me, you will remember that in the future, according to "Star Trek," money becomes obsolete.
Sticking with the business theme here, where right now money is not obsolete, President Trump on Wednesday suggested he would fire his own Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent if the Federal Reserve does not decrease interest rates.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Secretary Scott Bessent, who's been fantastic, where's Scott? We're thinking about him for the Fed, but he wants no part of it. He likes being secretary of the Treasury. I think we'll leave him. So let's cross your name off, right? Officially, right? Remember you said that. The only thing Scott is blowing it on is the Fed. Because the Fed, the rates are too high, Scott. And if you don't get it fixed fast, I'm going to fire your ass. OK?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAELSON: Now you see him smiling there. In the past, President Trump has repeatedly threatened to fire Federal Reserve chairman Jerome Powell over his handling of the U.S. economy. Advisers have warned the president of the chaos such a move would create in the financial markets. Powell himself is automatically out of the job a few months down the road.
Meanwhile, on Thursday morning, we will finally see numbers from the September jobs report, which was delayed because of the government shutdown. A big drop in the labor market would likely prompt another rate cut from the Fed.
Now, THE STORY IS politics. Well, this guy wouldn't commit to it when he was our guest on THE STORY IS two weeks ago, but now Democrat Tom Steyer says he is in fact running for governor of California. The billionaire who ran for president back in 2020 launched his candidacy, talking about the issue of affordability. Steyer says the people who make California run are being run over by the cost of living.
Steyer joins a crowded field that includes former health secretary Xavier Becerra, former Congress member Katie Porter and Republican commentator Steve Hilton.
Now to a bigger discussion about the future of the Democratic Party. And for that, we turn to some familiar faces. Jon Favreau, Jon Lovett and Tommy Vietor all are veterans of the Obama administration. They're now co-hosts of the most popular progressive podcast in the country, "Pod Save America." The company they co-founded, Crooked Media, has 25 million unique downloads every month.
I spoke exclusively with them earlier today at their L.A. studios for Crooked.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHAELSON: Let's talk about sort of the state of the Democratic Party right now.
JON FAVREAU, HOST, "POD SAVE AMERICA": Never been better.
MICHAELSON: Yes.
LOVETT: The rebuilding year.
TOMMY VIETOR, HOST, "POD SAVE AMERICA": High graphics (PH).
MICHAELSON: It is -- you guys are the branding people. So if you were to think of like a sentence for what the Democratic Party brand should be, what do you think it is?
FAVREAU: Standing up for working people.
LOVETT: Oh, we're each going to do it?
MICHAELSON: OK. Yes.
LOVETT: I will just like attack the premise of your question like one thing what we try to do, just to be honest with you.
MICHAELSON: Let's go. Please. Yes.
LOVETT: Well, we just had, we just had this big conference. It was called Crooked Con. We brought everybody together. And when we started this, our goal was not to be the people that say what the answer is. It was to try to have a place where as many people felt welcome as possible.
MICHAELSON: Sure.
LOVETT: And so we have people that are on the very far left of the Democratic Party, or even see themselves as outside of the Democratic Party. We have former Republicans, and I think like our goal is to remind everybody and reinforce for everybody that despite really big differences, there will be a lot of different messages and a lot of different kinds of campaigns from like Spanberger to Mamdani, but we're all part of one big pro-democracy movement that has to see each other as part of the same team.
MICHAELSON: Yes. And you see that this concept of pro-democracy is the thing that brings everybody together.
LOVETT: Yes.
MICHAELSON: Yes.
LOVETT: I do. I think, I think that like, we have to have a really strong economic message, as Jon said, going into the midterms.
[00:15:02]
But what unites this big fractious group, it is fighting for regular people. That is about democratic power, that is about economic power.
MICHAELSON: You joke about it being a rebuilding year, but how do you see that? How do you see rebuilding?
VIETOR: Well, I mean, I think to answer your first question, I think, sorry. To answer your first question, I was talking to the executive director of Swing Left today who had just done this big pilot program where they were out canvasing and having deep conversations with voters of all stripes, not just Democrats. And the number one thing they heard was people who feel like the system is broken and rigged against them.
It wasn't necessarily cost or economic concerns or, you know, health care. It was like the system is broken. And I think Democrats, a trap we fell into during the Trump era was defending institutions, defending a broken system. Biden in particular did that. And I think we need to be clear with voters that we're with them. We understand those things are not -- that things are not working for you, that the system can feel rigged against you.
Now, in terms of the rebuilding year, I mean, some of this I think will get solved in 2026 when you're going to have just a huge group of people running for office, lots of new voices, lots of younger voices, hopefully a retirement from older members of Congress. And then the 2028 campaign begins.
MICHAELSON: Yes.
VIETOR: And that's when, you know, the next leader of the party will emerge.
FAVREAU: I do think that branding problems don't get fixed with branding projects or exercises. They get fixed when people actually feel results from the party, right? When they're as -- when the system isn't as broken, and Democrats can take power, get something done, and people feel a tangible difference in their lives because of someone that they elected. And so it's much more difficult to do that than just like playing around with different slogans and messaging. But I do think that ultimately that's what ends up fixing a brand problem.
MICHAELSON: But to your point in terms of the institutions, in some ways Donald Trump ran against the system, right? Bernie Sanders ran against the system as well. This idea of I'm going to be the middle finger to the system, there's a lot of power in that. And this idea that Democrats have been perceived by some as elitist and defending the system doesn't necessarily work.
VIETOR: Yes. I mean, Bill Clinton ran as an outsider. Barack Obama ran as an outsider against the Clinton machine at the time. And so, yes, I do think there is a lot of power in not being perceived as part of Washington, of understanding the system is broken and rigged and saying, I will fight for you to fix it. I mean, you're right, that that is the enduring power of Bernie Sanders. It wasn't just 2016.
That message is resonating to this day, and you're seeing it emulated in campaigns, you know, with moderates, with progressives all across the spectrum.
MICHAELSON: How do we make the Democratic Party cooler so that young people, that others feel more of a connection to it?
LOVETT: I will say this. I think a party being cool is a lot like a person being happy. The more you're thinking about it, the less you're going to find it, right?
MICHAELSON: OK.
LOVETT: Like coolness is -- I know what coolness is.
FAVREAU: Show, not tell. Yes.
LOVETT: Well, I just think, like Bernie Sanders is not who people would initially think as the model of cool on paper. Right? But he has a following of people that really, genuinely believe in him. And his movement was like, like exciting for a lot of young people. Why? Because he was authentic and speaking in a way that people understood. We have to be a movement in which a lot of people have a lot of different points of view, bring their own experience to it but not be kind of striving to try to prove they can hang with the kids because that just doesn't work.
That's chuck Schumer making a camera facing video. It just doesn't work, right? Like you can't try to do it.
MICHAELSON: Be you. Right. You got to be you.
LOVETT: Yes, people have to be themselves. And by the way, like a lot of people aren't cool. But that doesn't mean they're not going to be great elected politicians that actually a lot of people could get behind because they're just being themselves. And you understand what they're fighting for.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MICHAELSON: Next hour here on THE STORY IS the "Pod Save America" crew talks about Jeffrey Epstein, the U.S.-Saudi relationship, and more. And tomorrow here on THE STORY IS they talk about the future of media, podcasting and the biggest lessons they learned from President Obama.
But up next, right here on THE STORY IS we talk about peace efforts in Ukraine. David Sanger is with us to discuss a new possible deal between the U.S. and Russia. Plus, protests take to the streets in North Carolina as federal agents make dozens of new arrests. What we know about the next immigration raids, after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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MICHAELSON: We're getting a blunt response from Ukraine to a reported new U.S. peace plan for the country's fight against Russia. A senior Ukrainian lawmaker called the plan ludicrous in an interview with CNN, and added this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OLEKSANDR MEREZHKO, CHAIR, FOREIGN AFFAIRS COMMITTEE IN UKRAINE'S PARLIAMENT: This plan seems to be aiming at surrender of Ukraine, and for us, it's totally unacceptable and I do hope that it's not serious. Everything looks very suspicious and for Ukraine, it's totally unacceptable to take such decisions without our participation. We hope that President Trump will continue to honor important principle. Nothing about Ukraine without Ukraine.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAELSON: So he spoke after Russia launched another barrage of deadly strikes across Ukraine on Wednesday and ahead of President Zelenskyy's expected talks with a Pentagon delegation in the coming hours, which will include efforts to end the war.
Nick Paton Walsh has more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: A particularly horrific night in Western Ukraine, normally safer compared to the capital and the country's east. But it seems certainly one KH-101 missile hitting one, possibly two residential apartment blocks, causing the majority of the dead of 25 killed.
[00:25:12]
Three of those children across the country in this particularly horrific series of strikes. 92 injured, 18 of those children as well. Nearly 500 drones launched in this attack and nearly 50 missiles as well. The extent of Russian activity causing several NATO nations to respond. Poland closed two eastern airports briefly and scrambled fighter jets, and Romania says that a drone entered into its airspace and caused it to scramble Euro fighters and F-16s.
At the same time, Russia claims it shot down four attacker missiles supplied by the United States that were fired into its Voronezh region. Ukraine has claimed. So a particularly intense night in the skies and significantly distance to the message of a potential new avenue for diplomacy that's been pushed by senior Russian officials and indeed encourage, it seems to, by the White House as well.
It's unclear what this new initiative that seems to be between the Kremlin and U.S. presidential envoy Steve Witkoff involves, in terms of the detail, there's been some reporting suggesting there might be 28 points here, but it's precisely exactly what Russia is willing to offer, that this will all hinge upon, particularly given the new hardline approach of the Trump administration.
On the battlefield Russia is seeing potentially its best weeks in you might argue the past year, particularly around the embattled city of Pokrovsk and to the south of that in Zaporizhzhia, where we've seen some substantial advances in the past week or so.
Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelenskyy in Turkey to try and kick start possibly a separate diplomatic initiative. It's clear both sides want to convey the notion that they need peace here. But for Russia's part, it is seeing success on the front lines and indeed an ability to penetrate deep into Ukraine that we saw last night that would suggest it's seeing progress in terms of the violence it's willing to inflict on Ukraine.
That wouldn't necessarily be compatible with a peace deal at this stage. But another particularly horrific night in Western Ukraine, with a particularly large death toll. The injured and dead involving children.
Nick Paton Walsh, CNN, London.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MICHAELSON: I'm joined now by CNN political analyst and national security analyst David Sanger. He is also the author of "New Cold Wars: China's Rise, Russia's Invasion and America's Struggle to Defend the West."
David, welcome to THE STORY IS for the first time.
DAVID SANGER, CNN POLITICAL AND NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Elex, it's so wonderful to be with you.
MICHAELSON: Thank you so much. Let's start sort of with your big picture takeaway on this deal, which clearly we need a lot of more specifics on. But the basic concept of some sort of deal between Russia, the United States and Ukraine.
SANGER: Well, Elex, a few things that are notable about it. First, it's got 28 points, but we only know of a few of them. And that's basically based on leaks. Second, it sounds from those leaks as if it is quite favorable to Russia and would require President Zelenskyy of Ukraine to make a series of concessions on points he has said before he would not concede on.
And the third thing that's notable about it is that it was only two or three weeks ago that we heard from Secretary of State Rubio that he didn't believe that Vladimir Putin was ready or particularly interested in a peace deal. So it's pretty interesting that one is being negotiated just a few weeks later.
The most notable element of this, though, Elex, is this, that in addition to giving back territory, we believe that the specifics of it would require the Ukrainians to basically have the size of their military agree that there would be no European forces in Ukraine, that would be the security force, and that they would give up their access to long range missiles that could reach deep inside of Russia. Seems unlikely to me that the Ukrainians are going to agree.
MICHAELSON: That was my question. So what's the upside for Ukraine? How do you get them to yes?
SANGER: The only upside for Ukraine here is that the war ends and it's taking a bigger and bigger toll. They're clearly running out of people to draft. You may recall, Elex, that they agreed the draft would only apply to those 25 and above. And President Zelenskyy has been under great political pressure not to lower that number. But it seems to me that the political price he would pay for agreeing to those terms would be incredibly high.
[00:30:03]
MICHAELSON: Meanwhile, the other big foreign policy story of this week is President Trump and his bear hug of Mohammed bin Salman of Saudi Arabia and the increasingly close relationship between the United States and that country.
How does that sort of change the world order? What does that mean for the region?
SANGER: Well, it starts by changing the Mideast order. And Mohammed bin Salman clearly came to Washington to do two things. First, to show that he could; that seven years after the death of Jamal Khashoggi, this has sort of been put on the back burner.
And while it has been by President Trump, you saw how he snapped at the ABC reporter who even asked a question about it. A perfectly legitimate question.
What we have seen now is that President Trump has basically put the Saudis in sort of the pantheon of his No. 1 allies. He added them to the list of major non-NATO allies.
He agreed to sell them F-35s. The only other American ally in the Mideast that has F-35s is Israel. And of course, they're guaranteed a qualitative edge that is clearly eroded some once these arrive.
And he gave them access to the most advanced A.I. chips. These are the chips that are made by Nvidia and others that would enable the Saudis to build these huge data farms on Saudi soil, powered by Saudi oil and gas energy, but also by solar.
So, this is MBS just trying to move past the usual politics of the Middle East and to show that he can be part of a -- or the center of a new Mideast order. And that's pretty appealing to President Trump.
MICHAELSON: And really significant for the rest of the world.
David Sanger, one of the smartest foreign policy minds in the world, joining us here on THE STORY IS. Thank you so much, David. Appreciate your perspective.
SANGER: Thank you, Elex.
MICHAELSON: Sticking with foreign policy, Hamas is warning of a dangerous escalation in Gaza after Israeli strikes across the enclave killed at least 28 Palestinians.
Health officials in Gaza say nine children were among those killed. The IDF says it attacked Hamas targets after the group fired on Israeli soldiers operating in an area, violating the ceasefire deal.
Hamas denies that claim and accuses Israel of trying to, quote, "justify its ongoing crimes and violations."
Up next, we get back to the issue of politics. On the left, Dave Jacobson. On the right, John Thomas. Our political panel is here live to talk Epstein, Trump, the California governor's race and more. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[00:37:42]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Epstein files.
JOE ROGAN, PODCASTER: I heard there's no files. I heard it's a hoax. Then all of a sudden, he's going to release the files. Well, I thought there was no files.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Man.
ROGAN: He wants an investigation now.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Listen --
ROGAN: Like, what is going on?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAELSON: That is podcaster Joe Rogan, who supported Trump in the last election, but more recently has been mocking the president for flip-flopping on releasing the Epstein files.
Joining us to talk about that and more is our political panel tonight. John Thomas is a Republican strategist and the managing director at Nest Point. Dave Jacobson is a Democratic strategist and the co- founder of J and Z Strategies.
It's been ten years since you first appeared on TV together, I hear. Happy anniversary.
DAVE JACOBSON, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Thank you.
MICHAELSON: Longtime sort of pair, sparring partner here on CNN international. It's been years since you've been back together --
JACOBSON: Yes.
MICHAELSON: -- so I'm so happy to have the reunion here.
JOHN THOMAS, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Thank you for bringing this story.
MICHAELSON: Yes, yes, it's a -- it's a big night.
JACOBSON: We used to call it frenemies.
MICHAELSON: Frenemies. So, they're back together tonight. Let's see how it goes.
Dave, let's start with you. The impact of the Epstein files. What do you think of the fact that it's finally potentially coming out? We'll see once we actually get them.
JACOBSON: There's some silver lining that democracy may still work, right? Because it's clear that the American people were salivating for this.
And the fact that you had such a resounding vote in Congress, I think, underscores the fact that Congress was trying to reflect the will of the people, which is a good thing.
Also, I think Donald Trump and his cronies sort of know the fundamentals of this. Like, Donald Trump has a 20 percent approval rating when it comes to the Epstein files, according to the Reuters poll out today.
MICHAELSON: Your thoughts on the whole thing?
THOMAS: I think Trump wanted to go this -- this to go away, not because he's afraid of what's in the files, but I think he felt that it was a distraction from his agenda.
But he read -- he read the tea leaves. And look, I'm what -- I'm fully supportive of the president. But the president campaigned on releasing these files. And you can't make this a platform of your campaign and then say, I don't want to release them, you know, when you get into office.
So, look, I think it's the right thing to do. And I'm glad. Better late than never to see him step up to the plate here.
MICHAELSON: Why, though, the push so intensely to not do this, when so far, we don't have any evidence that he's accused of any sort of criminal wrongdoing or really anything with any underage people.
THOMAS: The president you're talking about?
[00:40:04]
MICHAELSON: Yes. THOMAS: I think -- I think what's happening here is we're not going to see any bombshell about the president released. Quite frankly, we would have seen that under the Biden era if -- if there had been something there.
What I think we're seeing here is there's probably a lot of people that were donors to the president, friends with the president, names we all know that will be made public and get dragged into this Epstein controversy, maybe even just guilt by association. I think the president wanted to spare them from that.
But look, public opinion has spoken, and so they're going to get dragged into it.
MICHAELSON: And we're seeing some of that with -- with Larry Summers, who's been a longtime Democratic adviser to Obama, to Clinton, and others. And now he's certainly being shamed publicly.
JACOBSON: I mean, yes, you're seeing like, senators like Elizabeth Warren are calling him for to immediately resign from his position at Harvard, which I think is a good thing. Like we need to hold these people accountable.
It doesn't matter what political party they're associated with. Like, if you're associating with somebody who is a criminal sex offender, a pedophile, you ought not to be in a position of power. Sorry.
MICHAELSON: What's the deal with Marjorie Taylor Greene and this divorce? I mean, you're the MAGA guy. You understand this world. And who is MAGA siding with in this?
THOMAS: Sure. Well, look, Marjorie Taylor Greene is like a lot of Republicans in this moment, which is she wanted the files released. She's America first. And part of that "America first" agenda. This last time was releasing the files.
So, I can't really blame Marjorie for being consistent. You could maybe argue that she shouldn't have picked such a direct fight with the president, like Thomas Massie.
But look, she's -- she wants these things released. And she won this fight.
Do you think there's like, another agenda here? It's kind of hard for me to figure out what exactly is happening.
JACOBSON: I was going to actually ask John, because he obviously knows the MAGA world much more than I. I wonder, like, is she jockeying for president in 2028? Is she trying to, like, like sort of draw a line in the sand, like I'm the "America first" person?
Because obviously, you're seeing Ted Cruz being rumored about running in 2028. Obviously, the vice president. Like, is she trying to carve out some space on this?
THOMAS: She might, but it's not going to -- it's not going to work. I mean, it's a fine line between disagreeing with the president and attacking the president. I think she went too far in this instance, even if her motivation, at least externally, might be righteous.
The Republican Party, by and large, is still lockstep with the president. So, picking such a hardline fight, only a few characters like Elon Musk are welcomed back into the fold.
MICHAELSON: Yes, and he's the richest man in the world. So that helps him, too.
Meanwhile, speaking of rich, Tom Steyer is joining the California governor's race. The billionaire tried to run for president. Didn't work. Now running.
Let's be clear here. You've got a horse in this race. You're an advisor to Tony Thurmond, who's running for governor. So, you're clearly biased here.
JACOBSON: No doubt.
MICHAELSON: But -- but just sort of your reaction, Thurmond's reaction to what's happening and Tom Steyer getting into this race?
JACOBSON: I would say, like, as a Democrat, billionaires are probably the least popular amongst us.
Like, definitely don't want to push him out of the party. Like we want him to be part of the big tent. But I'm not convinced that being a billionaire is going to be compelling to the California electorate.
MICHAELSON: But you're happy when they fund you, though?
JACOBSON: Yes. No doubt. Definitely.
MICHAELSON: And J.B. Pritzker and everybody else.
JACOBSON: And ballot measures.
MICHAELSON: You take the money, right?
JACOBSON: Totally.
MICHAELSON: You're happy for it?
JACOBSON: Yes. We will take it. Yes.
MICHAELSON: Yes.
JACOBSON: We are -- we are happy to have them as part of the big tent.
MICHAELSON: George Soros keeps spending the money.
JACOBSON: I'm just not convinced at this moment in time -- and timing is everything in politics -- that a billionaire wins.
And look, the guy spent $318 million in his campaign for president and didn't win one state. In fact, "Daily Beast" did a study. He paid about $1,600 per vote when he ran for president.
MICHAELSON: Yes.
JACOBSON: Also, he spent 12 million for the yes on Prop 50. And after that campaign, there was a poll by EMC research that came out showing him only at 3 percent.
So, I'm not convinced that, if he spends 100 million or 200 million, he's going to win this race. But we welcome him to the race. It's a democracy. Anybody can run.
MICHAELSON: And Mike Bloomberg spent even more money in that race and won, I think, like one delegate or something --
JACOBSON: Yes.
MICHAELSON: -- as well. No billionaire has won the -- the governor's race in California.
Your thoughts on Steyer jumping in?
THOMAS: Sure. Look, money is important to get your message out. California has expensive media markets. But at the end of the day, money can get your message out, but it doesn't necessarily persuade.
And I think Tom Steyer's problem is -- I'm thinking about it. You know, he's the climate change guy. And while Democrats may still enjoy talking about climate change, on the Richter scale of intensity for campaigns -- and Dave and I do this for a living -- climate change is down here. It's a box you've got to check. But running singularly on that issue.
And now Tom's going to, what, pivot to being the anti-Trump guy? It seems like an incongruent disconnect. So, his ads aren't -- they're just probably not going to land.
But having a lot of money helps, Dave.
JACOBSON: No doubt.
THOMAS: And that makes him a player.
JACOBSON: Resources are always a good thing when you're running a campaign.
MICHAELSON: Who do you think is the front runner to be the governor of California?
THOMAS: Oh, that's a great question. I would have said Porter, until a few weeks ago, but I think we really haven't seen the frontrunner yet.
I mean, I think Rick Caruso, if he gets in, has a lot of money. He has an advantage. I think he can bring together moderate Republicans. I don't know yet. I think that the frontrunner really hasn't announced yet. So --
[00:45:03]
MICHAELSON: Which I'm sure you disagree with that, as somebody who's running a campaign right now.
But let's talk about an even further away campaign, which is kind of crazy to think about, which is 2028.
Just yesterday I was at USC with Mike Donilon, who's the senior advisor to President Biden, sort of the Biden whisperer, kind of speaking on behalf of Biden.
And I asked him a question of who do you think is the natural successor to Biden and could win the presidency? At first, he did mention the name Kamala Harris, but here's what else he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAELSON: Of the people that are being talked about now, or maybe people that aren't being talked about now, who's the most natural successor to President Biden?
MIKE DONILON, FORMER SENIOR ADVISOR TO PRESIDENT BIDEN: I think one of the people who is really -- I think is underestimated, who would have a really powerful candidacy, would be Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.
MICHAELSON: Do you think she could win a general election, though?
DONILON: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAELSON: That was at the USC Center for the Political Future. Interesting that the president who was seen as a moderate by some, would -- would put forward probably the most progressive of the candidates. What do you -- how do you read that?
JACOBSON: My take is that Mike Donilon is completely and fundamentally divorced from reality. This is the guy who thought -- I'm sorry, but this is the guy who thought Joe Biden should stay in the race after that horrifying debate. Right?
MICHAELSON: And doubled down on that yesterday with me.
JACOBSON: No doubt. And so, I mean, at a time when I feel like Democrats were salivating for change, for a debate, for a real primary, right, last cycle, we were robbed of that by Mike Donilon and President Biden, because they thought he was equipped and in a position to serve another four years. Clearly, America saw the opposite.
And so, I'm not necessarily convinced that he's the best strategist to, like, sort of pontificate about the future of the Democratic Party. But we'll see. I think we've got a great bench and a lot of good candidates who are going to run.
MICHAELSON: Your thoughts on AOC. THOMAS: I actually think he's potentially right. I mean, I look at the
elections that we just saw a couple of weeks ago in some of these blue states, and where was the intensity in the Democratic base? It was on the further left candidates, the Mamdanis of the world.
And I think an AOC candidate in 2028 could enjoy a lot of the same dynamics President Trump enjoyed in '16. Tons of Democrats running, splicing up the traditional lanes, leaving her with a high floor but a low ceiling in the 20s, maybe low 30s, which would be enough for her to run out the clock and be the Democratic nominee.
Now, I think she gets bulldozed in a general. But the other thing is, she's authentic. I think she's nuts on being too far left, but I believe that she believes what she's saying. And authenticity in politics is something you just can't buy.
MICHAELSON: And you think about it. Bernie Sanders got pretty close --
THOMAS: Absolutely.
MICHAELSON: -- twice, and there's a lot of people that are dedicated to that.
But yes, he said that she could win the general election. That might be a tougher putt. We'll see.
THOMAS: Yes.
MICHAELSON: Got a long way to go. Hopefully, we can talk to you guys a lot in between.
THOMAS: Yes.
MICHAELSON: Thank you so much, Dave and John. Great to have you guys --
THOMAS: I think so.
MICHAELSON: -- back together again. We'll be back with more on THE STORY IS right after this.
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[00:52:52]
MICHAELSON: The funeral for former U.S. Vice President Dick Cheney will be held Thursday at Washingtons National Cathedral. The 84-year- old died earlier this month after battling pneumonia, along with cardiac and vascular disease.
A lifelong conservative, Cheney served as George W. Bush's V.P. from 2001 to 2009.
In recent years, Cheney became a critic of President Trump, even voting for Democrat Kamala Harris in the 2024 election. A source tells us that neither Trump nor Vance, the vice president now, were invited to Cheney's funeral.
But former President Bush is expected to speak, and former President Biden, a former vice president himself, is expected to attend.
President Trump says he will host New York City Mayor-elect Zohran Mamdani at the White House on Friday. The president has clashed repeatedly with the self-declared Democratic socialist over the past few months, often calling him a communist, which is something Mamdani says he's not.
Mamdani had sharp words for Trump in his election-night victory speech.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ZOHRAN MAMDANI, NEW YORK CITY MAYOR-ELECT: So, Donald Trump, since I know you're watching, I have four words for you: Turn the volume up. Hear me, President Trump, when I say this. To get to any of us, you will have to get through all of us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAELSON: President Trump threatened to withhold federal funds from New York City if Mamdani was elected.
Mamdani says he hopes their meeting will benefit New Yorkers who struggle to afford the most expensive city in the country.
Meanwhile, the Trump administration's ongoing crackdown on immigration sparked protests like this one in Charlotte, North Carolina, on Wednesday.
More than 100 people gathered to protest federal operations happening in the city and the state.
Charlotte officials say residents reported seeing agents at hospitals, construction sites, restaurants, and other businesses. Department of Homeland Security says more than 250 people have been arrested in Charlotte since the weekend.
Many Democratic leaders have denounced the raids and criticized federal agents' tactics, saying they are not promoting safety.
A live look at the Sphere in Las Vegas, where celebrities, Hollywood A-listers all headed this weekend for the big Formula One race on the Strip, which just takes over. It's going to be something else.
[00:5512]
In the meantime, you see the special "Wizard of Oz" playing at the Sphere on the big weekend that "Wicked Part 2" is opening in theaters.
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MICHAELSON: A volcanic eruption in Indonesia sent thick clouds of hot ash soaring into the air --
