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The Story Is with Elex Michaelson
CNN Obtains First Draft of U.S. Peace Proposal for Ukraine; A.I. App That Creates Digital Clones Sparks Controversy; CNN Finds Evidence That Police Killed Protestors in Tanzania; Semifinal Showdown: LAFC v. Vancouver Whitecaps. Aired 12-1a ET
Aired November 21, 2025 - 00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ELEX MICHAELSON, HOST: A lot of the Holocaust museums have been doing technology like this for years. The idea of being -- be able to have a human face. And so, to be able to hear from generations, I actually think it's really exciting and interesting.
[00:00:11]
And so, the guy behind it, who you saw in that ad, he has not done a TV interview since this thing went viral. He's giving his first interview to us here on THE STORY IS.
LAURA COATES, CNN ANCHOR: Ooh. Now I can't wait to watch. And I'll be able to really dig in. Have a great show.
MICHAELSON: Thanks, Laura. THE STORY IS starts right now.
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
MICHAELSON: And welcome to THE STORY IS. I'm Elex Michaelson. We begin here with breaking news.
Within the last few minutes, CNN has learned the details of a draft U.S. peace proposal for Ukraine, which the White House has so far kept under wraps.
President Zelenskyy received the 28-point draft proposal and met with Pentagon officials in Kyiv on Thursday. The draft, just obtained by CNN, shows Ukraine would have to make some major territorial concessions to Moscow, including the recognition of its Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk regions as de facto Russia. The current front lines would be frozen.
Ukraine would also have to stay out of NATO and limit its military to 600,000. And it would have to hold new elections within 100 days.
In return, it would receive security guarantees. Many of those ideas have been rejected by Ukraine and its allies in the past.
For more analysis, we're joined by Steven Fish, a professor of political science at Cal Berkeley. He's speaking to us from Washington.
We just got this a few moments ago. Professor, what's your first reading? What do you think when you see this?
STEVEN FISH, PROFESSOR OF POLITICAL SCIENCE, CAL BERKELEY: I think it's a joke, Elex. That's my first reading. Not exactly a scholarly way to put it, but I think that's what's really going on here.
It's dead on arrival. The Ukrainians would never entertain the possibility of any of these proposals. The Europeans certainly would not accept them. Any normal American president who actually is looking out for its allies, and itself, and its own security interests, never would have thought of any such thing.
This is basically everything Putin could want and a few things I don't think Putin even thought of that he wants. So, you know, this -- this program is -- is a joke.
And it's remarkable all the more because the Trump administration, for a while at least, started acting a little more sanely about Ukraine. It wasn't overtly taking Putin's side. Trump wasn't overtly doing Putin's work for him.
But then, looks like we're back to -- back to square one.
MICHAELSON: So, we have seen President Trump as a pretty good dealmaker in other regions, including in the Middle East and in other conflicts, as well.
Where do we go from here in this region? What sort of leverage does Ukraine have if they, in fact, see it the way that you do, that this whole thing is a joke?
FISH: Well, they have their armed forces. They have a population that is intent on preventing itself from being conquered. They have their European allies. They have American public opinion, Elex, which is interesting.
The Republicans will never stand up to Trump, but most Republicans, including most Republican congressional leaders, would regard this as a joke. They're on Ukraine's side, as well.
Trump himself and a handful of MAGA people around him actually are the kinds who would want this proposal. But the Ukrainians have just about everybody else on their side.
And we have to remember, Trump has been completely inconstant when it comes to dealing with Ukraine and Russia. Long-term, big picture, he's always on Putin's side, but so far, he hasn't really been able to or withdrawn the United States' support from Ukraine entirely. We'll see if he tries to do that now. But tomorrow it could be a completely different story.
Remember, Trump is anything but consistent on this matter.
MICHAELSON: Well, and to that point, I mean, is it possible that this is sort of an opening round of a negotiation, and this ultimately isn't where he thinks that you're going to end up? Just like if you're doing a negotiation, sometimes you start here, but you know that you're going to end up here.
FISH: Well, that's a good point. And that's the way he operates, oftentimes. And I think that's what he's doing here.
The problem is you don't start off on your enemy's side. If you're a smart negotiator, you start off really sticking up for your friends and really sticking up for yourselves. And then you give, in order to get to -- in order to get to a deal.
What he's doing here is starting on the side of America's and Ukraine's and Europe's enemies.
But of course, this is -- this is Trump. And this is the most dramatic thing he's done in international relations, which is he is seeking to demote his own country from leader of the free world and defender of its allies to a kind of junior partner in Vladimir Putin's Autocracy International, something that we could have never imagined pre-Trump. But indeed, that's what Trump is doing.
[00:05:20]
MICHAELSON: And I don't know if he would say that Russia is America's enemy. He would say that us getting along is good for the world and that we sort of see the world in -- not so much in black and white, might be the Trump response to this.
But it'll be interesting, Professor, to see where this goes from here. We really appreciate you staying up late with us tonight to give us instant analysis for something we're just getting our first look at right now.
Professor Steve Fish, University of California, Berkeley. Roll on, you Bears.
FISH: Thank you.
MICHAELSON: Thanks for joining us.
FISH: My pleasure. Good night, Elex.
MICHAELSON: Now to this. President Trump facing some backlash after accusing some Democrats of what he calls seditious behavior, punishable by death. Those are his own words from a Truth Social post.
He's attacking a group of Democratic lawmakers for releasing a video, urging military members and intelligence officials to disobey illegal orders. He says those lawmakers should be arrested and put on trial.
But the White House now trying to walk back those comments a bit.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just to be clear, does the president want to execute members of Congress?
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: No. Let's be clear about what the president is responding to, because many in this room want to talk about the president's response, but not what brought the president to responding in this way.
You have sitting members of the United States Congress who conspired together to orchestrate a video message to members of the United States military, to active-duty service members, to members of the national security apparatus, encouraging them to defy the president's lawful orders.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAELSON: Now, despite what the press secretary said there, the lawmakers specifically spoke about illegal orders. That's important because, remember, members of the military are required to refuse unlawful orders.
The six Democratic lawmakers in that video have all served in the military and intelligence community. They're vowing they will not be intimidated. They urge people to condemn President Trump's remarks.
The top Democrat in the Senate, Chuck Schumer, labeled his comments as a, quote, "outright threat."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): I have asked the Capitol Police to give special protection and keep an eye on Slotkin and Kelly, as well, because you've got to worry after the president says these things.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAELSON: Meanwhile, a federal judge has ruled that President Trump's deployment of National Guard troops to the nation's capital is illegal.
The district judge says the Trump administration exceeded the bounds of their authority in sending those troops to Washington and, quote, "acted contrary to law" when they deployed the D.C. National Guard for, quote, "nonmilitary crime deterrence missions," in the absence of a request from the city's civil authorities.
Washington's attorney general sued the Trump administration in early September over that deployment. The White House responding to Thursday's ruling, saying, quote, "President Trump is well within his lawful authority to deploy the National Guard in Washington to protect federal assets and assist law enforcement."
That judge delayed an order that would require the troops to leave and gave the Trump administration 21 days to file an appeal, which, of course, they will.
The days-long immigration crackdown that started in Charlotte, North Carolina, last week appears to have ended with confusion, which is kind of how it began. A lot of confusion.
The Mecklenburg County sheriff said Thursday that the operation was over, but then moments later, a top Department of Homeland Security official rejected that claim.
Adding to the confusion, top Border Patrol official Gregory Bovino left Charlotte on Thursday. He and hundreds of his agents are expected to launch an operation in New Orleans after Thanksgiving, as early as December 1.
The Trump administration says the Charlotte operation, which they called Charlotte's Web, resulted in more than 370 arrests. At the same time, residents fearful about that operation closed their businesses, and thousands kept their children out of school.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LETICIA OLMEDO, RESTAURANT OWNER: It's kind of hard to recover from this. It's not going to -- just they leave. Because I think we're going to still have the feeling everything can happen and broke everything. We know -- even me, I don't feel, like, safe because they can come any time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAELSON: THE STORY IS the U.S. economy. The September jobs report is out now, seven weeks late, and it paints a muddy picture. Remember, we got it late because of that government shutdown.
The labor market added 119,000 jobs in September, which was actually an unexpected rebound. We expected to get worse news. The health care and social assistance sector drove overall growth. So, that's good news.
[00:10:08]
But we've seen some bad news recently when it comes to the U.S. economy. The unemployment rate rose to 4.4 percent, which is the highest in nearly four years.
Based on the new data, though, some analysts say the Federal Reserve is not likely to cut interest rates in December, something President Trump has been pushing for.
So, U.S. stocks initially rose Thursday as investors dived into the new labor's report, and they were excited about it. They were excited about Nvidia's earnings report.
But that rally short-lived. The Dow, S&P 500, and the NASDAQ all closed in the red. Tech and A.I. stocks pushed the market lower as concerns are continuing about the potential of an A.I. bubble.
Speaking of A.I., a conversation going with your loved ones even after they die? Well, that's the premise of a viral ad for the 2wai app, which uses A.I. to preserve family members as A.I. digital twins.
That ad has gotten over 41 million views and has sparked a big debate online about life and death in the time of artificial intelligence. Here's part of it. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, congratulations.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She says that he's been kicking a lot, though, like a little too much.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tell her to put her hand on her tummy and hum to him. You loved that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You would have loved this moment.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You can call any time.
GRAPHIC: Before Charlie.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, Mom, I just need a quick video.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is this, like, an audition or something?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, Mom, just three minutes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You need my best side?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAELSON: Calum Worthy is the co-founder of the 2wai app. You may recognize him from his work as an actor years ago, including with Disney. He joins me here on set for his first TV interview since the launch of the app. Congratulations.
CALUM WORTHY, CO-FOUNDER, 2WAI APP: Thank you so much, and thanks for having me here, as well. I really appreciate it.
MICHAELSON: So, what is 2wai?
WORTHY: So 2wai is an interactive avatar platform on your phone. During the SAG-AFTRA WGA strike, I became very nervous about my identity and image and likeness being used without my permission. And around that same time, I saw myself being used as a chat bot on many sites without me actually telling it any information that it should know.
And I got quite nervous and scared about our own identity in this age of A.I. So, my co-founders and I decided that the best way to combat this was to create a platform where you own your name, image, and likeness and all of your data, and you're in control of what your avatar knows and doesn't know.
We like to think of ourselves as the anti-deepfake platform. We're here to empower you and amplify your voice rather than replace it.
MICHAELSON: So, that ad got a whole lot of attention on the Internet. Some -- some folks really liked it. Some folks called it -- the concept creepy and weird and diabolical and dystopian, all the rest of it. What is the story, the idea of keeping your loved ones alive? And how
do you respond to some of those critics?
WORTHY: Well, I think a number of the critics were nervous that we could create an avatar of someone who isn't alive. And the reason why we don't do that is because, therefore, that person would have no control over their avatar, and you're putting words in someone else's mouth.
We don't believe that anyone should be doing that in A.I., especially not in our platform. We are not a grief tech platform, but what we do provide is an interesting opportunity for intergenerational storytelling for future generations.
I would love to go back 200 years ago and be able to talk to my ancestors in the year 1825. I don't have the ability to do that, but 200 years from now, we will have that ability.
MICHAELSON: So -- so, the idea is basically that Grandma, if Grandma wants to, could choose to record an avatar and give that rights to their family members, not Grandma from 15 years ago, who's been dead, all of a sudden comes back to life.
WORTHY: That is correct. It's all about controlling your own A.I. identity.
MICHAELSON: Although you did bring William Shakespeare back to life. You didn't ask him.
WORTHY: That's the one exception. But we worked with the U.K. school system to bring that to life.
MICHAELSON: OK.
WORTHY: So, we're very careful of what he knows.
MICHAELSON: And that's the thing. So, when you go on the app, there's you, but then there's other folks, too. There's a real jacked trainer --
WORTHY: True.
MICHAELSON: -- who can help you with physical stuff. There's William Shakespeare, who I don't know where he got his voice from but nicely done on that.
There's other sort of life coach people, as well. And it also -- it speaks in different languages. Let's listen to some of this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Speak any language, and we'll speak it back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAELSON: So, it also works -- it helps sort of translate stuff?
WORTHY: Yes. So, you're now able to speak 80 different languages.
So, for my own avatar, who's been up on the app for a few months now, I'm able to speak to my fans in every single language around the world. Language and time is no longer a barrier to interact with people.
[00:15:03]
And that's why so many celebrities are so excited about joining the app. We're very excited to announce that Kenan Thompson from "SNL" will be joining the app, both as himself and a number of his beloved characters, as well.
MICHAELSON: What characters are going to be?
WORTHY: I can't announce that yet.
MICHAELSON: OK.
WORTHY: You'll have to wait and see.
MICHAELSON: You got in your phone -- on your phone.
WORTHY: Yes.
MICHAELSON: In your pocket, right?
WORTHY: I do.
MICHAELSON: We can see what this thing looks like. This is what the other Calum looks like, right, who's right there? Can he speak?
WORTHY: You can. Do you want to say something?
MICHAELSON: Yes.
WORTHY: Say hi to Elex and everyone at CNN and say something about the climate crisis, because that is a very important issue.
ROBOTIC VOICE: Hello to Elex and everyone at CNN. The climate crisis is one of the most urgent challenges we face, driven by human activities like burning fossil fuels, leading to greenhouse gas emissions, which result in global warming and extreme weather events. It's crucial for us to take action through sustainable practices and renewable energy to mitigate it.
WORTHY: He likes to talk. He loves to talk about climate change, as do I.
MICHAELSON: So, I tried to do this and download my own. And it was delayed and hasn't come through so far.
WORTHY: Yes. So, we did not expect this much attention on the app. When we put out this commercial, it was just one of many pieces of content that we were putting out there.
It happened to go viral, and we ended up getting tens of thousands of new users uploading themselves as avatars. And we're seeing people from celebrities, experts. People who want to connect with new people in multiple languages and make sure that language isn't a barrier to meet new friends. So, we're seeing so many incredible fun use cases.
MICHAELSON: Calum, congratulations.
WORTHY: Thank you so much.
MICHAELSON: And thank you for giving us your first interview. We appreciate it.
WORTHY: Thank you for joining 2wai.
MICHAELSON: Up next, the hosts of the most popular progressive podcast in America, Jon Favreau. Jon Lovett and Tommy Vietor talk about their old boss, Barack Obama, and what gives them hope in the current political environment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[00:21:00}
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm Barack Obama.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAELSON: That is former President Barack Obama surprising the crowd at Crooked Con in early November.
Crooked Media was co-founded by three of Obama's former staffers, Jon Favreau, Jon Lovett and Tommy Vietor. Their convention brought thousands to Washington. Their podcasts generate 25 million downloads a month.
This week, I sat down exclusively with the co-hosts of Pod Save America, inside their Crooked Media headquarters here in Los Angeles--
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHAELSON: Let's talk for a bit about you guys and how successful you've been, which --
JON FAVREAU, CO-HOST, "POD SAVE AMERICA": Finally.
MICHAELSON: -- which we saw?
FAVREAU: Our favorite topic. JON LOVETT, CO-HOST, "POD SAVE AMERICA": This is good stuff.
MICHAELSON: We saw the Crooked Con, right? Which is amazing if you think about it, that thousands of people traveled to see you guys and to be a part of this convention that you put on, that brought together people on the left of the party, and the center of the party, and the right of the party and all sort of having a conversation.
What did that feel like for you? The fact that you think about how you've grown this company to the fact -- point that you have a convention of people that are coming out to see you guys.
LOVETT: So, really proud, an amazing team made that happen. And I know you've been to conference. We've been to conferences. I have not really thought about how hard they are to put on.
It's a Herculean endeavor. And it -- and from the beginning we wanted to make Crooked a place where everybody that was part of the pro- democracy movement felt welcome. And -- and that building a political movement people would want to join, requires having the kind of party people would want to attend.
And it was a great proof point of that. We had people that have fought each other brutally on the Internet, meeting and actually realizing that they could have a conversation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Woke Sharia, baby.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LOVETT: Donald Trump thinks that he should have control, that -- that democracy is too messy, that you want to dominate, and you want to make people afraid of each other. And democracy is the antidote to that.
And part of that is not just about how we have a government, it's how we treat each other and how we practice these ideas. And that includes getting together and understanding that you might not always agree, but that that's OK.
MICHAELSON: You guys did your show there, and you guys always introduced your names.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOMMY VIETOR, CO-HOST, "POD SAVE AMERICA": I'm Tommy Vietor.
DAN PFIEFFER, CO-HOST, "POD SAVE AMERICA": I'm Dan Pfeiffer.
OBAMA: I'm Barack Obama.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAELSON: And he walks out, who brought all you guys together so many years ago. Was that emotional for you: to feel the crowd, to see him there, to think about the journey you guys have been on together?
JON FAVREAU: Unexpectedly, a little bit. Yes. I hadn't ever seen him sort of surprise a crowd that big before.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: I missed you, too. Which is why I came.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FAVREAU: The coolest thing was like watching the faces of the people in the crowd be really excited and -- and react to him. And that was that was pretty meaningful. That was a cool moment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: I love them, I love you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VIETOR: We've done a lot of live shows. The crowds are great. They're loud. I've never heard anything like when he walked out, It was, like, truly deafening for a full minute. And I think that speaks to his enduring popularity, not just in the party, but in the country, if you look at polling.
And you know, that whole week that that -- Crooked Con was amazing. I mean, look, luck and timing is a lot of life. We were very lucky that we had it after the election that went so well. And before Democrats in the Senate caved on the -- on the shutdown. And people were pretty fired up.
But I think it just -- what it told me was that people are looking for leadership. They're looking to be around each other in a scary, dark time. And if we can help convene and make that happen, it's a good thing.
MICHAELSON: I mean, the Democrats have not had anywhere close to as unifying a figure or as electric a figure since 2008. What do you think is the most important lesson that you've learned from Barack Obama that can be applied going forward?
[00:25:03]
LOVETT: There is a politics of addition, of persuasion that was so core to what Obama as a candidate represented, and then as a president represented; that this idea that like being plain spoken, being direct with people.
But -- but never dismissing people you haven't yet reached or persuaded. The -- the imagining, the possibility of building a really big coalition that brings everybody in like that -- that organizer mentality.
I think often, politics on the Internet -- and I think Democrats who are too online or too afraid of the kinds of people that yell at them on the Internet -- forget that sometimes. And I think people really -- they miss that.
FAVREAU: So, he's a guy named Barack Hussein Obama, a black man from the South Side of Chicago. And the speech in 2004 that sort of launches him onto the national stage is maybe one of the most patriotic speeches that I can remember.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: There is not a liberal America and a conservative America. There is the United States of America.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FAVREAU: He tried to reclaim sort of fundamental American founding values for the story he was trying to tell about where he wanted to take the country and where Democrats wanted to take the country.
And I do think, after ten years of Donald Trump in our lives as the main character in American politics, I think I'm looking for candidates who run for president in 2028 who will think about sort of the larger story to tell about the country, that sort of reclaims what it means to be an American from the vision of the country that I think is much narrower and crueler that Donald Trump has left us with over the last decade.
MICHAELSON: Certainly, his supporters see him as somebody who had a lot of class and gravitas. And, you know, the famous Michelle Obama line.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHELLE OBAMA, FORMER FIRST LADY: When they go low, we go high.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAELSON: And there are a lot of Democrats increasingly, like Governor Newsom, who have kind of said that's a different era. We can't do that anymore. Are you one of those?
VIETOR: You know, I feel like that -- that line has got a little twisted over time. I feel like when they go low, we go high was a perfect line for Michelle Obama in that moment.
I don't think she ever implied, or certainly not President Obama ever implied that we wouldn't fight back and punch back hard. It's sort of more about how you do it.
I think Gavin Newsom's team has had a lot of fun with Donald Trump on Twitter, and I think they've done it in a smart way. Like Jon said, to get attention.
I think the average voter, though, does want a unifying voice like a president that actually does believe the cliche that, you know, half of you voted for me, but like, I represent everyone. And I think we're going to swing back to that.
It might feel sort of inauthentic in this moment of authoritarianism, but I do think it's what voters ultimately want.
MICHAELSON: Congrats on your podcasting success. You're one of the most popular podcasts out there. You recently had an experience with "The Hollywood Reporter," where you sat down with Ben Shapiro and Mel Robbins and Dax Shepard and -- and other podcast hosts. What did you learn from -- from that sort of sitting together?
FAVREAU: You know, I had never met Ben before, and --
MICHAELSON: What did you think?
FAVREAU: He was -- he was very nice, cordial. We didn't talk for, like, a long time.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BEN SHAPIRO, CONSERVATIVE COMMENTATOR: I'm sure Jon would argue the opposite.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FAVREAU: You know, you meet people in person, and you realize it's not going to, like, change my views of their political views or the intensity of the disagreement that I have.
But when you're not just, like, tweeting at each other, and you're just like talking in person, it's -- you know, you can have, like, a civil conversation. And I don't see anything wrong with that.
MICHAELSON: Yes. And you guys are part of this crop of potential nominees for a Golden Globe for best podcast. What would that mean to you, to win a Golden Globe?
LOVETT: It would mean the world to me. Look, I always assumed I would -- it would happen for screenwriting. But now that they're going to do it for podcasts, sure, we'll take it.
Podcasting. We fell into it, because we were just looking for a place to have conversations that we didn't feel like were being had, and that treated people like they were more than just observers of politics, but actually had some agency.
And it turned out there were a lot of people that felt the same way.
And I think what's been great about the democratization of media has been a lot of people, can find their way to an audience where before there have been a lot of people standing in their way.
The problem is, there's a downside to that.
MICHAELSON: Right.
LOVETT: And we are drowning in noise and misinformation and propaganda. And now A.I. that is everywhere.
We want to build an alternative to right-wing propaganda. That requires getting as many people as possible to discover what we're doing. And one way we can do that is getting in front of an audience that might not have heard about -- heard about us before. And sure.
MICHAELSON: And a big part of that, also, is not just having people listen, but then having people get out and vote. And that's where Vote Save America, I would imagine you've registered almost a million people over the years, raised $70 million.
[00:30:11]
Is that the most fulfilling thing you guys do?
VIETOR: Absolutely. I mean, look, basically, we want Vote Save America -- go to VoteSaveAmerica.com if you want to check it out -- to be like a one-stop shop for activism and to kind of be like the "Moneyball" version, where we're not going to tell you to do things that we don't think are worth your time, or that we wouldn't do, personally.
So, that includes, you know, where to donate your money, what campaigns are the most targeted, what volunteer activities you can do. So, we're really, really proud of that.
And honestly, that was the best part of Crooked Con, was a lot of people who are part of Vote Save America were there, and you get to spend time with them in person.
And every time that happens when you're out knocking doors or, like, just interacting in the real world, you just feel like a little bit better about democracy and the future of the country.
MICHAELSON: And to speak on that, and maybe we end on this, you guys and the Obama campaign was all about hope. And there's a lot of people right now who do not feel hope, who feel hopeless. What gives you hope?
FAVREAU: I mean, I would tell people that, you know, if you look at this -- these off-year elections that we just had, thought Democrats would do well, because that's what happens in an off-year election.
But sort of the -- the scale of the margin should tell people that, like, you know, the -- the political instincts you have about what people want, what's right, what's wrong, they're not completely off.
And, if you work hard, if you go out there and volunteer and organize, like, things are -- things are bad now. No use sugarcoating it. But things don't have to stay bad. And you have a role in fixing it.
MICHAELSON: What gives you hope?
LOVELL: First of all, I just I'm not motivated by hope. I am motivated by anger, mostly.
MICHAELSON: Most people -- most people are.
FAVREAU: And the globes. LOVETT: Yes, and the Golden Globes. And my friends at the Hollywood
Foreign Press, who do incredible work, for whom we express nothing but gratitude.
MICHAELSON: Yes.
LOVETT: You know, it's very hard. Donald Trump, his great skill, is he makes people's worst qualities more important. He does that for senators. He does that for members of Congress. He does that for voters. He appeals to the worst in us.
And that's really dispiriting, for someone like that to come back from an insurrection and win again. Someone can appeal to those base instincts and succeed.
But we have had leaders that have appealed to the best parts of us, which are just as true, maybe not feel as true right now, but our job is to create a politics that reminds people of those qualities.
And time and time again in American history, those qualities have won out, even after very dark periods. And democracy is -- it is stronger than it looks. And authoritarianism is always weaker than it looks. And that can be hard to see day-to-day, but it just remains the truth.
MICHAELSON: Tommy, what gives you hope?
VIETOR: I mean, I think we're old enough now to have, like, a little bit of political perspective. And I was working in politics in 2004 when we lost the reelect to George W. Bush and Democrats got wiped out in the midterms in 2002, and then lost again in 2004, and we lost in the Senate majority leader, Tom Daschle.
And it felt about as bleak as it could get for Democrats. There was -- you know, Karl Rove was writing op-eds, talking about a permanent new Republican majority.
And then four years later, we elected president a man named Barack Hussein Obama. And it's an extraordinary thing. And, it's certainly not guaranteed to happen again. But I think, you know, politics in this country is a pendulum. And it can swing one way, and it can swing back. But we've got to be a part of that process, helping that pendulum move. So --
MICHAELSON: How has this job changed your guys' friendship, brought you together, changed the way you think of each other? This -- this sort of crazy experience of being in this.
LOVETT: We no longer make eye contact after about 5:30 p.m. Full silence. This is a performance.
FAVREAU: We'll walk out of this studio just to our own corners of the office.
No, we share -- in this big office, we share a small office. MICHAELSON: OK.
FAVREAU: And --
MICHAELSON: You couldn't talk to the bosses about getting some space?
FAVREAU: They've -- they've offered. They've offered. And we're like, it's just --
LOVETT: And I keep saying no. I like to be in a room with my boys.
VIETOR: Oh, man. Yes. I mean, look, a lot of people go to the office every day and aren't friends with anyone at work and don't get to do things that they care about with people they care about. And so, we're very, very, very lucky.
And it's, frankly, a continuation of the bonds you build in an administration or on a campaign where, like, a lot of days, really suck. But through that shared experience, you build tight friendships and, you know, you become closer.
MICHAELSON: Well, thank you for welcoming us in here. It's a great office, and we really appreciate all this time. Thank you so much.
VIETOR: Thank you for having us.
LOVETT: I think he bought it. You (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
MICHAELSON: Well done. Thanks, guys. Thank you very much. Thank you.
LOVETT: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MICHAELSON: Our thanks to the entire team at Crooked Media. You can see more of our conversation on the CNN YouTube page right now.
[00:35:06]
Still ahead, a CNN exclusive investigation. Thousands filled the streets of Tanzania after a disputed election in October. Now CNN has found evidence that police actually killed protesters. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MICHAELSON: A CNN exclusive investigation has found evidence that Tanzania police killed protesters in the aftermath of a disputed election.
Tanzania's general election at the end of October was the trigger for weeklong protests that rocked the country. Thousands filled the streets, claiming the election was unfair.
In the violence that followed, many did not return home. A forensic examination of videos and satellite imagery reveals police killed protesters.
[00:40:01]
CNN's Larry Madowo has more. But first, we want to warn you: this report contains some very graphic video.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LARRY MADOWO, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Election day, Tanzania. Bloody scenes across the country. The streets have become a hunting ground.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is what the police have done to the people.
MADOWO (voice-over): Security forces cracked down on protesters angry at the government of president Samia Suluhu Hassan, amid claims of an unfair election.
Three weeks on, the true scale of the bloodshed is still emerging. In an exclusive investigation, CNN analyzed dozens of videos showing protesters shot and found evidence linking security forces to the killing of civilians, as well as signs of mass graves that conceal the extent of their brutality.
The main opposition party says at least 2000 people were killed during the weeklong protests.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need our freedom in my country. Why are you -- why are you killing us?
MADOWO (voice-over): With eyewitnesses now too terrified to speak out, CNN alongside open-source investigator Benjamin Strick, has examined what happened across the country.
In the city of Arusha, forensic analysis of video reveals how two people died near this intersection.
It's midafternoon. A group of protesters gather at this corner as armed police approach. Note the man in the red T-shirt, holding what appears to be a rock, who we'll come back to.
At this point, the police are here on the map. Two minutes later, chaos. As people run down the street, the police advance to the intersection. Then, shots ring out.
The woman in purple, carrying a stick and a rock, is hit by a bullet in the back. You can see the hole in the fabric of her shirt here. She falls instantly.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mama!
MADOWO (voice-over): People try to help her. As she lies bleeding, More gunshots.
A minute later, across the street, a group of men takes cover, among them the man with the red T-shirt. From a video filmed on the other side of the road, we can see police are now positioned at the intersection around 100 meters away.
A protester shouts profanity in their direction.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (EXPLETIVE DELETED) you!
MADOWO (voice-over): The man in red is shot in the head.
Audio forensic analysis of these videos confirms the gunshots that killed both of these protesters came from the direction and distance of the police position. The woman in purple died from her injuries in the street. She was three months pregnant and was the breadwinner for her husband and two young children, according to a source close to her family.
The man's wife shrieks in grief over his lifeless body.
These two lives lost are just a fraction of the bloodshed across Tanzania over late October and early November, as the government tried to stamp out the protests.
In Mwanza, Tanzania's second largest city, grim scenes outside the regional hospital. Bodies piled up. One doctor, who was too afraid to speak on camera, told CNN the morgue was full from those killed during the crackdown, saying on one day alone, there were, quote, "four trips with piles of dead bodies taken to the mortuary until it was full, just for others to be piled outside."
He said when doctors tried to save the wounded, quote, "the police would refuse and take them to the mortuary directly for them to die there."
In Dar es Salaam, another morgue overwhelmed. The government called this video fake, but CNN verified the location as Amana (ph) Hospital.
One woman told CNN she recognized her missing brother among the dozens of bodies spread across the floor.
The scale of the killing may never be fully revealed. Police are accused of dumping bodies in mass graves in an effort to conceal numbers.
At this location, North of Dar es Salaam, a video shows a wide area of freshly turned soil. This matches testimony shared with CNN that young men were ordered to dig the site for mass burials.
While CNN cannot independently verify the existence of mass graves, satellite imagery at the Kondo Cemetery before and after the protests shows disturbance in the soil, which supports the allegation.
The Tanzanian police and government have so far refused to confirm a death toll and dismissed the opposition's numbers as, quote, "hugely exaggerated." They did not respond to CNN's request for comment for this story.
For this devastated family, a burial of their missing loved one's belongings is the nearest they will get to closure for now, as the final fate of so many of Tanzania's young people remains unknown.
MADOWO: President Hassan has launched a commission of inquiry into the unrest across Tanzania, but she drew new outrage by suggesting that the protesters were paid to go on the streets.
[00:45:04]
Hundreds of young people have been charged with treason, an offense that carries the death penalty if found guilty.
Larry Madowo CNN, Johannesburg.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MICHAELSON: Our thanks to Larry.
We'll be right back with more of THE STORY IS, including some breaking political news, just in.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MICHAELSON: Some breaking news in the world of politics. Eric Swalwell, the California congressman from Northern California, just announced that he is running for governor of California.
He made the announcement on "Jimmy Kimmel Live!" He put out a post describing him and Jimmy Kimmel as two of Trump's favorite people, in the same studio.
[00:50:02]
Swalwell has built a national platform over the years. He was an impeachment manager in the case against Donald Trump. He ran for president against Joe Biden, and now he is running for California governor in a field that is wide open.
We'll be talking with Eric Swalwell soon, right here on THE STORY IS.
For now, though, we're going to be talking soccer. It's going to be a big weekend for soccer fans. Major League Soccer's playoff semifinal matches are happening.
On Saturday. LAFC will be in Canada to face the Vancouver Whitecaps. No two MLS teams have played each other more often over the last three years than these two.
International star Son Heung-min has elevated L.A.'s offense since he arrived in August, but Vancouver has the most clean sheets in the league this season.
Joining us now on THE STORY IS, for the first time, is Keith Costigan. And he's play-by-play announcer for Major League Soccer on Apple TV. Keith is heading to Canada to call this game, but now he's here in our studio live.
Great to see you.
KEITH COSTIGAN, PLAY-BY-PLAY ANNOUNCER, MAJOR LEAGUE SOCCER: Great to be here. I'm excited for what is, I would think, the biggest game of all four games this weekend, with the star power you just talked about. Son on one side and Thomas Muller, a World Cup winner on the other side. So, so many things to like about this matchup.
MICHAELSON: Are you saying that because you really believe or are you saying that because that's where you're at?
COSTIGAN: Well, I would sell whatever game I'm on, but I can guarantee you everybody's called me and said, what game are you on? I said, this one. They say you're on the best game, OK.
MICHAELSON: So, break it down. What can we expect from this?
COSTIGAN: Well, you mentioned they haven't. They've played each other more than anybody else over the last three years. And LAFC have kind of had their way with Vancouver.
But now Vancouver are ahead of them in the league. They have more goals than them this season. There's a -- there's an air in Vancouver that they feel this is our time.
But you look at LAFC, they're unbeaten against them this year, but they haven't played them with Son and Denis Bouanga on the side.
So, so many story lines. We've had teams before where you think yes they're going to beat them. This is it. This is going to be their day. And the old guard continues to get it done.
So, I'm fascinated to see if LAFC can come up (UNINTELLIGIBLE). If they do, I think they might go all the way and win it all.
MICHAELSON: So, Son is somebody who's known all around the world. This show is broadcast from here in Los Angeles, but we've got a whole lot of viewers in Asia and viewers in Europe as well. And he's known in all of those places. Talk about what a phenom he is.
COSTIGAN: Yes, first of all, one of the nicest people you could meet. Sometimes you think about superstars, and you go, we're going to have to change things around.
He's one of the guys. He's one of the group. When he came in, he made sure everyone on the team knew that.
But you think about all the sports in the world, all the jerseys, all the sales. Steph Curry, LeBron James. His jersey when he signed for LAFC was the biggest selling jersey of any sport worldwide.
MICHAELSON: Wow.
COSTIGAN: LAFC ran out of these jerseys.
MICHAELSON: Really?
COSTIGAN: It was literally go find them. Go to your local sports store, buy them up. So, we had them at the store.
MICHAELSON: Wow.
COSTIGAN: It's incredible. That's how big he is. He was in London for ten years at Tottenham. Great club, big club and humble. His dad is still around him. We heard a great story today from his coach that his dad watches him and gives him feedback afterwards. And he just has this growth mindset. He's not someone that feels he's arrived. He's always trying to get better.
And I think not just what he does on the field now. The example he sets for those young players in LAFCs academy, we're going to feel this for years to come, as well.
MICHAELSON: And obviously, so that's a huge game change for sort of the culture of the league. A lot of eyeballs around the world for a league which sometimes has not always gotten that much respect from other places in the world.
I mean, is he -- and, you know, other folks, as well, that we've seen, you know, Lionel Messi, others sort of changing the way the rest of the world sees the MLS?
COSTIGAN: Yes. Well, look, we asked, what's the biggest game this weekend? We didn't even mention Lionel Messi. Lionel Messi is playing, and he is the greatest to ever play this game.
MICHAELSON: Right.
COSTIGAN: So, that shows you the progress that we're making.
I think next year is a World Cup year. 1994 was the initial World Cup in the U.S. We didn't even have a league. So, you think of the progress that we've made. Apple TV available everywhere worldwide.
I think it's just guaranteed that we're going to have more eyeballs when we bring in these players. We're changing to the calendar to align with European soccer, as well. So, it's just going to get bigger and bigger.
And yes, certainly, I like the idea that more people are tuning in to listen to me, but it's probably Son, as well.
MICHAELSON: Well, I mean, it's crazy when you think about it because Shohei Ohtani, also playing here in Los Angeles, huge ratings spike for the World Series because of those numbers in Asia. And son now doing it, as well, for -- for LAFC.
So, who wins?
COSTIGAN: Well, this is a tough one. I'm in L.A. I -- you know, this is my hometown now. I think LAFC get it done I think it's going to be a really, really tight game, but LAFC get it done. And Son, I think is going to be the star man.
MICHAELSON: Dali dali, black and gold. The most fun sporting event in L.A. Go check out LAFC in person if you get the opportunity.
Keith, thanks for coming in.
COSTIGAN: Thank you for having me. MICHAELSON: Best of luck on the broadcast. I'll be listening.
One Hollywood -- of Hollywood's most anticipated blockbusters is already bringing in some bad reviews. Next hour on THE STORY IS. I'll speak live to film critic Grae Drake on why "Wicked for Good" may not be so good. [00:55:02]
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MICHAELSON: Movie buffs can walk down memory lane at a new exhibit that opens at the London Design Museum on Friday.
They'll be able to see many of the puppets, costumes, and other props made famous by the Oscar-winning director Wes Anderson.
They include a ten-foot replica of the Grand Budapest Hotel, featured in his movie of the same name, and some of the vending machines used in his sci-fi comedy "Asteroid City."
The new exhibit runs until July of next year.
Frida Kahlo's "El Sueno" has set a new record, selling for $54.7 million, the most ever for a work by a woman sold at auction.
The 1940 painting depicts Kahlo asleep in a wooden bed, wrapped in a golden blanket, embroidered with vines and leaves. Above her rest a skeleton and strings of dynamite, crowded with a vibrant banquet.
Listen to this. The painting last sold at auction.
