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The Story Is with Elex Michaelson
Tennessee Inmate in Critical Condition after Botched Execution; Passengers Describe Brush with Death on FlyDubai Flight; Trump Campaigns in Texas & Oklahoma Ahead of Midterms; Trump Officials Sued Over Renee Good Shooting; The Global Race to Dominate Artificial Intelligence; Letitia James to Oversee Probe of Cornell Rape Allegations; Student Protests Over School Conditions Turn Violent in France. Aired 12-1a ET
Aired October 02, 2026 - 00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[00:00:15]
LAURA COATES, CNN ANCHOR: And thank you all for watching. THE STORY IS with Elex Michaelson is next.
ELEX MICHAELSON, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Elex Michaelson, live in Los Angeles. Coming up, THE STORY IS from execution to life-saving care.
Christie [SIC] -- Christa Pike in critical condition after receiving two lethal injections. A Death Row inmate who survived her execution.
THE STORY IS bigger in Texas? President Trump campaigning in red states ahead of the midterms to, quote, "thank them for their votes."
And THE STORY IS regulating A.I. Can the U.S. and China come together to create guardrails? Fareed Zakaria is here with unique insights after Anthropic asked him to help craft their company constitution.
ANNOUNCER: Live from Los Angeles, THE STORY IS with Elex Michaelson.
MICHAELSON: It's 9 p.m. here in Los Angeles, midnight in Tennessee, where the top story is a botched execution. The -- or 11 p.m. in Tennessee.
The Tennessee Death Row inmate, Christa Pike, remains in critical condition and is receiving lifesaving medical care after surviving an execution attempt.
We are awaiting an update on her health, and there are many questions about what went wrong.
Pike survived two lethal doses of pentobarbital on Wednesday night, an outcome death penalty experts are now calling unprecedented.
Witnesses say she could be heard snoring loudly for more than an hour after the process began, and for nearly another 30 minutes after the second dose.
Tennessee's governor, Bill Lee, has suspended executions pending an investigation. Pike's lawyer is urging the governor to now commute her sentence.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RANDY SPIVEY, CHRISTA PIKE'S ATTORNEY: The state of Tennessee has shown us again that they are not capable of carrying out an execution consistent with basic human dignity. Last night was not just inefficient, it was cruel, and it was torturous.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAELSON: Pike was sentenced to death for the 1995 murder of 19- year-old classmate Colleen Slemmer. CNN's Karin Caifa has more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KARIN CAIFA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Attorneys for the woman who survived a failed execution in Tennessee said she was alive Thursday afternoon and receiving hospital care.
SPIVEY: What we have been told is that she is in -- she's in critical condition, receiving life-saving care. That -- that is the extent that we have at the moment.
CAIFA (voice-over): Media witnesses to Wednesday night's failed execution of convicted murderer Christa Gail Pike by the state of Tennessee called it unprecedented.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I covered all the executions last year, and most of the ones this year. We haven't seen anything like it.
CAIFA (voice-over): Now, Tennessee Governor Bill Lee has halted the state's remaining execution this year. And on Thursday he told reporters he's called for a third-party review of the process.
Lee said, quote, "I immediately took action to call for a thorough and comprehensive and third-party review and investigation."
Fifty-year-old Pike was scheduled to die by lethal injection Wednesday morning for the 1995 murder of Colleen Slemmer, a crime she committed at age 18.
An appeals court delayed the execution until the U.S. Supreme Court overturned that stay hours later.
Pike's attorneys say she was given two doses of pentobarbital. Witnesses say she was still alive and snoring loudly after the second dose. Some of the process, witnesses noted, was blocked from their view.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There were moments when the blinds were down for us, and there were moments when the blinds were up for us.
CAIFA (voice-over): The state does not have protocol for what happens if an inmate is alive after the second dose.
In Washington, I'm Karin Caifa. (END VIDEOTAPE)
MICHAELSON: Joining me now live from Denver is Dr. Matthew Winnia [SIC] -- Wynia. He is the director of the University of Colorado Center for Bioethics and Humanities.
Welcome to THE STORY IS. Can you hear me?
DR. MATTHEW WYNIA, DIRECTOR, UNIVERSITY OF COLORADO CENTER FOR BIOETHICS AND HUMANITIES: I'm not hearing you.
MICHAELSON: You're not hearing us. Hopefully, we can get that signal working sometime soon.
Can you hear me now?
OK. in the meantime, we will hopefully go back to him soon. In the meantime, let's get to this story.
President Trump is suggesting a possible Iranian connection in Wednesday's close call on a FlyDubai flight.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I hear some music in the background.
MICHAELSON: But he is offering a very vague explanation for that claim.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
[00:05:07]
MICHAELSON: Sorry about the audio problems. We're clearly having some problems with the automated system. Let's take a listen to what President Trump had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Has anyone briefed you about whether or not the -- the guy, the pilot of the FlyDubai plane is linked to Iran?
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: We're working on it right now. They're being very open with us. I would say the answer, based on what I'm hearing, is yes.
(EN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAELSON: New video obtained by CNN shows dramatic moments after passengers rushed into the cockpit and then subdued the copilot.
He's suspected of attacking and injuring the pilot in mid-flight before the plane plunged 17,000 feet. Officials say they both were flown to Abu Dhabi on Thursday.
The motive behind the attack, still under investigation.
CNN's Jeremy Diamond interviewed the man who helped to take down that suspect.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's hard to imagine, but this family just survived a dramatic brush with death.
Twenty-four hours ago, they were aboard that harrowing FlyDubai flight. Tali was taking her 6-year-old daughter to the bathroom when she says she suddenly heard strange noises coming from the cockpit.
TALI MANES, FLYDUBAI PASSENGER (through translator): I mainly heard banging on the door, something you're not supposed to hear coming from the cockpit. Noises. A man's raised voice.
DIAMOND (voice-over): Suddenly, she says, the cockpit door flung open, and she saw one of the pilots stabbing the other.
TALI MANES (through translator): At that moment, I realized that was it. It was over. I couldn't imagine any way we were going to get out of there. I just screamed, "They're stabbing the pilot! They're stabbing the pilot! Help!" I screamed and screamed.
DIAMOND (voice-over): That's when Tzvika, seen here in a bloodied white shirt, jumped into action, grabbing his daughter from the bathroom before rushing to subdue the attacker.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sit down. Are you a doctor?
TZVIKA MANES, PASSENGER WHO SUBDUED SUSPECT: I heard my wife screamed, screaming and I heard my daughters screaming, "We don't want to die. Father, we don't want to die."
And this, you know, this is -- and I'm getting emotional right now as well. When you hear that your daughters are crying for help, you do whatever you can to -- to help them. And that's --that's what -- that's the trigger that pushed me.
DIAMOND: Do you describe it as instinct?
TZVIKA MANES: It's absolutely instinct.
We were, like, jumping on him, three guys, and with hands. We were struggling with him.
DIAMOND: And I mean, this -- this must have all been happening so fast.
TZVIKA MANES: It's so fast. And the adrenaline is so high. And I didn't know where -- I was covered with blood from fighting with him. I don't know, maybe he was injured. I don't know how.
DIAMOND: It was his blood.
TZVIKA MANES: It was his blood. Yes. I was covered with blood.
You know, I have some bruises here that I only today. I just noticed that -- this is the adrenaline. You know? When you are in this moment, you don't feel anything. You act like -- like, actually, a machine trying to solve, trying to control, trying to -- to be efficient as much as you can.
DIAMOND (voice-over): Tzvika is one of three passengers who rushed toward the cockpit and took down the copilot before he could crash the plane.
But they only managed to get in, thanks to the quick thinking of the plane's captain, Smit Machchhar, who managed to open the cockpit door.
TZVIKA MANES: He's absolutely a hero. He's absolutely a hero. And due to his acts, we are sitting here today.
DIAMOND: Have you ever been in a situation like this before?
TZVIKA MANES: Never.
DIAMOND: Never?
TZVIKA MANES: Never.
There were moments we thought, this is the end of our life, and I'm glad that we succeeded making the change.
DIAMOND (voice-over): Tzvika's daughters are still processing their ordeal, but Milly's (ph) opinion is set on her father.
"He's a hero," she says, "and I love him."
Jeremy Diamond, CNN, Tel Aviv.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MICHAELSON: Reporting -- amazing reporting there from Jeremy Diamond.
Another man is now under arrest in connection to a separate suspected plot to target an air base in England. A 27-year-old British Iranian dual national was arrested in London on Thursday on suspicion of preparing a terrorist act at the Fairford base.
Another British national was questioned, and police also searched two properties.
A day earlier, British Prime Minister Andy Burnham said there are strong indications of Iran's involvement. The base has been used by U.S. bombers to conduct strikes on Iran, but Tehran denies any role in the alleged plot.
[00:10:06]
Back now to our top story. Tennessee Death Row inmate Christa Pike remains in critical condition and is receiving life-saving medical care after surviving an execution attempt.
Joining me now from Denver is Dr. Matthew Wynia. He is the director of the University of Colorado Center for Bioethics and Humanities.
Hopefully, we figured out the audio problem. Can you hear me?
WYNIA: Yes, I can hear you now. Can you hear me?
MICHAELSON: I can hear you. Welcome to THE STORY IS. Thanks so much for being here.
So, let's talk about what happened in Tennessee. It apparently took an hour to prepare the I.V. Seven needles. We know that doctors take the Hippocratic Oath, "Do no harm." Who's carrying this out? Who's -- who are the people actually responsible for this execution?
WYNIA: Well, in the -- in the states that allow capital execution in the U.S., many of them require some form of a health professional to be involved, despite the fact that this is directly contrary -- contradictory to the code of medical ethics and the code of nursing ethics, the code of pharmacy ethics.
MICHAELSON: And so, there are folks that are there. Clearly, something went wrong here.
Let's put up on the screen the number of -- of executions by method since 1977. About 1,500 have been by lethal injection, 163 by electrocution, 19 by gas, six by firing squad, three by hanging.
Why lethal injection? And does that system still really work?
WYNIA: Well, why lethal injection is probably because it is easier on the people who are witnessing the execution, frankly.
It's not necessarily better for the person being executed who's going to die, presumably, at the end of this anyways. But it is medicalization of killing someone. And so, it -- it makes it look more peaceful, I suppose.
MICHAELSON: The witnesses say she was -- she was snoring. She complained about problems with -- with her arm. What happened here?
WYNIA: Well, that's a good question. And of course, I don't know. There will be an investigation into this and try and figure that out.
It's possible that the lethal injection medication didn't go into the vein. As you know, Tennessee has had trouble with botched executions in the past where they were unable to access a vein.
The people who are doing this are generally not sort of at the top of their game. They're the ones who are willing to set aside their ethics.
And so, you -- you almost think that this is an inevitable consequence of -- of forcing people to do something that is outside of their ethical boundaries.
MICHAELSON: Dr. Matthew Wynia from the University of Colorado Center for Bioethics and Humanities. Thanks so much for being with us. WYNIA: Thank you.
MICHAELSON: Still ahead this hour, President Trump hitting the campaign trail in Texas, but in a razor-thin Senate race, is his endorsement a boost or a burden? Our panel -- Dina Doll, Jennifer Horn -- here live to break it down.
Plus, the U.S. government and several Trump officials facing lawsuits over the death of Renee Good, an American woman shot and killed by a federal immigration officer.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[00:18:10]
MICHAELSON: Well, it is getting more expensive to buy a home in the United States. Thirty-year fixed mortgages are now averaging 7.28 percent, which is the highest level since November of 2023.
Mortgage rates have risen for six straight weeks, driven in part by turmoil in the bond market.
Investors are worried that the war with Iran and increased government spending could further fuel inflation, leading the Federal Reserve to push interest rates higher.
President Trump spent his day campaigning for Republicans in Oklahoma and Texas weeks before the midterms. He traveled to the Lone Star State for a rally with Ken Paxton after audio leaked of that Senate candidate questioning whether Trump's support is helping or hurting.
The president -- well, especially support from the midterm convention itself.
The president is defending his stops in Republican strongholds. He says that he is traveling to red states to, quote, "thank them for voting for him."
Well, speaking to the crowd in Denton, Texas, President Trump called Paxton one of the most loyal people. He said Paxton has been at his side more than anybody else, even as he continues to insult the Texas attorney general, including again today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: When I was being hit by the radical left very hard, harder than very few people could have withstood it. I was being hit. Ken Paxton was at my side more than anybody.
And I have to always remember that, because he can be a pain in the ass sometimes. I'll be honest. Is he here, by the way? Oh, there he is. Good. I didn't even know if he's here. I don't care.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAELSON: Let's bring in our panel to discuss: "Meidas Touch" legal analyst Dina Doll; and Jennifer Horn, host of "The Morning Answer" on 870-AM here in Los Angeles.
Jennifer, what is with this? Every time he talks about him, he finds a new way to insult him. What's up with that?
[00:20:04]
JENNIFER HORN, HOST, 870-AM'S "THE MORNING ANSWER": But he's still -- he's still out there working for him.
Look, I think that Ken Paxton has maybe been a little disappointing to the president, just in the amount of work that he has put into his own Senate race in Texas.
But I think that the president respects loyalty, and I think that he has been a longtime supporter.
MICHAELSON: But was he loyal? Because on that leaked audio, he said, yes, that midterm convention, which was President Trump's whole thing, did not do him any favors.
HORN: You know, I don't -- I don't know if that's a loyalty question or not. I think that's his opinion. And maybe he thinks it didn't do him any favors.
I wasn't -- it wasn't taken with that audio so much. I didn't think it was so insulting.
If it didn't help him, well, maybe he needs to get out there and do the work and the messaging himself, rather than relying on the president.
I think right now, there are still a lot of candidates who are looking at the president going around the country on their behalf as a value.
MICHAELSON: Texas, of course, is traditionally a red state; has voted for red state governors and senators for many years.
Let's put up the newest FOX News poll among Texas likely voters, and it shows a dead heat: James Talarico at 51 percent, Ken Paxton at 49 percent. That is a statistical tie in a race that, you know, six months ago, a year ago, if you said Democrats have a shot in Texas, that would be an amazing thing.
DINA DOLL, LEGAL ANALYST, "MEIDAS TOUCH": Absolutely. Because even Republicans don't really like Ken Paxton. Trump backed him because, as attorney general, he tried to interfere in the 2020 election. He tried to get the vote count in Michigan, and Pennsylvania overturned. The Supreme Court stopped him.
That's literally the only reason why Trump backed him. He clearly doesn't like him on a personal level.
But Republicans don't like him on a personal level, either. That poll showed that he's not likable. Democrats like Talarico a lot more.
And then also, you know, even as the attorney general, Republicans impeached him. Cornyn would have done a better job.
MICHAELSON: John Cornyn, the incumbent senator who was running against Ken Paxton. Donald Trump endorsed Paxton instead of Cornyn. And now, we're here.
And interesting numbers as we dig into the polls, Jennifer. Another slice of this FOX News poll is non-MAGA Republicans. These are Republicans who say they are not MAGA. Twenty-two percent of likely voters are willing to cross the aisle and vote for Democrat James Talarico.
I don't know how big --
HORN: Yes.
MICHAELSON: -- non-MAGA is, because MAGA is A pretty big part of the of the coalition at this point. But is that concerning for you at all?
HORN: No, that was actually my question when I saw that poll, as well. How many non-MAGA voters are there in Texas? I mean, there could be 12.
MICHAELSON: Right.
HORN: And it wouldn't make much of a difference. I will say --
MICHAELSON: That's like pro-life Democrats.
HORN: Exactly.
MICHAELSON: It's not a very large number.
HORN: Exactly. So, I'm not too worried about that.
I'm also not too worried about Texas. Look, where -- where Democrats are winning is that Republicans are now being forced to spend money in Texas that they probably wouldn't have had to spend before.
But I remember Beto O'Rourke. He was on the cover of "Vanity Fair," saying he was born for this. And really, where is Beto O'Rourke today? So --
MICHAELSON: I was born for running for president.
HORN: Yes, that's right. He was going to run for president. He was going to run for Senate. So, I don't necessarily think that -- that we're going to lose Texas.
But I will say, just to the point about MAGA Republicans having control here, the reason we have Ken Paxton as a candidate is because John Cornyn was a disappointment to Republicans, not just the president, when he wouldn't actually champion --champion the cause of getting the SAVE America Act passed.
MICHAELSON: Well, and also because Texas is a Republican state. If President Trump can get out the Republican vote, it doesn't matter how many Democrats come out.
And so, are you concerned? I mean, President Trump is out there. But we know that the base does still love him. And he says, pretend I'm on the ballot, because the base traditionally has shown up for him.
DOLL: Well, the base doesn't love him as much as they used to. I mean, the No. 1 concern in that poll is cost of living. Democrats win on that issue.
And also, there is an enthusiasm gap. That poll showed Republicans, even if they made normally vote Republican or like Trump, they're not enthusiastic. And it is one thing to say you like a candidate. It's a whole lot other to put the effort in to actually vote.
MICHAELSON: One of the biggest issues in the last election, especially in Texas, was immigration. And it's one of the reasons that President Trump was able to win over a lot of Democrats along the border, because they liked the idea of cracking down on the border.
He clearly has done that very effectively. But he's gone beyond the border. And that's where sometimes it's controversial.
We have some headlines here I want to put up from CNN. Exclusive reporting that ICE has issued new guidelines and instructions on vehicle stops after shootings. That's the headline. And let's dig into that a little bit.
Immigration and Customs Enforcement officers will only be allowed to conduct vehicle stops if they have completed related training courses, and must ensure that vehicles used for stops are equipped with lights and sirens, according to a new internal guidance reviewed by CNN.
So, that story happening at the same time that we get news that Renee Good's family lawyer is suing. Renee Good was, of course, shot and killed by ICE agents back in January. Today, her family's suing the government. Here's some of the lawyer.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTONIO ROMANUCCI, ATTORNEY FOR RENEE GOOD'S FAMILY: The day of accountability has arrived for our own U.S. government and its governmental agencies, ICE and CBP. Our country cannot tolerate unjustified and excessive use of force, let alone deadly force, on ordinary people who are exercising their rights under the Constitution of this country.
Let me tell you: ICE and CBP are not above the Constitution.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAELSON: As the lawyer here, your thoughts on this case. Even if you may agree with them, is it a good case?
DOLL: It's an absolutely good case. There's two separate lawsuits related. One is a violation of Fourth Amendment right for -- against U.S. government.
And the other, Kristi Noem Stephen Miller, the ICE agent himself, the KKK Act of 1871, that essentially they were -- the -- a conspiracy to violate the equal rights of Somalians and Hispanics. And of course, people are going to protest.
The fact is, this family shouldn't have to do it, though, because there should have been a federal investigation.
Whether or not, at the end of the day, the investigation was going to find criminality or legal liability is one thing, but to stop an investigation before it happens should never happen in a country that cares about justice or the rule of law.
MICHAELSON: Your thoughts?
HORN: Yes, I think -- I think it's tragic. I mean, no one wants to see the loss of life. And it seemed senseless.
But what I witnessed, and I think what all of us witnessed, if we watched honestly, was a woman who, sadly, put herself into the middle of a law enforcement action. And that was not a smart move. And it was, sadly, a life-ending move.
I don't know that this is going to -- to have any impact on -- on the Somali issue or any of that that was going on. And the protests at that point in the state.
I think you have to look at what happened, which was a woman drove herself into a protest and almost drove herself into a law enforcement officer.
Now, I do agree that body cameras and that these new -- these new marked cars are going to be more effective, not only for citizens and non-citizens, but also for ICE to keep them safe while they're out there.
MICHAELSON: Should she have been shot for doing that, though?
HORN: I -- and I don't, I'm not here to say anybody should have been shot. I would never say that. I don't want to see people die.
But when you use your car as a weapon, you have to know that you are taking a risk. And I don't think that she thought this through, obviously.
I mean, her wife at the time, who is now part of this lawsuit, said, Oh no, this was all my fault. I shouldn't have brought her down here.
They knew they shouldn't have been there, but they chose to go and put themselves in a really bad and dangerous situation.
DOLL: I mean, you have a First Amendment right to protest.
HORN: But not drive your car in a police officer.
DOLL: She wasn't driving her car. I mean, you should read this lawsuit. The facts are so clear.
MICHAELSON: We saw her driving her car.
DOLL: But she didn't drive him into the --
MICHAELSON: It was pretty close.
DOLL: She was moving it away. And here's the thing, too. The private autopsy showed there's three bullets that actually penetrated her body.
The first two would not have killed her. The second -- the third one is the one that killed her. And that was done through her driver's side window at a 90-degree angle.
The lethal force that he used. He was no longer. Even if you say her moving it away, if he felt threatened, at that third shot, he was not in danger in any way, shape, or form.
And you know his intent because of what he called her afterwards. If you're on a jury, and you hear a police officer using lethal force, and then saying that about the person right after, I'm telling you, you're going to get a conviction every time.
MICHAELSON: He would say, I thought this woman was trying to kill me.
HORN: Yes.
MICHAELSON: Right?
DOLL: But she -- but thinking it and being reasonable about it are two separate things.
HORN: But how reasonable?
DOLL: That was not a reasonable belief, because her car was slowly turning away from him.
HORN: She accelerated.
DOLL: She said, "I'm not mad at you." She's slowly turning away from him. He could have stepped aside.
And frankly, law enforcement officers in the country know to do things like that. And instead of that, he was angry. He was angry at her. And you see it because of his response after he killed her, the name he called her, and the refusal to render aid. All of that goes into his intent.
HORN: I don't know if you can -- yes, I don't know if you can be in the mind of that police officer and say -- or that ICE agent and say that he was mad or angry. He had a car driving at him, and he responded accordingly.
Look, one thing that we forget in this country is that police officers, ICE agents, law enforcement, they are human beings, and when someone is coming at them, they react. And we hope that their training kicks in. That's why they are trained so proficiently.
But that was a scary situation for him, and he was trying to defend his life.
MICHAELSON: Maybe in this case, the training wasn't so proficient. And maybe that's part of the issue here, as well.
[00:30:03]
Jennifer, Dina, thank you. You both are going to be back in our next hour to talk more politics.
And still ahead this hour, I sit down with Fareed Zakaria to discuss the race for dominance in artificial intelligence. He was just brought in by Anthropic to help them come up with their constitution of what to do about the ethics of A.I. Hear his thoughts when he's on set with me, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[00:35:11]
MICHAELSON: Welcome back. Let's take a look at today's top stories.
President Trump's ban on several media outlets back in the spotlight. A federal judge will hear arguments next Thursday from CNN, MS NOW, and Politico.
They want guaranteed long-term access to the White House. A two-week order restoring their press credentials expires on October 8.
The White House claims their reporting is a threat to national security.
U.S. Treasury Department is sending out $500 refund checks to nearly 1 million Americans. The one-time payments will go to people enrolled in Obamacare through the federal exchange, HealthCare.gov.
Policyholders who did not receive federal premium subsidies qualify. President Trump announced the rebates last month.
California Governor Gavin Newsom has signed landmark legislation setting up guardrails on how lawyers use artificial intelligence.
Under the new measure, attorneys must personally verify citations provided by A.I. and correct any generated material that is false.
The first of its kind law also bars lawyers from entering confidential or other nonpublic information into certain generative A.I. systems.
For more on the topic of A.I. and how to regulate it, I spoke earlier today with CNN's Fareed Zakaria, host of "FAREED ZAKARIA GPS."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHAELSON: Yes. Welcome to THE STORY IS for the first time. FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN HOST: Pleasure. I'm so excited to do this with
you.
MICHAELSON: So, A.I. is a global challenge. You sort of look at how all these countries come together. Do you think it is possible, given the current global world order, for the world to unite and tackle this challenge?
ZAKARIA: You know, at some level, if you put it that way, it seems very hard to imagine.
But actually, you really just need two countries, the U.S. and China. Because at this point, the only two places in the world that are producing real frontier A.I. are the United States and China.
And while you may say, well, that's a huge problem, because they're -- you know, we're so at odds. It's true. But on certain crucial issues, it seems to me there should be room for agreement.
Nobody wants rogue A.I. Nobody wants A.I. that hacks into databases. You know, the Chinese Communist Party, believe me, does not want, you know, rogue A.I. that can go wandering into government databases and things like that.
So, some kind of, you know, maybe even just a kind of mutual reporting agreements and things like that.
Look, it feels very similar to nuclear weapons, where when we started out in the 50s, the United States and the Soviet Union had this crazy arms race, and everyone was worried you could have an accidental launch of a nuclear missile. You could have all kinds of mistakes, mishaps.
It took the Cuban missile crisis. It took a huge crisis. But then --
MICHAELSON: Which almost ended the world.
ZAKARIA: Which almost -- exactly, exactly.
MICHAELSON: And it didn't.
ZAKARIA: People forget.
MICHAELSON: Yes.
ZAKARIA: But that kind of got people sober, sobered the world up, and the U.S. and the Soviets. And we got arms control, and we got the hotline between the -- Moscow and Washington.
Maybe, unfortunately, you know, what I worry about is it'll take a crisis like that.
MICHAELSON: Yes. And what is that crisis?
ZAKARIA: You know, some A.I. that hacks into a system. Look, these -- these -- these models are powerful enough they could shut down whole cities and the power grid. They could go into a bank, take all the data, all the money.
They could -- you know, there are ways they can -- so much of weaponry is now digitized. They look at the Ukraine-Russia war. So much of it is now a kind of digital war being fought by drones. A.I.s could hack into that.
So, there are all those dangers, and you'd hope that we could come up with some just rules of the road.
MICHAELSON: Well, and -- and you were actually invited by the head of Anthropic to go meet with the company and talk to them about what those rules of the road look like.
What did you say to them and what did you learn from that experience?
ZAKARIA: So, this was Anthropic. It was -- it was -- it was a very interesting -- they put a group of us together with the people who are writing the constitution. And it was --
MICHAELSON: Very much their version of a constitution.
ZAKARIA: Their version of a constitution, which is meant to be the kind of governing document that governs Claude, their -- their chatbot, which is, you know, incredibly powerful.
And it was a learning -- you know, it was for us to learn and for -- you know, it was a genuine interaction. I was struck by how serious they are about it, how -- how they take these -- it very, very seriously.
But also, how difficult it is, not just -- you might think that the difficulty is how do you make this all work philosophically? What are -- what are the principles you put in place?
[00:40:02]
But it's also very difficult to figure out where do you put it in the system and why. For example, if you put it at the very start, what's called the pre-training phase, and you say, don't ever do any harm to a human being, which sounds like a reasonable --
MICHAELSON: Yes, it's worked for doctors for a long time.
ZAKARIA: Right. Well, now what if the Pentagon wants to use your A.I.? Right. And the Pentagon is, of course, trying to do harm to certain human beings and certain conditions. How -- is it violating its code? How do you put an exception in? Where would you put the exception in? Would you put it in the pre-training process and the post?
So, it turns out it's a very complicated philosophical challenge, but it's also a complicated technical challenge.
And the main thing I got out of it is you have to have some regulations, some laws. Because asking every company to do this in its own way and -- is crazy because -- MICHAELSON: But that's basically what the president said this week,
right? That he brought everybody together and said, we trust you. We're all signing a non-binding agreement, and we're all good.
ZAKARIA: Right. Imagine if you were to say that to the big pharmaceutical companies.
MICHAELSON: Yes.
ZAKARIA: You guys just do your own thing. Put in your own safety standards and release the drugs whenever you want.
I mean, in the United States today, if you were to have a new pill for treating heartburn, it would go through years of FDA approvals and processes and reviews.
You put out the most powerful technology known to human beings. They say, yes, just do your own thing and put it out whenever you like.
MICHAELSON: But then who changes that? Because if the president isn't going to change it, of the United States, and the Chinese leader doesn't seem like, let's do more regulation. And you say those two countries are at the heart of all this. Who does?
ZAKARIA: Well, it's a sad thing, but we all have to remind ourselves Congress is the first branch of government. All --
MICHAELSON: What?
ZAKARIA: All exist. Exactly. All laws are meant to originate from them. So, that's one avenue.
I think, that, you know, one of the things -- one of the things I liked about that White House declaration is that -- and apparently this was put in by the companies. They said, if -- you know, this is the first step. It may be necessary to -- to put some of this into laws and codes.
Because, look, these companies, you know, it's a classic collective action problem. Everyone knows, if you listen to these companies, they're saying, we all know we need these restraints. But I can't voluntarily slow down, because the other guy will speed up. Right? That's the classic case in which you need regulation.
MICHAELSON: Or that China will speed up.
ZAKARIA: Right. Or that China -- and the China thing is a little overdone.
Look, the Chinese is not like they have no regulations. Right now, Chinese A.I. is much more regulated than U.S. A.I.
MICHAELSON: Wow. Really?
ZAKARIA: From everything we know that -- that has been provided, which again makes sense. This is a communist party that obsesses about control.
So -- and secondly, look, we had a nuclear arms race with the Soviet Union. It didn't mean we didn't regulate our nuclear industry; have enormous kind of reviews.
In fact, it was the Soviets that had the unregulated, lax system that produced Chernobyl.
MICHAELSON: Mm.
ZAKARIA: You know? It's -- the important thing to realize about this is safety and reliability actually go hand in hand with market performance. It means people are more encouraged to use your product if they know it's safe.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MICHAELSON: In our next hour, more of my conversation with Fareed Zakaria. I ask why he thinks California is a, quote, "case study in failed governance."
And yet, in the wake of our debate last night, why so many Californians appear ready to continue to vote for Democrats. That's in our next hour.
But up next, right here on THE STORY IS, new developments in the investigation of an alleged rape at Cornell University. CNN's Jason Carroll is on campus talking to students, speaking out. When we come back.
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[00:48:41]
MICHAELSON: New York Governor -- New York Governor Kathy Hochul says that she is appointing state attorney general Letitia James as special prosecutor in the Cornell University sexual assault investigation.
Hochul says she's lost faith in the ability of the Tompkins County district attorney to fairly oversee that case.
The university says it supports the decision, but students are calling for transparency and accountability from the school. CNN's Jason Carroll is there.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We, as a campus community, stand with victims of sexual violence.
JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A public hearing at Cornell university, where students reacted to the alleged sexual assault at the Chi Phi fraternity house.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm also speaking as a fellow Jane Doe. I was -- I was sexually assaulted almost two years ago. CARROLL (voice-over): Jane Wang, a sophomore, shared her own
experience.
JANE WANG, CORNELL UNIVERSITY SOPHOMORE: Hearing any story from, you know, another student here on campus that they've experienced something similar is so heartbreaking.
CARROLL (voice-over): Cornell continues to face scrutiny following a "New York Times" report that a crucial part of the school's internal investigation omitted Jane Doe's statement: "I can say with 100 percent confidence I was raped."
That allegation not included in what the university handed over to the district attorney.
[00:50:05]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The common sentiment is that there's, like, a moral failing.
LESLIE BAKER, CORNELL STUDENT: People are just, like, really frustrated that it -- it's taking a whole lawsuit for these people to be held accountable and that -- for the survivor to get the justice that she deserves.
CARROLL (voice-over): Students reacting to a "New York Times" report, which revealed the school gathered more than 1,000 pages of materials from an internal investigation in 2024, which included a transcript of campus police interviews with Jane Doe, interviews with Chi Phi fraternity members accused of sexually assaulting her, along with emails and text messages.
"The Times" report says Jane Doe spoke for hours to a Cornell police investigator, as well as an investigator for the school's Title IX office.
According to "The Times," the transcript of their conversation stretches about 120 pages. The D.A. telling CNN Wednesday, "We never received it and still don't have it. It was not part of what Cornell provided to us. We got the six-page statement and nothing more, except the Snapchat video."
The Snapchat was allegedly sent from Chi Phi members, asking others to join in on the alleged assault.
Cornell's investigation also revealed Jane Doe documented her injuries. Two weeks after the 2024 incident, she went to an emergency room for a pelvic exam. She also went to the school's health clinic for treatment of a urinary tract infection, telling a doctor she had contracted the infection in a traumatic way.
The material, reviewed by "The Times" showing Jane Doe went to police after she saw online comments about what happened to her that night at the Chi Phi house, saying members were gang banging.
Jane Doe saying, "That's kind of when I came to the realization that I had been gang raped, gang assaulted. Whatever you want to call it, that's what happened."
Cornell's investigation revealed Jane Doe planned to go back to the Chi Phi house the following week after the alleged assault for a Halloween party, her attorney telling CNN, "It was all part of processing what had happened. She was still in the denial stage. She could not accept what happened to her."
Cornell declined to comment about "The Times" report. No one from the administration spoke at tonight's student assembly. Jane Wang still has a message for them.
WANG: Future cases of sexual violence or sexual harassment on campus cannot only be treated with urgency when it's something that reaches national headlines or national news.
CARROLL (voice-over): Jason Carroll, CNN, Ithaca, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MICHAELSON: Thanks to Jason for that.
Rapper Rick Ross is out of jail following his arrest in Miami on domestic violence related charges. His attorney says Ross is, quote, "being wrongfully accused by an ex-girlfriend whose true motivations are unclear."
According to police, Ross's former girlfriend claimed that a verbal dispute about social media turned physical.
Bail set at $5,000. An arraignment scheduled for late October. The Florida rapper denies the allegations.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICK ROSS, RAPPER: I am totally innocent of these fabricated allegations made against me. I'll be in Dubai tomorrow, Paris Saturday, and I plan on having a bowl of rigatoni with heavy marinara Sunday.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAELSON: Just ahead, French student protests escalate into urban violence as the government announces a raft of deeply unpopular cuts. Plus, our top stories, next.
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[00:58:26]
MICHAELSON: Student protests over school conditions in France are escalating.
The Interior Ministry says that thousands of students have been detained since protests broke out last month, including nearly 2,000 on Thursday alone.
Saskya Vandoorne has more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SASKYA VANDOORNE, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: High school protests are intensifying here in France. I'm in Aubervilliers, just outside Paris, where students have been blockading their high school for over a week now, protesting conditions inside.
Just moments ago, protesters were throwing -- were setting bins on fire, throwing bottles at the riot police. And in response, the riot police tear-gassed the protesters.
VANDOORNE (voice-over): The protests began last week and have since spread across the country. And now, university students are joining the movement.
In Nantes, part of a high school was set on fire on Thursday. And in Lille, riot police used tear gas and charged students gathered behind barricades.
VANDOORNE: The students say their classrooms are overcrowded, that they don't have enough teachers. And some say their schools are literally falling apart.
ALI BEN SAID, STUDENT (through translator): With 30 in a class, were overloaded. We cannot concentrate. And then the A.C. When it's hot, there's no air conditioning. And when it's cold, there's no heating.
VANDOORNE: Some blockades have been peaceful, while others have descended into clashes with police.
VANDOORNE (voice-over): On Wednesday alone, over 600 people were detained, according to the Interior Ministry. Some blame heavy-handed policing for fueling the protests, while others point to members of France's far-left LFI Party turning up at some of the demonstrations.
