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McAuliffe Discusses Road to 2002 Elections; Leavitt Discusses Impact of Olympics on Utah

Aired February 09, 2002 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The way you fight evil is with millions of acts of good.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KATE SNOW, HOST: The president rallies support for the war and his plan to pay for it. Can Democrats mount a loyal opposition to a very popular president? Democratic National Committee Chairman Terry McAuliffe tells us how.

From Utah, the Olympics: How safe are they, and at what cost?

And the debate over the "axis of evil." Did the president go too far?

All just ahead on this special edition of TARGET: TERRORISM.

Good morning to the West Coast, and welcome to our viewers across North America. I'm Kate Snow in Washington.

We're just minutes away from the president's weekly radio address, and Democratic Party Chairman Terry McAuliffe will join me to listen and react to that. Also, the governor of Utah, Mike Leavitt, on the Winter Olympic Games under way in his state amid unprecedented security.

And we also want your telephone and e-mail questions. Our address is security@cnn.com.

But first, this news alert.

(NEWSBREAK)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SNOW: Welcome back to TARGET: TERRORISM on this Saturday morning.

We want to quickly go over to the Pentagon, check in with CNN's Jonathan Aiken on the search being done by U.S. troops on the ground in Afghanistan. Jon, tell us more about that. (NEWSBREAK)

SNOW: Jon, I'm sorry, I have to interrupt you. We have to hear from the president. We'll come back to you.

(BEGIN AUDIO TAPE)

BUSH: Recently I had the honor of welcoming Coretta Scott King and her children to the White House to observe Martin Luther King Jr.'s birthday.

Shortly after the holiday, I visited the school the young Dr. King attended in Atlanta, Booker T. Washington High School. It was a moving experience to see the place where this great American began his life of learning.

February is Black History Month, a time of learning for all of us. Ever since the historian and educator Carter Woodson put black history on the calendar back in 1926, February has been a time to reflect on the contributions of African-Americans and the need to remember and celebrate all of our history.

Nobody can understand this country without understanding the African-American experience. It began when America began. And throughout our history, the experience of black Americans has challenged every American to live up to the best ideals of our country: freedom, equality and justice.

We have come far, and we have a way yet to go. But our goal is the same goal that Dr. King set for us: to be one people in fact as well as in name.

And one way to realize this goal is the same way that Carter Woodson showed us: education. Education is the beginning of opportunity. Through the historic education reform bill I recently signed, we are returning high standards and accountability to all our public schools.

And my administration strongly supports the work and the mission of our historically black colleges and universities. My first budget pledged a 30 percent increase over four years and federal support for historically black colleges and universities and Hispanic-serving institutions. And my new budget, even in a time of recession and war, keeps us on track to reach that target.

These are schools like Morehouse College in Atlanta where Dr. King earned his first degree; schools like Howard University in Washington, D.C., where Carter Woodson was dean of the College of Liberal Arts.

Our historically black colleges and universities opened the door to knowledge when other doors were barred. And today they offer exciting opportunities to young people to contribute to their country.

February is a month rich in important anniversaries. It is the month in which Abraham Lincoln and Frederick Douglas were born, two men, very different, who, together, ended slavery. It is the month of the birth of W.E.B. DuBois, whose eloquent histories opened our countries eyes to its own past and possibilities, and of the birth of Rosa Parks, who courageously refused to yield to injustice on a Montgomery, Alabama, bus.

Today we are fighting for freedom in a new way and on new battlefields. And we continue to press for equal opportunity for every American here at home. We want every American to be educated up to his or her full potential.

We salute the accomplishments of our historically black colleges and universities. And I hope all Americans will draw inspiration from the message of Black History Month.

Thank you for listening.

(END AUDIO TAPE)

SNOW: The president in his weekly radio address talking about Black History Month. He said, quote, "We have come far, and we have a way yet to go. But our goal is the same goal that Dr. Martin Luther King set for us: to be one people in fact as well as in name."

And we apologize, we interrupted, a few moments ago, Jonathan Aiken, to go to the president. So we'll go back to Jonathan now at the Pentagon.

(NEWSBREAK)

SNOW: And joining us now, Terry McAuliffe, chairman of the Democratic National Committee.

Mr. McAuliffe, I hear a Happy Birthday is in order this morning.

TERRY MCAULIFFE, CHAIRMAN, DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL COMMITTEE: Yes, thank you, Kate. Hit 45 today. Halfway to 90.

SNOW: Excellent.

(LAUGHTER)

Halfway to 90, great.

MCAULIFFE: Right.

SNOW: You're in Florida this morning, and I want to ask you a lot of different questions, but let's start with what you're doing in Florida. Tell us about the fund-raiser you attended last night. I understand the former president was there.

MCAULIFFE: He was. Former President Clinton was with us. We had a great event down here. We brought in people from all over south Florida to help the party raise money for the 2002 elections that are coming up this year. We had several of our gubernatorial candidates down here. We had Janet Reno. Bill McBride came last night. So we're very excited about our prospects of getting the governor's mansion back down here in Florida put it in the hands of the Democrats.

SNOW: Now about the White House? Are you gearing up for that yet?

MCAULIFFE: Well, I want to first, Kate, get through 2002. The whole House is up, 36 governors, 34 United States Senate seats. I'm very excited about where the Democrats are in 2002. As you know, last year we won 39 of 42 mayors races. We won both governorships that were up. We won the rural vote; we won the suburban vote.

So 2001, great year. 2002 is even going to be a better year. And then we'll get ourselves ready for 2004 and go back to the policies of job creation, economic stimulus and all of the things that America's working families want the Democrats to fight for.

SNOW: One last question on that, does Al Gore play into any of this for you? I mean, Clinton was there last night. He obviously wasn't there.

MCAULIFFE: No, but the vice president has often -- does many events for the party. He did a bunch of events for us last year. He's very active, helping the 2002 candidates.

You know, by best guesstimate today, Kate, is we're going to have four, five, six people running for president in 2004. I want to make sure that all of the Democrats are using their energies this year so that we can make Dick Gephardt the speaker, Charlie Rangel the chairman of the House Ways and Means, pick up one or two more United States Senate seats, and then win a majority of the governorships.

SNOW: Well, let's go to what the task is in front of you here, because, really, you're up against an incredibly popular president right now. He's up over 80 percent in most of the latest polls.

How on earth do Democrats battle against that kind of popularity? And it's not just the president; the Republican Party is enjoying some real popularity because of that as well.

MCAULIFFE: Well, that's right. But, you know, Kate, last year when we won all across the country, George Bush was at a 90 percent approval rating last year. We won because the Democratic Party was out there fighting on kitchen-table issues.

Listen, under President Clinton, we had 22 million new jobs created, the greatest economic prosperity in the history of our country, surpluses as far as the eye could see.

Now, here we are a year later, 8 million people in the United States are now out of work. We're back into deficit spending. We are now taking money out of Social Security and Medicare trust funds, which President Bush said he would not do. We still don't have a prescription drug benefit. All the things that they promised a year ago have not come to fruition. Deficit spending, you know, no prescription drug benefit, invading the Social Security and Medicare trust funds -- these are fundamental differences between our party.

SNOW: But it's a time of war, and you know very well that Republicans and the president, they brought out their budget this week, and they say, look, it's a time of war, we need spending on the military, we need homeland defense, economic security. So, of course they might have to cut into Social Security a little bit right now, but it's an unprecedented time.

MCAULIFFE: Listen, Kate, I want to be very clear. We were in deficit spending before September 11. Let's be very clear and don't let the Republicans try and shade the truth. We were in deficit spending before September 11.

What the Democrats are fighting for, and I give Tom Daschle credit, who just this week put up a bill in the United States Senate, an economic stimulus bill which 56 senators voted for, 56, but the right-wing Republicans stopped that piece of legislation.

You know, they have tried in the new budget, $600 billion in additional tax cuts. Now, listen, the Democrats are for tax cuts, but we just had $1.35 trillion passed last year. We don't need $600 billion more in tax cuts if it comes directly out of Social Security.

So we're for all the efforts, obviously homeland security, fighting terrorism around the world; let's give all the money we need to for defense and homeland spending. But let's not forget that we should not be doing what we promised the American people we wouldn't do, and take their retirement money -- Social Security, the Medicare trust funds.

And I commend the military who are fighting all over the world. We want to thank them for what they're doing. They're doing a magnificent job.

And, as you know, this is the military that President Clinton, Vice President Gore built up over the last eight years that is fighting over there, and we're all proud of them.

SNOW: You would make that point. Let me get you to a couple more subjects, because I want to fill all of our time here.

Enron, absolutely a huge week on Capitol Hill this week on that subject. Republicans are saying that you guys are struggling -- Democrats are struggling to find an issue, and you see Enron as a potential issue and that's why you're beating that drum.

MCAULIFFE: Well, everybody is out beating the drum. I don't want to spend my time talking about Enron, I'd rather talk about job creation. But when the Department of Justice sends a letter to the White House telling them not to destroy Enron documents, we clearly now have proof -- the Republicans don't like to hear it, but we had contacts inside the White House, we know for sure that Enron was George Bush's biggest donor.

SNOW: But contact doesn't mean wrongdoing.

MCAULIFFE: But, Kate, I agree. But what we know now, Henry Waxman documented 17 specific proposals that the White House worked out with Enron to help them in the energy bill. We know that Ken Lay called Mitch Daniels on a $254 million tax rebate. We do know that Karl Rove got Ralph Reed a job during the presidential campaign, and we do know that Ken Lay was interviewing people to be on the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, the same agency that was to regulate them. So those are the issues.

But it's non-disclosure. Vice President Cheney needs to come clean and tell the American public who were in these meetings.

The Washington Post just did 12 pages, excruciating detail, of exactly what went on inside the White House, with their diaries, who they had talked to about the war on terrorism. Why can't they use that same candor and come forth and tell us what went on in these energy meetings?

This is what Americans pay for -- heating, air conditioning. This is our energy policy, this isn't Dick Cheney's energy policy.

SNOW: Enron is driving something else, as you well know. It is driving a debate next week in the House over campaign finance reform. This is the bill John McCain pushed last year, got it through the Senate. Now it's coming up in the House of Representatives. And it has a pretty good chance, I'm told by people on the Hill, they think they're in pretty good shape.

What does it mean for the Democratic Party, which you lead, for the DNC particularly, if this bill goes through?

MCAULIFFE: Well, what I've tried to do as chairman is take the party back to the small donor. We have to build up our donor list. It's going to force politics back to the grass roots, Kate, and when you do that, everybody benefits. So it's great for the system, it's great for the American public, it's great for grass-roots politics.

SNOW: But Republicans say you have more grass roots than they do, they'll admit that. They say you have union support, you have all kinds of, you know, smaller, local grass-roots groups that support, that tend to be more liberal, that support that Democrats. And that puts you at an advantage, doesn't it?

MCAULIFFE: But, you know, that's why we have got the popular vote in the last three presidential elections. As you know, Al Gore got more votes than George Bush.

MCAULIFFE: That's why the Republicans have not netted a House seat since 1994. They haven't netted a Senate seat since 1996.

But, Kate, let's be clear to your viewers. The Democrats are for campaign finance reform. The Republicans are not for it. The president has not talked about this at all. Let's get special interests, Enron money, out of politics, take it back to the grass roots.

Listen, everybody benefits -- Democrats, Republicans, independents. It's good for the system. The Republicans don't want it. Speaker Hastert said the other day, "This is Armageddon, we need to stop this." The chairman of the Republican Party is not for campaign finance reform. It's good for the system.

I'm for it, I've always been for it. Ninety percent of the votes for campaign finance reform in the last three Congresses have come from Democrats.

SNOW: Do you think the speaker's comments the other day actually helped your side?

MCAULIFFE: I do. I think people have had enough of this. After Enron and the unlimited access that's gone on with Enron, I think they said enough of this big special-interest money in politics, buying the access, take it back to the grass roots.

The votes are there for it. It's going to pass Wednesday.

But, you know, Dick Gephardt rarely calls Speaker Hastert. He called him the other day and said, "You know, I'm going into surgery. Would you please not put up the vote next week?" He immediately put the vote up next week. I mean, this is, this is...

SNOW: Well, they say they delayed it a day out of courtesy. He rescheduled his surgery for yesterday, and I think he's in recovery right now.

MCAULIFFE: He is, and we wish him well. And we want him fighting that lead on the House floor this week for campaign finance reform.

SNOW: OK.

MCAULIFFE: It's going to pass, Kate.

SNOW: It's going to be a good fight.

MCAULIFFE: Right, you bet.

SNOW: Chairman McAufliffe, thank you so much for joining us...

MCAULIFFE: Thank you, Kate.

SNOW: ... this morning on a Saturday. Appreciate it very much.

MCAULIFFE: Thank you. Bye-bye.

SNOW: Bye-bye.

Up next, the world comes to Salt Lake City, Utah. We'll talk with the governor of that state and the head of Olympic security about the extraordinary task of protecting the athletes and spectators during the Winter Olympics. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SNOW: Members of 1980 U.S. hockey team light up the Olympic torch Friday night in Salt Lake City, Utah.

The Olympics roared into action last night, both recognizing and also defying new concerns about terrorism.

Joining us from Salt Lake City is the governor of the state of Utah, Mike Leavitt.

Governor Leavitt, thank you so much for joining us on what must be busy day for you.

GOV. MIKE LEAVITT (R), UTAH: Good morning, Kate. It's a terrific morning in Salt Lake City. The sun is shining, the sky is blue, the snow is on the ground. It's game time.

SNOW: I can see the mountains behind you. I have to, in the interest of full disclosure, tell you I absolutely love your state. I was there last summer, it was just a beautiful state.

Tell me about...

LEAVITT: Well, in the interest of full disclosure, I need to tell you the same thing.

SNOW: OK. Now that we've got that out off the way, tell me about security. It is a serious matter. As the governor of the state, how do you balance wanting all of these visitors to come and see your state and experience the Olympics, versus protecting all of these folks?

LEAVITT: Well, security is our first priority, and it always has been. We had a great plan in place before September 11. It's an even better plan now.

We want the Games to -- we want the security to be comfortably evident. People want to know that there is security here, but they don't want to feel like they are in some sort of armed camp. So we have worked hard at making many of the security features of the Games not evident to the public.

There are 15,000 security personnel that are involved. About 11,000 of them are either military or sworn law enforcement officers. The other 5,000 are volunteers who have been trained to be involved in security.

SNOW: How much time is it taking people to get into the opening ceremonies last night, for example? Is there a long wait?

LEAVITT: Well, we were, of course, quite concerned about that. It was the first test of that process. And this morning I'm told that it was somewhere between 30 and 45 minutes, depending on the circumstances and when you arrived. But the truth is, in a culture that now has come to understand that that's part of our life, whether you're checking onto an airplane or going to a high school football game, that's pretty good. We were proud of that performance.

SNOW: The cost of this, I understand, I gather, is about $310 million. That is it a lot of money. Is that too much to be spending on security?

LEAVITT: I think when the Games are over, assuming all goes well as we believe it will, I think there will be people who will say that that was over-preparation. But we don't have a choice. We want these to be safe Games. We want to make certain that the world knows that the civilized world can still come together and celebrate the things that are most important in our lives, and we're doing that.

SNOW: I want to take a listen quickly, Governor, to the CIA director, George Tenet. He spoke this week about the threat that is still out there.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE TENET, DIRECTOR OF THE CIA: We know that the terrorists have considered attacks in the U.S. against high-profile government or private facilities, famous landmarks and U.S. infrastructure nodes, such as airports, bridges, harbors and dams. High-profile events, such as the Olympics or last weekend's Super Bowl, also fit the terrorists' interest in striking another blow within the United States.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SNOW: Governor, not to be morbid, but how concerned are you that you could be a target out there?

LEAVITT: Our concern, of course, began many years ago. Anytime you are in a high-profile event, that's a concern.

But we have prepared. As you indicated, $350 million, 15,000 personnel, seven years in the planning. We are ready. Obviously, no one can eliminate every risk, but I think if there is a safe place on the planet for the next six days it's going to be Salt Lake City.

SNOW: I understand there are air restrictions in place. Can you tell us about that? And does it mean there is absolutely no air traffic? What happens if a plane starts flying over Salt Lake City, or the Games?

LEAVITT: If you get within 45 miles of Salt Lake City and you haven't identified yourself, you're going to have a visitor.

SNOW: A visitor in the form of U.S. military?

LEAVITT: In the form of U.S. military, yes. And frankly, they've got the capacity to enforce the restrictions if necessary. It's being handled... SNOW: Does that mean they have the ability to shoot down, if necessary?

LEAVITT: It means they have the ability to enforce those areas if necessary. And we're not taking any chances.

Last evening there were no airplanes or aircraft in the area during the opening ceremonies. If a person is flying into Salt Lake City, they stop at a gateway airport outside the state just like they would if they were walking through a magnetometer or having their car inspected. And it takes a little more time and it's expensive, but it's the culture we live in.

But we're not going to allow it to stop this kind of important world event. This is the first time the world has been able to come together since September the 11th.

LEAVITT: And it's a place where we're healing, and we're also celebrating peace and courage and human accomplishment.

There was, during the opening ceremonies last night, just a jubilation. It was just -- it was just remarkable. And to have 80 flags of 80 nations bound together, defying evil with good, what a remarkable and important thing. And we're just not going to allow security to stand in our way of that kind of an experience.

SNOW: Governor, a few more questions on security at the Winter Olympics and also some more broad questions about your state when we come back. I want to ask you more, if you'll hold on.

We're going to take your phone calls to our viewers and e-mails as well, if you would like to send those, for the Utah governor, Mike Leavitt. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SNOW: And important source of information about the news of the day, the war, the terrorism investigation and also the Olympics, can be found online at CNN.com, AOL keyword is CNN.

It's time to get another check now of the hour's top stories. Here is Miles O'Brien in Atlanta with a news alert.

(NEWSBREAK)

SNOW: Take a look at public fears about terror attacks on the Olympics.

According to a Gallup poll of people earlier this week -- we want to show this to you. The Gallup poll shows that in February, between February 4 and 6, about -- let's see, well about 48 percent of those polled said it was either very likely or somewhat likely that there might be a terrorist attack at the Winter Olympics.

We're talking with the governor of Utah, Mr. Mike Leavitt, who is joining us from Salt Lake City. Governor Leavitt, you just saw that poll there. It shows that people do have some concerns, about 48 percent saying that it's either somewhat or very likely that there might be an attack where you are right now.

Are you concerned at all that people didn't show up for that reason? Was there a smaller turnout at all because people were afraid?

LEAVITT: I'm confident there probably were people who made the decision not to. We all make decisions about the risks we will take. We drive to the mall or sometimes we don't because we're worried about an accident. We make decisions about what we eat.

I don't mean to make light of it. What I mean to say is that we believe this is a safe place. If there is a safe place anywhere, this will be it.

Terrorists depend on surprise. They thrive in circumstances where we don't know where they will strike. This is a defined event. It's in a defined place at a defined time. And we're able to protect against that.

Now, one of the worries that we always have, whether you're on the streets of New York or anywhere in America, would be the lone terrorist, that is to say someone who just has a point they want to make, that isn't working with a group or doesn't have any particular political agenda. Those people are out there.

And so we're working to do all we can to assure the safety of those who are here.

SNOW: Governor, was there ever talk about not holding the games?

LEAVITT: Never. In fact, on September 11, one of the most prominent memories I have is realizing that fate had fallen upon our state to be the first place where the world would come to heal and to gather and to reassert that civilized people believe in peace and courage and personal improvement, and that we would have the responsibility to assure that happened well. And we're ready for that.

SNOW: I want to take a phone call for you, Governor, from California.

Are you there, caller?

CALLER: Yes, I am.

SNOW: What's your question?

CALLER: Governor, you said a little bit ago that currently the condition that we're living under of this terrorist kind of situation, you called it -- it's the culture that we live under.

Do you believe that the events of September 11 have made our culture one that requires security constantly? Or do you believe that we're actually living under specific conditions that should pass after some period of time, that we can return to our more open, free society?

LEAVITT: I think we're living in a society that will remain free and will obviously value freedom, perhaps even more than we ever have before.

LEAVITT: It's hard to know now things will be two years from now. If we're as successful as I believe the president is resolved to be, perhaps we'll begin to see our lives return to the normality that we have become accustomed.

However, for now, we are in a condition that requires more security, and it's something we're all having to adjust to.

SNOW: Governor, let me turn the corner here. There's been a lot of talk about your state, a lot of focus on Utah, on the Mormon religion being based there.

Talk to be about what the Olympics mean to your state and to, particularly, to that religion that is so dominant in your state.

LEAVITT: Well, what a remarkable opportunity for our state to tell our story, for people to know us as we are. There are 12,000 members of the media here. Three and a half billion people witnessed the Games last night, gathered to share the snow-packed peaks of the Rocky Mountains and the red rock country, and to understand the warmth of our people and the nature of our culture.

One of the things that I'm pleased about is that people are getting to know us economically. We have a work force that is growing at nearly twice the national average. It's a tech-savvy, well- educated work force. People are having a chance to understand the affordability of our state and to see it for the recreation that blends with the economic vibrancy. So it's a profound and important point.

I don't think Utah will ever the same. It will be very much better as we move forward. And one of the things about the Olympics is that it requires that everything improve. The service at the restaurants has had to improve. Our law enforcement has become better. Our highways are better. Our railroads are better. The governor had to get better. The media has had to improve. We've all had to -- we've all had to stretch. And this has stretched us, but we're ready. And I think we're putting a gold-medal performance.

SNOW: There was, everyone I think remembers, there was a bit of a scandal about Salt Lake City. There was an investigation into whether the city had gone too far in obtaining -- the committee had gone too far in obtaining the Olympics. Is that behind you now?

LEAVITT: Gratefully, it is. One of the things I feel best about is that the entire culture of the Olympic movement was changed in a very positive way. What was happening didn't start in Salt Lake City, but it ended here. We were able, I think, to make a contribution to righting what had gotten off track. And as Jacques Rogge said, just some -- the nature of human beings got off track.

And we're now moving forward in the Olympic movement, I think, in a positive way.

SNOW: Governor, what does the rest of your day look like?

LEAVITT: Well, I'm busy, but having a great time. I think this is the kind of busyness I wish could go on forever.

SNOW: Any sporting events?

LEAVITT: We have a lot of guests from out of town...

SNOW: You don't get to go to any events?

LEAVITT: I'm going to, yes. I do intend to see just a little bit of everything.

SNOW: OK, great, Governor, thank you so much for joining us this morning. Governor Mike Leavitt of the state of Utah, we will all be watching your state and your city for the weeks to come now. Thanks so much.

LEAVITT: Kate, thank you.

SNOW: Is the Bush administration moving toward a go-it-alone approach in global matters? We're going to hear from two international policy experts when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SNOW: Cartoonists this week sharpened their pens on Enron, the war and the budget.

Kevin Sayers (ph) of the Charlotte Observer shows President Bush, hand on heart, waving his red, white and blue budget. The boy next to him recites, "I pledge allegiance to the budget of the United States of America and to the defense buildup for which it spends, one nation, underfunded, class divisible, with security and tax cuts for the rich."

Ed Stein of the Rocky Mountain News shows a search of what looks like Afghanistan caves. Says the soldier, "I'm afraid he's given us the slip." Replies a Congressman, "He can't run forever. Sooner or later, we're going to make Ken Lay testify."

And from the Greenville News in South Carolina, Roger Harville (ph) focuses on the axis of evil. "X marks the spot," reads the title, with Iraq's Saddam Hussein center stage.

President Bush, of course, lumped together Saddam Hussein with the leaders of Iran and North Korea in his State of the Union address.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: States like these and their terrorist allies constitute an axis of evil, aiming to threaten the peace of the world by seeking weapons of mass destruction. These regimes pose a grave and growing danger.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SNOW: The president has won mixed reviews for those comments. Does such talk leave U.S. allies behind? Did he promise more than even some members of his own administration think wise? Or is he right on target?

Joining us to talk about this, Frank Gaffney; he was an assistant secretary of defense during the Reagan administration and is now president of the Center for Security Policy. And Robert Hunter; he is a former U.S. ambassador to NATO.

Mr. Hunter, let me start with you. You feel pretty strongly about this. Should he not have used those three words, "axis of evil"?

ROBERT HUNTER, FORMER U.S AMBASSADOR TO NATO: I think what has happened is, he got people's attention and it had that effect.

What I worry about is, for a number of the European allies and others, who we are going to need, this can give them an excuse to do less than we need them to do.

SNOW: But doesn't he need to state quite clearly, you know, who the U.S. enemies are?

HUNTER: Well, I think it's a matter of stating who the enemies are, but it's also stating what we can do about it.

In this case, we want to keep Iraq from getting these weapons. We want to keep Iran and North Korea -- there are three very different problems. Lumping they will together, in the view of a lot of Europeans, was merely a way of getting in the way of creating a coherent strategy that they could support.

SNOW: You disagree with that, don't you?

FRANK GAFFNEY, FORMER ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE: I do. I think it's the essence of leadership. I think it was defining a coherent strategy. It was establishing for the American people and for the world what the second phase of what the president indicated at the outset was going to be a multiphase campaign, what it would entail and against whom.

SNOW: Why those three countries, though? I mean, Mr. Hunter says they don't necessarily go together. Why lump those three together?

GAFFNEY: Well, they do go together in the sense that they are, in fact, collaborating in important ways. Most especially North Korea has become the purveyor of ballistic missile and some weapons technology, frankly as are Russia and China, to both Iraq and Iran, certainly Iraq in the past and the future if its sanctions regime is ever lifted, and to Libya and to Syria and to Algeria and to Egypt and to Pakistan and others.

These are countries that we believe harbor terrorists, support the use of terror, and are engaged both at home -- and that's important -- both at home and abroad in activities that are really inimical to our interests.

The direct connection to September 11 may or may not be establishable, but the clear involvement in terror is unmistakable.

HUNTER: Now, that's nice talk -- and he may be right. And it's also true that we have to stop these three countries from getting weapons of mass destruction: nuclear weapons or weaponizable biologicals, to use a long phrase, which, in some ways, are even more threatening because they're easier to get.

The question is, how do you do it? Now, if we want do it alone, all by our lonesome, then we can go after all three together or we can do it separately. But I wonder first if the American people will support it, and I wonder also whether we're going to have the support we need from others.

The big problem, the short-term problem, the one you got to get first and deal with first is Iraq. Now, do you assassinate Saddam Hussein? Well, nobody has managed to do that. Do you work with the outsiders, the Iraqis? They have been ineffectual.

You have got to have people with you. You got to have ways of getting there. And I think we need to build a coherent strategy and not just say, "Hi, folks, here is what I'm going to do some day."

SNOW: What about that? You can't do this unilaterally, the U.S. can't do it.

GAFFNEY: Well, clearly, a coherent strategy is in order. I think the starting point is to say what we're trying to do.

I disagree with the idea that we're going to do exactly the same thing with respect to each of these countries.

GAFFNEY: I don't think, for example, that it makes sense for us, at the moment, to be contemplating a massive war against the North Koreans. It may make sense for us to be using military force, much as we did in Afghanistan, against Saddam Hussein. We should be working with the people in each of the three countries, but most especially Iran, to try to help them liberate themselves from their evil regime.

And that's the thing we've got going for us here. I believe, with American leadership, we will have help from outside, other countries, friends. But we most especially will have the help of the people in these countries who have at least as much desire as we do to see them liberated from these evil regimes.

SNOW: But go back to the help from our friends point, because, I mean, you watch the European press this week, if that's any indication of now people over there are feeling, they were not very happy with those comments. GAFFNEY: Look, we've got a bunch of socialist governments running most of our allies. And they're not happy, as a general rule, with American leadership.

The point is -- and I think Bob and I may agree about this -- when America has demonstrated a willingness, in fact a determination and has the capabilities to go it alone if it needs to, by and large it has friends helping it.

HUNTER: Well...

GAFFNEY: If to have...

HUNTER: If we have a real problem today, it's Iraq. But if we were to try to take on Iraq, Iran and North Korea, first, are you going to have people with us? And we probably aren't.

And it's not a bunch of socialists regimes.

GAFFNEY: It is a bunch of socialist regimes.

HUNTER: The opposition is saying exactly the same thing.

GAFFNEY: Some are.

HUNTER: And France has a conservative president in charge in foreign policy.

GAFFNEY: ... it's socialized.

HUNTER: But, look, for example, here is Iran, which has been moving in a particular direction. And a lot of folks say, are we going to have a rising up from below, or does this just cut off at the knees? At least the president of that country has been moving in the right direction and is immensely popular, as he tried to struggle with this supreme guardian, who is causing the problems.

The thing is how do we get smart about it? And just talking isn't going to be smart and give us a strategy to stop countries from getting weapons of mass destruction. That's what I want to do. I don't want to just feel good; I want results.

SNOW: Just this morning, indications out of Iran that they're moving even further. They're threatening now, if the U.S. comes after them, perhaps they will go after oil fields in the Persian Gulf region, to retaliate against any kind of U.S. movement.

So don't we -- shouldn't the president have been a little more careful about offending Iran?

GAFFNEY: I don't think so. I think the people we don't want to offend are the people are Iran.

This notion that there is really -- there's sort of good guys and bad guys in the leadership of Iran has been demonstrated to be wrong in the sense that, if there is in fact a moderate wing, it is either ineffectual because the theocratic authorities run the country, or it really isn't that different.

The people of Iran want all of them gone, and that's what we are increasingly seeing as they turn out in the streets by the thousands, commending the United States.

And I think the best thing the president did was indicate, contrary to some signals that others in his administration have been sending previously, we are not in favor of legitimating this government, trying to pretend it really is a country we can work with, especially as they're undermining us in Afghanistan. They continue.

Bob says we don't want them to get weapons of mass destruction. Iran has them.

HUNTER: Frank, let's...

GAFFNEY: These others do as well, and we shouldn't let them get to the point where they can use them against us.

HUNTER: This is all very nice emotional rhetoric, but how do you...

GAFFNEY: It's not -- this is...

(CROSSTALK)

GAFFNEY: This is facts.

HUNTER: How do you make it happen?

The idea, and it's very current now, that maybe there should be a revolution in Iran. You've got to think a minute. We helped be engaged in a revolution in Iran in 1979. We didn't like the shah. Look what we got for 22 years. Look what we got in various places.

One thing we need to do if we're going to have a strategy in this region -- and I agree with you, we need a strategy; and we don't want these people to get these weapons, we're going to stop them, OK, we've got to stop them -- is to have a strategy that has a chance of working and where we could live with the consequences.

You know, we supported the Taliban at one point. Look at what the consequences were. We supported Saddam Hussein in his war against Iran. Look at what the consequences were.

We've got to think about it. We can't just wish our way into a newer world.

SNOW: We are going to talk about it some more in just a minute. We need to take a quick commercial break.

When we return, we'll have more with our guests, plus we will take your phone calls and e-mails. Send them to us.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: When it is a matter of principle, and when the multilateral community does not agree with us, we do not shrink from doing that which we think is right, which is in our interest, even if some of our friends disagree with us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SNOW: Secretary of State Colin Powell signaling friends and foes that whether it's the axis of evil or other policy objectives, the Bush team is willing to go it alone.

We're talking to Mr. Hunter and Mr. Gaffney, a lively conversation this morning about that "axis of evil" statement.

You heard the secretary there, it almost seemed like he was sort of explaining what the president had said or defending, maybe, what the president had said in the State of the Union.

Do you think he was caught -- that the State Department was caught off guard by those comments, "axis of evil"?

GAFFNEY: First, I totally agree with Colin Powell. He was stating a general proposition for the United States, which is one reason we are respected and so successful in the world: We try to do things with others, but if it's a matter of principle and our interests -- I wish he'd said that too -- we'll go it alone.

Here I think it's very important not to lose sight that for the average American, there is a problem, yes, about Iraq and Iran and others. But we're still talking about Al Qaeda, we're still talking about Osama bin Laden. We're still talking about whether there is going to be more terrorism here.

And that, we have to make thing one. And that starts with help from allies and others on intelligence, on police work, on border control, on drying up the cells that may be somewhere. And let's not get distracted by phase two until we get phase one done, because that's our security.

SNOW: I've read that he was caught off guard. I've read that some -- or at least some at State Department were caught -- you know, they didn't know that the president was going to make such a strong statement in his State of the Union, and they were a little worried about it.

HUNTER: It doesn't surprise me. I don't know that that was true, but it doesn't surprise me that, certainly, people who wouldn't have seen the speech in advance at State and in embassies around the world would probably have been horrified by this, because, as Bob knows very well from his days ambassadoring, your job is to try to make nice with people.

SNOW: Right. But you've written that they shouldn't... GAFFNEY: No, no, no. The job is to succeed for the United States. That means building trust and credibility.

HUNTER: And to the extent you can, it means making nice with people so that they want to help us, they want do what we want them do and so on.

SNOW: You've written that they shouldn't back way from that statement.

HUNTER: Absolutely. And I don't think the president intends to back away. I think there has been some fuzzing of what the president meant to say by some of the subordinates.

But I think what's important here, both for the American people and for our allies, and most especially for our enemies, to understand clearly that the president has a vision of what the problem is here. And it is not simply Al Qaeda or Osama bin Laden. It is a complex that involves both these organizations and cells that are associated loosely or directly with them and the states that sponsor them.

GAFFNEY: Look...

SNOW: We only have 30 more seconds.

GAFFNEY: I agree with vision. Now I want to see a strategy and a commitment and working with the other...

HUNTER: That's not in dispute here. I'm in favor of a strategy.

GAFFNEY: Yes, but we don't have it yet, and we've got to get it first.

HUNTER: But you have to set the goal first.

GAFFNEY: You don't want to scare everybody else off you're going to need.

HUNTER: No, you want to tell them what you're about.

GAFFNEY: Nice sound bite, poor strategy.

SNOW: OK.

HUNTER: Good sound bite and good strategy.

(LAUGHTER)

SNOW: We're going to leave it at that. We'll have you back, we'll continue the discussion. Thank you very much.

Our thanks to Mr. Hunter and Mr. Gaffney for being here on a Saturday morning. Thanks.

When we return, my turn. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SNOW: I spent Thursday watching Enron's former CEO, Jeffrey Skilling, in the hot seat.

Members of Congress didn't like his "I don't recall" attitude very much. They told me they thought he was arrogant, a real know-it- all.

But everyone in the room paused when Skilling was asked about his best friend, former Enron vice chairman Cliff Baxter. Skilling said Baxter had come over to his house the week before he committed suicide last month.

Baxter said he was heartbroken. He told Skilling his reputation was ruined, and he compared what he was feeling to being wrongly accused of being called a child molester.

Enron probably collapsed because people got greedy; maybe it was even criminal. But Skilling reminded us that sometimes the appearance of scandal can be even more powerful than the facts.

Thank you for joining us today. I am Kate Snow in Washington.

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