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Jimmy Carter Goes to Cuba
Aired May 11, 2002 - 10:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIMMY CARTER, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: To let the Cuban people know the advantages of freedom.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JONATHAN KARL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Jimmy Carter sets off a furious debate by becoming the first U.S. president, current or former, to visit Castro's Cuba. He'll address the Cuban people, its leaders and dissidents about why such close neighbors are so far apart.
Fidel Castro has been a thorn under the saddle of U.S. presidents for decades. We will talk to members of Congress fiercely divided about what the U.S. should do about Castro, trade, tourism, and new alarms about terrorism. We will interview top U.S. diplomat in Havana, Vicki Huddleston, in charge of the U.S. interest section. What's at stake for the Carter visit? What lies ahead for the U.S. policy, and what's the fallout for U.S. politics?
All ahead, on CNN's SATURDAY EDITION.
Good morning, California, the rest of the West and to all our viewers in North America. I'm Jonathan Karl in Washington.
KATE SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And I'm Kate Snow in Havana, Cuba. A special CNN SATURDAY EDITION today, as we broadcast from here in Cuba, spending the next hour talking about the visit of former President Jimmy Carter, his trip and the possible consequences. I'll be back here in just a moment with more on Cuba, but first we go back to Jonathan in Washington.
KARL: And as usual, we want to hear from you. Our address is saturday.edition@cnn.com. Our guests and the president's radio address straight ahead, but first a news alert.
(NEWSBREAK)
KARL: We are just a couple minutes away from the president's radio address, but first, joining Kate Snow and I are two Republican members of the International Relations Committee in the House. They have widely different views on Cuba policy. In Phoenix, Arizona, Congressman Jeff Flake. He is a member of the Congressional Cuba Working Group. And in Miami is Congresswoman Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, a staunch supporter of the U.S. embargo against Cuba. Welcome to both of you.
And Congressman Flake, I want to start right with you. We had some explosive allegations from the State Department this week. Undersecretary John Bolton said that Cuba has been developing biological weapons and possibly exporting some technology to places like Libya. So what I'm wondering, does this give you some second thoughts about your position, which is the U.S. should lift the embargo on Cuba?
REP. JEFF FLAKE (R-AZ), INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS COMMITTEE: Not at all. We have always known that Castro is a bad actor. This isn't news at all. And I wouldn't believe a thing he says. He said this morning we are not doing anything. I wouldn't believe him at all.
That doesn't change the fact that our policy there hasn't done a thing to change the situation. It has been 43 years now that we have had a policy of isolation, and it has done absolutely nothing, because Castro is still firmly in charge. So we need to change it. We need to allow Americans, not just Jimmy Carter but ordinary Americans to travel to Cuba and spread Western culture and values there.
KARL: Congresswoman, what was your take on Bolton's accusations?
REP. ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN (R-FL), INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS COMMITTEE: Well, Jeff is a good friend and I usually agree with him on many things, but I definitely do not agree with him on that. We've got to remember that for 42 years every other nation in the world has been trading with Fidel Castro and Castro has not changed one iota. And there is not one single U.S. product that is exclusively made in the U.S. that Cuban people have not had access to. So it is that Castro embargo on the Cuban people that is hurting the Cubans, not the U.S. embargo on Castro.
And this latest development, that Castro has the capability of biological warfare, chemical warfare against the United States reminds us that Fidel Castro poses a national security threat, and Cuba should belong on the state-sponsored list of terrorism. In fact, Castro in May of last year said we can bring America to its knees. He's a sworn enemy of our country.
KARL: Well, congresswoman, I want -- and we only have a few seconds before the president's radio address -- but one thing I want to pick up on when we come back is Americans can travel to places like North Korea, Iran, Libya. I mean, Americans could even travel to Afghanistan when the Taliban was in power...
ROS-LEHTINEN: And how has that helped the people of Libya, Iran and Afghanistan?
(CROSSTALK)
ROS-LEHTINEN: How are they any closer to freedom?
KARL: ... right there when we come back from the president's radio address.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Good morning. Next week, the United States House of Representatives is scheduled to debate a welfare reform plan that will touch the lives of millions of Americans. The last time Congress reformed welfare in 1996, it put millions of Americans on the path to better lives. Because of work requirements and time limited benefits, welfare case loads have dropped by more than half. Today, 5.4 million fewer people live in poverty, including 2.8 million fewer children, than in 1996.
Yet the real success of welfare reform is not found in the number of case loads that have been cut, but in the number of lives that have been changed. I have traveled all across our nation and have met people whose lives have been improved because of welfare reform. I have heard inspiring stories of hope and dignity and hard work and personal achievement. Yet there are still millions of Americans trapped in dependence without jobs and the dignity they bring.
And now Congress must take the next necessary steps in welfare reform. Compassionate welfare reform should encourage strong families. Strong marriages and stable families good for children. So stable families should be a central aim of welfare policy.
Under my plan, up to $300 million per year will be available to states to support good, private and public programs that counsel willing couples on building a healthy, respectful marriage. Compassionate welfare reform must allow states greater flexibility in spending welfare money. Today, confusing and conflicting regulations are keeping people from getting help. My proposal would give states the freedom to redesign how federal programs operate in their states. This will allow states to be more innovative in providing better job training, housing, and nutrition programs, and better child care services to low income families.
Most of all, passionate welfare reform must encourage more and more Americans to find the independence of a job. Today, states on average must require work of only 5 percent of adults getting welfare. I am proposing that every state be required, within five years, to have 70 percent of welfare recipients working, or being trained to work at at least 40 hours a week.
These work requirements must be applied carefully and compassionately, because many on welfare need new skills. My plan allows states to combine work with up to two days each week of education and job training. Our proposal allows for three months and full time drug rehabilitation or job training, and adolescents mothers can meet their work requirements by attending high school. A work requirement is not a penalty. It is the pathway to independence and self-respect.
For former welfare recipients, this path has led to a new and better life. When I was in North Carolina earlier this year, I met Ella Currents (ph), a mother of four who was on welfare for seven years. She knew change would be difficult, but she also knew change was best. Ella (ph) began participating in the state's Work First program. She has been working for the last five years, and she put her life in order. Ella (ph) says you can do anything you want to do if you put your mind to it. This is the spirit and confidence encouraged by work.
Everyone in America benefits from compassionate welfare reform. Former welfare recipients gain new hope and know the independence and dignity of an honest day's work. As our recovery continues, business will need more motivated and trained workers. Good welfare reform laws can break dependency and help the American economy.
My administration has worked closely with Congress in writing the new welfare legislation. It's an excellent bill that will provide hope and promise, dignity and opportunity to millions of Americans. I urge the House to pass it, and the Senate to then act on it.
Thank you for listening.
KARL: All right. The president's radio address, and we are with Kate Snow in Cuba. We've got our two guests, two Republicans with very different views on Cuba -- Republicans Ileana Ros-Lehtinen from Florida and Jeff Flake from Arizona. We're going to be back with both of you in just a few minutes, but first down to Cuba with my good friend and colleague Kate Snow -- Kate.
SNOW: And from here in Havana, Jon, from here in Havana, we will be back in a moment. We have also got an important U.S. official standing by. She is the top diplomat here in Havana. We will bring you that in just a few moments just after this break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): It is a very good visit. I believe in him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): Jimmy Carter is a very good friend of Cuba and Fidel.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SNOW: People here in Havana on the streets talking about the visit of President Jimmy Carter. He is going to arrive here tomorrow in Havana. We're talking about the state of U.S.-Cuban relation, and about that visits.
I want to go to Congresswoman Ros-Lehtinen about what you just heard, because I have been down on the streets of Havana, congresswoman, for the last few days, and everyone that I have talked to have said essentially what you just heard, that this is the moment, that this is a visit that they think is important, they think it can open things up between the U.S. and Cuba. I know you have been opposed to this visit from Jimmy Carter. So why not let him come, though, and allow an opening, the beginning of a first step, if that is what the Cuban people want?
ROS-LEHTINEN: Well, two thoughts on that. First of all, for you to think that you can actually interview people in Cuba and that people can tell you the truth -- that's the same thing that happened in Nicaragua when they did a poll and they predicted that Daniel Ortega and the Sandinista government would win in Nicaragua when he was soundly defeated. Sometimes, people don't understand that there is a totalitarian communist dictatorship in Cuba, and the people are not free to speak their minds. So be careful about your so-called free interviews. This is a police state where everyone's thoughts are controlled.
SNOW: Well, these are people off camera too.
ROS-LEHTINEN: OK. Oh, sure, yeah. I'm sure. Just whisper it in my ear; it's just between you and me.
Number two, it's much ado about nothing. Jimmy Carter's trip is a wonderful thing to talk about human rights, and freedom, and democracy, but do we really think that Fidel Castro hasn't heard these messages before? Is he really going to say, "oh, gee, elections! I should have thought of that! Of course I'll have them tomorrow!" Fidel Castro himself has said he will not have elections, he will not have multi-party systems. Do you know there are only a few sanctioned newspapers? That it is a crime to have an independent library in your home? You can't have the U.S. Bill of Rights.
The true political dissidents are in jail, and we would like Jimmy Carter to, just like Ronald Reagan said, "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down your wall." We would like Jimmy Carter to say, "Mr. Castro, let me inside those jails."
I wish that he would do that. Instead, he will meet with the good housekeeping seal of approval dissidents and just talk against U.S. policy in Cuba.
SNOW: Sorry, let me get one question in quickly to Congressman Flake. We went to a peso bakery the other day. This is a bakery where you can only buy things with Cuban pesos or with a ration card. They have these cards that get them food. Everyone was getting one roll day, congressman. That's it; that's all they get with their ration card. What's to say that if you open things up and you allow trade between the U.S. and Cuba that suddenly the food will get to the people? How do you guarantee that?
FLAKE: Well, it has got to be better than the situation now; it's an awful situation now. I don't know how the congresswoman can just cavalierly dismiss every statement made by every Cuban at any time.
The truth is, the problem we have there is the only voice they hear is Castro's. That's why we need a lift the travel ban and allow anybody who wants to go there to go there. It's just crazy for us to say to Americans, you have no right go to Cuba. I think every American ought to have the right to see what a mess that man has made of that island, and to deny them that is simply wrong.
KARL: Well, I want to pick up on that thought of this travel ban to Cuba and get back to where we were before the president's radio address. Congresswoman Ros-Lehtinen, look, we've got a situation, again, can we at least acknowledge here with the U.S. policy when you can travel freely to a place like North Korea, or Iran, two of the president's three axis of evil countries, when you can travel freely there but you can't travel freely to Cuba, can we at least acknowledge that the policy itself doesn't make any sense?
ROS-LEHTINEN: Well, first of all, we don't have a foreign policy that should be a one-size-fits-all. We have a policy with China that is different than the policy on Cuba. We have a policy on North Korea that's different than the policy for...
KARL: But how can we have a ban in Cuba but not have a ban to North Korea?
ROS-LEHTINEN: Because first of all, first of all, it's 90 miles away from our shore. It's an island that is completely isolated where Castro controls everything. And for people to think that when you travel to Cuba that you are bringing the Cuban people closer to democracy, that's like believing in Santa Claus and in the Easter Bunny. We want to think that if people would just hear us, that Castro would open up Cuba, that we would have free elections.
Castro is never going to change. Are we ever going to understand that the man really is a dictator and that he throws people in jail if you don't believe in his communist system? That it's mandated that you form part of the communist government? Aren't we ever going to believe that people who are literally dying to come to the United States, are young people who have only known his communist system of government -- they don't buy his doctrine and they want to come to the United States.
And just yesterday, over 11,000 brave people signed petitions and turned it into the regime, the Varela Project, which called for freedom, which called for free elections. Why don't we hear the voices of those people who simply want to live in freedom?
KARL: Congressman Flake, I'd like you to jump in. I think one good point here is about Carter's visit. I mean, do you really expect Carter to do anything serious in terms of pressing the human rights story, or is this going to be one big propaganda victory, this trip, for Fidel Castro?
FLAKE: Well, it's tough to teach old dog new tricks, and Castro is a pretty old dog. So I don't think president -- former President Carter is going to make any progress there. But it is important that he meets with political prisoners, if he can, and with dissidents, and to get around and to talk to the Cuban people.
Every American ought to have that right. We ought to all do that. And believe me, the Cubans are dying for that to happen. And for us to say, hey, you can travel to North Korea, you can travel to China, but don't travel to Cuba is simply wrong, and it's a policy that has to change. So I wish...
SNOW: Congressman, to pick up...
FLAKE: Yes.
SNOW: I'm sorry, congressman, I didn't mean to interrupt. Just to pick up on the point you were just making to the congresswoman. Again, I have been out, I have been traveling around here, and I have talked now off camera, away from the cameras, very privately, with some people in the tourist industry. These are people who give out towels -- two of them give out towels at a resort...
ROS-LEHTINEN: And those are coveted jobs.
SNOW: ... and they tourism -- let me just finish -- they say tourism is their only hope. They say having Americans come in here, building their economy is what they really want. So why deny them that? Why not let Americans travel here?
ROS-LEHTINEN: Well, let me tell you, the one who denies them all of this is Fidel Castro. Let's not be part of what Jeane Kirkpatrick calls the "blame America first" crowd. The problem is Fidel Castro; it is not the U.S. policy that is keeping Cuban people enslaved.
What happens is that these investors in these wonderful hotels, where you get to stay at and have a nice junket on the backs of the poverty of the Cuban people, that investor pays the Cuban regime in dollars. It is illegal for that investor to pay the Cuban worker in dollars. The investor pays the regime in dollars, and then Castro pays that worker in worthless pesos. So what you are participating in is a form of tourist apartheid. Why was apartheid wrong in South Africa and why is it right in Cuba?
FLAKE: With all due respect, that's beside the point.
ROS-LEHTINEN: ... because it's a nice vacation.
SNOW: Congressman Flake, last word, last word to Congressman Flake.
FLAKE: Well, that's beside the point. We are denying Americans the freedom to go there, and I think Fidel Castro frankly laughs himself to sleep every night knowing that he is forcing the greatest country in the world to adopt some of the same bad habits as his own banana republic. It's crazy.
KARL: All right. Well, you know, we are not going to solve this right here. Castro has been around for 43 years. But we do want to thank our guests for a very vigorous debate. Congressman Jeff Flake out there in Arizona, Congresswoman Ros-Lehtinen down in Miami.
ROS-LEHTINEN: I'll change you yet, Jeff. I'm not giving up on Jeff. I'll win him over to freedom and democracy.
KARL: We'll be following the debate. Thank you both very much.
And coming up, we're going to be back in Havana with Kate Snow. She will talk to the senior U.S. official in Havana about U.S. policy and the potential impact of Jimmy Carter's visit.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SNOW: Are those the winds of change in Cuba and for the U.S. in Cuba?
I spent all day Thursday in Veradero (ph), down on the beach that you just saw there, looking into the tourism scene here. We talked to Canadians, to French people, the Spaniards, to British tourists, but not a single American there on the beach. Why? Because of course it's not legal for Americans to come to Cuba unless they have a special visa. Most Americans can't travel here, but there are some who come illegally. And if the ban were lifted by Washington, it's estimated 1 million Americans might come here in the first year alone.
Joining me now to talk about that and some of the other issues facing the relationship between the U.S. and Cuba is Vicki Huddleston. She is the top U.S. diplomat here in Cuba, essentially the head of the U.S. Interests Section in Cuba, which is essentially an embassy, but we don't call it that.
Explain what you do here. What's your role?
VICKI HUDDLESTON, HEAD OF U.S. INTERESTS SECTION IN CUBA: My role is to represent the United States government to the Cuban government and to the Cuban people. We do a lot of work, as I think you've heard, on outreach. We have a wonderful outreach program in which we're distributing books and information and even radios around the island.
SNOW: Yes, I want to talk about that in just a moment.
HUDDLESTON: Well, it's very good...
SNOW: President Carter comes tomorrow. I know you're going to have a meeting with him. Will you, as a representative of the Bush administration, tell him to deliver some kind of message to Fidel Castro?
HUDDLESTON: What I'll tell President Carter is yesterday the most amazing thing happened in Cuba. The Cuban people spoke, perhaps for the first time. I myself call it the first day in a peaceful transition to democracy.
What happened is a petition with 10,000 names on it...
SNOW: We actually have some video of that that I think we can roll here to show you. CNN was one of the only cameras that was there as they delivered this petition.
HUDDLESTON: Isn't that amazing? Isn't that amazing? Ten thousand people have put their signatures on a petition, overcome their fear, to ask this government to allow a petition, a referendum, a vote on a free Cuba, on democracy in Cuba.
SNOW: A vote which essentially would ask the Cuban people if they want more rights and if they want free elections and that sort of thing. HUDDLESTON: Specifically, it would ask for freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, release of political prisoners, private enterprise and a process to a democratic system.
SNOW: The Cuban government calls it a subversive ploy organized by Washington, D.C.
HUDDLESTON: The Cuban government uses propaganda all of the time. They used it yesterday in replying to Undersecretary Bolton. This is not the United States government. This is the Cuban people overcoming their fear, expressing their frustrations -- we just want the right to have a little space to have some freedom.
SNOW: Let me talk to you really quickly about this headline in the paper this morning. Take a look at the Cuban headline this morning "Granma," this is their local paper here. It says, "The lies of Washington are crumbling before the demolishing truth of Cuba," referring to what you just mentioned, President Castro last night knocking down -- not President Castro, Fidel Castro, the leader -- knocking down what President Bush essentially and John Bolton, the undersecretary of state, have accused this country of, which is the ability to develop biological weapons.
He says you don't have a shred of proof that they're developing biological weapons.
HUDDLESTON: Well, what the undersecretary has said is that Cuba should comply with its international obligations.
But here is the amazing thing. This newspaper, "Granma," this newspaper and others like it are the only newspapers that the Cuban people see. They don't have access to the International Herald Tribune. They don't have access to the New York Times or even Spanish-language newspapers. They're not seeing CNN or NBC or ABC or CBS.
The Cuban people are hearing only what Fidel Castro says, because he is intent on winning the battle of ideas. That's what he calls it. But he is losing the battle of ideas, because you can't keep people from having freedom and not having information.
SNOW: OK, we're going to pick it up in just a moment. We're going to take a quick break. I'm going to toss it back to my colleague, Jonathan Karl, in Washington -- Jon.
KARL: All right, Kate.
And we will have more with Kate Snow down in Havana and a news alert after this very short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KARL: An important source of information about the news of the day, the terrorism war and the Carter trip, as well as transcripts of Saturday Edition, can be found online at cnn.com, or AOL keyword CNN. Kate and I will be back in just a moment with Vicki Huddleston, the top diplomat for the United States in Havana, and we'll have a roundtable of guests who have their own thoughts about the future of Castro and the Cuban people.
But first, Miles O'Brien, in Atlanta has a news alert.
(NEWSBREAK)
SNOW: We're continuing our conversation here with the top U.S. diplomat in this country. Vicki Huddleston joins us very kindly here this morning.
Ambassador, we were talking about President Carter and his visit here. He's going to meet with some dissidents. He's also going to spend a lot of time with the Cuban government. He's going to visit schools, medical centers and that sort of thing.
What do you think he can achieve with this visit?
HUDDLESTON: Well, let me give you the answer that I've been given my human rights activist and independent librarians throughout Cuba. I recently took a trip to the center of Cuba and to eastern Cuba. I went to Santiago, I went to Holguin, I went to...
SNOW: Not a short drive. It's actually quite a bit away.
HUDDLESTON: It took seven days to do the trip. When I talked to them, the Cuban people had not heard about the trip, but information had seeped back into the country about President Carter's trip, to the human rights activists and to the dissidents.
One religious leader in Camaguey said to me, "What I want President Carter to do is ask the government to allow my church to grow crops so that we can make meals and provide those meals to the elderly people whose pensions are insufficient for them to have enough to eat."
Then I talked to a group who's supporting a blind activist, who is an independent journalist, who was beaten up when he protected a member of his group, and he's now in jail. They're hoping that President Carter is going to ask for his release.
An independent librarian in Santiago de Cuva (ph) who used to fight for the revolution -- she was with Franc Piez (ph) -- has opened her home and her 1,300 books to the children and the people in her neighborhood.
SNOW: This is becoming rather common in Cuba...
HUDDLESTON: All she wants...
SNOW: ... these independent libraries out of people's houses.
HUDDLESTON: They're growing, their blooming, they're all over the country. They took advantage of Fidel Castro saying there are no banned books. Well, we have learned that there are many banned books, but they are courageously trying to make these available to a very literate population, so they have some access to knowledge of their profession, to knowledge of what's going on in the world.
SNOW: You're putting a pretty high bar, as far as expectations go, at least -- that's what I've gathered from everyone I've talked to. The expectations are pretty high for this trip.
How do you guarantee that the very presence of Carter makes change or actually opens something?
HUDDLESTON: Well, there's no way you can do that. Obviously, the Cuban government is use this trip as much as it can to its advantage.
SNOW: Right. And that's the point Congresswoman Ros-Lehtinen was making. She says, "Why let him come, because all you're doing is playing into Castro's hands?"
HUDDLESTON: But the government of the United States has made that decision. He fits into the categories that allow travel to Cuba. And of course, I, as a representative of the United States government in Cuba, am going to do everything I can to facilitate that visit, to assist our former president and to make the visit as good as possible.
I know the president's stature as a human rights person, as somebody who has made democracy the hallmark of his administration. I hope -- it may not happen now, but I hope over time, he will help to lift the veil of silence that has covered the Cuban people, to get information...
SNOW: Speaking of information and silence, I want to quickly ask you about what's in your hand here. Raise it up a little bit. You've got this radio with you. You have gotten a lot of attention here in Cuba for distributing these radios, shortwave radios, all over the country when you travel. I understand you hand these out to people. And the Cuban government doesn't like it very much. They say you're interfering.
HUDDLESTON: They don't like it all. But this is technology over 100 years old. Radios are freely for sale in Cuba. The Cuban government counts on the fact that people don't have the money to buy a radio. The Cuban government has been untruthful about these radios.
It says that they're just turned to Radio Marti. This is not true. You can move the dial around and listen to Radio Havana Libre or you can listen to Radio Netherlands or you can listen to Radio Marti.
SNOW: It's a shortwave radio.
HUDDLESTON: What the Cuban government doesn't like the choice the people have to listen to anything this little radio can pick up. This is something we do all over the world. We distribute information to try to empower people. We would like to see the Cuban people empowered. KARL: Vicki Huddleston, it's Jon Karl in Washington. If I could just ask one quick question before we run out of time.
Last week the Cubans released -- the Cuban government released Vladimiro Roca, who was somebody who had been in prison for five years merely for distributing a political pamphlet. Some people up here, a lot of people up here, thought this was a PR effort in light of Jimmy Carter's trip down there.
But my question to you is, what do we know now about the current status of political prisoners in Cuba, how many true political prisoners there are in Castro's jails?
HUDDLESTON: Well, Jon, first of all, let me say something about Vladimiro. What an amazing man. He walked out of prison and he said, "What the Cuban government needs to do is one word, tolerance -- tolerance for dissidents, tolerance for differences in the Cuban population." He's an amazing man.
We think they are probably about 250 to 300 political prisoners in Cuba. There are also many, many, many people in Cuban jails for economic crimes.
HUDDLESTON: I ran into three girls. They were visiting their brother who had visited -- who was in a prison out in the provinces of Cuba. Their brother was in prison for 27 years for killing a pig.
So it would be nice also to address the issue of economic crime in Cuba and the kind of sentences people are receiving.
KARL: Well, we can imagine that is a subject that we can at least hope Jimmy Carter will be bringing up on his trip down there in Cuba.
And yes, what a story for Vladimiro Roca to spend five years in prison and come out, on the very day he's finally released, to repeat some of his criticism that landed him in jail in the first place.
Thank you so much, Vicki Huddleston.
Thanks, Kate Snow in Havana.
HUDDLESTON: Thank you.
KARL: We need to take a quick break. When we come back, is former President Jimmy Carter's visit to Cuba the opening for a new era in U.S.-Cuban relations? We'll get several perspectives when CNN's Saturday Edition from Washington and Havana continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KARL: Editorial cartoonists were down on the farm, the $190 billion farm bill.
Nick Anderson (ph) of the Louisville Kentucky Courier Journal showed Congress as the Jolly Green Giant, tossing out a cloud of greenbacks, with the farmer running for his life.
A different take from Mike Thompson of the Detroit Free Press. His congressman says, "Manure is an excellent fertilizer." He's pouring out a bag labeled "congressional farm bill," and the crop is votes.
Randy Bish (ph) of the Pittsburgh Tribune Review has Fidel Castro screaming "Out of my kitchen," to an Uncle Sam who is peaking in the door. Pans are steaming on the stove, and he's holding a booked labeled "Cooking with biological weapons."
And Bruce Beady (ph) of the Daytona News Journal shows Iraqi President Saddam Hussein answering his phone. The caller says, "I wouldn't worry too much about being ousted by the Americans if I were you." "Who is this," asks Saddam. The answer, "It's me, Fidel."
Fidel Castro has indeed been a survivor, despite the 41-year-old U.S. embargo and the collapse of his government's main benefactor, the Soviet Union. He shows no sign of relinquishing power.
I'm joined again by my colleague Kate Snow in Havana. And also to with us to talk about the future of U.S.-Cuban relations, with or without Castro, are three guests: in Miami, Alfredo Duran. He participated in the failed 1961 Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba and now heads the Cuban Committee for Democracy, which supports normalizing U.S. relations with Cuba. Also in Miami is Juan Tamayo, foreign correspondent for the Miami Herald, who has covered extensively Cuba. And here in Washington, Julia Sweig. She is a senior fellow with the Council on Foreign Relations and the author of a new book called "Inside the Cuban Revolution."
Juan Tamayo, I'd like to start with you. You've done some fascinating reporting on Cuba, and one thing that caught my eye in some of your recent reports is speculation about Castro's health. He is 76 years old. What do we know about the state of his health?
JUAN TAMAYO, MIAMI HERALD: Well, we know that he is 76 years old, which means that he has the kind of normal ails, ailments of anyone of that age.
The reports are that he seems to be generally healthy, although he has begun to sort of lose his place in some of the speeches that he gives. Castro is famous for his long speeches, his amazing memory for details. And he still has some of that, although some evidence in recent months that he's beginning to sort of have slight mental lapses.
That's not a reflection on his physical health. And I think everyone can bet that he probably has the best health coverage of anyone in the region.
KARL: Yes. Health care, when it comes to Castro, is probably not as much of an issue in Cuba as it is for the rest of the Cuban people.
Alfredo Duran, I'd like to ask you -- I've seen you talk about the significance of this trip, of Jimmy Carter going to Cuba, the first U.S. president, current or former, to visit the island since Castro took over.
What do you think this is going to accomplish?
ALFREDO DURAN, CUBAN COMMITTEE FOR DEMOCRACY: I think it's a great trip, and I think that the Cuban people are expecting a great deal out of it.
President Carter is a man of principle. President Carter is a man of integrity. He formulated what has become a cornerstone of U.S. foreign policy, which is human rights.
He's going to be one of the few leaders of the world who is going to address the Cuban people on television directly. And he's going to do it from the Ala Magna (ph) of the University of Havana, which is the classroom, the Magna (ph) classroom where, by the way, Father Varela is buried. So I can conceive that very much he's going to integrate a little bit of what Father Varela stood for, which is basically Cuban independence and Cuban national sovereignty and nationalism.
He will probably speak about normalizing relationship between the United States and Cuba and normalizing relations between the Cuban government and its own people.
KARL: OK, but Julia, this is not exactly -- Carter going to Cuba is not Nixon going to China.
JULIA SWEIG, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: It can't possibly be so, and especially in the political climate in Washington today. I think Alfredo is correct about what his trip symbolizes, but I don't think it's going to yield any concrete measures in the bilateral dynamic that we're currently living through.
However, it will be a very important step, marking the continued erosion of the old sense that the embargo made sense. We had the pope's visit. We had the Elian phenomenon. We had the Buena Vista Social Club phenomenon. And Jimmy Carter's trip is one more very important symbolic move that will shift, continue to shift, elite opinion in the United States and also public opinion, and of course, extremely important from the Cuban people's perspective with the issues he will raise.
SWEIG: Just as the pope did, President Carter will prompt a debate inside of Cuba. And I think that Fidel Castro is well aware exactly of its effect it will have.
KARL: And it was pretty remarkable. We saw the video of those petitions being brought into the government of Cuba. That's something you don't usually hear happening in Cuba.
But, Juan Tamayo, I want to ask you, Carter's trip has been kind of -- there's been this prelude to it here. The State Department has come out and said -- you know, John Bolton has said that Castro is manufacturing, beginning to manufacture biological weapons. Did that allegation coming from the State Department surprise you? Have you seen any evidence of that kind of activity?
TAMAYO: No, it came as no surprise. I mean, the allegation has been around for at least five, six, if not more, years.
In fact, there were two allegations, just to be technical about it. One was that Castro has been selling biotechnology know-how to countries that are potentially dangerous, such as Iran. Cuba has itself admitted that it has announced those kinds of deals with the Iranian government, to provide them with the know-how to manufacture medicines that, in fact, can be used to manufacture something else. So I don't think there is any debate on that part.
The more important part is that Cuba has what Bolton called a "limited capability" to produce biological warfare agents. Cuba has long had a very active, a very advanced, a very good biotechnology industry.
The charges or the allegations or the rumors that some of that knowledge was being used to develop low quantities or low levels of biological warfare agents has been around for some time. I think it's a matter of whether you see the glass half full or half empty. You either believe what you hear or you don't.
KARL: OK, we need to take a quick break. Obviously, a lot more to talk about. We'll be back in just a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KARL: All right, the day before the first visit of a president, current or former, to Cuba since Castro took over. We are here with our Cuban roundtable, and we have Kate Snow in Havana.
Kate, I wanted to get a question to you. You've had a chance to spend a few days down there. And we all know about what is wrong with Cuba, and we know about the dire economic situation down there and the political repression. But you've been doing some work about what is actually going on right in Cuba right now, which might sometimes be hard to find, but what have you found?
SNOW: Well, we've been looking at a few things that, I mean, if you ask Cubans, and if you ask the government particularly, they'll point to these things as their big successes.
Yesterday I spent a lot of time at a sports school where they train young people, mostly teenagers, sort of late teens, and they train them for everything from softball to archery to baseball to basketball, all kinds of sports. And the interesting thing is that they catch these kids when they're so young and they put them in a system unlike anything that exists in the United States, a very regimented system, but it trains them all the way through. They're still getting school and classwork, but then they're also getting this incredible training. And it leads to Cuba, a country of just, you know -- a small island, winning all kinds of medals at every Olympic Games. They sometimes come in eighth or ninth even in the Olympic medal count.
The other thing we were looking at is the health care system and how every Cuban has a family doctor. You cannot go without health care here because there's a system set up, a safety net, where, if you live in a neighborhood, you're covered by somebody. There's a doctor in your neighborhood who's your family doctor.
Some of the things we've been looking at here, Jon.
KARL: Well, Julia, in your experience covering Cuba, writing about Cuba, I mean, how does Castro deal with foreign journalists coming down there? I mean, is -- are our reporters getting kind of led around in a way, I mean, steered toward the successes and, you know, try to steer away from some of the more -- the dark sides of Castro's Cuba?
SWEIG: Yes and no. I think it's different in each case. I mean, in my experience, I've seen journalists who have reported on human rights abuses, who have reported on political prisoners, who have reported on the dark side. But of course this is a state media operation, and it's a government which is very acutely aware of wanting to highlight what it has that's positive.
It's interesting, though, because one of the large stories that hasn't been covered by journalists, if I can, given the opportunity to say this, is the kinds of economic transitions that have taken place on the island since the fall of the Soviet bloc. It's a huge story because Cuba, in many ways, is unrecognizable in the economic and social components of the system from what it was 10 years ago. There are capitalist mechanisms operating throughout the island. Many international economists see it as a mixed economy already.
I think that the groundwork is being laid already for a very important, much more rapid economic reform process if and when the bilateral tension can reduce. And that's the dynamic that ought to be studied by journalists.
KARL: Alfredo Duran, now, you, of course, were part of the Bay of Pigs invasion back in '61, and you had a chance not too long ago to go back to the Bay of Pigs. So you've been down, you've seen Cuba. Are you seeing evidence of that? Are you seeing the beginnings of a transition, people beginning to look beyond Castro, having the ability to do that?
DURAN: Oh, I believe so. Cuba has a very young population, and if you take a look at the people who are running the government, the bureaucracy in Cuba, they're all under 50 years of age. Those people don't remember what the Sierra Maestra and the revolution up in the hills was about. They just look into the future.
And part of looking into that future is that the two main things that are lacking in Cuba right now are civil rights and hope for the young people. There's a highly educated young population -- engineers, doctors, every kind of professional -- that really have not much hope to progress in their own personal life in Cuba.
And I think, by the way, that this is one thing that Carter might bring to the island.
KARL: All right. Well, unfortunately, we're out of time. Alfredo Duran, Juan Tamayo, Julia Sweig and, of course, Kate Snow, who'll be back with me in just a few minutes, thank you all for joining us.
We'll be back in just a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KARL: All right, Kate, My Turn, the segment of the show. And now we'll start with you first in Cuba.
SNOW: OK, I'll take it from here.
One thing that really hits you, Jonathan, when you're here in Havana is the power of the U.S. dollar. It's sort of ironic, but all these Cubans, despite the fact the country doesn't recognize the United States, are walking around with George Washington in their wallets.
The peso salary a Cuban worker earns is equivalent to about $10 a month. That, plus a food ration card, doesn't buy them very much at all. So you need dollars. If you can get them, you can buy just about anything. And so Cubans have become creative.
On a narrow back street in old Havana, where the colonial facades are crumbling, I met Pilar. For about 25 bucks a night she rents out an extra room in her apartment. Her visitors are from every country.
The symbol on her door means she has a license from the government to charge in dollars. She pays dearly for the privilege: $200 a month in taxes.
She showed us the bedroom, the 1950s bathroom and the terrace. From there pointed out the other apartments on the block where her friends rent rooms.
Now, other Cubans run restaurants out of their houses, Jon. We had the opportunity to eat at one of them last night. It's called the Palidar (ph). We can't tell you much about it because the one we chose to eat at was illegal with no license -- Jon.
SNOW: Well, Kate, while you've been down there in Cuba testing the value of the American dollar in Havana, back up here on Capitol Hill you've missed an appearance by Julia Roberts.
She was on the Hill to make the case for spending $15 million to fight Rett syndrome. That's a neurological disorder affecting girls that, I can assure you, Kate, most members of Congress had never heard of until Julia Roberts made her way into the committee room.
And that room was packed. I've never seen so many people crowd into an appropriations subcommittee hearing. Her press conference afterwards attracted about a dozen TV cameras. And Julia Roberts' appearance probably will have an impact. I don't think the grumpy appropriators, who, by the way, seemed almost moved to tears by the story Roberts told about a girl affected with Rett syndrome, will be able to say no to this Hollywood star.
So, Kate, down there in Cuba, what do you think? Would Julia Roberts make this big of a splash?
SNOW: Oh, she absolutely would. You know why, Jon, because people know who movie stars are here. It's sort of surprising how much they know about American culture.
I went to a house on Wednesday where they have DirecTV. They get more channels than I get at my home. It's not common, but if you have dollars, you can pay for that kind of access. And you really can get a lot of information from the outside world, if you've got the money for it -- Jon.
KARL: All right. Well, DirecTV in Havana, I have definitely learned something new on this Saturday.
(LAUGHTER)
Thank you for watching SATURDAY EDITION.
For Kate Snow in Havana, I'm Jonathan Karl in Washington.
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