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FBI Changes Rules to Prevent Attacks; Can Police Move Forward With Chandra Levy Investigation?; Can U.S. Diffuse India-Pakistan Standoff?
Aired June 01, 2002 - 10:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The FBI needed to change.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KATE SNOW, HOST: The U.S. changes the rules to prevent terrorist attack. Our roundtable of CNN correspondents talks about the changes, the dissent inside the FBI and the political fallout.
Plus, the latest phase in the Chandra Levy investigation. Can the cops move it forward after the missteps of the past?
The dangerous confrontation between India and Pakistan. Is the U.S. doing enough to diffuse that nuclear standoff?
And the ceremony at Ground Zero. What next to heal that wound?
All just ahead on CNN's SATURDAY EDITION.
Good morning to California, Oregon, the rest of the West Coast and all our viewers across North America. I'm Kate Snow in Washington with this very special SATURDAY EDITION.
Our roundtable of CNN correspondents is straight ahead, ready to tackle the issues of the week. The president's weekly radio address is coming up, but first this news alert.
(NEWSBREAK)
SNOW: The president's radio address is a couple of minutes away.
And today something a little new for SATURDAY EDITION. I'm joined by my CNN colleagues this morning: CNN senior political correspondent Candy Crowley; Justice correspondent Kelli Arena; in town from our New York bureau, Maria Hinojosa; State Department correspondent Andrea Koppel; and White House correspondent Kelly Wallace, who's joining us from West Point, where the president has addressed the U.S. Military Academy graduation.
Let me start with Kelly Wallace, who's going to join us here on the screen from West Point.
Kelly, the president just finishing this commencement address. What was the message, what was his word to the cadets?
KELLY WALLACE, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kate, a very celebratory mood here as each of the 958 graduates are getting their diplomas. The president's message to these future military leaders, the war on terror has just begun.
But then he had a message for some skeptical European allies about where the president wants to take the war. He said the U.S. and its allies must confront the threat of weapons of mass destruction.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: We cannot defend America and our friends by hoping for the best. We cannot put our faith in the word of tyrants who solemnly sign nonproliferation treaties and then systematically break them. If we wait for threats to fully materialize, we will have waited too long.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: And that was a message we heard the president repeat day after day during his trip to Europe and, Kate, one aides say the president will continue to repeat. He's expected to do this kind of vision thing sort of speech every four to six weeks to educate the American people -- Kate.
SNOW: Kelly, not really a traditional commencement address then, right? I mean, he wasn't up there to say, you know, "Here's what you should do with the rest of your lives" and that sort of thing. It was really more a message for the rest of the world?
WALLACE: Exactly. Well, also a special time. This, his first commencement address since the September 11 attacks, talking to future soldiers who will be on the front lines when it comes to the war on terror. So using this opportunity to get a message to the graduates, get a message to the American people, but also, again, Kate, definitely to get a message to some skeptical European countries -- Kate.
SNOW: Was there anything new in the -- I know a lot of this is nuance, and every time the president speaks the message changes a little bit. Anything new this morning?
WALLACE: No new policies, no new initiatives. But what we're hearing the president do for the first time really, not just talk about the war on terror; you heard him talk about that. But he said the goal can't just be the absence of war. He talked about trying to develop good relations with other countries, like Russia, to extend and preserve the peace. He talked about eliminating poverty, promoting human rights around the world.
So we're, for the first time really, hearing the president not just talk about the fight against terror but also moving beyond the war to other threats and other things to deal with around the world -- Kate.
SNOW: Kelly, we're going to ask everybody to stand by.
Kelly's going to stay with us from West Point. The rest of our panel will stick by here.
The president is going to give his weekly radio address, which every week we take live. This morning he's talking about community service. Let's just take a moment and listen in on the president's weekly radio address. Here it is.
BUSH: Good morning. It's graduation time on many college campuses. Members of my administration are traveling around the country to challenge the class of 2002 to make serving their neighbor and their nation a central part of their lives.
Earlier today, I spoke to the graduating cadets of West Point, who will provide the ultimate service to our nation, as we fight and win the war on terror.
Americans have always believed in an ethic of service. Americans serve others because their conscience demands it, because their faith teaches it, because they are grateful to their country, and because service brings rewards much deeper than material success.
Government does not create this idealism, but we can do a better job of supporting and encouraging an ethic of service in America.
During my State of the Union Address last January, I asked all Americans to give at least two years, or 4,000 hours over their lives, to serving others. And I created the USA Freedom Corps to help Americans find volunteer opportunities.
Whatever your talent, whatever your background, each of you can do something. America needs retired doctors and nurses who can be mobilized in emergencies; volunteers to help police and fire departments; and transportation and utility workers trained to spot danger.
We have created a new Citizen Corps to enable Americans to make their own neighborhoods safer. America needs citizens working to strengthen our communities. We need more talented teachers in our troubled schools and more mentors to love our children.
Through the USA Freedom Corps and the Citizens Service Act, introduced in Congress just over a week ago, we will expand and improve the good efforts of AmeriCorps and Senior Corps to meet the needs of America's communities. I urge Congress to act quickly on this good piece of legislation.
The USA Freedom Corps is also working with the non-profits and hospitals, houses of worship, and schools around the country that offer millions of Americans the chance to serve others.
And America needs citizens to extend the compassion of our country to every part of the world. So we are renewing the promise of the Peace Corps, doubling its volunteers over the next five years and asking it to expand its efforts to foster education and development in the Islamic world. We will fight resentment and hatred with hope and progress.
Americans from every walk of life are heeding the call to service. Since my State of the Union Address, more than 45,000 Americans have asked for Peace Corps applications. More than 34,000 citizens have signed up for the new Citizen Corps initiative. Applications for AmeriCorps and Senior Corps are also up.
And service knows no age requirement. You're never too old or too young to help out.
One remarkable act of service came from 13-year-old Ashley Shamberger (ph) of Aloha, Oregon. A few months ago, Ashley (ph) wrote me a letter about the patriotic keychains she and her mom made and sold to raise money for the children of Afghanistan. She included a check for $270.88 "to save more kids," as she put it. She did all this while hospitalized with cancer. Tragically, Ashley (ph) died on the very day her letter reached the White House.
This is the character of our country. This is the soul of our people. This is the nation we love and can honor, through acts of service. If you'd like to find opportunities to serve your community, our country or the world, as so many Americans already have, just contact usafreedomcorps.gov or call 1-877-USA-CORPS.
Thank you for listening.
WALLACE: And up next on this special edition of SATURDAY EDITION, a panel of CNN correspondents. We'll take a look at the president's trip to Europe and that verbal volley with the White House reporter. What was that all about? Stay tuned to find out.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WALLACE: Well, the president was criticized a bit during his European trip, particularly for criticizing David Gregory of NBC News, who was showing his fluency in French. Here, take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID GREGORY, NBC NEWS: ... particularly, there's a view that you and your administration are trying to impose America's will on the rest of the world, particularly when it comes to the Middle East and where the war on terrorism goes next.
(through translator): Mr. President, would you maybe comment on that.
BUSH: Wait a minute. That's very good. The guy memorizes four words and he plays like he's intercontinental.
(LAUGHTER)
Yes, I'm impressed. (SPEAKING IN SPANISH)
(LAUGHTER)
Now I'm literate in two languages.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: And we are back here live from West Point on this special edition of SATURDAY EDITION.
I don't know about you, guys, I was sitting in the front row at that news conference, the president seemed a bit edgy.
KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: To say the least.
WALLACE: Candy, you know Mr. Bush very, very well. What do you think? Do you think this criticism of him is fair?
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: My guess is, A, he hadn't had a lot of sleep. He does tend to get pretty cranky when he doesn't get his full eight hours.
The other thing is, I don't know, Kelly -- as you know, it comes across different in the room. I thought it was funny. You know, I'm surprised by the play it got and then I'm not surprised because we love nothing so much as to talk about ourselves, so that's great.
But it just didn't strike me as particularly bitter or sarcastic. It struck me as sort of maybe a cranky Bush. But everybody in the room was laughing instead of that sort of, "Oh, my goodness."
MARIA HINOJOSA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, it's is weird because I hadn't seen it up until now. And actually, when you see it, it is kind of funny.
But I think that, when you look at it and you see this, it's kind of like, wait a second, what is he ...
CROWLEY: It plays worse in print.
HINOJOSA: It plays worse in print. What is he trying to say?
ARENA: And then he was jazzing him. You know, I mean, it looked like he was just trying to be funny and did it and...
SNOW: Wait a second, though. Let me just be devil's advocate because, I mean, to Europeans, they always criticize him for being kind of the guy that doesn't speak a lot...
(CROSSTALK)
SNOW: ... you know, the guy that doesn't speak languages and -- doesn't that play right into...
ARENA: But that was his shtick the whole way through though. But he is who is he is. And I think that he did -- I mean, he called him Jacques Chirac "Jacques," you know, on his trip. I mean, this is...
CROWLEY: Yes, but how is Jacques feeling about that?
ARENA: It's his whole down-home, I'm from Texas, you know, hi, I'm George Bush. But you know what though?
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT: But he interrupted David's question. I thought it was a little bit off- putting, I really did.
(CROSSTALK)
KOPPEL: ... like that and interrupt. It's almost like the president was saying...
(CROSSTALK)
CROWLEY: But I mean, and also, I mean, I don't think particularly -- I realize that it plays well in Europe, but I think back home people look at it and they think, "Yes, he's an American, hurray for him."
SNOW: Kelly, you were saying that this isn't that unusual for a reporter to jump into the native language of a leader. It's sort of respectful.
WALLACE: Well, that's what we were sort of saying. You know, when we go overseas, if we're in France or Germany, those reporters will address their leader in the country's language and then address President Bush in English. So that is not criticized.
And you know what's funny, guys, I was talking to a senior Bush adviser yesterday about all this, asked the president's feelings. He said the president's kind of been used by it. He thinks there's an overreaction. He says, "Look, I kid those kids all of the time." So he felt he was joking around.
SNOW: Kelly, what was David Gregory's reaction? I mean, what did he say? Was he insulted or did he just say, you know, oh well?
WALLACE: Well, he feels the president had a little more edge to himself than usual. He knows the president kids him and others quite a bit, but he felt the president might have crossed that line. I know he's received a lot of e-mail, some supporting him saying "Bravo," others saying, you know, "How dare you, kind of, insult the commander in chief that way."
ARENA: The fact that this generates e-mail...
WALLACE: It goes both ways.
ARENA: ...is amazing to me.
WALLACE: I know.
ARENA: This is so amazing. HINOJOSA: What I thought was strange was that, for Bush to then at that precise moment for him to be speaking in Spanish, when he says "Que, bueno."
SNOW: Right, instead of in French, right.
HINOJOSA: Because part of him speaking in Spanish is that he's able to handle a couple of different languages. Don't you want everybody to be able to do that?
SNOW: Yes, yes, yes.
WALLACE: And, guys, let me jump in. One other interesting note during the trip, as you all know, certainly the president meeting with Pope John Paul II. It was Mr. Bush's second meeting with the pope since taking office.
The interesting thing here, before the trip, Condoleezza Rice, the president's national security adviser, said she did not expect that the president would raise the issue, the ongoing controversy, the church sex scandal involving Catholic priests. But during the visit, the president did raise the issue, expressing his concern.
And I want to throw it out to all you guys. Bush advisers say this was not about politics. What do you guys think?
KOPPEL: But, I mean, the way that he expressed it was so half- hearted. I mean, to say he's expressing concern, why didn't he just say, "We are concerned about pedophilia"? Why couldn't he say that?
ARENA: Well, I mean, look, I mean...
(CROSSTALK)
CROWLEY: I don't know, to the pope? I mean, I think the pope's pretty aware of it. And, I mean, I'm hoping George Bush is concerned about pedophilia. It's just -- it's like one of those things you want to go, "Stop, for heaven's sakes." I mean, of course he's going to say something to him about it.
SNOW: Right.
CROWLEY: And if he had said, "No, we're not going to bring it up," as Condoleezza Rice said, we'd all go, "Why not?"
SNOW: Exactly.
HINOJOSA: The fact that there was a discussion, are they going to talk about it, aren't they going to talk about it? My God, it's there. If you don't talk about it, then you are out of touch.
ARENA: Right. It's the elephant in the room. It's the elephant in the room.
KOPPEL: Exactly.
ARENA: And come on, I mean, the Catholic vote is obviously important. Also...
CROWLEY: Well, how does this help the Catholic vote?
ARENA: No, but I just think, that's what I'm wondering.
KOPPEL: I'm -- is it going to make me want to vote for Bush in the next election because he raises it?
ARENA: But, Candy, I do think that Catholic Americans were very angry with the Vatican's response to this whole crisis here in the United States. And I think that it sort of tips the hat to them and says, "OK, you know what? I did say something. I brought it up with him. We let him know that it was a concern to this administration, to our country."
You know, I think, yes, I mean, I think it is politics. I mean, isn't everything politics?
CROWLEY: Usually.
Speaking of politics and institutions in trouble, we're going to go from the Catholic Church to the FBI, when we get back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CROWLEY: That's Agent Coleen Rowley, sort of the woman from Minneapolis, an agent at the FBI, who wrote a blistering memo to the head of the FBI.
We went out there to do a profile on her. And I've got to tell you, it's this suburban, quiet -- I mean, you hear a rooster, which...
(LAUGHTER)
... I never did quite get into that. But the Rowleys, for some reason, have a rooster in their sort of suburban Minneapolis place.
And you think, my gosh, this woman is -- when I went back in the hotel and watched Mueller say, "I'd like to thank Agent Rowley for her memo."
ARENA: Yes, I'm sure he would.
CROWLEY: I bet he'd rather not.
(LAUGHTER)
But in any case, he can't help but have to.
It's amazing to me that this one FBI agent, who everyone that knows her describes as, you know, straightforward, hardworking, you know, and has wanted to be in the FBI since grade school.
KOPPEL: And is two and a half years away from retirement. And what chutzpah this lady has to sit down and write this 13-page memo, criticizing, tearing apart, really, what the FBI had presented for so many months.
CROWLEY: And it's pretty cheeky. You know, it's like, well...
(CROSSTALK)
ARENA: Here's a definition of -- I must be calling a spade a spade, yes.
HINOJOSA: This sense of kind of, you know, the Midwest and they're jumping up and down and saying, we got this guy, and then D.C. on its high post just saying, "Yes, you know." I mean, is there that kind of schism, as well, kind of like, you guys are in the hinterland, you don't really know, we're the ones who know?
CROWLEY: I'm not sure it's that so much as -- I think there's some -- I mean, Kelli is better at this, but, you know, look, it's like for us, it's like Atlanta, you know. I mean, there these people sort of telling what you're doing. I'm thinking, "Oh, yes, right, like they know. Well, I'm here and I know what's going on," and I think it's that kind of thing.
ARENA: And Director Mueller had said in a private meeting with reporters that there is always tension between headquarters and field operations. And you know, there was a little bit of history there.
SNOW: But this is more than tension. I mean, she's saying, "Look, we had clues and you guys didn't pay attention."
ARENA: Right, but she was frustrated. She was frustrated. She had been intimately involved in that case. They tried very hard. They pushed for a really long time to try to, you know, get into Zacarias Moussaoui's computer. You know, there was a lot of emotion involved...
CROWLEY: And there was an element, say her fellow agents, an element of sticking up for the bureau.
SNOW: I think, Kelly, do you want to say something?
WALLACE: Yes, I did. I wanted to ask Kelli, the other Kelli, Kelli Arena, Kelli, what prompted this? I mean, it's been many months. Was it sort of hearing FBI Director Robert Mueller saying that the 9/11 attacks could not have been prevented...
ARENA: Right. Yes. I mean, I think it was..
(CROSSTALK)
WALLACE: ... simply prompted her to...
ARENA: Her biggest beef was with his public statements, when he said that, A, that there was nothing that could have, you know, that they could have done to stop the September 11 attacks. And she said, "How could anybody be so prescient as to know that you couldn't stop the September 11 attacks?" And he also said, shortly after September 11, that he didn't have -- the FBI didn't have any information on U.S. flight schools when, in fact, it did. At the time, Mueller says he wasn't lying about it. He honestly didn't know. He had been on the job a week and a half.
HINOJOSA: But in the memo she writes, she's almost -- she's saying, you know, cover-up here. I mean, for this woman to say -- to me, it's impressive that, within the FBI, she's going to write this letter to Mueller and saying, "I'm concerned about whether or not something more serious is happening." That's...
SNOW: And now, Mueller has changed his tune a little bit this week.
ARENA: Well, he has. I mean, he has said -- he backed off and said in direct, you know, in direct response to a reporter question, "Well, had we pursued all of these leads that we now know about, had we had the proper analysis and connected the dots, then possibly that might have led us to a lead that could have led us to one of the hijackers."
But don't forget this comes in the midst of a major reorganization and major overhaul at the FBI. We heard a lot from Mueller about that this week. He had a lot to say. Why don't we let's take a listen to one of the statements that he made on that overhaul earlier this week.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT MUELLER, DIRECTOR OF THE FBI: Because our focus is on preventing terrorist attacks, more so than in the past, we must be open to new ideas, to criticism from within and from without, and to admitting and learning from our mistakes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KOPPEL: Can I -- want to ask you something. Why is it -- we talk about, obviously, Ms. Rowley's 13-page memo and also the Phoenix memo. Why weren't those two connected? That's what I don't understand.
ARENA: Right, this is the question. They both -- both of the pieces of information went to the same terrorist unit within headquarters. Now, the question still is, did the same people see the same...
CROWLEY: Well, how much stuff do they get in? I've always wondered that. Like, are they going to get thousands...
ARENA: Oh, they get thousands and thousands of memos.
(CROSSTALK)
CROWLEY: You know, it's kind of like e-mails. I've got e-mails that I just go, delete, delete, delete, delete.
(LAUGHTER)
And it's true, you know, without even opening them up. So I'm sort of wondering, you know, how much material are we talking about?
ARENA: Exactly, Candy. I mean, I think that is part of it. And don't forget, I mean, the FBI's strength has not been in its analysis. That has been something the CIA has been charged with.
SNOW: But we just heard the soundbite. That's what they're trying to change now.
ARENA: Yes.
SNOW: Do you think that the changes that he's making, that Mueller is talking about, are really going to -- would they solve this problem?
ARENA: Well, I can tell you what the experts think, and the experts think that he has taken a step in the right direction. The only problem here is that the changes do not really affect the culture, and there really is a culture that has to be a overcome.
This is a crime-fighting agency. These are a group of people who have been waiting for crimes to happen and then very successfully responding. And you know, as we saw in New York with the first bombing of the World Trade Center, with the embassy bombing.
Kelly, I know you're dying to say something. Cut in.
WALLACE: I am. I'm out here..
(LAUGHTER)
My question for all of you, in the middle of this football field, though, is, isn't Mueller possibly in trouble? You have conservatives out there, you have the "Wall Street Journal" calling for him to step down...
(CROSSTALK)
WALLACE: ... conservative commentators normally supporting the president. I mean, what do you think? Do you think he really is in trouble?
ARENA: Well, let's put that "Wall Street Journal" editorial, though, in perspective. "The Wall Street Journal" has a bit of a history with Robert Mueller. They had a major problem with him in his handling of the BCCI scandal when he was in charge of the criminal division. So this dates back. They were the lone national voice against him right before he was appointed, when his name was being circulated. So there's a little bit...
SNOW: But Congress loved him. I mean, they approved him.
ARENA: Right. And there has not been one voice in Congress that has said, "This isn't the right guy for the job." KOPPEL: So why aren't they talking about Louis Freeh?
ARENA: Well...
KOPPEL: He was the guy who was running the shop for so many years and, obviously, was in charge at the time some of these memos were circulating?
ARENA: You can't make political hay with somebody who's already gone, can you?
HINOJOSA: You know what's interesting is that, in New York, people have -- you know, when they're talking about the new direction of the FBI, how people are kind of -- I mean, people are still so shell-shocked that's it's almost like, do what you have to do, do what you have to do. And then you start hearing Malcolm X, Martin Luther King, and the things that...
(CROSSTALK)
HINOJOSA: And then, all of a sudden, everybody is like, "Wait a second, take a deep breath."
And then of course you say, is it that they -- they have everything that they need, they just weren't connecting the dots because they were living in the historical moment where people just never, ever, ever could have conceived that it was going to happen here, ever.
KOPPEL: But, Maria, that's what's so scary now. Now they're saying we should give the FBI more authority to be able to monitor public demonstrations, to be able to monitor e-mail chat rooms...
(CROSSTALK)
CROWLEY: Let me tell you something. We tried to pitch a story immediately after 9/11 about who's at fault here, why didn't they do it? And you couldn't touch that thing with a 10-foot pole.
The same with when you said to people, you know, "Do you want to profile Arab-Americans," they all went, "Yes, I do." So you get another, get another, and God forbid, anything happening, I promise you, they will set aside the Constitution.
(CROSSTALK)
SNOW: Kelly, she's dying.
WALLACE: You guys?
SNOW: Go ahead.
WALLACE: Doesn't Congress have a role to play here too, though? We've been talking about how those committees have had access to the information for many, many months as well. SNOW: Wait a second, though. Here's what they would say, is they haven't had great access to all this. The 9/11 committee that was set up in mid-February to look at intelligence failures -- it's a joint Senate-House committee -- they're going to start their big hearings next week.
And if you were asking me, well, why now? Why wait until now? But, I mean, a lot of it is that Congress can only be as good at oversight as...
CROWLEY: But I don't mean now, post-9/11, I mean these guys have had oversight with the FBI...
ARENA: They've had oversight. I agree with Candy. They've had oversight.
SNOW: But they didn't know about these matters.
ARENA: Even so, Kate. They've had oversight, OK? If they wanted the FBI to be a preventative organization, you know, instead of a reactive organization, there is something that they could've done about that.
SNOW: They would say, I mean...
HINOJOSA: What people are feeling on the street is that no one knows anything. I mean, it's really a feeling like, "You know what? We're just going to move forward, but no one really knows. No one knows what's going to happen."
I mean, you hear about the lack of, for example, agents who speak Arabic -- just the basic things. I mean, the front page of the New York Times had a piece about al Qaeda and Osama planning attacks in the United States. This wasn't ringing bells?
So I think people are just like, "Gosh, you know what? Live day by day, one day at a time, and we don't know," which is kind of scary when you're just saying they don't know what's happening.
SNOW: That's exactly what my mother said to me a few weeks ago: "It's just so scary not to know."
We're going to cut off this conversation and come back in just a moment with another conversation. We're going to talk about the Chandra murder -- Chandra Levy, of course; you know who Chandra is -- murder investigation and ceremony at ground zero in New York City this week. Maria has a lot to say about that.
We're going to say goodbye to our colleague, Kelly Wallace, who has been with us from West Point this morning.
Kelly, hey, thanks a lot for joining us. Bye-bye.
WALLACE: See you in the studio some time.
SNOW: All right, thanks. And straight ahead, a little bit more on Chandra Levy again, and first we do a news alert, though, from Atlanta with Kyra Phillips.
(NEWSBREAK)
SNOW: We're going to come back with more. We're going to talk about the Chandra Levy investigation. Of course, this week, it was determined that was a homicide. Have the D.C. Police done enough? We'll talk about that when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHARLES RAMSEY, D.C. POLICE CHIEF: We're conducting a full-blown murder investigation now. We feel confident that we will eventually solve this particular case, although it's not going to be easy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SNOW: D.C. Police Chief Charles Ramsey speaking there about the Chandra Levy investigation. This week, of course, it was determined that she was killed, that it was a homicide, but still, no real clues. I mean, the medical examiner came back on Tuesday and said, "We know she was killed, we know it was a homicide, we don't know how." A lot more questions than there are answers, at this point.
KOPPEL: I just thought the timing of all of that was really unfortunate. I mean, obviously, this has been going on for months and months and months. Why did they have to announce it on the same day as her memorial service? And there was almost like a split screen between her parents and family members walking into the memorial service and the breaking news on CNN saying, "Guess what? You know, she was killed."
HINOJOSA: I mean, clearly, people were just not surprised. I mean, I think everybody, yes, well, yes, she was killed.
ARENA: This just in. Chandra Levy killed by -- you know...
(LAUGHTER)
HINOJOSA: It's interesting because my husband was at the gym with my little girl, and someone came up to him and said -- you know, one of the other moms came up and said, "So, you know, they found Chandra. What do you think? Who do you think did it?"
You know, and my husband, who is from the Dominican Republic, just said, you know, it's the kind of soap opera that Americans get involved with that takes the focus off of not -- I mean, clearly, the death of a young woman is extraordinarily important. But the whole soap opera-ish drama fascination, it's, like, yes, well, let's find who did it, but, you know, let's understand this in some kind of historical perspective here. Where are we in the world right now.
CROWLEY: I take the point, but the good news is that there were also stories about people who turn up missing all the time. I mean, it had some ripple effect that had value to it beyond a single tragedy. So there was that.
HINOJOSA: And I think there was the question of a young intern and what happens, the relationships here in Washington, D.C.
SNOW: But how many women go missing? I wish I knew the number.
CROWLEY: No. Well, that's what I mean.
(CROSSTALK)
SNOW: Hundreds of women.
CROWLEY: And in fact, maybe a couple in the District who may be related to this, and that's exactly what I'm saying.
ARENA: Well, they have someone in jail now who they're talking to.
CROWLEY: There were tangential stories about, you know, how well the police do following up on these cases.
I mean, we all know that the only reason this case got so much attention was the Gary Condit...
SNOW: Exactly.
CROWLEY: You know, and that's not an altogether bad thing, other than if you're Gary Condit.
SNOW: Actually, I want to ask Kelli about what you just brought up a second ago. There is a guy in jail who's...
ARENA: Right.
SNOW: ... ten years in jail for attacking two other women, same park, Rock Creek Park.
ARENA: Right, right.
SNOW: What you make of that? I mean, are police really or the FBI really thinking he could be...
ARENA: Could be, you know, but they don't have any solid leads. I mean, the bottom line is they do not have solid leads. They do have this man in jail who has killed other women in the park. And so, they're talking to him, obviously.
KOPPEL: Or tried to. I don't he killed them.
ARENA: Yes, that's right, attacked them.
So, you know, but -- you know, there's been -- what this has also done now is that this body -- if she was killed in this park -- has been there for 13 months, where we saw those search parties going on and on.
CROWLEY: Yes. I mean, well, you know, they keep talking about, well, you know, it's a remote area. I'm thinking, it's Washington, D.C. How remote can it be?
(CROSSTALK)
CROWLEY: It's not like we're in Montana someplace.
ARENA: Well, I mean, sure, Rock Creek Park is big park. But we had cadets out there, dogs.
(CROSSTALK)
SNOW: Just to be fair to the police, because I asked Ramsey about this last week, it's 200 yards, apparently, off of the jogging path.
ARENA: Yes, but who's going to kill somebody and leave them on the path?
SNOW: Right, they looked 100 yards in each direction. They had to create a grid. They say they had to -- because they only had a certain amount of manpower, or people power, so that had to...
(CROSSTALK)
ARENA: So are you going to look on a path where a million people are going to walk, or are you going to go into the brush where nobody goes? That's where I would put a body if I killed -- I mean, would you leave it right there?
HINOJOSA: Exactly. That's what I'm saying. When they say that they're going to go through the park...
ARENA: Not that I intend on, you know.
HINOJOSA: When they say that they're going to go through the park and comb the park, yes, Rock Creek is a huge park, but this was a huge investigation. That they could miss it?
(CROSSTALK)
CROWLEY: D.C. is just not that remote. I'm sorry. I don't care...
(CROSSTALK)
SNOW: Urban police officers, it's been pointed out a million times that these are guys who don't -- you know, normally, they find bodies on asphalt. They don't know...
CROWLEY: Now, wait a minute. We spent a great deal of time talking about how, oh, Rock Creek Park, a lot of bodies have been found there. I mean, that was part -- that was of the, you know, the coverage. So I mean, look, you know, I salute the police, I know they, you know -- but I just think that there's something a little funky about this.
KOPPEL: I just want to put something out there very quickly. She worked -- Chandra worked for the prisons, right?
CROWLEY: Right.
KOPPEL: She was an intern there. Why has nobody asked, perhaps if there was somebody related to her job?
ARENA: No, they have. They did, early in the investigation they did. And they could not come up with any connection that was Bureau of Prison related.
CROWLEY: They talked to a bunch of people -- boyfriends, you know, stuff like that.
ARENA: Right. I mean, you know, did she have any correspondence with any prisoners? And everything turned up empty on that score.
HINOJOSA: So let me ask you something from the outside. Has this -- how much has this affected Rock Creek Park in and of itself? Because, I mean, are people still just...
ARENA: I don't think it has.
HINOJOSA: Nothing?
(CROSSTALK)
SNOW: Yes, but you know, it's interesting. I run a lot. I would never go there...
ARENA: Really?
SNOW: ... at night.
CROWLEY: Not by yourself.
SNOW: Or by myself.
(CROSSTALK)
CROWLEY: Well, she was in -- well, we don't know when this was, but we thought maybe this was early in the morning.
(CROSSTALK)
CROWLEY: But, I mean, I think people go in groups. I mean, it's -- and it certainly isn't the only -- I mean, makes it sound like, oh, my gosh, 30 bodies.
HINOJOSA: But it's kind of like -- it's like our Central Park...
CROWLEY: It doesn't feel that...
HINOJOSA: ... I guess.
CROWLEY: Yes, it doesn't feel that dangerous there.
HINOJOSA: It's just interesting because, you know, I thought the same thing. I was like, "Oh, I'm in D.C. Maybe I should go for a run in Rock" -- and I was like, no, which, you know, I would go for a run in Central Park. So it's kind of weird how that works.
KOPPEL: OK. This is a sharp 90-degree turn here from Chandra to India and Pakistan. Seventeen million -- we're not talking about money, we're talking about potentially the number of people who could be killed if these two nuclear giants decide to ramp things up to a nuclear war.
Coming up, we're going to talk about what the Bush administration is doing to try to diffuse the situation.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: What you have is two countries, each of which has a great many conventional forces and nuclear power as well. And it's in their interest, as much as anybody's. It's the millions and millions and millions of people who live in those two countries who would be damaged by conflict.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KOPPEL: That's Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld earlier this week, outlining the high stakes of a possible nuclear war between India and Pakistan earlier this week. In fact, just yesterday, the U.S. State Department telling Americans, 60,000 of whom live and work in India, that they should leave.
This is the first time they have ever done this in India. In Pakistan, they were ordered to leave, actually, a few months ago. But the U.S. really does believe, I mean, obviously, it's you know, it's something nobody wants to think about, but that we could be on the brink of a nuclear war.
SNOW: But Musharraf said, in an interview with CNN this morning or last night, that he's not going to start it, and India has said, well, we're not going to start it.
KOPPEL: That is new.
SNOW: So how real...
KOPPEL: I have to say that is new, because until now, Pakistan has said that it didn't have a no-first-use policy, and India said it did. So there was always the threat that Pakistan might lob a missile first.
And also, Pakistan has a much smaller conventional army, and India has an enormous one. But there are a million troops.
And that's the other thing, people -- I mean, obviously, we've had other big stories in the news. But there have been a million men that have been on the border of India and Pakistan since January.
HINOJOSA: It's very scary.
KOPPEL: Since January.
HINOJOSA: I have to tell you know, in New York, it's like you talk to people and there's this real sense that people are watching Indian-Pakistani relations in a way that there would have never been that level of interest. I mean, people are just like, what does this mean? What could this possibly mean?
KOPPEL: So people really are paying attention to this? Because I would think that it seems so remote. You know, it's over there and...
HINOJOSA: The thing that hasn't been talked about a lot that's kind of a sidebar to this is that the "New York Times" magazine last Sunday had a huge piece about, how scared should we be about nuclear war? And it was a pretty terrifying article about how New York and other places in the country could be targeted.
So the idea of -- I have to tell you, every day this week, I have thought about it. I have thought about what happens if a nuclear bomb drops now, and it's a horrible thought.
And at the same time, I'm thinking, how are the Pakistanis and the Indian people now living with that fear, very real, much more real than we could possibly even imagine it in New York City?
KOPPEL: What the U.S. is most concerned about is not the fact that India's necessarily or Pakistan is necessarily going to put a nuke on one of their missiles, but that this could start like a conventional war and things will just escalate.
And that is why Rumsfeld is going over next week. That is why Richard Armitage, the deputy secretary of state, is going over next week to lay it on the line to these guys, to say, "Look, we know that you guys have thought about this, but let's just put the numbers on the table." Up to 17 million people could be killed initially. That's before the radiation starts spreading. That's before...
ARENA: Wasn't that worst-case scenario? That was the worst-case scenario, if they lobbed all of their arsenal?
KOPPEL: Not necessarily. That's if they -- I mean, just think about it. You know, these are, especially in India, it's such a populous country, there are over a billion people there. So I mean, you hit one or two major cities there, and then the radiation spreads.
CROWLEY: I mean, aren't we just also a little worried that we'd really rather have Musharraf doing something else, and that is guarding his border, the border of Afghanistan, to make sure that al Qaeda doesn't come back in? KOPPEL: Absolutely. And he just diverted troops, which is something he had been saying he wasn't going to do.
(CROSSTALK)
CROWLEY: Are they increased fear about the troops in Afghanistan, U.S. troops? I mean, I'm assuming, since all we heard about was the great porous borders between Pakistan and Afghanistan. But, you know, if Musharraf moves troops, are we now more worried about, you know, that al Qaeda is moving back in?
KOPPEL: Well, yes.
CROWLEY: Any sign that they are?
KOPPEL: I think yes and yes. And the fact of the matter is, there were reports also earlier this week that al Qaeda was already and Taliban were already moving into Western Pakistan and regrouping.
And there were also questions out there. The Bush administration wasn't exactly pleased as punch with the fact that the Pakistanis were doing their best to seal the border.
SNOW: But on the other hand, though, here's something that I think is interesting is Bush has got this -- President Bush has got this policy now of, you know, "If you're fighting terrorism, we're with you." And India has been saying, "Look, this is terrorism. The Pakistanis are going over the border," and Pakistan denies that.
So where does the Bush administration go? Because, on the one hand...
CROWLEY: They have to be the ones -- I mean, if I'm the Bush administration, I'm going to define what it is, right. You get to define terrorism and who's actually the victim of terrorism and who's, you know, actually, the victim of border dispute.
KOPPEL: But, I mean, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, and that's exactly what the situation is in Pakistan.
And, Kate, I'm really glad you brought that up because it's a similar situation in the Middle East. The Israelis have been saying, "Look, we are the victims of terrorist attacks. The Palestinian militants have been killing our citizens, so we have every right to defend our country just the way the United States did after 9/11." And that's the same argument that Vajpayee, the prime minister of India, is using.
ARENA: And of course there's the subtext here, the whole terrorist subtext, which is that al Qaeda is really pumping up the volume, I mean, is doing what it can to exacerbate this conflict. So that there are less resources devoted toward keeping al Qaeda and Taliban forces...
SNOW: Do you think they're intentionally doing that, or officials think that? ARENA: That is what they believe, yes, that that is what they are doing. And they have always viewed Pakistan as a safe haven. And so you know that the heat is on in Afghanistan, so you move your operations over to Pakistan.
CROWLEY: By the way, are they not on the run anymore?
(LAUGHTER)
I don't really get this. I mean, al Qaeda was like, well, we've really -- we've disrupted them, they're running, and they're this. And now all of a sudden they're fomenting nuclear war someplace. So have they, like, regrouped?
ARENA: You know, Candy, the thing is, is that, you know, what is al Qaeda? Al Qaeda is not, you know, the Genovese family. Al Qaeda is a loosely connected group of people with like interests all over the globe who can get funding and can get direction from a variety of places.
We know that the 9/11 plot was completely conceived overseas. Well, at least that's what the investigation has shown so far. So this is not, you know, a very easily definable, get-your-hands-around group.
HINOJOSA: And unfortunately, we're going to be talking a little bit more about 9/11 when we come back. A very, very emotional ceremony this past Thursday at ground zero, marking the end of the official recovery efforts. We'll talk about that when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HINOJOSA: It was incredible to see 16 acres of New York City in silence, and that's what happened on Thursday.
I have to say, I am not a person who is into ceremonies or pomp. I cried throughout the whole thing. It was extraordinary because just this fact that this whole area was quiet, that you knew that you were letting go of this site that, for eight and a half months, has become ground zero.
And now, we get into some very strange territory. What happens, you know? It's not ground zero anymore, it's not -- the construction hasn't quite started yet. The discussion about the memorial, what happens in this site, the fact that it's sacred ground.
I mean, you know, more than 1,700 people were killed there, whose bodies have not been found. And so, for a lot of the family members who I spoke to, they just said, "This is leading us into yet another part of our recovery, which is coming to terms with the fact that we may never get anything back."
KOPPEL: Did people think it was too soon, Maria, to stop the search?
HINOJOSA: No, no. I mean, the fact was is that there's no more to search. There's just no more to search.
CROWLEY: It's not that their bodies haven't been found. It's that there aren't any bodies there anymore.
HINOJOSA: Well, there are no more bodies. That's right. And so, what you're talking about is body parts. But you know what, what's just so sad is that you talk to people and they're just like, "Anything, just anything."
And I think that -- I happen to know someone who did, in fact, they found parts of her mother, and it's hard. It's like -- it's a trite way to say it, but there is a no-win situation here. If you don't find anything, you feel horrible, you know, dust to dust. And yet, if you do find something, it's horrible, as well. It's the realization that...
ARENA: It brings back the fact that they suffered, you know. I mean, you get an arm or -- I mean, I can't imagine that. I cannot imagine that.
KOPPEL: I read one woman saying that she almost hoped they didn't find any part of her husband, because she preferred to imagine that he was just kind of incinerated, as opposed to the suffering.
ARENA: Yes. A mother said that about her daughter, too, that it would -- it indicates suffering, if you find pieces.
HINOJOSA: You know, the strange thing is that, you know, as New Yorkers, we all have to come to terms with the fact that, you know, these people who perished have all become a part of us, in one way or another. I mean, we breathed in who they were, in our lives, living in New York City.
And in a way, there's something that's quite spiritual about that, you know, that we are all part of it, which is why, when people talk about the memorial, you know, some people said that one of the things they wanted to do was for everybody to have a chance to lay something down in that memorial to rebuild, something personally, even if it's just, "Let me take this piece of rock or this piece of brick or this glass, so that I can help rebuild." The rebuilding, though, it's very -- it's difficult now.
ARENA: That's very tricky, Maria. And what do you do? I mean, you know, in one sense, this is a burial ground. This is sacred, hallowed land. Do you rebuild?
On the other hand, I've had, you know, I grew up in New York. I have lots of friends and family still there. And they have said, "You know, well, you know, the best thing that we could do would be to rebuild, you know, build something even mightier than the World Trade Center."
CROWLEY: Sounds like a New Yorker.
(LAUGHTER) ARENA: And just say, well, you know, there you go. You know, we're not going to be knocked down. You know, so it really is, it's such a tough decision to make as to, what do you put?
HINOJOSA: And politically, very complicated, too.
SNOW: I'm curious what people think, because I went by there, I don't know, a month ago, for the very first time, just driving by because I was in that part of New York for a story. And I couldn't believe how big the area is. And there's this viewing platform that we all know about.
What do people think of that? I mean, I felt bad driving by because I got to say I felt like I was some kind of voyeur, you know?
HINOJOSA: Well, you know what, it's part of the reality that we're going to have to come to terms with, because the viewing platform is there. It's been said that whatever memorial is built, there will be the most visited memorial in the world.
CROWLEY: So it's set that there'll be a memorial there...
HINOJOSA: What they're talking about now...
CROWLEY: ... of some sort?
HINOJOSA: ... that definitely there will be a memorial of some sort. And there seems to be some consensus now that the footprints, in other words, the outlines of each of the towers itself, will be what will be used as the part for the memorial.
CROWLEY: So, a park, sort of?
HINOJOSA: We don't know. It's going to be an international competition for what that memorial will look like. But it will be the outlines of each tower, but we're talking 16 acres here, so...
SNOW: We're going to take just a -- I'm sorry to interrupt -- take a quick little break here.
There's some live stuff going on, as we're speaking, up at West Point in New York. President Bush gave a commencement address this morning, and some 950-plus cadets are going to graduate this morning. Let's listen while they take the oath.
(SCENES FROM WEST POINT COMMENCEMENT)
SNOW: Some 950-plus cadets at West Point Academy in New York taking the oath. They become second lieutenants in the Army now. Of course, a lot of them headed out to the front lines of the war on terrorism, some of them headed to Afghanistan, presumably.
President Bush, this morning, spoke to them, talked about the war on terror, talked about their duties. It was really an interesting speech because, not only was it a commencement address, but it was also directed at these people who are the front line in that war. ARENA: I just got a chill, actually, seriously, just watching that, thinking that this is the first class since the war on terrorism began. And whereas, before, it was always sort of theoretical that they would be going out to defend the U.S. on a military base in Saudi Arabia, now they're potentially going to be flying and fighting on the ground.
CROWLEY: I think it was probably more theoretical to us than it is to them and has been to cadets or naval ensigns that graduate from the Naval Academy. I think they are pretty well taught. And they go to places that we haven't paid that much attention to, and have been in danger. This, just to us, we really get it now.
HINOJOSA: I guess to live with the fact that you really are a target as a soldier is hard.
SNOW: We're going to wrap it up. I want to thank everybody. This was a lot of fun.
Thank you so much to the roundtable, to Kelly Wallace at West Point, who joined us earlier, to Maria, who came down from New York, Kelli Arena, Candy and Andrea Koppel both here with me.
I'm Kate Snow with CNN's SATURDAY EDITION.
Up next, a news alert and then "PEOPLE IN THE NEWS," with profiles on boxer Mike Tyson, the singer Jewel, and actor Morgan Freeman. That's coming right up.
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