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FBI Asks Congressmen to Take Polygraphs; FBI Report Progress on Anthrax Mailings Investigation; Congress Leaves Without Resolving Prescription Drugs Issue
Aired August 03, 2002 - 10:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KATE SNOW, HOST: Good morning to all our viewers across North America, and welcome to CNN's SATURDAY EDITION. I'm Kate Snow, in Los Angeles today. I'll be talking about leaks on Capitol Hill and the FBI probe of Congress.
ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: I'm Elizabeth Cohen, CNN medical correspondent, in Washington. West Nile disease: Health officials say don't panic, so what should you do?
KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: I'm justice correspondent Kelli Arena. I'll talk about why the deadly whodunnit of the anthrax investigation broke out into the open again this week.
DANA BASH, CNN CAPITOL HILL PRODUCER: I'm Dana Bash, CNN Capitol Hill producer. Congress left for vacation without helping seniors pay for their medicine. What happened, and what's the political fall-out? That's all just ahead.
SUSAN LISOVICZ, CNN FINANCIAL NEWS CORRESPONDENT: I'm financial correspondent Susan Lisovicz in New York. The government says the recession was longer and deeper than we had thought. I'll talk about its impact on Wall Street.
KELLY WALLACE, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: And I'm White House correspondent Kelly Wallace in Kennebunkport, Maine. The debate over taking on Saddam Hussein, straight ahead, plus the president's weekly radio address. But first, a look at the news headlines.
(NEWSBREAK)
WALLACE: Well, we have lots of discussion this week about possible military actions against Saddam Hussein. We had congressional hearings this week. And then, of course, Iraq throwing in a bit of a curveball, inviting weapons inspectors to come back to Baghdad for discussions.
I can tell you guys, the White House really pouring cold water on this move, very skeptical. But, Kate and Dana, I'm curious, what are members of Congress saying about this move by Iraq?
BASH: Well, Kelly, you know, what was interesting about what happened in Congress this week is, really, you started to hear the dialogue, the real dialogue on Iraq. Senate Foreign Relations Chairman Joe Biden wanted to start that dialogue. He had a series of hearings. He said he wants to look at, what is the threat of Saddam, what are you going to do to get him out, and what happens afterwards?
They didn't hear from anybody from the administration, as you know, but they heard from analysts and experts. And, frankly, a lot of senators, after those hearings, still felt like they had a lot of questions that they don't have answered still.
SNOW: And most of those analysts seem to be saying it's not a matter of if we're going to attack, it's a matter of when we're going to attack. I mean, the general consensus out of the hearings seemed to be that this is, you know, this is a guy who needs to be displaced, this is a government that needs to be toppled. It's just a matter of when the U.S. government is going to do that.
There doesn't seem, Kelly, to be any consensus from the outside world, looking in, on when that's going to happen. What's it like inside the administration?
WALLACE: No consensus inside either. You can just look at the newspapers, lots of leaks. One day, one incentive is to try and just contain Saddam Hussein. Another day, another story leaks calling for a full-scale invasion.
White House aides kind of chuckle about this. They say there's full-scale speculation going on, that the president doesn't have war plans on his desk. But you get this sense that Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld is looking for more detailed plans, that he's not happy with what he's getting so far, that time is really something of concern for the administration if it wanted to pursue something early next year.
And you get a sense also, no administration officials invited or asked to come up to the Hill. But clearly, members of Congress appear to be sending a message to the president. The message seems to be, this president should come to Congress, it seems, and ask for congressional support before any military action. Is that what you guys are sensing up on the Hill?
BASH: Absolutely. I mean, you heard from even more Republicans this week, almost across the board, save Senator Trent Lott, they really think it's imperative that the president comes to Congress and asks for a resolution before there's any kind of attack on Iraq.
But one thing I will say, in terms of the plans, I talked to one Republican senator who said that, you know, there was a little talk about an October surprise, some kind of attack before the election. And this Republican senator told him the White House told him there's not going to be an attack before November, they don't think so at least.
ARENA: Dana, this is what -- you said "October surprise," and this is what is so puzzling to me. What surprise? You're talking about this out in the open in Congress. What is the rationale...
SNOW: Hey, Kelli, I've got to break in for one second, Kelli.
ARENA: Sorry.
SNOW: We're going to go to President Bush and his weekly radio address now live. We'll take a quick break for that. Let's listen to the president.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Good morning.
We've had a month of accomplishment in Washington. Congress acted on several important proposals to strengthen our national security and our homeland security and our economic security. Republicans and Democrats worked in a spirit of unity and purpose that I hope to see more of in the fall.
I requested more money for our military and for our homeland security, and Congress provided crucial funding to continue military operations, to train and equip medics, police officers and firefighters around America and to support the Coast Guard operations that protect our ports and coasts.
I proposed tough new standards for corporate executives and accountants and increased penalties for fraud and abuse. Congress responded with strong corporate accountability reforms, which I signed into law on Tuesday. And we are rigorously enforcing the laws against corporate crimes with new arrests just this week.
For nearly a year and a half, I've been pressing Congress for trade promotion authority, so I can aggressively push for open trade with other nations. This week the Senate followed the lead of the House by giving me that authority, which I will sign into law next week. Expanded trade will mean more business for America's farmers and ranchers and manufacturers, better buys for American consumers and good jobs for America's workers.
Together we made significant progress on national priorities. Yet when Congress returns from its summer recess, important work remains.
In March, I urged Congress in a time of war to pass the defense budget first. After four months, the House and the Senate have acted on their own bills, but they have not sent me a final bill that works out their differences. When the Congress returns in September, its first priority should be to complete the defense budget so our military can plan for and pay for the war on terror and all of the missions that lie ahead.
The Senate should also act quickly to pass a bill authorizing the new Department of Homeland Security, which it failed to do before the recess. This department will consolidate dozens of federal agencies charged with protecting our homeland, giving them one main focus -- protecting the American people.
And when we create this department, the new secretary of Homeland Security will need the freedom and flexibility to respond to threats by getting the right people into the right jobs at the right time without a lot of bureaucratic hurdles. The Senate must understand that the protection of our homeland is much more important than the narrow politics of special interests.
Congress should also act to strengthen the economic security of all Americans. The Senate must pass reforms to protect workers' savings and investments and reform Medicare to include prescription drug benefits.
Both houses much reach a consensus on final terrorism insurance legislation to spur building projects and create construction jobs. And they must agree on a comprehensive energy bill that will increase production and promote conservation and reduce our dependence on foreign energy sources.
And as we work to strengthen America's economy, we must remember Americans who are struggling. The Senate should follow the House's lead and pass welfare reform that encourages work and promotes strong families. And they should pass legislation to promote the vital work of private and religious charities in helping disadvantaged children and people struggling with addiction, the homeless and many others.
I know in the fall of an election year, the tendency is to focus more on scoring political points than on making progress. I hope the Congress will reject this approach.
In the last month we've proven how much we can get done with every one in Washington works together on behalf of the American people. Come September, I look forward to working with the Republicans and Democrats to build on that progress.
Thank you for listening.
WALLACE: There, the president talking about his domestic priorities, talking about also how this is an election year, the November congressional elections coming about.
And the president gearing up, guys, for a month-long vacation. Aides don't use that word. He'll be away from Washington for about a month. And, Kate, you know on the Hill, people have talked about this. Aides are sensitive, they're saying it's a working vacation. He'll be traveling around the country talking about many of those issues, including the economy.
SNOW: Right. Yes, it's a working vacation, just like Congress takes a recess, not a vacation, for the month of August.
(LAUGHTER)
Kelli, back to Iraq. I wanted to ask you one more thing about that. Yesterday, the Iraqis seemed to make a gesture, anyway. They said that they would now accept U.N. weapons inspectors back into their country again, first time since 1998. Seemed to be like an olive branch, but I guess the administration is not taking it that way.
WALLACE: Not taking it at all, Kate. U.S. officials very skeptical. They have said that they've seen this storyline from Iraq before and that Iraq has yet to change its tune.
But, you know, this could be a complicating factor for the administration, because if that weapons team goes into Baghdad, if there are discussions, if weapons inspectors are actually back inside that country, that could really complicate any plans for this administration to pursue any military action to topple the Iraqi leader.
You just had King Abdullah of Jordan sitting side by side with President Bush earlier this week, making it clear he wants to see dialogue first, weapons inspectors first, before any, any potential military action.
So it could be a complicating factor. Right now, though, Kate, the White House really dismissing this.
SNOW: Kelly Wallace, up in Kennebunkport, thanks.
I think we're going to turn the corner. Next, I'm going to toss it back over to Susan Lisovicz in New York -- Susan.
LISOVICZ: Yes, Kate. Well, has the Bush team done enough to pump up consumer confidence? And why did those new economic numbers rattle Wall Street so? That's the next issue we'll tackle when SATURDAY EDITION continues.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAUL O'NEILL, SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY: The data show that the economy is on a solid growth path and the recovery is proceeding as expected.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LISOVICZ: That was U.S. Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill trying to soothe investors' nerves, but Wall Street seemed to have a different opinion.
Welcome back to SATURDAY EDITION. I'm Susan Lisovicz in New York.
Well, we were already suffering through one of the worst Julys on record for the stock market, and then the mother of all economic reports, the gross domestic product, the GDP, which measures all goods and services, came out on Wednesday.
It said basically that the second quarter barely moved, this after we just came out of the recession in the first quarter. Furthermore, it said that the recession was longer and deeper than we had expected last year, and that even if September 11 hadn't occurred, we still would have been in recession.
This, of course, fueled fears of what we call a double-dip recession. Wall Street didn't like it, and August didn't start out any better than the way July ended.
COHEN: Susan, are there any plans to get us out of this?
LISOVICZ: Well, that's the big question. You know, it's funny, we were talking about how the Bush team is handling the Iraqi crisis, whether -- it's not just a question of if, but when.
Well, this is another delicate thing that the Bush team has to handle, because, typically, Republicans let the markets do what the markets do, they're hands-off. But in this situation we're dealing with a very fragile economy, a stock market that is still deep in a bear market, and we have all this uncertainty in the Middle East.
Yes, the president signed very quickly that corporate fraud act on Tuesday, but that really didn't do very much. Now, did it on Wednesday? Because even though we have that highly publicized, very visual arrest of the WorldCom executives on Wednesday, the market sold off big time because the economy is still fragile.
And it's the Bush team that has to basically say, "Yes, we're pro-business, but yes, we're going to intervene."
There you see Scott Sullivan, the former CFO of WorldCom, being led away -- the biggest corporate bankruptcy on record.
You know, it's a real delicate matter for the Bush team right now, to let the markets do what they do and yet to intervene. There's already talk that Alan Greenspan will enact a 12th rate cut. But those things typically take a while to trickle through the economy.
ARENA: Susan, what about the so-called handcuff indicator? I mean, we did see, you know, reminiscent of the insider trading back in the '80s, people, you know, walking out, doing that perp walk. We saw a little bounce there. I mean, is this at all encouraging on Wall Street, that we were seeing people put in jail for defrauding investors?
LISOVICZ: Well, you know, it certainly has been something that the public, that the shareholders of these companies want to see. But ultimately, whether it's just a media show, as some people have said, or not remains to be seen.
In terms of what we've seen with previous handcuff rallies, well, just the week before, remember we had the Adelphia founders being led away. They had said -- they had complained, basically, that they wanted to surrender, but no, they had the infamous perp walk. And the market rallied in a way that we hadn't seen in a long time. That was very encouraging. In fact, there was even talk that maybe we had finally reached a bottom, that the bear market was over.
And we had seen it with other occasion too, Alfred Taubman, the chairman of Sothebys, who was arrested late last year for conspiracy, anti-trust grounds. There was a market rally on that day. Sam Waksal of ImClone. When he was arrested, there was a rally that day.
ARENA: But no Enron -- Susan, this is Kelli -- no Enron executives. We're heard some criticism from Capitol Hill, saying, you know, Enron, which started this whole debacle, still no movement on that front. What are you hearing, if anything?
LISOVICZ: Well, you know, that's a great question, because Enron really opened the Pandora's box. It, at that time, was the biggest corporate bankruptcy ever, and it was just this complex web of these offshore accounts led by a CFO who personally benefited from them. But since then, Enron's been very quiet.
And I'm really going to bat the question back to you, Kelli, because it seems that the Department of Justice just has its hands full now with all of these investigations. The latest one...
ARENA: Oh, it sure does. It just opened up a new investigation into AOL-Time Warner, parent company of CNN.
LISOVICZ: Our own parent company.
ARENA: Right. So yes, I mean, it does. And very quiet on the Enron front, very quiet.
BASH: And, you know, Kelli, that's something, as you mentioned, that particularly Democrats in Congress, they're not forgetting and they're not going to stop talking about, is Enron. And the goal, of course, is to keep the pressure on Republicans and keep the link there that they think -- that they hope the public will see between Enron and the Republican administration and all of these corporate mishaps, misdeeds and fraud. And they want to keep the pressure on. Of course, the economy is always a winning issue, and they want to keep it going.
ARENA: And getting back to the economy, though, Susan, what I want to know is, what are the fundamentals? Are we seeing a recovery in earnings? Because here I am, we're all looking at our 401(k) and crying -- or not looking at it.
BASH: Yes, that's more like it.
(LAUGHTER)
ARENA: So my question is, what are the fundamentals showing?
LISOVICZ: Well, it clearly shows that the economy is fragile. But I think the key is really consumer spending, consumer confidence. Two-thirds of economic activity is fueled by what we spend on little things and big things.
So we did see, after a series of really disappointing economic reports this week, one of the few bright spots was in auto sales. These are big-ticket items. GM had spectacular numbers, fueled, though, by incentives. In other words, we thought we were getting a good deal, so we were buying.
However, we should also say, that in terms of back-to-school spending, which is very big on retail, we were seeing some warnings from retailers saying, "People aren't coming in. They're not buying." So it's kind of a mixed bag.
And clearly, this is why consumer confidence is so important. If people think their jobs are on the line, if the wealth effect -- in other words, they look at their 401(k) and they do weep, they may not spend as much. And that's critical as to how the economy proceeds.
WALLACE: Susan, it's Kelly Wallace. I wanted to jump in. Speaking of consumer confidence, you know, President Bush has been trying to talk up the economy, saying the foundations are strong, really trying to encourage the American people to think kind of, long term, things are getting better.
Is that message getting through to people on Wall Street? Or are they saying that the president's message is simply not being heard or not effective enough?
LISOVICZ: I don't think it's being heard. I don't think people believe it. You know, clearly, what you saw with the market this week, it was terrible. And the numbers that we're seeing show very clearly that we are still in a very fragile state.
Of course, the president wants to soothe everybody's fears, but right now that message has not been heard.
ARENA: Well, switching gears here, coming up in just two minutes, the anthrax investigation returns to the headlines. Are authorities close to solving the case? The details when CNN's SATURDAY EDITION returns.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ARENA: Welcome back.
The mystery of the deadly anthrax attacks here in the United States took a new twist this week. Federal agents, for the second time, searched the apartment of a former Army researcher that sources now say is a potential suspect.
Steven Hatfill lives near the U.S. Army Bio-Warfare Defense Lab at Fort Detrick, Maryland. He had worked for and in the U.S. government for nearly two decades.
Now, I can tell you, the sources that we have spoken to in law enforcement say that there is a revolving list of about 20 to 30 people that remain under scrutiny in the anthrax investigation.
But for some reason, investigators have kept Steven Hatfill very high on that list. They were back again this week, this time with a search warrant. The first search of his apartment was done consensually. There was even some indication that Hatfill had said, "Come on over, guys, let's clear up my name. You know, look and see what you can find."
And at that point, they were swabbing and looking for any anthrax residue or hint of any anthrax in his home, in a storage facility that he used in Florida. This time, though, the search was broader in scope, I am told by sources. And they're looking -- they pulled out documents and computer material and so on.
So they are very interested in this man. But again, not a suspect, no charges here, and others remain under investigation as well.
COHEN: But do we know why they picked him out? I mean, they must have had some reason why they wanted to go to his house. Probable cause? Do we know?
ARENA: They're not saying. Obviously, to get a search warrant, you have to show probable cause. And so there was something that they were able to present to a judge to say, "We have our suspicions." But they're not saying.
Kate, I know you want to jump in here. I saw that...
SNOW: I was just going to ask you, don't they still have like 50 people essentially, or maybe that number is not right, but I had heard that there were a number of people that they're still looking at. This isn't the only guy.
ARENA: Well, right, as I just said, there's about 20 to 30 people -- and I say 20 to 30 because there are names that drop off, that are added again, different names that come on.
But these are people from, I am told by sources, within the scientific community, people who would have had access to anthrax, people who have the capability, the know-how to deal with this substance. That's not -- you know, that's not everyone in the world. I mean, you can narrow things down a bit. And so we're told 20 to 30, working list. But he just keeps popping up.
BASH: And, Kelli, you know that FBI Director Robert Mueller made a call to Capitol Hill, which is where the target of the attack was, Capitol Hill of course, letters to Senator Daschle, Senator Leahy. He called Senator Daschle and Senator Leahy...
ARENA: Right before this latest search of Steven Hatfill's residence.
BASH: Correct. He calls into them this morning to give them an update. We don't know what that means. He's trying to keep in close contact with them, in terms of how the investigation is going. But that was kind of interesting that he did call them.
ARENA: Kelly, you wanted to say something?
WALLACE: Kelli, it's Kelly Wallace, yes. How much progress do you think they're making? How close do you think they are?
It's interesting when you ask people at the White House this, you know, they really push it off, and say, "That is FBI. That is a Justice Department matter." But you definitely sense some pressure the administration is feeling to show some progress on this investigation, which will be sort of year by this October.
What sense are you getting from the people you talk to?
ARENA: Well, you know, Kelly, there was some discussion actually about -- you know, we had found out about this latest search, you know, of Steven Hatfill's place through, you know, tips from sources. And there is some suggestion out there that perhaps, you know, the FBI does want to show that it is working on this investigation.
I mean, look, they've interviewed 5,000 people in this investigation. They have, you know, issued more than 1,700 grand jury subpoenas. This has been a very aggressive and laborious investigation. But still, no suspects, no arrests 10 months later.
Susan, did I hear you want to say something?
LISOVICZ: Kelli, a question for you is, how delicate is this for the DOJ right now? Not a suspect, but yet going into his apartment, taking away all of these documents on, clearly, a case that is baffling and very difficult to solve. It has to be sort of a tight rope that the DOJ is walking on right now by going into this person's home, but yet saying, "He is not a suspect, and we're not charging him with anything."
ARENA: Exactly. Well, you know, this is -- the way that they get around this is to say this is an investigation, this is an ongoing investigation, and as part of an investigation, you conduct searches of residences and other locations.
Now, this is not the only residence that the FBI has searched. There have been other consensual searches done, at least a dozen we're told, of some other scientists around the country. So this is, this is part of what investigators do.
Now, let's not forget here the Justice Department nor the FBI has ever made one single official comment about Steven Hatfill or anyone else for that matter. They say that they have a bunch of people that they're looking at, and that's all they've said.
And when Director Robert Mueller was asked directly about this last week, he said, "Well, we're making progress." End of story. That's all he had to say.
BASH: You know, Kelli, anthrax and other terrorist attacks are part of the homeland security debate. But that's on hold until senators return from summer break.
What did they get done before they headed home? More on that, plus a news alert, just ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWSBREAK)
BASH: Welcome back to SATURDAY EDITION. I'm Dana Bash.
It's that time of year. Congress sees August on the calender. They head away from the hot, humid national capital, back home to their constituents to blame the other guy for what they didn't get done. This time, that happened to be a prescription drug benefit for seniors on Medicare.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. TOM DASCHLE (D-SD), MAJORITY LEADER: The Republicans cannot say no to the drug companies. They cannot say no to the HMO approach that they have advocated from the very beginning. They are determined to make Medicare an HMO.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. BILL FRIST (R), TENNESSEE: We had an opportunity over the last two and a half weeks to do just that, give seniors affordable access to prescription drugs. Under the Democratic leadership, grade incomplete, seniors denied drugs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: OK, poll after poll say that Americans want prescription drug benefits for Medicare. This week, after two and a half weeks of debate, and votes on Democratic plans that failed, votes on Republican plans that failed. We have nothing, except just divided government at work, I think. It's just politics.
COHEN: You know, it's just amazing -- I'm going to show my age here a little bit. But I was here in Washington 14 years ago covering catastrophic illness care. And they went through this 14 years ago and couldn't figure it out. I mean, you got to wonder, are they ever going to figure out this prescription benefit?
BASH: So what do they say to voters? I mean, they're all heading home. What do they say?
SNOW: You know what they say to voters is we -- both sides are going to say, "I voted for a plan." Because the nitty-gritty of it is that both Democrats and Republicans offered two different plans each, essentially, and they all voted sort of on party lines for their individual plan.
So you'll hear them on the campaign trail, out there in the real world, saying, "Oh, no, no, I voted for a plan." But the thing is, they just couldn't philosophically agree on what the plan should look like, how to deliver it. There's a basic difference on how to do this.
BASH: And to answer your question...
WALLACE: And the question, of course, becomes...
BASH: I'm sorry, Kelly. I was going to say to Kelli Arena, a little anecdote on that question is, you have somebody like Senator Tom Harkin. He's in a tough race against Republican Congressman Greg Ganske. Greg Ganske voted for a bill in the House that actually passed. Tom Harkin, he will privately and maybe sometime soon publicly say he's really upset. Because, although he did vote for plans, he's on record as voting for plans, he has nothing concrete to take home, nothing to take home that actually passed the Senate.
WALLACE: And, Dana, I can tell you, talking to White House officials, I mean, they believe Republicans really have the upper hand here. I mean, you saw Ari Fleischer come into the briefing room the other day, use the podium to make a statement expressing the president's disappointment that the members of the Senate were not able to pass a prescription drug plan.
So the White House really feels Republicans are energized. They can say, "Look, the House of Representatives, led by Republicans, managed to get it done, but the Senate, led by Democratic Leader Tom Daschle, could not get it done."
And, Kate, from the people you talk to, are Democrats really worried about this argument?
BASH: They are, they are.
SNOW: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
BASH: And I was going to tell you a quick little anecdote from a Republican, Kelly, to match what you were just saying, Senator Chuck Hagel. I was talking to him in the hallway the other day. He's a Republican. He said, look, in the past, we used to not even try. The Republicans would sort of concede that Democrats tend to get better points for helping people with their social issues. So they would sort of back off and not offer anything.
He said, this time around, we engaged. We decided we're going to try to offer a prescription drug plan, too. And Senator Hagel was saying that they're now, in their internal polling, running even with the Democrats, in terms of people's perceptions of them trying to do something for their prescription drug costs.
LISOVICZ: You know, Dana...
SNOW: Susan?
LISOVICZ: ... I'm curious, for somebody who's out of the Washington Beltway and, you know, when you see a lot of voter cynicism, but to me it would almost reinforce the fact that politics as usual.
Neither the Democrats nor the Republicans lose in the mid-term elections because they can both blame the other party. Meanwhile, one of the most pressing issues of our time, health care costs, as we have a population that grows older, and nothing has been done.
So does either party get punished in the mid-term elections?
BASH: Well, that's the big question. And that's what they're going home now to talk about, to make sure that each side blames the other guy for what happened. But there are some pretty serious philosophical differences in terms of how you make this happen. And that's something that at least with these votes, some people say, they've identified so that maybe perhaps they can start to bridge those gaps.
ARENA: Well, bottom line though, give me the short version of Plan A versus Plan B, in mean, in terms of what's the big difference?
BASH: The big difference is Republicans would much prefer to give prescription drug benefits outside of Medicare, through private insurance companies. Democrats say, "No, we need to guarantee it. We need to make it through Medicare, through the government." Republicans say, "That's just another government plan." Democrats say the Republicans are trying to give money to the HMOs.
ARENA: So what does the AARP, one of the biggest lobbying groups here in Washington, have to say?
BASH: Well, now AARP is saying "Pox on all of your houses." They say they're just fed up. Initially, they had supported one of the Democrats' plans, but they're all set (ph).
And I will say that this is...
SNOW: Dana, but is this...
BASH: Go ahead, Kate.
SNOW: No, no, I'm sorry. Don't you think that until -- my sense is on Capitol Hill, that until there is just a groundswell -- like right now, a lot of people don't have cheap prescription drugs. A lot of people are really suffering, and Elizabeth could probably talk to this. But not everybody. I mean, my parents, for example, they can afford to pay for their -- they have a good health plan.
And until everybody is in the same boat and everybody is pressuring and calling the AARP and calling their members of Congress, I've heard analysts say it's not going to happen until it reaches that kind of a critical mass.
COHEN: Kate, you hit the nail on the head. The reason why there is no critical mass, just like you said, is that middle-class and upper-middle-class elderly have these Medi-gap plans, so they're set. So basically, what you're battling for is people who have less money. And they sort of maybe haven't coalesced in the way...
ARENA: And less voice...
COHEN: And less voice, exactly.
But as medical correspondent, I do feel compelled to give some advice here. And really, this is for anyone who can't afford prescription drugs, whether you're elderly or not. And that is, ask your doctor for or ask the pharmacist for a generic. People forget about that a lot. There are lot of good generics out there. And also, when your doctor says, "You have to take Celebrex or Viox (ph), let's say, you can say to your doctor, "You know what, those are new, expensive drugs. You see them advertised. What about some of the older pain drugs? Can I try some of those?" Older drugs mean cheaper drugs.
BASH: And I will thing that they actually did get done, we must say, is they did pass a bill in the Senate -- who knows if it's going to become law -- but they did pass a bill to try to make generic brand drugs, which are cheaper, more accessible to people. And they also made it possible to buy drugs, which are also cheaper, from Canada in the United States.
COHEN: Canada, yes, right.
SNOW: Both of which we're not really sure if the White House would go for, ultimately anyway. But they did pass them in the Senate.
Coming up, we're going to talk about another congressional issue of face off between Congress and the FBI, after Congress blew the whistle in the first place over leaks.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SNOW: Welcome back to SATURDAY EDITION. I'm Kate Snow, in Los Angeles this week.
As a House Senate panel has been looking into 9/11 and perhaps the failures of intelligence before September 11th, one thing that came out in the media was that the National Security Agency, the NSA, had uncovered a couple of messages, a couple of intercepted messages, before the attack ever happened. The media seized on those, publicized what those messages were, that an attack was imminent. And that was a giant leak by either the Congress or the administration.
Now the FBI has been asked to look into this by Congress. Congress was upset that the leak happened, and so they asked the FBI to do an investigation. And now, the FBI has apparently talked to a number of members of Congress on that committee, on that joint Senate- House panel, and some of them have been asked whether they would be willing, in the future, to take a lie-detector test.
Now, this is raising all kinds of questions on Capitol Hill, because is it right for the FBI, the judicial branch of government, to be looking over what the Congress is doing, when this is the very committee that's supposed to be looking at what went wrong at the FBI?
Kelli Arena, you know the Justice Department. Tell us what the FBI is doing here. They were asked to do this by the committee in the first place?
ARENA: Well, that's right. Senator Graham, Porter Goss both wrote to the Justice Department, saying we need an investigation. That, of course, after they got a blistering phone call, which Dana can tell you more about, from the vice president, Dick Cheney, saying, "What's going on here? This information is being presented, you know, to Congress, and then all of a sudden, you know, it's out in the media. And, you know, you've got to do something." So they immediately reacted and wrote this letter, and so the FBI starts its investigation.
Some critics have suggested that this should have been done by the Ethics Committee, that you should not have the administrative branch of government investigating the congressional.
But also, even more ironic than that, is that this is the committee that is investigating 9/11. So it's investigating the FBI, and now you have the FBI investigating the committee that's investigating it. So you have this vicious, you know, circle going on, and some said this is going to result in just two really bad investigations.
WALLACE: Kelli Arena, it's Kelly Wallace. You really touched on that point, because, you know, the view from the White House is, look, Congress asked for this and we're confident they'll work it out, lawmakers will work it out with the FBI.
But, you know, you just touched on it. And I have to wonder, is the FBI exerting any more kind of authority or kind of pressure because it's being investigated by Congress? Some of these same lawmakers who have been criticizing the FBI for not handling some warnings before 9/11. Now you have the FBI going to those lawmakers.
ARENA: That is exactly the concern. I mean, you have the fact that you have the FBI conducting an investigation, which means that they're building up dossiers, information, on, you know, members of Congress and their staffers.
Well, then, if I'm a member of Congress, some have suggested perhaps they won't criticize the FBI as much, or that it might impact the ongoing investigation, that either side may be too soft here, that they might not, you know, do the job that they would have normally done because you have this odd relationship.
BASH: Well, here's what you have now. You have, at this point, almost all of the 37 members of the House and Senate intelligence committees who sit on the 9/11 committee have been interviewed.
ARENA: Not yet.
BASH: Almost all of them have been interviewed by the FBI.
And basically, what you have is them starting to feel what the reality is of this investigation. They're being questioned. They say that they're very polite interviews, but they're being questioned.
And many of them, not all of them, are being asked during these interviews if they would be willing to take a polygraph test somewhere down the road. This is making a lot of members of Congress very uncomfortable. Some have said, "Fine, I'll do it because that's part of the investigation and we understand that that's part of the investigation." SNOW: Let's go back, Dana, to why this all happened though. Let's go back to who called for this, and it was the chairman of this very committee. One guy in particular, his name is Porter Goss, he's -- Representative Porter Goss, he's the Republican chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, so he's a very high-ranking guy.
He's a former CIA member himself. He's very conscious of -- to him, it's very serious that these were national security matters, and I know to the White House it's very serious as well. These were NSA, National Security Agency, messages that were intercepted. He thinks this is serious stuff, this should not have gotten out to the media in the first place.
BASH: Right, but, Kate, some critics suggest though that there is a mechanism in place, that you do have the Congressional Ethics Committee that looks into wrong behavior by members of Congress, and a leak would come under bad behavior. So there's a mechanism in place. Where else -- why do you have to go outside of that mechanism?
SNOW: Well, that's what a lot of the members who sit on those committees are starting to realize now. You hear privately -- and you heard privately when they first called for the investigation before, "Nobody asked us, they just kind of did it." Like you said, because they got this angry phone call from Dick Cheney and they had to act, and they did. The leadership didn't even know, I understand. The leadership didn't even know they were going to ask for this kind of investigation of Congress.
LISOVICZ: You know, I have question from the outside here, you know, somebody who works on Wall Street and passes Ground Zero on a daily basis during my work week. At Penn Station, across the street, we've had reinforced security because of continuing threats, fears of new attacks here.
Osama bin Laden, we don't know whether he's dead or alive, what's going to happen in Iraq, the Middle East unraveling. To me, there's almost an sense that we're distracting from the problems at hand. There are real threats that exist.
Is there a sense that there's just too much squabbling over what happened in the past? We know we screwed up. And we know we have a lot of work to do, but there are bigger issues to tackle. Is there any sense of that at all?
BASH: Well, Susan, some...
SNOW: Well...
BASH: Go ahead.
SNOW: Well, I think Congress is tackling both, Susan. I mean, they are looking ahead. They're having hearings, you know, constantly, looking at the threat of terrorism. But they also have this one group that's been looking backwards.
And when we come back from the August recess, Congress is going to start again with public hearings, where you're going to see people probably like Robert Mueller from the FBI sitting in a public room, you know, on television, on CNN, talking about what went wrong on 9/11...
ARENA: But, Kate, there's...
(CROSSTALK)
SNOW: ... dual efforts.
ARENA: The looking back, though, has resulted in changes right now. You have, according to officials from all agencies across the board, a greater level of communication. You have a greater level, not only among federal agencies, but on to your state and local agencies as well, who are really on the front lines of fighting terrorism.
So in the looking back and learning from past mistakes, across the board officials agree that you have a stronger intelligence community in place now to deal with the terror threat.
COHEN: Well, you know, Susan mentioned real problems versus sort of political problems. And up next, we're going to talk about a real problem. How West Nile disease is deadly serious and how people are fighting back.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. ROY CAMPBELL, CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL AND PREVENTION: When people have a virus in their environment that's spread by mosquitoes and infecting their brains, it's always a public health crisis. But it's not time for panic.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COHEN: Dr. Roy Campbell of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
Welcome back to SATURDAY EDITION. I'm Elizabeth Cohen.
It's a war out there in many states this summer, not against terrorism or child abduction or any of the other high-profile risks to modern life. West Nile disease has killed four people in Louisiana this year, and the virus has been found in more than 30 states.
Now, I'm going to sort of go off of what the CDC doctor said just now. It sounds very scary. Four deaths in Louisiana; there have been 58 cases. I mean, that's obviously a very scary, not-a-good thing.
But the reason why they're saying don't panic is that if you get bit my a mosquito, you have a less than 1 percent chance of getting a severe illness. The elderly are much more at risk. Of the four who died, one was in their 50s, which isn't terribly elderly, and the other three in their 70s and in their 80s. So you figure how many infected mosquitoes are there out there in Louisiana? A whole lot, and there have only been 58 cases.
BASH: My question for you, Elizabeth, is how do you know you have it? Because the symptoms seen to be very kind of common...
COHEN: Right, flu-like...
BASH: ... flu-like symptoms.
COHEN: Oh, yes.
BASH: So what do you do?
COHEN: Well, let's talk about the symptoms a little bit. Headache, fever, rashes -- mild. And then when it gets more severe, you can go into a coma, paralysis. I mean, it can get very scary, and obviously you don't want it to get there.
So what you do is, if you're in a state that has West Nile virus and you start to feel this way, you know what, better safe than sorry. Go see your doctor, you know.
(CROSSTALK)
WALLACE: Well, I will just tell you guys, this story hit a little close to home, because a little more than a week ago at the White House a dead crow was found -- two were actually found -- and one tested positive for the West Nile virus.
So this got a little bit of concern. Is there any kind of mosquito alert or West Nile virus alert at the White House? I'm told it's not the first time. This has happened before.
But, Elizabeth, back to you, any extra precautions people should take, whether it be people in the District of Columbia or in Louisiana, again, to prevent, in any way, prevent from being infected by this virus?
COHEN: Well, I've got to tell you, finding the dead birds is a sign that it could come to people. That's sort of seen as like sort of the harbinger. I mean, you look for that, and then you sort of wonder about people.
What you can do, there are actually some very simple precautions. Number one, if there are stagnant pools of water anywhere near your house, like you kids left a toy out, one little bucket of water in seven days can breed a 1,000 mosquitoes. OK, so you want to get rid of those stagnant pools of water.
ARENA: I'm itchy.
COHEN: You're itching already, I know.
(LAUGHTER)
It just makes you go, yick.
The other thing is, wear long clothing when you're outside, and cover yourself with mosquito spray, the kind that has Deet.
And these are just very common-sense things...
ARENA: Well, you mentioned kids, Elizabeth. This is want to know, the mother of three toddlers. How susceptible -- I know the elderly are susceptible, but are children, young children, susceptible too?
COHEN: I have not seen that. I have not seen -- often you'll see in illnesses, they'll say the elderly and young people. I have not seen them say young people with this disease. And the deaths have been among elderly people.
ARENA: Because I always worry about putting that bug spray on an infant, you know, that...
COHEN: I know. Well, for children under three, there are certain precautions that you need to take and certain things you can look for.
Susan Lisovicz, I know you have a question.
LISOVICZ: Well, because the West Nile virus has also been found in the New York City metro area. And the way I understand it, is that there's no known cure for the virus. And even the spraying that would be undertaken to prevent it was a controversy in itself, that that in fact may pose health hazards.
Can you address either of those?
COHEN: Sure, you're absolutely right that the -- that there is no cure for this. There's nothing you can do. If you have it, there's not a specific thing that they can do.
However, there are things that they can do to sort of help your immune system. There's sort of, what they call, supportive care.
And obviously, I mean, most people who get this do not die of it, and I think that's really important to remember. It's also important to remember that people don't give it to each other.
The public health authorities are, despite whatever news has been out there, are still recommending spray with a Deet-based mosquito spray to keep the mosquitoes away from you.
SNOW: Which, Elizabeth, I wasn't wearing when I gardened a couple of nights ago...
(LAUGHTER)
... in Washington, D.C. So I have bug bites. In all seriousness, I have bites all over me. I'm sure everybody does.
Is there anything you can see? Is there any -- like, does the bite change or anything like that, other than the symptoms of flu?
COHEN: No, I don't think there's anything on the bite itself that changes. And in fact, it takes several days for even the symptoms to show up. So it is not something that you would know automatically.
ARENA: But has this thing getting stronger? Is there a different strain? I mean, you have four people dead in Louisiana. That is a swamp land. You have -- I'm sure there are many more mosquitoes there than there are here.
Is it a stronger strain? Is there something out there that's different from what we've seen on the East Coast?
COHEN: You know, they're not quite sure why this appears to be happening in Louisiana in the numbers that it's happening in. There's some thought that there was, perhaps, a longer mosquito breeding season, which is why sort of at the end of the summer, now you see the ramifications of that. It could be that the species of mosquito that's getting the infection is perhaps slightly different than it was before. It's really -- it is not clear. It is not clear.
But, you know, one thing that I think is important to point out is that the Louisiana health authorities are saying, "Look, we've got to be honest about this. We're probably going to see more cases and more deaths."
BASH: Sounds like something we're just going to have to live with.
COHEN: Exactly. Exactly.
BASH: Just try to prevent it and try to take precautions.
COHEN: Right. You can't stop mosquitoes at the border. I mean, no matter how hard you try, there's...
(LAUGHTER)
... they don't carry passports, right.
(LAUGHTER)
BASH: That's not part of the homeland security plan.
(LAUGHTER)
COHEN: We'll try, we'll try.
And it's not even like, you know, a dog bites you, you can get the dog tested for rabies. Well, you can't really test a mosquito that bit you and flew away.
So this is probably something we're going to have to live with, in the same way that in the winter time, unfortunately, we live with the flu which kills thousands of elderly people every winter. This isn't going to get to thousands, I don't think, but we will be hearing about this.
And you know, it started in '99, so for us, this is sort of new thing. My guess is years from now we won't be thinking of this as really a new thing anymore -- Kelly.
WALLACE: Yes, Elizabeth, I have sort of a very bizarre question, but a sign of the times we live in. Because when that dead crow was found at the White House, some people were raising questions, could someone have intentionally tried to get that bird on the White House grounds as some type of terrorist attack?
(LAUGHTER)
Secret Service officials said, "Absolutely not." But, you know, in the sign of the times, any health officials raising concerns that there's any kind of man-made push to spread this virus around the country.
COHEN: Well, but I've got to tell you, you're not going to get this disease from handling that bird. I mean, people handle birds with West Nile virus all the time in their backyard. They just put on a pair of gloves and -- you know, you're not going to get it from the bird. So if they were trying to get the president sick by putting a bird on his lawn, well, that was a pretty dumb idea -- Kate.
SNOW: OK, we're going to have to leave it at that.
Thanks, a lot of good information there, Elizabeth.
Thank you also for watching CNN's SATURDAY EDITION. I'm Kate Snow in Los Angeles.
A news alert is just ahead, followed by People in the News with Austin Powers star Mike Myers.
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