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On the Story
U.S. is putting more muscle into the fight against insurgents on ground, in air
Aired December 27, 2003 - 10:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Welcome to CNN's ON THE STORY, where our journalists have the inside word on the stories we covered this week. I'm Jeanne Meserve, ON THE STORY of a country on guard, on edge over a possible new terrorism attack.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: I'm Suzanne Malveaux ON THE STORY of the Bush administration basking in new public approval. At the same time, President Bush wrapping up a very challenging year.
RYM BRAHIMI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Rym Brahimi in Baghdad ON THE STORY of how the U.S. is putting more muscle into the fight against insurgents on the ground and on the air.
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: And I'm Barbara Starr, ON THE STORY of how the U.S. military is part of the terrorism fight, both overseas, and here at home. We'll go live to Tripoli to talk to Andrea Koppel about her exclusive interview with Libyan leader, Moammar Gadhafi. Jeanne Meserve also will talk about the jury decision to spare from execution accused D.C. sniper, Lee Malvo. And we'll listen to the president's weekly radio address at the end of the hour.
E-mail us at onthestory@CNN.com. Now, straight ahead to Jeanne Meserve and the terrorism threat.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOM RIDGE, HOMELAND SECURITY DIRECTOR: Be vigilant, and beware, and let the security professionals, the law enforcement community, federal, state, and local officials, worry about your security.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MESERVE: Tom Ridge, homeland security secretary, at the White House on Monday, saying, get on with your lives, despite new concerns about terrorism. Meanwhile, here in Washington and around the country, higher security and higher anxiety. I spoke to the secretary yesterday and he said he was relieved that the country had made it through the Christmas holiday without any incident, but New Year's coming up. Large gatherings on tap all across the country. They're worried about that but no plans at this date to cancel anything because they don't have intelligence that would warrant that. STARR: You know, Jeanne, I think like most Americans, we look at this for the last several days, and the question is, what now? How long does this go on? Is there really a threat still?
MESERVE: They said from the onset it will go on through the holiday period at least. I've talked to some officials who have been briefed on some of this. They expect this could last all the way through the month of January, just because of the volume of the intelligence that they're getting.
STARR: And what's their best sense right now? You know, we've seen the whole Air France situation this week. Still, hijacking the major concern, a dirty bomb? What do they think?
MESERVE: Well, I think there's been a lot of intelligence that's come in recently about the airline threat and this possible use of airplanes as weapons in a suicide attack. But officials say they're worried about the whole range of possible threats. We know that al Qaeda has been working very hard to obtain or steal or develop a dirty bomb, also, chemical and biological weapons.
You know, Barbara, that they've deployed teams or have them, I should say, on a heightened alert status to be deployed should there be any incident that could respond to any of those sorts of things. So I think they're concerned across the gamut because they don't have, we know, the very specific sort of intelligence that allows them to anticipate exactly when and where, and how a strike might occur.
BRAHIMI: Well, that's something that I wanted to ask you, Jeanne. You see, here in Baghdad, it's pretty obvious that there are intelligence threats cited by intelligence sources, and it's a pretty obvious place to have that kind of threat, especially after the capture of Saddam Hussein. But I want to know what kind of conversation may have taken place where you are, in order to raise that threat level. And is it maybe stretching out the resources with what's going on in Iraq? Which is affecting which more? I mean does it give them more work to do because they're in Iraq and it's difficult for them to look after homeland security, or is it the other way around, that it's difficult to look after Iraq because they have to look after security threats at home?
MESERVE: Well, the part of it that I cover concerned mostly the domestic situation here. What Secretary Ridge will say is that there's a lot more capability to respond now, that they've matured somewhat at the Department of Homeland Security, which of course just started up a little bit more than a year ago, and that state and local governments have a much better capacity to respond now than they did. Many people will tell you it's still imperfect, but it's better.
Barbara, maybe you can address the possibility -- possibly what Rym is raising here, the military component...
STARR: Well, you know, that's a very interesting question. A lot of emergency response teams on standby for any potential, unthinkable disaster, military teams, Energy Department teams, Homeland Security teams, but there's only so many people in the United States that know how to do this type of work. And there's some number of them that are military reservists and are in Iraq still conducting that hunt for the weapons of mass destruction. So there is a bit of a tradeoff, I think, constantly, within the administration on how to allocate resources here at home, in the United States, and abroad to deal with threats there. It's an ongoing problem.
MALVEAUX: Jeanne, one of the things that I noticed when I was speaking with my sources over the week, they called it kind of the "Chicken Little" factor here where it's -- you know, what is the threshold you have to arrive at before you actually bring out all the forces here and say, OK, we're going to up the security alert. It's going to cost billions of dollars, perhaps even make the public afraid. Already, the administration is getting criticism from some security experts who say, look, you know, you put all this out here, nothing has happened, and perhaps even warned some of these people aboard the flights who never showed up, that might have gone ahead and might have exposed some sort of plot. What was that? Can you go through and tell us how did they reach that threshold, and how are they responding to this criticism?
MESERVE: Well, it's very murky when they reach that threshold. It's a very difficult to define. What officials tend to say is that they get an accumulation of evidence, which leads them to the step of raising the threat level. They don't take it lightly. It is extraordinarily expensive to do this. It puts people on edge. It's why they haven't done it for six months. They've become much more judicious about when they do it. This time, they felt it was absolutely necessary.
On the Air France business, they tried very hard to keep those cancellations under their hat just as long as they possibly could because they did want everybody who was slated to be on those aircraft to show up because they wanted to question them. On that first flight, a number did. They were detained by the French. They were interrogated. A number of people did not show up, including someone who was a licensed pilot with a commercial license. That's someone they want to talk to. And people, of course, did not show up for those second and third flights because they did know they were canceled. But what could they do? I mean 400 people weren't going to be showing up in Los Angeles. Sooner or later that news was going to get out, and it did. But it got out, they hoped as late as possible. Now, as to whether they really thwarted a terrorist plot there, U.S. officials say they just don't know yet. If they do know, they're certainly not telling us.
STARR: What about the bottom-line here about aviation security abroad because that seems to be one of the concerns you hear from everyone in the government? What should Americans think when they travel, perhaps, on their vacation into airports in other countries? How secure are they?
MESERVE: It varies from country to country. Frankly, there are not international standards right now for what has to happen on the ground at airports around the world to make sure that passenger screening and baggage screening is anything near to what it is here. And some will tell you even in those countries where they have adopted some kind of standards, they often are not enforced. So it's very problematic.
Now, I did speak to the secretary yesterday. He insisted that international conversations are taking place on this subject that they are working with other countries to impress upon them the necessity of improving airline security all across the board. In addition, you know, he held out the fact that there are extraordinary steps the U.S. could take. There could be more cancellations down the road if they have specific intelligence, which makes them worry about a specific flight. In addition, they can deny landing rights if it came to that. If a flight was in the air and something came up that caused them great concern, they can cancel. So they're moving. They're trying. And they're pushing on air marshals, too, trying to get other countries to move on that front.
BRAHIMI: Well, from the war on terrorism to the day-to-day fighting here in Iraq, I'm back on that story in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT, DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF OPERATIONS, COALITION PROVISIONAL AUTHORITY: Coalition forces are using a wide variety of ordnance to include artillery, Army and Air Force aviation to attack specified targets used in the past by the enemy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BRAHIMI: That was Brigadier Mark Kimmitt, deputy director of operations for the Coalition Provisional Authority here in Baghdad where the U.S. forces have launched "Operation Iron Grip" against the insurgents, an operation on the ground and from the air. Now, despite the launching of that operation, that we were told by U.S. military spokesmen, that the reason this was taking place was actually to prevent the insurgents from actually striking with the intensity they had planned to, according to their intelligence sources. They expected full well an increase in operations by the insurgents. Well, despite that, there have been really several operations on the part of the insurgents as well.
I can really say the past three, four days, have been almost nonstop fighting, if you will. And the main -- the most -- big event, if you will, is today's bombs in Karbala, the holy city of Karbala, about an hour and a half drive south from the Iraqi capital. Now, we understand that there were several areas hit, at least three areas, two military compounds, housing multinational forces, and city hall in Karbala. Now, we understand that at least five military have been killed. We're not sure exactly what their nationalities are. It looks like several are Bulgarian. But it seems that apart from the 37 wounded that have been counted so far among military and civilians, there are also many civilians that have probably died in those blasts.
MALVEAUX: Rym, you have an extraordinary perspective from where you sit, very unique from all the rest of us, and you've been there before, during and after the war in Iraq. Can you give us a sense of what is it like now compared to some of those times, particularly Christmas in Baghdad? Was there a real sense of fear, of frustration? How would you set the mood today?
BRAHIMI: You know it is fascinating to see all these changes, and at the same time, how these changes are taking place and how the people here see them. Last year's Christmas was very different. It was under the threat of war. Of course, there was this very repressive regime and everybody was afraid to really talk openly, but they did go ahead and celebrate Christmas. There were lights in the streets. They went to mass and they had their celebration for Christmas and the end of the New Year. This year is very strange. I mean, of course, now, there's the freedom, so when I went to attend the mass, to see what was going on there, the priest could very freely talk and didn't have to bless the former Iraqi president, Saddam Hussein, in their prayers, but at the same time, several Christians didn't show up. Many of the people that I spoke to said they weren't going to go to church even this year for mass because of the security situation. In fact, the midnight mass was canceled and brought forward to 5:00 p.m. on Christmas Eve because of that. And in the main church where the patriarch was officiating, in the Kalian Church (ph), well, there was police all around, so a very, very different atmosphere. And people, you know, -- as one woman put it to me when I asked her, she said, "What celebration? Do you see a celebratory mood around here anywhere?"
MESERVE: You mentioned the intensification of the U.S. campaign against the insurgents. Is it, in fact, at this point, looking counterproductive, although -- as if it's spurring the insurgents to greater violence?
BRAHIMI: You know that's a very good question. It's actually the question of the moment. It seems from a distance, at any rate, from where we stand, that, you know, you had the capture of Saddam Hussein, and then right after that, U.S. forces capitalized on that capture and started launching raids and operations all around the Sunni triangle. Now, they said that they had intelligence that on the 24th, 25th, and the 26th, there would be an increase of attacks by insurgents. So they went ahead and launched "Operation Iron Grip," but it didn't seem to prevent anything. I mean the -- on Christmas Day, you should have heard the noise around here, on Christmas Eve even at night. There was heavy aircraft activity. There was a lot of artillery, a lot of gunfire in the street. And then, Christmas morning, we here in the Palestine Hotel were woken up at 6:00 a.m. by a loud bang. It was the sound of a rocket hitting the Sheraton Hotel nearby. And all through Baghdad, there was something like eight rocket attacks, hitting the Turkish embassy, the Iranian embassy, the Green Zone even, where the coalition authority has their headquarters. So it's a good question as to whether or not they're maybe provoking more action or whether just deliberately each side, the U.S. forces and the insurgents, are determined each to show that they're not going to be deterred.
STARR: Now, Rym, of course, it's been several days since the capture of Saddam Hussein. What is the read in Baghdad with the coalition and military authorities on whether they now think Saddam was behind some of this insurgency movement, whether or not he was directing it, and if he was, why are the attacks still continuing? BRAHIMI: Well, again, that's another one of main questions that people are trying to figure out here. You know, a lot of people think that Saddam Hussein may have been behind a lot of these attacks. But -- then you also have all these conspiracy theories. Remember that this is a region where conspiracy theories really have a life of their own, and so, of course, a lot of people think that the Americans may have captured Saddam maybe a week, two weeks, before they actually announced it. Some people think that Saddam is actually on the side of the Americans, somehow that the U.S. forces are just using him and his presence to maintain their occupation. I mean there are a lot of such theories going by, closing by.
On the other hand, of course, if you want to look at more factual notions of what's happening here, definitely, that the U.S. forces or U.S. military that we've spoken to seem to indicate that documents they've found when they captured Saddam did indicate that there was a lot of information going back and forth between the insurgents and Saddam. Some of the council members, the governing council members I spoke to, however, said they didn't think it was necessarily the case that he was directing these operations, but that there were people among the insurgents who just wanted to send him messages saying this is what we're doing and we're doing it for the cause.
STARR: Well, Rym, we want to thank you for joining us today. It's been great talking with you again. What's ON THE STORY for you in the coming days?
BRAHIMI: Well, in the coming days, I'm going to prepare -- I wanted it to be a surprise, but since you ask me so nicely, I wanted to prepare an end of year piece, exactly that -- what we were talking about, looking at what it was like in Baghdad this time last year and what does Baghdad look like now, basically, what a difference a year makes. And hopefully you'll keep your eyes open for that.
STARR: Well, I'll be looking for it.
Now, from Iraq to Libya, a diplomatic breakthrough and in an exclusive interview with Moammar Gadhafi by our colleague, Andrea Koppel. We're back ON THE STORY after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COL. MOAMMAR GADHAFI, LIBYIAN PRESIDENT: I told you we haven't these weapons, WMD. To avoid any suspicions, we have decided to get rid of these machines, of these things, these programs completely.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT: That was Libyan leader. Moammar Gadhafi, who has been in power here in Libya for the last 34 years, in his exclusive interview with us earlier this week. It was quite an experience, much -- very much unlike any other interview that I've ever done with a world leader in that there wasn't a set time. We arrived in Tripoli on Sunday night not knowing exactly when our interview would be, made calls obviously Sunday night and Monday morning, and then got a phone call about 11:00 a.m., saying, get downstairs, which we did. We gathered our equipment and went down there, and then we were driven to a couple of different locations. One of them was about 30 minutes outside of Tripoli, the capital where I am right now. We drove to several entrances, a lot of guards there. Finally, we were ushered into what was really a large, secluded rural compound, waited outside of what we were told was a guest house, had some orange soda, and then finally, were brought over to this large tent. Colonel Gadhafi is the son of a Bedouin, and he likes to think of himself still as having those roots to his people. This was a very large tent. It was kind of a perma-tent, build on concrete, complete with flies, which is why during the interview, you saw Colonel Gadhafi, and even myself, trying to swat the flies off our faces.
Usually when I've done interviews with world leaders, they like to sit in very formal chairs. There were a couple nice chairs there with fabric on them that we had set up, and we were told by his colleagues, no, no, no, the leader likes to sit in these plastic chairs, the sort that you would see out in your patio year round. On the table in front of him there was the green book, which is the equivalent for the Libyans of the little red book in China, with all of the leaders quotations and various sayings. There was a small book, also, on his vision for an Israeli/Palestinian state known as Israetine. There were three pens. There was also a Bulgari sunglass holder because the leader likes to wear sunglasses. And then, when he pulled up for the interview, again, you know, we didn't know how he was going to arrive. He pulled up in what looked like a Jeep or a Range Rover, and he was in the front seat next to the driver. And he got out wearing this maroon outfit with this cape over his arm and just kind of walked up and shook my hand, and then the interview began.
MESERVE: Andrea, this is a guy who has been vilified. He's been ridiculed. I'd love to ask you what your impression of the man is after having spent this time with him.
KOPPEL: Jeanne, he was very subdued. I -- as you have, I'm sure, seen him give a very fiery, very vitriolic speeches over the years. This was a man who was extremely calm. He speaks fluent English. And in our interview, he did respond to some questions in English, but then switched into Arabic. He seemed very mellow, to be quite honest with you. He looked to be quite a bit younger than the 60-some odd years that he is believed to be. And he also seemed to be very almost laid back. Again, I know that some of our colleagues have interviewed him when he was very aggressive and in their face. That was not the Moammar Gadhafi that I experienced during our hour-long chat.
STARR: Andrea, most of us of course have not been to Tripoli. Have you had a chance to look around the city? What's it like there? Are there all the modern conveniences? What's it like when you go around town?
KOPPEL: This really is a country of contrasts, Barbara. On the one hand, it's an Islamic state, but it's also a socialist republic. Socialism here is rusting, to say the very least. It has failed. We're told that salaries were frozen back in 1973. There are no street addresses here, if you can believe it. You can go down a street. And we were told by one person that, you know, when you go to someone's house, you say where do you live? He doesn't say No. 17 Branch Avenue; he says go down past such and such a shop. When you see the big oak tree, take a left, and then you know that other place. There is no mail service here.
One of our friends, his mother was -- is a teacher in a school here and she showed up for -- she showed up at her home early, and he said what are you doing here? She said, well, the school was flooded. Even though they get very heavy rains, there is no sewage system. Things just don't work here, which is another reason why Moammar Gadhafi has made, among the many reasons, the decision to try to get out from under 20 years of sanctions and get some foreign investment in this country because people need to have jobs. They need to have some other sources of income beyond this state.
It's obviously, as I said, Islamic. There are all kinds of mosques around here. People are very religious. You see the women wearing the hajab. But you also see -- you know, you have e-mail, but for instance, we've been trying to use e-mail for the last couple of days and it was just shut down. You couldn't get...
MALVEAUX: Andrea, I am told that one of the reasons why President Bush, as well as British Prime Minister Blair actually believe that he was willing to disarm is because he was so open, his regime, in showing -- allowing you to take photos and samples from some of these nuclear laboratories. I understand you got a chance to visit. I mean the first time in what, 20 years; a western journalist got to visit one of those sites. What did you see? And what did he say about the reason for actually disarming and coming clean?
KOPPEL: Well, I should -- one caveat, I'm eight months pregnant, so I myself did not visit the nuclear research facility at Dujura, but my two colleagues, cameraman, Darren Bull (ph), and my producer, Iman Moyelden (ph), visited and took some -- the first pictures in 20 years that western journalists have been able to see inside this facility. This is a facility that the International Atomic Energy Agency has known about. This is the site that they had visited regularly since 1983. And it is not believed to be a site that has, you know, anything illegal going on inside it. What we have since learned in the last week is that Libya, for at least the last year, 10 years, perhaps longer, has had nine additional sites at which they've been producing fusel materials, things of that nature. So we were able to see -- and in fact, Mohamed ElBaradei, the IAEA director, is here in Libya today to spend the next couple of days negotiating a new agreement.
MESERVE: Andrea, thanks a lot. When are you coming home?
KOPPEL: I'm hoping to leave on Tuesday.
MESERVE: I'm sure your doctors will be relieved. Andrea, thanks so much.
And from Libya to life and death deliberation here in the United States, after a break and the check of what's making headlines at this hour. I'm back ON THE STORY of the jury sparing the life of sniper, Lee Malvo.
ANNOUNCER: Jeanne Meserve is a correspondent in CNN's Washington bureau. She joined CNN in 1993 and covers homeland security for the network. She is a former correspondent for ABC.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWSBREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's going to have to spend the next 80 -- 70, 80, years of his life in prison, thinking about the enormous pain and devastation he's caused all the victims.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MESERVE: Kelly Thorton (ph), one of the jurors whose vote convicted Lee Malvo of murder, but also spared him from execution. Welcome back. We're ON THE STORY. This, of course, is nowhere near the end of the line for Lee Malvo or John Muhammad. There are a number of other jurisdictions, a number of other prosecutors who want to get a crack at these guys down the road.
STARR: What's the real read on this? Why did the jury go this way, Christmas holidays, his age?
MESERVE: A lot of people have talked about Christmas, but I think age probably had a lot more to do with it. This is a young man. He was 17 when the crimes were committed. He was 15 when he first linked up with John Muhammad. And I talked to a jury on the Muhammad case. This was an individual who sentenced Muhammad to a death sentence, who said, "You know, if I had been on this jury, even though the facts were the same" -- and in some instances they were more incriminating -- she said, "I couldn't have voted for the death penalty here because he was 17 years old." And this particular juror had a 17-year-old son of her own.
MALVEAUX: And Jeanne, how do you think the defense played when they talked about temporary insanity? It seemed as if that didn't gain much traction, but certainly, I guess, towards the penalty phase, they thought that it was worth it to spare his life.
MESERVE: No, it obviously didn't work the way they wanted it to because he was found guilty on all three of the charges against him. But it was a very clever maneuver on the part of the defense team to put all of that mental health testimony out there early and have people thinking about the evaluations that had been done of him and, also, to have heard all the testimony about his childhood. They put on a battery of witnesses who've known him before he met John Muhammad. And all of the ones the defense put on testified to what a smart kid this was, what an obedient and respectful child this was. And apparently, it did have some effect.
I will say on the other hand, the prosecution put on a mental health expert who indicated there had been some problems with this young man, that he'd engaged in certain kinds of behavior, which showed he did have some -- perhaps some tendencies. One of the things that was brought up repeatedly was the fact that as a child he had gone out and stoned cats. Apparently, he had a cat as a young child. He had kept it in his bed. It soiled the bed. His mother beat him as a result, so he chased off that cat and then sort of had this thing for hunting down cats. He'd take a slingshot and ball bearings and go out after them. The numbers vary greatly on how often he did that. But clearly, the prosecution felt this was an explosive issue and they went back to it time and time again in the course of the trial.
STARR: Now, does this verdict of life have any legal standing or bearing on any future proceedings?
MESERVE: No, I think that -- I'm not a lawyer. I'm not a legal expert. I have to always caution that. But my understanding is no, each jurisdiction will start with a clean state and go in and try and get -- I'm sure, will try and get a death penalty against him.
STARR: And how are the families of the victims now reacting to this verdict?
MESERVE: Well, those who spoke were quite upset about this. They wanted to see a death sentence in this trial. They did not get it. I'll tell you, the family I really wanted to hear from did not speak and that's the family of Linda Franklin. She's the FBI analyst who was shot in the Home Depot parking lot. That's what the central murder in this prosecution. All through the trial and even in the pretrial motions, her husband was in the courtroom, also her daughter, Katrina Hammond (ph) in the courtroom for much of this trial. All the families had victim advocates with them, which allowed them to distance themselves from the press, and most kept some distance but became more approachable as time went on. The Franklin family was not like that. They kept us very much at arm's length, made it very clear through their body language that they did not want to have anything to do with us. It was very interesting, in a society where you see so many people venting their grief and their opinion publicly, to have this family choose to do otherwise. And I would love to hear their thoughts on this. We know they were upset. Katie Hammond (ph) cried in the courtroom. But I'd love to have a conversation to find out more.
STARR: See what they really felt?
MESERVE: Yes, because that -- the testimony from that family was fascinating and key in this case. Katie had got up during the penalty phase and talked about her mother in very glowing terms and with humor, too. Clearly, it affected a lot of the jurors. And Ted Franklin, although his testimony was quite short, in the penalty phase of this, they did play the famous 911 tape of him calling in. And I have to tell you I have listened to few things as gripping. Many of us in the press corps listen to things like 911 tapes routinely. We think we're jaded. The press corps was in tears during that. It wasn't just the jury, it wasn't just the family, everyone in the courtroom, including the task force members, were wiping their eyes.
STARR: And did Malvo -- did Malvo ever show any reaction? MESERVE: No, not much. Some days, he was almost frivolous in the courtroom. You'd see him laughing with his attorneys and he'd be doodling and he'd be chewing on a piece of candy and he just seemed totally out of touch with the gravity of what was happening around him. During this kind of testimony, he was not laughing. But from what I could see, from my vantage point, he was mostly staring ahead or staring at the people who were testifying, or staring at the table. Occasionally, he'd lower his head. But in terms of remorse, no. I didn't see anything, from where I was sitting in the courtroom.
MALVEAUX: Jeanne, what is his life going to be like now, for Lee Malvo? And do you know if there's any opportunity where he would ever see John Muhammad before Muhammad is sentenced to death?
MESERVE: I would think it's going to be unlikely that he'd see John Muhammad anywhere except in a courtroom. Malvo, you'll remember, was brought into Muhammad's trial several times for identification purposes but never testified. Malvo's attorneys wanted to bring Muhammad into the room. He'd made it clear he wasn't going to testify, but they wanted him to come in so the jurors could see the discrepancy in their ages, and in their size. In the end, the judge did not allow that to happen.
But what will his life be like? You can just imagine. This kid's 18 years old, and there is no prospect for him except a jail cell for the rest of his life. So it must be a pretty depressing prospect. So, clearly, some would say and some wouldn't, I guess, the alternative was worse.
STARR: Well, from the D.C. snipers, to the U.S. military, facing off challenges at home and abroad. I'm back ON THE STORY after this.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: It costs money and it causes stress on military and civilian at all levels of government. Therefore, you do not do it lightly. You ask, is it serious? Yes, you bet your life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
STARR: Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld at a Pentagon briefing on Tuesday, talking about the decision this week to raise the terror alert. Welcome back. We're ON THE STORY. And what the secretary's point really was is that this is not something the administration did lightly. It costs money. It costs manpower, more stress on the military force at a time when they're already plenty busy around the world. So when Don Rumsfeld says it's serious, most people believe him. It's, it's -- it is.
MALVEAUX: Barbara, you bring up a good point here because -- I mean they estimated, what, about $1 billion a week. Local and state officials complain all the time when they raise this terror alert. How did the military -- how did they see the level of intelligence? How good do they think it was this time around to raise the level because this has happened before?
STARR: That's exactly right. As Jeanne says, terror alert fatigue, everything gets tired of hearing the same thing. By all accounts, the military has the same view as the intelligence community. It was the volume. It was the credibility, although no specific information about a particular time and place. But they really felt by all accounts they had no other decision that they could make. There was a feeling -- as one source said to me, this was true orange.
MESERVE: Now, I've talked about the domestic threat. What about internationally? What are they afraid of overseas?
STARR: Well, this week, the story perhaps that didn't quite, in the mix of everything else, get as much attention, were these assassination attempts against the Pakistani president, General Pervez Musharraf. Again, assassins making an effort, twice in 12 days, to assassinate this man. Every indication that, perhaps, al Qaeda or Islamic extremists in Pakistan are behind it and if there is another attempt -- and as people say, God forbid, they're successful -- this is a nightmare scenario for the war on terrorism.
MESERVE: What would the impact be on the war...
STARR: The impact would be remarkably significant. Pervez Musharraf is the closest ally. He is the man directing the Pakistani military to hunt for Osama bin Laden in their country, to hunt for al Qaeda. If he were to either be overthrown or assassinated, the general assessment is that Pakistan -- there is a good chance it will fall into massive chaos and instability. Not clear at all that the U.S. administration could do anything about it. And the really fascinating question here is, if, God forbid it was proven to be al Qaeda, as we say, the Bush administration has vowed, of course, President Bush, Suzanne, to fight terrorism wherever he finds it. What would they do in Pakistan?
MALVEAUX: And certainly, Barbara, I mean it would be politically devastating as well for the Bush administration if that were to happen. I wonder -- and this question keeps coming up here. You have the fall of the Taliban, the Iraq War, even the capture of Saddam Hussein, and Barbara, I think I remember you asking this question just this past week, how is it that the terror alert level was actually raised in light of all of these things that the administration brings up, and they say Americans are more secure and more safe than they were several years ago? How does the Pentagon respond to that?
STARR: Well, the feeling is -- and this comes mainly, of course, from the Department of Homeland Security, that the government is better prepared, that they're more organized, that they could respond more quickly if there was a catastrophe. But I think, clearly, from a political point-of-view, we have to be honest. It was -- it's partially an economic issue. There is no president of the United States, no politician that wants to tell Americans to go home and hide under their beds. The economy would come to a grinding halt if people acted this way. And I think certainly a lot of Americans feel, the heck with it I'm going to go about my business. MALVEAUX: Well, we know that President Bush is certainly watching the security and the situation from his Crawford ranch. And I'll bring you that. Back in a moment. I'm ON THAT STORY.
ANNOUNCER: A new survey is out on the American woman and her salary. What's her story? More just ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: The American woman with details of her paycheck was back in the headlines. What's her story? A new survey found that gender pay gap is still a problem. The National Association for Female Executives says no matter how much you try to explain it away there is somewhere between a 12 percent to 20 percent wage gap that can only be attributed to discrimination.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We have a lot of really decent hard-working Americans who will be working over the holiday season to be doing everything we can to protect Americans from harm.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MALVEAUX: Well, of course, President Bush talking about what was on so many people's minds. That, of course, the increase in terror -- the terror alert that was raised. President Bush, of course, getting his daily briefings at his Crawford ranch here in Texas, but also, of course, a little bit of downtime for the First Family. It was at Camp David that they exchanged gifts. We were told the president gave the first lady a necklace, some earrings, and dessert plates that the first lady spotted in Georgetown. We are told that Mrs. Bush gave him a tie, some shirts and a book. But the family, trying to celebrate the holiday as well.
MESERVE: But Suzanne, did the president eat beef for Christmas dinner?
MALVEAUX: A very good question. Actually, we have been told that the last couple days he has been eating beef. And one of the reasons why we know that is because his spokesman, Scott McClellan, is really trying to put at rest, put at ease, some of the fears over mad cow. And we are told that the president has been briefed a couple of times by the agricultural secretary, Ann Veneman, about this. There are a number of things, however, that this administration still has to answer to, some tough questions. I mean first of all, they don't know where this infected cow was born. They don't know about the birth herd with that cow. And also, they don't know what other cows have actually fed from the infected feed. So there's still a lot of things that this administration has to do. Their strategy is twofold, to try to convince Americans that, yes, the food supply is safe. At the same time, to go to our allies, Japan, South Korea, Russia, and some of the others who have decided they're not going to import American beef.
STARR: How worried are they about the financial impact? It's potentially just enormous.
MALVEAUX: Well, you're absolutely right. It could be devastating. And they really don't have a way to measure that just at this time. They want to see how this all develops. But it is not good news so far for the administration. As a matter of fact, you have a group from the Agricultural Department, a team that's heading over today to Japan to talk to those officials to try to convince them that the beef is acceptable, but it's only 10 percent of the beef. They really want Americans to be reassured that it is safe.
STARR: Now, Suzanne, a different topic, this terrible, terrible tragedy in Iran with this massive earthquake and apparently, this massive loss of life. What's the word from the White House? Is the U.S. going to send help? Do the Iranians want help from the U.S.?
MALVEAUX: Yes, on both scores. The administration is going to be assisting in a humanitarian effort, whether it's food, or clothes, or any type of supplies they might actually need. The president and the first lady, they issued a joint statement yesterday, saying they were really quite upset about this and that they want to help the Iranians out.
One of the important things to note here is that our relations with Iran, as you know, of course, is quite strained and it's been for some time. It's a member of the axis of evil, from Mr. Bush's perspectives. But Iran has been making some efforts in opening up its country to weapons inspectors just recently, saying it is willing to become more open in that way, that they are an active member in this war on terror. So there is the possibility that you have a stronger relationship between the two, but State Department officials did warn -- when I actually talked to them this week, saying, look, don't overplay this, that this is something that's a humanitarian effort. We really have to see what the Iranians are going to do, take signals from them, to see where we move if we establish diplomatic relationships.
STARR: Another humanitarian effort with another member of the axis of evil this week, North Korea.
MALVEAUX: Well, absolutely. And it's one of the reasons why they say don't overplay this because, you see the mudslides in Cuba. You had a huge humanitarian efforts from the United States and also, as you bring up, North Korea for the food supply. That is another area where they're deciding, look, we know people need help, we know our policies are different, but we are willing to go ahead and contribute.
MESERVE: Suzanne, thanks, and get out of that wind. It's really whipping down there. President Bush gets his say. Coming up, his weekly radio address when we're back ON THE STORY.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
STARR: Thanks to my colleagues and thank you for watching ON THE STORY. We'll be back next week. Still ahead, PEOPLE IN THE NEWS, focusing this week on Nicole Kidman and Tom Cruise. At 12:00 noon Eastern, 9:00 a.m. Pacific, "CNN LIVE SATURDAY" and at 1:00 p.m. Eastern, 10:00 a.m. Pacific, CNN's "IN THE MONEY." Coming up at the top of the hour, a check of the top stories, but first, the president's weekly radio address.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
BUSH: Good morning. In this week of Christmas, Laura and I send good wishes to the families of America. We hope this season has brought happy reunions, celebration, and new memories to cherish, as we approach the New Year. Christmas centers on the birth of a child and on the message of hope and peace. We hear that message in many ways at Christmas and it never loses the power to lift our hearts. The holidays can also deepen our sense of gratitude for life and for all the family and friends who fill our lives. In this great and prosperous land, we remember how much we have been given and how much we have to share. We think of those among us who spend the holidays in sadness or solitude. We think of those facing illness or the loss of a loved one or the hardships of poverty or unemployment. And across our country, caring citizens are reaching out to those in need by volunteering their time. By serving a cause greater than themselves, Americans spread hope in our country. And they make our nation better, one life at a time.
At Christmas, we also think of the men and women of our Armed Forces who are defending freedom around the world. These brave Americans are fighting terrorists in Afghanistan, Iraq, and elsewhere so that we do not meet these killers on our own streets. We are grateful for the courage and commitment of our own troops and we are safer because of their skill and sacrifice. Separation from loved ones is always difficult, especially at this time of year. All our men and women serving abroad can know that their families miss them. Millions are praying for them. And their nation is proud of them. All who serve others are living out the spirit of the Christmas season.
The story of Christmas is familiar to us all. Yet, it still brings inspiration, comfort, and love to people everywhere. The voice first heard 20 centuries ago in Bethlehem stirs churches in communities to open homeless shelters and food pantries and job training centers to help those in need.
This Christmas season comes at a time of great challenge for our country. Yet, the story of this holiday reminds us of an eternal promise, that God's purpose is justice and his plan is peace.
Thank you for listening.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
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insurgents on ground, in air>
Aired December 27, 2003 - 10:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Welcome to CNN's ON THE STORY, where our journalists have the inside word on the stories we covered this week. I'm Jeanne Meserve, ON THE STORY of a country on guard, on edge over a possible new terrorism attack.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: I'm Suzanne Malveaux ON THE STORY of the Bush administration basking in new public approval. At the same time, President Bush wrapping up a very challenging year.
RYM BRAHIMI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Rym Brahimi in Baghdad ON THE STORY of how the U.S. is putting more muscle into the fight against insurgents on the ground and on the air.
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: And I'm Barbara Starr, ON THE STORY of how the U.S. military is part of the terrorism fight, both overseas, and here at home. We'll go live to Tripoli to talk to Andrea Koppel about her exclusive interview with Libyan leader, Moammar Gadhafi. Jeanne Meserve also will talk about the jury decision to spare from execution accused D.C. sniper, Lee Malvo. And we'll listen to the president's weekly radio address at the end of the hour.
E-mail us at onthestory@CNN.com. Now, straight ahead to Jeanne Meserve and the terrorism threat.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOM RIDGE, HOMELAND SECURITY DIRECTOR: Be vigilant, and beware, and let the security professionals, the law enforcement community, federal, state, and local officials, worry about your security.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MESERVE: Tom Ridge, homeland security secretary, at the White House on Monday, saying, get on with your lives, despite new concerns about terrorism. Meanwhile, here in Washington and around the country, higher security and higher anxiety. I spoke to the secretary yesterday and he said he was relieved that the country had made it through the Christmas holiday without any incident, but New Year's coming up. Large gatherings on tap all across the country. They're worried about that but no plans at this date to cancel anything because they don't have intelligence that would warrant that. STARR: You know, Jeanne, I think like most Americans, we look at this for the last several days, and the question is, what now? How long does this go on? Is there really a threat still?
MESERVE: They said from the onset it will go on through the holiday period at least. I've talked to some officials who have been briefed on some of this. They expect this could last all the way through the month of January, just because of the volume of the intelligence that they're getting.
STARR: And what's their best sense right now? You know, we've seen the whole Air France situation this week. Still, hijacking the major concern, a dirty bomb? What do they think?
MESERVE: Well, I think there's been a lot of intelligence that's come in recently about the airline threat and this possible use of airplanes as weapons in a suicide attack. But officials say they're worried about the whole range of possible threats. We know that al Qaeda has been working very hard to obtain or steal or develop a dirty bomb, also, chemical and biological weapons.
You know, Barbara, that they've deployed teams or have them, I should say, on a heightened alert status to be deployed should there be any incident that could respond to any of those sorts of things. So I think they're concerned across the gamut because they don't have, we know, the very specific sort of intelligence that allows them to anticipate exactly when and where, and how a strike might occur.
BRAHIMI: Well, that's something that I wanted to ask you, Jeanne. You see, here in Baghdad, it's pretty obvious that there are intelligence threats cited by intelligence sources, and it's a pretty obvious place to have that kind of threat, especially after the capture of Saddam Hussein. But I want to know what kind of conversation may have taken place where you are, in order to raise that threat level. And is it maybe stretching out the resources with what's going on in Iraq? Which is affecting which more? I mean does it give them more work to do because they're in Iraq and it's difficult for them to look after homeland security, or is it the other way around, that it's difficult to look after Iraq because they have to look after security threats at home?
MESERVE: Well, the part of it that I cover concerned mostly the domestic situation here. What Secretary Ridge will say is that there's a lot more capability to respond now, that they've matured somewhat at the Department of Homeland Security, which of course just started up a little bit more than a year ago, and that state and local governments have a much better capacity to respond now than they did. Many people will tell you it's still imperfect, but it's better.
Barbara, maybe you can address the possibility -- possibly what Rym is raising here, the military component...
STARR: Well, you know, that's a very interesting question. A lot of emergency response teams on standby for any potential, unthinkable disaster, military teams, Energy Department teams, Homeland Security teams, but there's only so many people in the United States that know how to do this type of work. And there's some number of them that are military reservists and are in Iraq still conducting that hunt for the weapons of mass destruction. So there is a bit of a tradeoff, I think, constantly, within the administration on how to allocate resources here at home, in the United States, and abroad to deal with threats there. It's an ongoing problem.
MALVEAUX: Jeanne, one of the things that I noticed when I was speaking with my sources over the week, they called it kind of the "Chicken Little" factor here where it's -- you know, what is the threshold you have to arrive at before you actually bring out all the forces here and say, OK, we're going to up the security alert. It's going to cost billions of dollars, perhaps even make the public afraid. Already, the administration is getting criticism from some security experts who say, look, you know, you put all this out here, nothing has happened, and perhaps even warned some of these people aboard the flights who never showed up, that might have gone ahead and might have exposed some sort of plot. What was that? Can you go through and tell us how did they reach that threshold, and how are they responding to this criticism?
MESERVE: Well, it's very murky when they reach that threshold. It's a very difficult to define. What officials tend to say is that they get an accumulation of evidence, which leads them to the step of raising the threat level. They don't take it lightly. It is extraordinarily expensive to do this. It puts people on edge. It's why they haven't done it for six months. They've become much more judicious about when they do it. This time, they felt it was absolutely necessary.
On the Air France business, they tried very hard to keep those cancellations under their hat just as long as they possibly could because they did want everybody who was slated to be on those aircraft to show up because they wanted to question them. On that first flight, a number did. They were detained by the French. They were interrogated. A number of people did not show up, including someone who was a licensed pilot with a commercial license. That's someone they want to talk to. And people, of course, did not show up for those second and third flights because they did know they were canceled. But what could they do? I mean 400 people weren't going to be showing up in Los Angeles. Sooner or later that news was going to get out, and it did. But it got out, they hoped as late as possible. Now, as to whether they really thwarted a terrorist plot there, U.S. officials say they just don't know yet. If they do know, they're certainly not telling us.
STARR: What about the bottom-line here about aviation security abroad because that seems to be one of the concerns you hear from everyone in the government? What should Americans think when they travel, perhaps, on their vacation into airports in other countries? How secure are they?
MESERVE: It varies from country to country. Frankly, there are not international standards right now for what has to happen on the ground at airports around the world to make sure that passenger screening and baggage screening is anything near to what it is here. And some will tell you even in those countries where they have adopted some kind of standards, they often are not enforced. So it's very problematic.
Now, I did speak to the secretary yesterday. He insisted that international conversations are taking place on this subject that they are working with other countries to impress upon them the necessity of improving airline security all across the board. In addition, you know, he held out the fact that there are extraordinary steps the U.S. could take. There could be more cancellations down the road if they have specific intelligence, which makes them worry about a specific flight. In addition, they can deny landing rights if it came to that. If a flight was in the air and something came up that caused them great concern, they can cancel. So they're moving. They're trying. And they're pushing on air marshals, too, trying to get other countries to move on that front.
BRAHIMI: Well, from the war on terrorism to the day-to-day fighting here in Iraq, I'm back on that story in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT, DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF OPERATIONS, COALITION PROVISIONAL AUTHORITY: Coalition forces are using a wide variety of ordnance to include artillery, Army and Air Force aviation to attack specified targets used in the past by the enemy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BRAHIMI: That was Brigadier Mark Kimmitt, deputy director of operations for the Coalition Provisional Authority here in Baghdad where the U.S. forces have launched "Operation Iron Grip" against the insurgents, an operation on the ground and from the air. Now, despite the launching of that operation, that we were told by U.S. military spokesmen, that the reason this was taking place was actually to prevent the insurgents from actually striking with the intensity they had planned to, according to their intelligence sources. They expected full well an increase in operations by the insurgents. Well, despite that, there have been really several operations on the part of the insurgents as well.
I can really say the past three, four days, have been almost nonstop fighting, if you will. And the main -- the most -- big event, if you will, is today's bombs in Karbala, the holy city of Karbala, about an hour and a half drive south from the Iraqi capital. Now, we understand that there were several areas hit, at least three areas, two military compounds, housing multinational forces, and city hall in Karbala. Now, we understand that at least five military have been killed. We're not sure exactly what their nationalities are. It looks like several are Bulgarian. But it seems that apart from the 37 wounded that have been counted so far among military and civilians, there are also many civilians that have probably died in those blasts.
MALVEAUX: Rym, you have an extraordinary perspective from where you sit, very unique from all the rest of us, and you've been there before, during and after the war in Iraq. Can you give us a sense of what is it like now compared to some of those times, particularly Christmas in Baghdad? Was there a real sense of fear, of frustration? How would you set the mood today?
BRAHIMI: You know it is fascinating to see all these changes, and at the same time, how these changes are taking place and how the people here see them. Last year's Christmas was very different. It was under the threat of war. Of course, there was this very repressive regime and everybody was afraid to really talk openly, but they did go ahead and celebrate Christmas. There were lights in the streets. They went to mass and they had their celebration for Christmas and the end of the New Year. This year is very strange. I mean, of course, now, there's the freedom, so when I went to attend the mass, to see what was going on there, the priest could very freely talk and didn't have to bless the former Iraqi president, Saddam Hussein, in their prayers, but at the same time, several Christians didn't show up. Many of the people that I spoke to said they weren't going to go to church even this year for mass because of the security situation. In fact, the midnight mass was canceled and brought forward to 5:00 p.m. on Christmas Eve because of that. And in the main church where the patriarch was officiating, in the Kalian Church (ph), well, there was police all around, so a very, very different atmosphere. And people, you know, -- as one woman put it to me when I asked her, she said, "What celebration? Do you see a celebratory mood around here anywhere?"
MESERVE: You mentioned the intensification of the U.S. campaign against the insurgents. Is it, in fact, at this point, looking counterproductive, although -- as if it's spurring the insurgents to greater violence?
BRAHIMI: You know that's a very good question. It's actually the question of the moment. It seems from a distance, at any rate, from where we stand, that, you know, you had the capture of Saddam Hussein, and then right after that, U.S. forces capitalized on that capture and started launching raids and operations all around the Sunni triangle. Now, they said that they had intelligence that on the 24th, 25th, and the 26th, there would be an increase of attacks by insurgents. So they went ahead and launched "Operation Iron Grip," but it didn't seem to prevent anything. I mean the -- on Christmas Day, you should have heard the noise around here, on Christmas Eve even at night. There was heavy aircraft activity. There was a lot of artillery, a lot of gunfire in the street. And then, Christmas morning, we here in the Palestine Hotel were woken up at 6:00 a.m. by a loud bang. It was the sound of a rocket hitting the Sheraton Hotel nearby. And all through Baghdad, there was something like eight rocket attacks, hitting the Turkish embassy, the Iranian embassy, the Green Zone even, where the coalition authority has their headquarters. So it's a good question as to whether or not they're maybe provoking more action or whether just deliberately each side, the U.S. forces and the insurgents, are determined each to show that they're not going to be deterred.
STARR: Now, Rym, of course, it's been several days since the capture of Saddam Hussein. What is the read in Baghdad with the coalition and military authorities on whether they now think Saddam was behind some of this insurgency movement, whether or not he was directing it, and if he was, why are the attacks still continuing? BRAHIMI: Well, again, that's another one of main questions that people are trying to figure out here. You know, a lot of people think that Saddam Hussein may have been behind a lot of these attacks. But -- then you also have all these conspiracy theories. Remember that this is a region where conspiracy theories really have a life of their own, and so, of course, a lot of people think that the Americans may have captured Saddam maybe a week, two weeks, before they actually announced it. Some people think that Saddam is actually on the side of the Americans, somehow that the U.S. forces are just using him and his presence to maintain their occupation. I mean there are a lot of such theories going by, closing by.
On the other hand, of course, if you want to look at more factual notions of what's happening here, definitely, that the U.S. forces or U.S. military that we've spoken to seem to indicate that documents they've found when they captured Saddam did indicate that there was a lot of information going back and forth between the insurgents and Saddam. Some of the council members, the governing council members I spoke to, however, said they didn't think it was necessarily the case that he was directing these operations, but that there were people among the insurgents who just wanted to send him messages saying this is what we're doing and we're doing it for the cause.
STARR: Well, Rym, we want to thank you for joining us today. It's been great talking with you again. What's ON THE STORY for you in the coming days?
BRAHIMI: Well, in the coming days, I'm going to prepare -- I wanted it to be a surprise, but since you ask me so nicely, I wanted to prepare an end of year piece, exactly that -- what we were talking about, looking at what it was like in Baghdad this time last year and what does Baghdad look like now, basically, what a difference a year makes. And hopefully you'll keep your eyes open for that.
STARR: Well, I'll be looking for it.
Now, from Iraq to Libya, a diplomatic breakthrough and in an exclusive interview with Moammar Gadhafi by our colleague, Andrea Koppel. We're back ON THE STORY after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COL. MOAMMAR GADHAFI, LIBYIAN PRESIDENT: I told you we haven't these weapons, WMD. To avoid any suspicions, we have decided to get rid of these machines, of these things, these programs completely.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT: That was Libyan leader. Moammar Gadhafi, who has been in power here in Libya for the last 34 years, in his exclusive interview with us earlier this week. It was quite an experience, much -- very much unlike any other interview that I've ever done with a world leader in that there wasn't a set time. We arrived in Tripoli on Sunday night not knowing exactly when our interview would be, made calls obviously Sunday night and Monday morning, and then got a phone call about 11:00 a.m., saying, get downstairs, which we did. We gathered our equipment and went down there, and then we were driven to a couple of different locations. One of them was about 30 minutes outside of Tripoli, the capital where I am right now. We drove to several entrances, a lot of guards there. Finally, we were ushered into what was really a large, secluded rural compound, waited outside of what we were told was a guest house, had some orange soda, and then finally, were brought over to this large tent. Colonel Gadhafi is the son of a Bedouin, and he likes to think of himself still as having those roots to his people. This was a very large tent. It was kind of a perma-tent, build on concrete, complete with flies, which is why during the interview, you saw Colonel Gadhafi, and even myself, trying to swat the flies off our faces.
Usually when I've done interviews with world leaders, they like to sit in very formal chairs. There were a couple nice chairs there with fabric on them that we had set up, and we were told by his colleagues, no, no, no, the leader likes to sit in these plastic chairs, the sort that you would see out in your patio year round. On the table in front of him there was the green book, which is the equivalent for the Libyans of the little red book in China, with all of the leaders quotations and various sayings. There was a small book, also, on his vision for an Israeli/Palestinian state known as Israetine. There were three pens. There was also a Bulgari sunglass holder because the leader likes to wear sunglasses. And then, when he pulled up for the interview, again, you know, we didn't know how he was going to arrive. He pulled up in what looked like a Jeep or a Range Rover, and he was in the front seat next to the driver. And he got out wearing this maroon outfit with this cape over his arm and just kind of walked up and shook my hand, and then the interview began.
MESERVE: Andrea, this is a guy who has been vilified. He's been ridiculed. I'd love to ask you what your impression of the man is after having spent this time with him.
KOPPEL: Jeanne, he was very subdued. I -- as you have, I'm sure, seen him give a very fiery, very vitriolic speeches over the years. This was a man who was extremely calm. He speaks fluent English. And in our interview, he did respond to some questions in English, but then switched into Arabic. He seemed very mellow, to be quite honest with you. He looked to be quite a bit younger than the 60-some odd years that he is believed to be. And he also seemed to be very almost laid back. Again, I know that some of our colleagues have interviewed him when he was very aggressive and in their face. That was not the Moammar Gadhafi that I experienced during our hour-long chat.
STARR: Andrea, most of us of course have not been to Tripoli. Have you had a chance to look around the city? What's it like there? Are there all the modern conveniences? What's it like when you go around town?
KOPPEL: This really is a country of contrasts, Barbara. On the one hand, it's an Islamic state, but it's also a socialist republic. Socialism here is rusting, to say the very least. It has failed. We're told that salaries were frozen back in 1973. There are no street addresses here, if you can believe it. You can go down a street. And we were told by one person that, you know, when you go to someone's house, you say where do you live? He doesn't say No. 17 Branch Avenue; he says go down past such and such a shop. When you see the big oak tree, take a left, and then you know that other place. There is no mail service here.
One of our friends, his mother was -- is a teacher in a school here and she showed up for -- she showed up at her home early, and he said what are you doing here? She said, well, the school was flooded. Even though they get very heavy rains, there is no sewage system. Things just don't work here, which is another reason why Moammar Gadhafi has made, among the many reasons, the decision to try to get out from under 20 years of sanctions and get some foreign investment in this country because people need to have jobs. They need to have some other sources of income beyond this state.
It's obviously, as I said, Islamic. There are all kinds of mosques around here. People are very religious. You see the women wearing the hajab. But you also see -- you know, you have e-mail, but for instance, we've been trying to use e-mail for the last couple of days and it was just shut down. You couldn't get...
MALVEAUX: Andrea, I am told that one of the reasons why President Bush, as well as British Prime Minister Blair actually believe that he was willing to disarm is because he was so open, his regime, in showing -- allowing you to take photos and samples from some of these nuclear laboratories. I understand you got a chance to visit. I mean the first time in what, 20 years; a western journalist got to visit one of those sites. What did you see? And what did he say about the reason for actually disarming and coming clean?
KOPPEL: Well, I should -- one caveat, I'm eight months pregnant, so I myself did not visit the nuclear research facility at Dujura, but my two colleagues, cameraman, Darren Bull (ph), and my producer, Iman Moyelden (ph), visited and took some -- the first pictures in 20 years that western journalists have been able to see inside this facility. This is a facility that the International Atomic Energy Agency has known about. This is the site that they had visited regularly since 1983. And it is not believed to be a site that has, you know, anything illegal going on inside it. What we have since learned in the last week is that Libya, for at least the last year, 10 years, perhaps longer, has had nine additional sites at which they've been producing fusel materials, things of that nature. So we were able to see -- and in fact, Mohamed ElBaradei, the IAEA director, is here in Libya today to spend the next couple of days negotiating a new agreement.
MESERVE: Andrea, thanks a lot. When are you coming home?
KOPPEL: I'm hoping to leave on Tuesday.
MESERVE: I'm sure your doctors will be relieved. Andrea, thanks so much.
And from Libya to life and death deliberation here in the United States, after a break and the check of what's making headlines at this hour. I'm back ON THE STORY of the jury sparing the life of sniper, Lee Malvo.
ANNOUNCER: Jeanne Meserve is a correspondent in CNN's Washington bureau. She joined CNN in 1993 and covers homeland security for the network. She is a former correspondent for ABC.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWSBREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's going to have to spend the next 80 -- 70, 80, years of his life in prison, thinking about the enormous pain and devastation he's caused all the victims.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MESERVE: Kelly Thorton (ph), one of the jurors whose vote convicted Lee Malvo of murder, but also spared him from execution. Welcome back. We're ON THE STORY. This, of course, is nowhere near the end of the line for Lee Malvo or John Muhammad. There are a number of other jurisdictions, a number of other prosecutors who want to get a crack at these guys down the road.
STARR: What's the real read on this? Why did the jury go this way, Christmas holidays, his age?
MESERVE: A lot of people have talked about Christmas, but I think age probably had a lot more to do with it. This is a young man. He was 17 when the crimes were committed. He was 15 when he first linked up with John Muhammad. And I talked to a jury on the Muhammad case. This was an individual who sentenced Muhammad to a death sentence, who said, "You know, if I had been on this jury, even though the facts were the same" -- and in some instances they were more incriminating -- she said, "I couldn't have voted for the death penalty here because he was 17 years old." And this particular juror had a 17-year-old son of her own.
MALVEAUX: And Jeanne, how do you think the defense played when they talked about temporary insanity? It seemed as if that didn't gain much traction, but certainly, I guess, towards the penalty phase, they thought that it was worth it to spare his life.
MESERVE: No, it obviously didn't work the way they wanted it to because he was found guilty on all three of the charges against him. But it was a very clever maneuver on the part of the defense team to put all of that mental health testimony out there early and have people thinking about the evaluations that had been done of him and, also, to have heard all the testimony about his childhood. They put on a battery of witnesses who've known him before he met John Muhammad. And all of the ones the defense put on testified to what a smart kid this was, what an obedient and respectful child this was. And apparently, it did have some effect.
I will say on the other hand, the prosecution put on a mental health expert who indicated there had been some problems with this young man, that he'd engaged in certain kinds of behavior, which showed he did have some -- perhaps some tendencies. One of the things that was brought up repeatedly was the fact that as a child he had gone out and stoned cats. Apparently, he had a cat as a young child. He had kept it in his bed. It soiled the bed. His mother beat him as a result, so he chased off that cat and then sort of had this thing for hunting down cats. He'd take a slingshot and ball bearings and go out after them. The numbers vary greatly on how often he did that. But clearly, the prosecution felt this was an explosive issue and they went back to it time and time again in the course of the trial.
STARR: Now, does this verdict of life have any legal standing or bearing on any future proceedings?
MESERVE: No, I think that -- I'm not a lawyer. I'm not a legal expert. I have to always caution that. But my understanding is no, each jurisdiction will start with a clean state and go in and try and get -- I'm sure, will try and get a death penalty against him.
STARR: And how are the families of the victims now reacting to this verdict?
MESERVE: Well, those who spoke were quite upset about this. They wanted to see a death sentence in this trial. They did not get it. I'll tell you, the family I really wanted to hear from did not speak and that's the family of Linda Franklin. She's the FBI analyst who was shot in the Home Depot parking lot. That's what the central murder in this prosecution. All through the trial and even in the pretrial motions, her husband was in the courtroom, also her daughter, Katrina Hammond (ph) in the courtroom for much of this trial. All the families had victim advocates with them, which allowed them to distance themselves from the press, and most kept some distance but became more approachable as time went on. The Franklin family was not like that. They kept us very much at arm's length, made it very clear through their body language that they did not want to have anything to do with us. It was very interesting, in a society where you see so many people venting their grief and their opinion publicly, to have this family choose to do otherwise. And I would love to hear their thoughts on this. We know they were upset. Katie Hammond (ph) cried in the courtroom. But I'd love to have a conversation to find out more.
STARR: See what they really felt?
MESERVE: Yes, because that -- the testimony from that family was fascinating and key in this case. Katie had got up during the penalty phase and talked about her mother in very glowing terms and with humor, too. Clearly, it affected a lot of the jurors. And Ted Franklin, although his testimony was quite short, in the penalty phase of this, they did play the famous 911 tape of him calling in. And I have to tell you I have listened to few things as gripping. Many of us in the press corps listen to things like 911 tapes routinely. We think we're jaded. The press corps was in tears during that. It wasn't just the jury, it wasn't just the family, everyone in the courtroom, including the task force members, were wiping their eyes.
STARR: And did Malvo -- did Malvo ever show any reaction? MESERVE: No, not much. Some days, he was almost frivolous in the courtroom. You'd see him laughing with his attorneys and he'd be doodling and he'd be chewing on a piece of candy and he just seemed totally out of touch with the gravity of what was happening around him. During this kind of testimony, he was not laughing. But from what I could see, from my vantage point, he was mostly staring ahead or staring at the people who were testifying, or staring at the table. Occasionally, he'd lower his head. But in terms of remorse, no. I didn't see anything, from where I was sitting in the courtroom.
MALVEAUX: Jeanne, what is his life going to be like now, for Lee Malvo? And do you know if there's any opportunity where he would ever see John Muhammad before Muhammad is sentenced to death?
MESERVE: I would think it's going to be unlikely that he'd see John Muhammad anywhere except in a courtroom. Malvo, you'll remember, was brought into Muhammad's trial several times for identification purposes but never testified. Malvo's attorneys wanted to bring Muhammad into the room. He'd made it clear he wasn't going to testify, but they wanted him to come in so the jurors could see the discrepancy in their ages, and in their size. In the end, the judge did not allow that to happen.
But what will his life be like? You can just imagine. This kid's 18 years old, and there is no prospect for him except a jail cell for the rest of his life. So it must be a pretty depressing prospect. So, clearly, some would say and some wouldn't, I guess, the alternative was worse.
STARR: Well, from the D.C. snipers, to the U.S. military, facing off challenges at home and abroad. I'm back ON THE STORY after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: It costs money and it causes stress on military and civilian at all levels of government. Therefore, you do not do it lightly. You ask, is it serious? Yes, you bet your life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
STARR: Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld at a Pentagon briefing on Tuesday, talking about the decision this week to raise the terror alert. Welcome back. We're ON THE STORY. And what the secretary's point really was is that this is not something the administration did lightly. It costs money. It costs manpower, more stress on the military force at a time when they're already plenty busy around the world. So when Don Rumsfeld says it's serious, most people believe him. It's, it's -- it is.
MALVEAUX: Barbara, you bring up a good point here because -- I mean they estimated, what, about $1 billion a week. Local and state officials complain all the time when they raise this terror alert. How did the military -- how did they see the level of intelligence? How good do they think it was this time around to raise the level because this has happened before?
STARR: That's exactly right. As Jeanne says, terror alert fatigue, everything gets tired of hearing the same thing. By all accounts, the military has the same view as the intelligence community. It was the volume. It was the credibility, although no specific information about a particular time and place. But they really felt by all accounts they had no other decision that they could make. There was a feeling -- as one source said to me, this was true orange.
MESERVE: Now, I've talked about the domestic threat. What about internationally? What are they afraid of overseas?
STARR: Well, this week, the story perhaps that didn't quite, in the mix of everything else, get as much attention, were these assassination attempts against the Pakistani president, General Pervez Musharraf. Again, assassins making an effort, twice in 12 days, to assassinate this man. Every indication that, perhaps, al Qaeda or Islamic extremists in Pakistan are behind it and if there is another attempt -- and as people say, God forbid, they're successful -- this is a nightmare scenario for the war on terrorism.
MESERVE: What would the impact be on the war...
STARR: The impact would be remarkably significant. Pervez Musharraf is the closest ally. He is the man directing the Pakistani military to hunt for Osama bin Laden in their country, to hunt for al Qaeda. If he were to either be overthrown or assassinated, the general assessment is that Pakistan -- there is a good chance it will fall into massive chaos and instability. Not clear at all that the U.S. administration could do anything about it. And the really fascinating question here is, if, God forbid it was proven to be al Qaeda, as we say, the Bush administration has vowed, of course, President Bush, Suzanne, to fight terrorism wherever he finds it. What would they do in Pakistan?
MALVEAUX: And certainly, Barbara, I mean it would be politically devastating as well for the Bush administration if that were to happen. I wonder -- and this question keeps coming up here. You have the fall of the Taliban, the Iraq War, even the capture of Saddam Hussein, and Barbara, I think I remember you asking this question just this past week, how is it that the terror alert level was actually raised in light of all of these things that the administration brings up, and they say Americans are more secure and more safe than they were several years ago? How does the Pentagon respond to that?
STARR: Well, the feeling is -- and this comes mainly, of course, from the Department of Homeland Security, that the government is better prepared, that they're more organized, that they could respond more quickly if there was a catastrophe. But I think, clearly, from a political point-of-view, we have to be honest. It was -- it's partially an economic issue. There is no president of the United States, no politician that wants to tell Americans to go home and hide under their beds. The economy would come to a grinding halt if people acted this way. And I think certainly a lot of Americans feel, the heck with it I'm going to go about my business. MALVEAUX: Well, we know that President Bush is certainly watching the security and the situation from his Crawford ranch. And I'll bring you that. Back in a moment. I'm ON THAT STORY.
ANNOUNCER: A new survey is out on the American woman and her salary. What's her story? More just ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: The American woman with details of her paycheck was back in the headlines. What's her story? A new survey found that gender pay gap is still a problem. The National Association for Female Executives says no matter how much you try to explain it away there is somewhere between a 12 percent to 20 percent wage gap that can only be attributed to discrimination.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We have a lot of really decent hard-working Americans who will be working over the holiday season to be doing everything we can to protect Americans from harm.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MALVEAUX: Well, of course, President Bush talking about what was on so many people's minds. That, of course, the increase in terror -- the terror alert that was raised. President Bush, of course, getting his daily briefings at his Crawford ranch here in Texas, but also, of course, a little bit of downtime for the First Family. It was at Camp David that they exchanged gifts. We were told the president gave the first lady a necklace, some earrings, and dessert plates that the first lady spotted in Georgetown. We are told that Mrs. Bush gave him a tie, some shirts and a book. But the family, trying to celebrate the holiday as well.
MESERVE: But Suzanne, did the president eat beef for Christmas dinner?
MALVEAUX: A very good question. Actually, we have been told that the last couple days he has been eating beef. And one of the reasons why we know that is because his spokesman, Scott McClellan, is really trying to put at rest, put at ease, some of the fears over mad cow. And we are told that the president has been briefed a couple of times by the agricultural secretary, Ann Veneman, about this. There are a number of things, however, that this administration still has to answer to, some tough questions. I mean first of all, they don't know where this infected cow was born. They don't know about the birth herd with that cow. And also, they don't know what other cows have actually fed from the infected feed. So there's still a lot of things that this administration has to do. Their strategy is twofold, to try to convince Americans that, yes, the food supply is safe. At the same time, to go to our allies, Japan, South Korea, Russia, and some of the others who have decided they're not going to import American beef.
STARR: How worried are they about the financial impact? It's potentially just enormous.
MALVEAUX: Well, you're absolutely right. It could be devastating. And they really don't have a way to measure that just at this time. They want to see how this all develops. But it is not good news so far for the administration. As a matter of fact, you have a group from the Agricultural Department, a team that's heading over today to Japan to talk to those officials to try to convince them that the beef is acceptable, but it's only 10 percent of the beef. They really want Americans to be reassured that it is safe.
STARR: Now, Suzanne, a different topic, this terrible, terrible tragedy in Iran with this massive earthquake and apparently, this massive loss of life. What's the word from the White House? Is the U.S. going to send help? Do the Iranians want help from the U.S.?
MALVEAUX: Yes, on both scores. The administration is going to be assisting in a humanitarian effort, whether it's food, or clothes, or any type of supplies they might actually need. The president and the first lady, they issued a joint statement yesterday, saying they were really quite upset about this and that they want to help the Iranians out.
One of the important things to note here is that our relations with Iran, as you know, of course, is quite strained and it's been for some time. It's a member of the axis of evil, from Mr. Bush's perspectives. But Iran has been making some efforts in opening up its country to weapons inspectors just recently, saying it is willing to become more open in that way, that they are an active member in this war on terror. So there is the possibility that you have a stronger relationship between the two, but State Department officials did warn -- when I actually talked to them this week, saying, look, don't overplay this, that this is something that's a humanitarian effort. We really have to see what the Iranians are going to do, take signals from them, to see where we move if we establish diplomatic relationships.
STARR: Another humanitarian effort with another member of the axis of evil this week, North Korea.
MALVEAUX: Well, absolutely. And it's one of the reasons why they say don't overplay this because, you see the mudslides in Cuba. You had a huge humanitarian efforts from the United States and also, as you bring up, North Korea for the food supply. That is another area where they're deciding, look, we know people need help, we know our policies are different, but we are willing to go ahead and contribute.
MESERVE: Suzanne, thanks, and get out of that wind. It's really whipping down there. President Bush gets his say. Coming up, his weekly radio address when we're back ON THE STORY.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
STARR: Thanks to my colleagues and thank you for watching ON THE STORY. We'll be back next week. Still ahead, PEOPLE IN THE NEWS, focusing this week on Nicole Kidman and Tom Cruise. At 12:00 noon Eastern, 9:00 a.m. Pacific, "CNN LIVE SATURDAY" and at 1:00 p.m. Eastern, 10:00 a.m. Pacific, CNN's "IN THE MONEY." Coming up at the top of the hour, a check of the top stories, but first, the president's weekly radio address.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
BUSH: Good morning. In this week of Christmas, Laura and I send good wishes to the families of America. We hope this season has brought happy reunions, celebration, and new memories to cherish, as we approach the New Year. Christmas centers on the birth of a child and on the message of hope and peace. We hear that message in many ways at Christmas and it never loses the power to lift our hearts. The holidays can also deepen our sense of gratitude for life and for all the family and friends who fill our lives. In this great and prosperous land, we remember how much we have been given and how much we have to share. We think of those among us who spend the holidays in sadness or solitude. We think of those facing illness or the loss of a loved one or the hardships of poverty or unemployment. And across our country, caring citizens are reaching out to those in need by volunteering their time. By serving a cause greater than themselves, Americans spread hope in our country. And they make our nation better, one life at a time.
At Christmas, we also think of the men and women of our Armed Forces who are defending freedom around the world. These brave Americans are fighting terrorists in Afghanistan, Iraq, and elsewhere so that we do not meet these killers on our own streets. We are grateful for the courage and commitment of our own troops and we are safer because of their skill and sacrifice. Separation from loved ones is always difficult, especially at this time of year. All our men and women serving abroad can know that their families miss them. Millions are praying for them. And their nation is proud of them. All who serve others are living out the spirit of the Christmas season.
The story of Christmas is familiar to us all. Yet, it still brings inspiration, comfort, and love to people everywhere. The voice first heard 20 centuries ago in Bethlehem stirs churches in communities to open homeless shelters and food pantries and job training centers to help those in need.
This Christmas season comes at a time of great challenge for our country. Yet, the story of this holiday reminds us of an eternal promise, that God's purpose is justice and his plan is peace.
Thank you for listening.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
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