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Bush Makes Overseas Push for Aid in Iraq; Final Countdown to Handover of Power

Aired June 26, 2004 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


DREW GRIFFIN, CNN ANCHOR: News at this hour:
President Bush says he thinks the bitter division over the Iraq war have ended and there's a -- some consensus on helping Iraq rebuild and govern itself. Mr. Bush was asked how long U.S. troops will remain in Iraq.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We will stay as long as necessary, and then we will leave. We will complete the mission. And the faster the Iraqis take over their own security needs, the faster the mission will end.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRIFFIN: The president spoke after attending a European Union conference that was taking place in Ireland. The president is shortly heading for Ankara, Turkey, where demonstrators are waiting for him. Security tight in the Turkish capital. Mr. Bush will meet Turkey's president and prime minister. On Monday, Mr. Bush will attend that NATO summit. That's in Istanbul.

In Iraq, clashes today in Najaf. A U.S. Army Convoy coming under fire after take a wrong turn and heading toward the city's holy shrines. The convoy turned around after insurgents opened fire. No casualties to report there.

I'm Drew Griffin at the CNN global headquarters in Atlanta. ON THE STORY begins right now.

JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Welcome to CNN's ON THE STORY, where our journalists have the inside word on the stories we covered this week.

I'm Jeanne Meserve, ON THE STORY of homeland security as we move into summer, and heightened concerns about possible terror attacks.

JANE ARRAF, CNN BAGHDAD BUREAU CHIEF: I'm Jane Arraf in Baghdad, ON THE STORY of deadly days here and the final countdown to the transfer to sovereignty to Iraqis.

DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: I'm Dana Bash, ON THE STORY of the president losing support for his Iraq policy at home, and overseas making a pitch to allies for help. KELLY WALLACE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Kelly Wallace in New York, ON THE STORY of the latest Bill Clinton campaign to sell his book, tell his story, and maybe help his wife and John Kerry along the way.

KATHLEEN HAYS, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT: And I'm Kathleen Hays ON THE STORY of the biggest-ever class-action civil rights case, against Wal- Mart.

We'll talk to CNN's Octavia Nasr about how events in Iraq are seen and reported in the Arab world.

And here in the United States, we'll talk about how moviemaker Michael Moore hopes to change minds and votes.

E-mail us at ONTHESTORY@cnn.com.

Now straight to Jane Arraf and the road to handover.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

IYAD ALLAWI, IRAQ INTERIM PRIME MINISTER: I would like to assure you and to assure the Iraqi people, these are isolated incidents. We are going to face them and we are going to defeat them and we are going to crush them. And we are not going to allow the Iraqi people to be injured and to be undermined. We are going to end -- and we are going to prevail.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ARRAF: That was interim Prime Minister Iyad Allawi. And he was speaking to Iraqis after one of the deadliest days in Iraq, on Thursday, multiple attacks in multiple cities. More than 100 people dead. 300 injured. And in that run-up to the handover, happening on Wednesday, the focus, of course, for Iraqis for journalists, for everyone, for officials particularly in this country, is security.

WALLACE: Jane, what impact is the latest violence having on everyday Iraqis? Their view of this handover -- what it will actually mean for them, and their security?

ARRAF: Well, certainly, when you have all these car bombs going off, it makes people more uneasy. And what makes them even more disturbed, perhaps, and more concerned, are warnings that it could get worse, which we're seeing just about every day.

Now, we have to keep reminding people that because there are attacks, because there are car bombs, it doesn't mean that this city particularly has come to a complete standstill. I mean, just behind me, we're in a major square, and there are people driving. There are people out on the streets. The shops are open.

It's kind of amazing. This is a big city. It's a resilient city. It's full of people who have lived through this for months and months and months. And they hope to live through it for a while longer. So they're kind of getting by.

MESERVE: Jane, with so many Iraqis being killed are you seeing a shift in political opinion?

ARRAF: You know, it's really interesting. There have been all these called for martial law. I think we've talked about a little bit, about the incongruity, that you will have a country that now is sovereign, and one of its first acts might be, OK, we're going to clamp down and impose martial law.

Now to us that doesn't seem like a great thing, but to Iraqis it's kind of amazingly popular. And I think what's happening is that they are becoming more convinced that these are desperate times and they call for desperate measures. They will follow pretty well anyone who convinces them that he can clean up the streets, round up terrorists, and basically make them feel safe again. And that seems to be some shift in what's happening in people's feelings here.

HAYS: Well, I wonder about their feelings about safety, as they shift from United States' forces being the No. 1 in command for security, to Iraqi forces. I love the way the U.S. military comes up with names: shock and awe when we went into Iraq, now it's Operation New Dawn. What's that going to mean in Iraq?

ARRAF: Gosh, it's probably not going to have a whole -- make a whole lot of difference.

Really, clearly, as you've all seen and you've all felt in the stories you've covered -- you're covering, I'm sure, the U.S. wants to put the best possible face on this, which is, this is a new dawn. This is Iraq's country; this is a country that belongs to Iraqis, run by Iraqis. It's their problems to solve.

The reality isn't quite so simple. They're not ready yet. No one believes they're ready yet. No one believes the Iraqi army can take over. There isn't really much of an Iraqi army. No one believes the police are in any shape to take over.

It is really an evolving process. And things are not going to be much different after July 1.

BASH: And Jane, one of the keys that you hear from the White House to making the Iraqi government work after June 30, is the perception of the prime minister and the whole government, that they are actually seen as legitimate.

What is your sense from people you talked to, Iraqis -- do they feel that the prime minister and others are actually their legitimate leaders?

ARRAF: I think nobody's going to feel that -- and this is probably human nature -- until they actually can go out and put their ballot in a ballot box and actually vote, which is what they were promised. They keep saying, "You promised us democracy."

This is not democracy. This is -- no one's pretending it is. This is an interim government; this is a caretaker government that's not really meant to have a whole lot of power. And it is headed by someone who is very close to the CIA, who was a former Baathist. Now if elections were held, they may very well choose him again. But on the surface, it isn't someone who, if Iraqis were to come up with a perfect image of what they would want in a prime minister, he probably wouldn't be it.

But he is a "get tough" kind of guy. And so far the things he's saying, although he's long on generalities and short on specifics, are going over pretty well. But then you've probably all seen that in your neck of the woods as well.

WALLACE: Jane, set the stage for us. What exactly happens on June 30? Is there some ceremony, some actual transfer of power, something the Iraqis will actually see, to see that this handover has actually taken place?

ARRAF: There will be a ceremony of some sorts. But it's indicative of how serious the security situation is here, how precarious it is, that it is shrouded in secrecy. We're not even told exactly what day it might be. It could be the day before, it could be the day of. We're not told exactly where it will be.

What Iraqis will see, if they have electricity in their homes, is -- turning on the TV, they will see some sort of ceremony in which there is a transfer to handover. But it will not be an elaborate affair. It won't be anything grandiose. It will be simple and meaningful, as is befitting the circumstances, but something that will be, due to the security, quite low key.

HAYS: OK. Jane Arraf, thank you so much for that report. Of course, the handover is definitely ON THE STORY for you in coming days?

ARRAF: Absolutely. The handover, and looking south and west as well. In Najaf, we saw that -- this is an example of how precarious it really is -- a convoy that took the wrong turn, went near the holy shrines and came under fire. Now that could have upset the cease-fire: a wrong turn taken at a traffic light, essentially. We're keeping an eye on what's happening in Najaf and Karbala; we're keeping an eye on what's happening in Fallujah. And then, of course, there is Baghdad.

HAYS: Well you can believe that everybody here is keeping an eye as you do that.

From the real battlefields of Iraq to the conflict here in the United States over equal pay. The Wal-Mart case when we're back ON THE STORY.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRISTINE KWAPNOSKI, WAL-MART EMPLOYEE: I've been promoted over several times; ended up training the male counterparts that were being promoted over me.

(END VIDEO CLIP) HAYS: That's Christine Kwapnoski, one of the women suing Wal- Mart in what's the largest civil rights case against the largest private employer in the United States. And also a very large reminder that the business world still has problems over pay and gender discrimination.

Welcome back. We're ON THE STORY.

BASH: And Kathleen, you said it's the largest discrimination case. Tell us the details. How exactly did this come down?

HAYS: This is going to be up to 1.6 million women. These are women who have worked at Wal-Mart since 1998. A judge ruled this week that this case, which has been in the works since 2001, could go forward as a class-action suit because the women do have similar complaints.

Wal-Mart says, of course, they didn't rule on the merits of the case. That's true. Wal-Mart is going to fight this. But it was started by a woman, Betty Dukes, 10 years ago, who went to work at Wal-Mart. Her goal in life at Wal-Mart was to become a manager. And time and time again, she would try to get the job. Suddenly a manager would leave, and a man would fill the job. The job was never posted.

MESERVE: Kathleen, we've been talking about pay discrimination for decades and decades and decades. There has been litigation. There has been legislation. Why are we still having this discussion? Why do cases like this still come to the forefront?

HAYS: Well, this is such a -- this is such a complicated issue because you could start -- you could say, Well, just gender stereotyping. There is -- I think some people agree if you look at the numbers -- if you look at the fact that women on average make 70 cents for every dollar that men make, if you look at the fact that education doesn't make any difference. The more education you get, the gender discrimination, the gap is as bad or worse. I mean, women doctors make 63 percent of what male doctors make.

MESERVE: I guess my question is this, though...

HAYS: Why?

MESERVE: Will this case make any difference? There have been others.

HAYS: Good point. Good point. Because there -- actually, there have been other cases; there are cases in the works right now.

I think people figure because this is so big -- Wal-Mart is the biggest one -- because Wal-Mart is going to want to settle. But even if they settle, the legal experts say, they're still going to be on the hook for billions of dollar.

This is considered a wake-up call to corporate America that -- maybe it's just the bulk of these cases, maybe it's women in the work force long enough, many it's the case there's been so much more emphasis on diversity, on various kinds of discrimination. But Wal- Mart seems to be the watershed case. If the women win this one, what company isn't going to start looking at its pay scales between women -- men and women and its policies and not worry that they're going to get sued, too?

WALLACE: Kathleen, how much does this have to do with the view of some women that women are sort of in the workforce, but that the male in the family is the main breadwinner and that we know that in current society that is not the case? But how much is that a factor here, about the differential between the male and female salaries at a place like Wal-Mart?

HAYS: Well, you know, I think it's -- you -- when you -- when you read what the cases -- the many, many cases -- in fact, Deborah Fox (ph), who is with the Equal Rights Advocates -- we interviewed her this week. She's one of the attorneys that brought this case. She says this is just -- this is another reason she thinks they'll win, Jeanne, because the statistical evidence she says is the strongest in 50 years. They have so much evidence.

You hear women saying over and over that a man told me, "Oh, come on, honey. You know that that young man with two kids to support, he -- he deserves more money. That's why he's becoming a manager. We know that women are housewives who just need some extra cash. That's why they work in retail."

Now, experts also point out that it's true, women do leave the workforce more often. Women are still the primary caregivers, especially for the smallest children. Maybe even women do the bulk of the housework. So there are some actual choices that women make that do sometimes slow down their careers.

I think people admit this is a very complicated situation. I think people on the cutting edge are saying, though, You know what? The workplaces have to change. In fact, Calvert, which is the socially responsible investing fund, a huge one, joined forces with the U.N. this week, and they issued a set of -- a global code of conduct for corporations to deal with women in the workforce.

I really think the consciousness is changing and that's the direction corporations are being pushed.

BASH: The question is, this is -- we're talking about a retail situation. How much do you think, from the corporate perspective, this is going to translate into, really, for real, into other companies in the country?

HAYS: You know what's interesting? You talk about retail. The retail industry overall has had a lot of these cases brought against them, and they've already made changes. They're -- outside of Wal- Mart, when you look at other big retails, they have -- they have a more proportional representation of women who are in management relative to the number of women who work in their stores.

There -- there seems to be a sense also -- there was an interesting study release by Catalyst. It's a women's empowerment -- you know, women in work place group, that showed that -- they looked at the 350 of the Fortune 500 companies for about five years and found that women -- more women in senior management positions meant better return on equity, better returns to shareholders. So their argument is -- it reflects a better-run company, using all the skills of all its employees to their fullest advantage.

MESERVE: Are there things about the way women view their work, and women deal with their employers, that may be having an impact here?

HAYS: Well, we know that we're always told we should be -- we underestimate ourselves, we're not assertive enough in negotiations for promotions and pay...

MESERVE: Have you noticed that's a problem here?

BASH: Yes. Quite an unassertive group.

HAYS: Yes. Yes. And of course, my feeling is that I think someone should do a study sometime of women who are assertive and see what happened to them when they were assertive. Because I do there is a male reaction to that sometimes too. The men are assertive, and the men like it and they identify with it.

But I think also in fairness to men and to people who employ men and women, that people do say that we as women have to also change the way we deal with our bosses.

WALLACE: Kathleen, one quick question, looking to the stock market. We were just talking in the last segment about the handover in Iraq on June 30. Any jitters on the market about that upcoming date?

HAYS: Yes. That's -- in fact, all the violence in Iraq was a big issue for the markets. But June 30 isn't just the handover of people in Iraq. It's also the day the Federal Reserve meets, expected to raise its key short-term rate by a quarter point, first rate hike in six years.

The interesting thing, people figure is though, once that's out of the way, the stock market could rally, far from being hurt from short-term rate. So we'll see what happens next Wednesday.

BASH: Keep your fingers crossed.

WALLACE: All right.

HAYS:

WALLACE: Yes. Fingers crossed.

Well moving from the economy and that Wal-Mart case, to another big business story, and this one has to do with the book of former President Bill Clinton. I'm back on that story after this.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL CLINTON, FMR. PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's amazing. I'm very moved.

WALLACE: They're calling it the Harry Potter of adult books.

CLINTON: Maybe I'll get some glasses like Harry Potter.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Former President Bill Clinton seems to enjoy being compared to Harry Potter, but I guess we hate to break the news to him. While his book, on its first day of release, broke the record for nonfiction, selling 400,000 copies, the most recent Harry Potter novel sold 5 million copies on day one.

Still, this is Bill Clinton's latest campaign. He's out to sell a lot of books, but also polish his legacy along the way.

Welcome back. We are ON THE STORY.

MESERVE: Kelly, I was talking to someone last night who dismissed the book and some of the accompanying interviews as saying Clinton on the couch, saying it's very heavy on psychoanalysis, self- analysis and a little weak on historical perspective.

But clearly, that's not the mind-set of the people who are flocking to the bookstores to buy it.

WALLACE: That is not the mind-set.

You know, a lot of people are saying sort of this is the age of Oprah. You had the president sitting there for an hour with Oprah.

People are coming out -- you had people getting up in the middle of the night in New York City, standing in line throughout the evening, into the early morning hours, to get a copy of the book, but mainly, also, to see the former president. There continues to be sort of this fascination with Bill Clinton, about what he is saying in this book, what he didn't say and also about the former president. You had his tremendous supporters there, but even some critics who were just curious about this man.

HAYS: So what are they saying? Because, you know, I -- you know, President Clinton is one of the few presidents you kind of understand that he has groupies. You know, he's that charismatic guy.

But -- you know, so what are people saying when you're talking to them, you know, working the ropes at those crowds?

WALLACE: They love -- the people that turned out, Kathleen, groupies, you could say, they love him. I mean, it was raining, pouring rain at one point on Tuesday, and people are still standing there, saying that they love him, they love his policies, they love everything about him. You have those people who think he got a bum rap, and thought that the Republicans were very hard on him after Monica Lewinsky.

It's interesting, though, you do even have people are sort of -- think he was, you know, not a great president and didn't do so much in terms of policy. But there still is this fascination, still want to be there, want to get a sense of him, watching him.

There was one critic I talked to who said, You know, sort of a fascination with Bill Clinton, you're always wanting to watch to see what happens next, because you think there could continue to be intrigue. So that seemed to be bringing people out as well.

BASH: Let's talk about what's in the book, Kelly. Any dirt? I mean, anything that we didn't actually know?

(CROSSTALK)

WALLACE: Oh, my goodness, have we not heard it all already?

BASH: Have we, or haven't we? You tell us.

WALLACE: I think we have.

He did so many interviews before this book, in print and on television that you sort of -- it was almost, like, anticlimactic when the book came out. And obviously, a lot of focus on Monica Lewinsky, his affair with the White House intern. He is talking about why he was sort of lying for months and months, how worried he was about it, how angry he is at Ken Starr and the media. He feels like the media did not become tough enough on Ken Starr and his investigations.

He talked very personally about the impact on his marriage, how wife Hillary was considering divorce, and it was only after therapy a day, a week for nearly a year or more than a year that the family stayed together.

Some people are very surprised, Dana, because he talks so personally in these interviews and in the book about this -- sort of these darkest days of his presidency that you almost get a sense his actual presidency is not really the focus. Many people say it's almost as if, you know, he just sort of was quickly writing a diary of where he was and what he did. You didn't really get a sense of those eight years, policy like health care, welfare reform, the Camp David peace process. You just really didn't get a full sense of what was going on behind the scenes there.

MESERVE: Is he revising history in this book? Are there some real inconsistencies between what he's saying and what the public record is?

WALLACE: Well, you know, you get a sense -- that's going to be hard to say, Jeanne, you know, as we go down the road. You know, he even says I'm not sure this is sort of a great book, but it's a great story. Whether he is going to be a great president and go down in history as one, no one really knows for sure. It is clear, though during his presidency -- and you know, you covered him -- he wanted to sort of be a trailblazer. He wanted to establish some legacy, some real sort of standing with the American people. And what some people are saying is the sad thing is right now, the legacy really is the White House affair with Monica Lewinsky, and the battle over impeachment. That's sort of his legacy, at least in this book tour that we're hearing.

HAYS: So does John Kerry need to be worried that he's getting overshadowed by this? And what does it mean for wife Hillary and her potential political aspirations?

WALLACE: Well, we were laughing. Isn't this the time when the Democrat that's supposed to be on center stage right now, just a month before the Democratic convention, should be John Kerry, not Bill Clinton? And so we've been asking Kerry advisers, are you upset about this, Bill Clinton sucking all the oxygen out of the air?

And they say look, they think that Bill Clinton is popular in lots of places in this country. And if he goes to those places, talks about his book, talks about how strong the economy was during his presidency, and talks along the way about John Kerry, that is a good thing.

But also, Kathleen, people think this is also Bill Clinton preparing possibly for his wife to run in 2008, if John Kerry doesn't win in 2004. He has been asked in interview after interview about it. And he says he thinks his wife would make a magnificent president. But right now, remains to be seen what will happen and whether she will run.

BASH: Kelly, it's so interesting, what you said about Senator Kerry's campaign.

First of all, I guess the question is, do they really believe that or is that sort of what they have to say?

WALLACE: Spin, Dana, spin.

BASH: But also, what a difference four years makes. You know, President Clinton was nowhere to be seen when Al Gore was on the campaign trail. Is it just that they think that people have sort of gotten over it, or they think that Bill Clinton is just so magnetic that they really do need him now?

WALLACE: Well, I think the thinking is after what we saw in 2000, that overall, the thinking is, at least on part of Kerry advisers, that Al Gore might have made a mistake, that he should have deployed Bill Clinton to the places where he's popular, not everywhere.

And they also think that people have sort of not forgotten. But the tide has turned, that people might be accepting Bill Clinton and the sort of remorse that he's putting forward, and are -- might be somewhat angry at Republicans for what happened to him. MESERVE: Well, something that hangs over all political deliberations and predictions this year is terrorism. I'm back on the homeland security story.

And an expensive new tool to protect U.S. borders.

All that in a moment. But right now, to Atlanta and a check on what's making news at this hour.

GRIFFIN: President Bush has wrapped up a meeting with European Union leaders in Ireland. Topping the agenda was the handover of political power in Iraq, which is now just four days away. Mr. Bush asked the European leaders to back his efforts to build stability in Iraq. Mr. Bush's next stop now: the NATO summit in Turkey.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: The NATO mission in Afghanistan is helping people of that country establish democracy after years of tyranny. And NATO has the capability, and I believe the responsibility, to help the Iraqi people defeat the terrorist threat that's facing their country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRIFFIN: A New Jersey native being remembered today with a memorial service in his home state. Paul Johnson is the engineer beheaded in Saudi Arabia last week after being kidnapped by al-Qaeda- linked militants. Johnson had worked in Saudi Arabia for over a decade. CNN will have live coverage of that memorial just ahead at 1:00 p.m. Eastern on CNN.

The beheading of a South Korean worker in Iraq has drawn anti-war protesters. The body of Kim Sun-il has been returned to South Korea. The government plans to dispatch another 3,000 South Korean troops to bolster U.S. forces in Iraq.

And after less than two years in office, government officials say Pakistan's prime minister, Zafarullah Khan Jamali, has resigned. The news follows months of tense relations between Jamali and President General Pervez Musharraf. It's unclear whether the resignation will mean the dissolution of the cabinet there.

Those are the top stories at this hour. I'm Drew Griffin. ON THE STORY is back after a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MESERVE: Welcome back. We're ON THE STORY, talking about homeland security with new concerns that summer, with high-profile public events, could mean new terrorist attacks.

Welcome back. We're ON THE STORY. And welcome to my colleague, Octavia Nasr, CNN's senior editor for Arab affairs, who is joining us now from Atlanta.

OCTAVIA NASR, CNN SR. EDITOR FOR ARAB AFFAIRS: And Jeanne, I do have a question for you.

With all that we're hearing about, around the world, violence that keeps escalating, what are the plans for the Fourth of July? Are we going to have a happy Fourth?

MESERVE: No predicting on whether it will be happy or not. But I can tell you that a bulletin went out last night from the Department of Homeland Security to state and local homeland security advisers, also to the private sector, warning them to take appropriate precautions, particularly around large gatherings. They said, once again, we do see intelligence that indicates that al Qaeda is preparing and -- preparing and planning and perhaps ready to attack in this country. They emphasize, as they have before. However, we have no specific intelligence as to when, where, or how any particular attack might take place.

This was a very long bulletin, several pages at length. It was described as more robust than the bulletin they put out last year on the Fourth of July and instructed locals to take a look at critical infrastructure, in particular. Everything from nuclear power plants, to railways, to subways, to be on the lookout for suicide bombings, to be on the lookout for pre-operational sorts of surveillance. So very broad, very encompassing.

HAYS: Jeanne, is there any sense -- and of course, there's going to be so many big events.

MESERVE: Yes.

HAYS: You know, and we're going to have the Republican convention New York, the Democratic convention in Boston. You name it, there's all kinds of things.

Is there any sense, though, that there's more worry or that the intelligence is more robust because of the escalation of violence in Iraq, the insurgency there? Is there a sense that the terrorists are heating up somehow?

MESERVE: Well, there's been a sense that the terrorists are heating up for some time, because just simply the intelligence that they've been picking up and that the level of information coming in has remained fairly high. But they just don't have anything specific on this.

Of course, the handover is a matter of concern. It's one of the things that comes into play here. But separate and apart from that, it's just that you have so many of these very high-profile events, several of them designated as national special security events, where you're going to have large gatherings of people, a lot of prominent people present.

They're very nervous about the whole sequence. It started with World War II memorial. It will go right through the inauguration.

BASH: I want to ask you about airport security. I remember when the homeland security bill was in congress. There was a huge debate about whether or not the people who check -- the TSA, the people who check our bags and so forth, the security at the airport, should be public or should be private. Because many argued the private sector would do a better job.

You went to San Francisco where there is a private company that's doing it. What's answer?

MESERVE: In the interest of honesty, I didn't actually go to San Francisco. But we did take a look at what was happening in San Francisco. That was one of five airports where they went ahead with private screeners, when all the other airports were federalized. San Francisco has been happy with what's happened there.

And by the way, if you're a traveler there, you'd never know that they weren't federal screeners. They wear that TSA patch on their -- on their shoulder. They're under TSA supervisions, but they are the employees of a private contractor.

San Francisco's very happy. They want to stay with the private contractors. There have been studies that have compared the two and said really they're about the same. In the words of the Department of Homeland Security inspector general, that means equally poorly.

BASH: OK.

(CROSSTALK)

MESERVE: But what happened this week is that airports are now being given guidance. If you want to opt out of the federal system, you can and here's how you do it. It's going to take a while for it to happen. It's unclear how many airports will actually carry through and make that move. But they have the option coming up they'll be able to apply this fall.

WALLACE: Jeanne, we did see, though, of course, in Arizona, a very interesting story about these unmanned aerial vehicles to patrol the border.

Is this something that will work, and there's a sense of privacy concerns here, almost like big brother is watching from the sky.

MESERVE: Right. This is just a test. They're testing of two these UAVs down on the border with Mexico right now.

Of course, we know about the technology. UAVs have been for a long time by the military. There's a fair degree of confidence about their reliability. But they don't know how they can apply to the homeland security mission. So they've sent them up with special cameras and infrared embedded on them, surveying the border. They want to see how quickly that information gets back to the ground, how quickly it's processed, if indeed it does bring efficiencies to the system.

There are concerns about it when it come to privacy. Heck, these things are up in the air. They can zoom in and see things very small. You know, are they really going to be looking for illegal immigrants or hey, how about the pretty woman in her swimming pool?

(CROSSTALK)

MESERVE: Well, that is a question. And that's what they're looking at now. I mean, is it that they'll go up and a UAV will detect some illegal activity on the border and be able to direct forces in, or is there a better way to do this, with the sensors on the ground and people on the ground, do it?

HAYS: Quickly ask you about this general question about security, all these events. When you talk to colleagues -- you travel so much -- in CNN, outside CNN, how do journalists feel you talk to about covering something like the convention, something where they feel it could really be a target?

MESERVE: You know, on any number of stories, I'm asked by people, are we safe to be here? It started actually with the Washington sniper. I remember one of my colleagues and saying, are we safe to be here? I said, Oh, yeah, here we are outside police headquarters, we're fine. In fact, we later found out that the police were terrified that somebody was going to be hit there and they had snipers on the rooftop.

So, you know, there's a reason to be concerned whenever we cover these things. There really is.

But I want to just return to the effectiveness issue of the drones, for just a moment if I could. A lot of people are saying technology is never going to solve this problem. Whether it's UAVs, or something on the ground, there simply aren't enough people working on the borders of this country.

And they say the policies aren't yet the right ones. We aren't doing enough to discourage people from coming over or making life better on the other side of the border.

BASH: Well, speaking of policies, we're going to go from homeland security to the world stage, and President Bush, again hoping U.S. allies will offer new help for the reconstruction of Iraq. I'm back on that story after this.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: Dana Bash is a CNN White House correspondent. Previously, she was a Capitol Hill producer for CNN. The National Press Foundation gave her its Dirksen Award in 2002 for distinguished reporting on Congress. She graduated cum laude from George Washington University.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) (CHANTING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: Demonstrators in Turkey this week, warming up for the president's arrival later today, a sign of what he has to overcome, perhaps, to convince world leaders to take a more active role in Iraq.

Welcome back. We're ON THE STORY.

HAYS: But Dana, he seems to feel that we're on the right track, that he -- didn't he say that the bitter differences have been put behind us?

BASH: That was what he said this morning. He had a press conference in Ireland. And certainly, that's the theme here.

This is part two in George W. Bush's world leaders mend-fending tour. He started out earlier this month, he was in Georgia, the G-8 summit. And that's the whole goal, is to say, Look, we had our differences in Iraq, we're moving on. And primarily, what's he trying to do on this trip is to get approval, at least rhetorical approval, political support, for helping out in Iraq, and specifically getting NATO to agree to train the Iraqi security forces. We heard from Jane, that's obviously the big issue there.

When he was just in Ireland this morning, he got a letter of support from the European Union. That's something that they hope certainly will help. And they do think that they're going to get some sort of blessing from NATO. But the big question is, what does it mean? Where are they going to train the troops? How many countries from NATO are going to help train the troops?

It's a big, open question, and it's lot more modest than what they were hoping to get just a little while ago.

NASR: Dana, when you read the world press on this issue, it seems like they see Mr. Bush as someone who is not genuine in this offer, that this is only because this is an election year and he hopes to be re-elected. So he wants it to look like he has the international support in Iraq, in order to counterattack Kerry's claim that the U.S. is in this alone.

How's this seen from the White House? Do they have any answer to this?

BASH: Well, certainly, the whole idea of going out and trying to get the world leaders' support is something that they do hope will help against John Kerry, who says constantly that his "go-alone strategy" got us into this mess.

But what's interesting is what the president is doing now. He's not saying, "This is not for me. This is not for the United States. This is for the Iraqi people." And he's bringing with him a letter, saying this is a request from the new Iraqi prime minister, saying to the European leaders, how can you say no to a man who was essentially the democratic leader in Iraq? You go ahead. You know, say no to him. It's -- they hope it will make it harder for the Europeans to bulk at what the United States is trying to do.

But what's interesting -- you mentioned European and other support. I just want to show you a new poll that we got this week about the support in America for the president. Let's take a look at this poll. I believe we have it. It shows that 54 percent of Americans now think that going to war in Iraq was a mistake. And that's -- you see that up from just 41 percent...

HAYS: Pretty dramatic.

BASH: ...at the beginning of the month.

Dramatic, and that is certainly not something that the White House thought would be the case -- what? -- a year and a half, more, after the war in Iraq began. And when you ask the Bush campaign about this how dire this is for the campaign, they say, Look, it's not good. We admit it. But that's part of the problem being an incumbent, part of the problem of being an incumbent with the -- with the war president.

But they still maintain that they don't believe that this is necessarily indicative of John Kerry's support. It just means that there's bad news out there and they don't think that John Kerry doesn't necessarily has the positive support that could help him beat the president on this.

WALLACE: Dana, I was going to specifically ask you about that poll. Because it clearly had to get the attention of White House officials.

Behind the scenes though, how concerned are they that this number in particular could really be crucial in these months ahead? If more Americans are thinking it was a mistake to even go into Iraq in the first place, that has got to be very difficult for his re-election.

BASH: Well, they're concerned because it's -- look, Kelly, it's an unknown. It's an absolute unknown. And what's been interesting to watch is the way that they've been pushing the domestic issues recently. They've been pushing the economy.

If you would have told the Bush campaign that they would be pushing the good economic story six months ago, they would have laughed you out of the room. And that's what they've been doing with ads and so forth. And they've been absolutely dying because all of the economic news has been buried by Iraq.

HAYS: And this poll shows -- still shows people choosing Bush as commander in chief over Kerry, correct?

BASH: Correct. Correct.

MESERVE: I want to change topics just a little bit, and take your back to your days of covering Capitol Hill ...

HAYS: But she likes dirt, remember?

MESERVE: An amazing scene on the Senate floor this week, where we had the vice president using an obscenity talking to a senator.

Your impressions, as someone who knows the protocol and how things are usually done on Capitol Hill.

BASH: Well, this is truly a remarkable story. This is sort of the ultimate water cooler story, isn't it?

But first we should say that this was first reported by our Capitol Hill team, out CNN Capitol Hill team. And essentially what happened was, they were on the Senate floor, but the Senate wasn't in session. So you're not supposed to use obscenity on the Senate floor when the Senate is in session. There really aren't rules for when you're on the Senate and they're not.

They were taking a class photo, and apparently what happened was that Dick Cheney and Senator Patrick Leahy of Vermont saw each other. And Patrick Leahy has been saying things, like many Democrats have, about Dick Cheney and his ties to Halliburton. And they had some word, and Dick Cheney either apparently either said "Blank off" or "Go Blank yourself." And it's something that has certainly caused quite a stir.

And the vice president didn't exactly say what the word he used was, but didn't he deny that he had this exchange with the senator. And we have some tape of him. Let's listen to it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He is the kind of individual who will make those kinds of charges, and then come act as though he's your best friend. And I expressed in no uncertain terms my views of his conduct, and walked away.

NEIL CAVUTO, FOX NEWS HOST: Did you curse at him?

CHENEY: Probably.

CAVUTO: Do you have any regrets?

CHENEY: No. I said it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: He said that he said it and that he thought that other people were quite happy that he said it. Clearly, not somebody who is unhappy about what he did.

And this has caused quite an uproar on the campaign trail. You've seen democrats put out statements immediately, immediately calling the vice president the potty mouth. You heard Kelly Wallace -- we were talk earlier about the fact that John Kerry said, you know, Dick Cheney wants to curse, he's going to something to curse about in November after we win the election. HAYS: Well, he can't criticize. He used the "f" word himself, didn't -- didn't John Kerry use it in an interview with Rolling Stone magazine or something?

WALLACE: Well, he did, and then Andy Card, the White House chief of staff, criticized John Kerry for using the "f" word. So the sort of the blame game is going...

(CROSSTALK)

NASR: All right ladies, leaving the profanity aside and going back to the president, his words and actions are studied closely in the Arab world, and often within different understanding than here in the United States.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN NEGROPONTE, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO IRAQ: As I prepare to go to Iraq as United States ambassador, I do so with a clear mission: to offer support and assistance to the Iraqi people and government, as Iraq reasserts its full sovereignty.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NASR: Newly sworn-in U.S. ambassador to Iraq on Wednesday, said he had a clear mission to support and assist the Iraqi government. Clear to him, but in Iraq and the Arab world, the picture, as seen in television and newspaper reports is something different.

Welcome back. We're ON THE STORY.

BASH: And Octavia, you spend your time watching Arab media. And I'm wondering what the reaction was you saw by the fact the White House this week released hundreds of documents, trying to prove the president's policy towards interrogation of prisoners does not include torture.

Did it fly?

NASR: Believe it or not, this story is a bit passe in Arab media already. They've done the story so much. They have this distrust of the U.S. at this point. You read it in articles, you watch it on television. This is like an unstory sort of at this point. It's just another way to cover the story.

What they're focusing on, really, is the violence in Iraq. This is really concerning if you look at the way they're covering it versus the way we cover it. For example, we have our shows called "Countdown to Handover." There, there's no mention of the handover. It seems like it's countdown to doomsday, sort of, and a lot of focus on the violence and how this relates to the U.S., rather than those documents on the torture.

MESERVE: Clearly, Octavia, there's been a lot of dissatisfaction with the Bush administration in the Arab world. Is much attention being played -- paid to the U.S. election? Is there a belief that a change in administration will bring a change in policy, or not?

NASR: It looks like it, yes. They are focusing much -- they have -- al-Jazeera, for example, has a weekly show looking at just that, the upcoming U.S. elections. They debate it. They look at the candidates -- including Nader, by the way -- how their policies might change things in the Middle East, and especially Iraq and the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.

Much attention on this issue. And I have to tell you -- and I don't think this is a secret any more -- the president, George W. Bush is not a popular man on Arab streets, and certainly not on Arab media. So they're starting to look at the other options to see if Kerry or Nader will make a difference.

WALLACE: Octavia, are you seeing any shift in the Arab media, especially as the Arab world sees not just Americans killed in Iraq, but Iraqis because of actions by the Iraqi insurgent leader, Zarqawi. Is there any sense that people are starting to criticize his actions because Iraqi (AUDIO GAP) themselves?

NASR: Absolutely. Not just criticism. You're hearing voices on Arab media: imams at mosques, experts, terrorism experts, even those who deal with only issues of jihadi groups -- al Qaeda, for example. They're saying this is a big shift for these groups, such as al Qaeda. If Zarqawi is closely allied to al Qaeda and he represents them in Iraq, they're saying this is a major shift in ideology. When they start killing the Iraqis and the innocent Iraqis, and now they're focusing, on Arab media, how these attacks -- and these insurgents are attacking individuals, political leaders, political representatives, and so forth, they're saying this is a major shift, and it's leading to chaos.

Right now, it doesn't seem like these attacks are going anywhere. It's just attacking for the sake of attacking and killing.

HAYS: Octavia, beheadings shocked and disgust people in the United States, people around the world.

Is it different in the Arab world? Do they share our revulsion at these acts?

NASR: They do. A lot of dismay, a lot of shock, as you said. We keep hearing the words, "This is not our culture; this is not our religion," and so forth.

Now you have to understand, you know, when you ask the question, Why do criminals commit the crimes that they do, they do it because they have their own mind-set. They believe -- they live in their own world, they have their own beliefs. So in the Arab media, they're trying to explain that these people also are doing these things, because that's what they believe, not because they represent the culture.

MESERVE: And we're back ON THE STORY right after this. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: The women on CNN and ON THE STORY were in the spotlight this week. What's our story? More after this.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: ON THE STORY was honored this week with a Gracie Allen Award for Outstanding Public Affairs Program. The award is from the Foundation of American Women in Radio and Television.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We leverage the media to educate and empower women, promote quality programming and strengthen our local communities.

ANNOUNCER: ON THE STORY executive producer Lucy Spiegel (ph) accepted the award in New York.

Congratulation to the women of CNN, ON THE STORY every week.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HAYS: Thanks so much to my colleagues and thank you for watching on the ON THE STORY. We'll be back next week, of course.

Still ahead, "PEOPLE IN THE NEWS," focusing this week on Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.

Coming up right now, a check of the top stories.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired June 26, 2004 - 10:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DREW GRIFFIN, CNN ANCHOR: News at this hour:
President Bush says he thinks the bitter division over the Iraq war have ended and there's a -- some consensus on helping Iraq rebuild and govern itself. Mr. Bush was asked how long U.S. troops will remain in Iraq.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We will stay as long as necessary, and then we will leave. We will complete the mission. And the faster the Iraqis take over their own security needs, the faster the mission will end.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRIFFIN: The president spoke after attending a European Union conference that was taking place in Ireland. The president is shortly heading for Ankara, Turkey, where demonstrators are waiting for him. Security tight in the Turkish capital. Mr. Bush will meet Turkey's president and prime minister. On Monday, Mr. Bush will attend that NATO summit. That's in Istanbul.

In Iraq, clashes today in Najaf. A U.S. Army Convoy coming under fire after take a wrong turn and heading toward the city's holy shrines. The convoy turned around after insurgents opened fire. No casualties to report there.

I'm Drew Griffin at the CNN global headquarters in Atlanta. ON THE STORY begins right now.

JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Welcome to CNN's ON THE STORY, where our journalists have the inside word on the stories we covered this week.

I'm Jeanne Meserve, ON THE STORY of homeland security as we move into summer, and heightened concerns about possible terror attacks.

JANE ARRAF, CNN BAGHDAD BUREAU CHIEF: I'm Jane Arraf in Baghdad, ON THE STORY of deadly days here and the final countdown to the transfer to sovereignty to Iraqis.

DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: I'm Dana Bash, ON THE STORY of the president losing support for his Iraq policy at home, and overseas making a pitch to allies for help. KELLY WALLACE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Kelly Wallace in New York, ON THE STORY of the latest Bill Clinton campaign to sell his book, tell his story, and maybe help his wife and John Kerry along the way.

KATHLEEN HAYS, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT: And I'm Kathleen Hays ON THE STORY of the biggest-ever class-action civil rights case, against Wal- Mart.

We'll talk to CNN's Octavia Nasr about how events in Iraq are seen and reported in the Arab world.

And here in the United States, we'll talk about how moviemaker Michael Moore hopes to change minds and votes.

E-mail us at ONTHESTORY@cnn.com.

Now straight to Jane Arraf and the road to handover.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

IYAD ALLAWI, IRAQ INTERIM PRIME MINISTER: I would like to assure you and to assure the Iraqi people, these are isolated incidents. We are going to face them and we are going to defeat them and we are going to crush them. And we are not going to allow the Iraqi people to be injured and to be undermined. We are going to end -- and we are going to prevail.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ARRAF: That was interim Prime Minister Iyad Allawi. And he was speaking to Iraqis after one of the deadliest days in Iraq, on Thursday, multiple attacks in multiple cities. More than 100 people dead. 300 injured. And in that run-up to the handover, happening on Wednesday, the focus, of course, for Iraqis for journalists, for everyone, for officials particularly in this country, is security.

WALLACE: Jane, what impact is the latest violence having on everyday Iraqis? Their view of this handover -- what it will actually mean for them, and their security?

ARRAF: Well, certainly, when you have all these car bombs going off, it makes people more uneasy. And what makes them even more disturbed, perhaps, and more concerned, are warnings that it could get worse, which we're seeing just about every day.

Now, we have to keep reminding people that because there are attacks, because there are car bombs, it doesn't mean that this city particularly has come to a complete standstill. I mean, just behind me, we're in a major square, and there are people driving. There are people out on the streets. The shops are open.

It's kind of amazing. This is a big city. It's a resilient city. It's full of people who have lived through this for months and months and months. And they hope to live through it for a while longer. So they're kind of getting by.

MESERVE: Jane, with so many Iraqis being killed are you seeing a shift in political opinion?

ARRAF: You know, it's really interesting. There have been all these called for martial law. I think we've talked about a little bit, about the incongruity, that you will have a country that now is sovereign, and one of its first acts might be, OK, we're going to clamp down and impose martial law.

Now to us that doesn't seem like a great thing, but to Iraqis it's kind of amazingly popular. And I think what's happening is that they are becoming more convinced that these are desperate times and they call for desperate measures. They will follow pretty well anyone who convinces them that he can clean up the streets, round up terrorists, and basically make them feel safe again. And that seems to be some shift in what's happening in people's feelings here.

HAYS: Well, I wonder about their feelings about safety, as they shift from United States' forces being the No. 1 in command for security, to Iraqi forces. I love the way the U.S. military comes up with names: shock and awe when we went into Iraq, now it's Operation New Dawn. What's that going to mean in Iraq?

ARRAF: Gosh, it's probably not going to have a whole -- make a whole lot of difference.

Really, clearly, as you've all seen and you've all felt in the stories you've covered -- you're covering, I'm sure, the U.S. wants to put the best possible face on this, which is, this is a new dawn. This is Iraq's country; this is a country that belongs to Iraqis, run by Iraqis. It's their problems to solve.

The reality isn't quite so simple. They're not ready yet. No one believes they're ready yet. No one believes the Iraqi army can take over. There isn't really much of an Iraqi army. No one believes the police are in any shape to take over.

It is really an evolving process. And things are not going to be much different after July 1.

BASH: And Jane, one of the keys that you hear from the White House to making the Iraqi government work after June 30, is the perception of the prime minister and the whole government, that they are actually seen as legitimate.

What is your sense from people you talked to, Iraqis -- do they feel that the prime minister and others are actually their legitimate leaders?

ARRAF: I think nobody's going to feel that -- and this is probably human nature -- until they actually can go out and put their ballot in a ballot box and actually vote, which is what they were promised. They keep saying, "You promised us democracy."

This is not democracy. This is -- no one's pretending it is. This is an interim government; this is a caretaker government that's not really meant to have a whole lot of power. And it is headed by someone who is very close to the CIA, who was a former Baathist. Now if elections were held, they may very well choose him again. But on the surface, it isn't someone who, if Iraqis were to come up with a perfect image of what they would want in a prime minister, he probably wouldn't be it.

But he is a "get tough" kind of guy. And so far the things he's saying, although he's long on generalities and short on specifics, are going over pretty well. But then you've probably all seen that in your neck of the woods as well.

WALLACE: Jane, set the stage for us. What exactly happens on June 30? Is there some ceremony, some actual transfer of power, something the Iraqis will actually see, to see that this handover has actually taken place?

ARRAF: There will be a ceremony of some sorts. But it's indicative of how serious the security situation is here, how precarious it is, that it is shrouded in secrecy. We're not even told exactly what day it might be. It could be the day before, it could be the day of. We're not told exactly where it will be.

What Iraqis will see, if they have electricity in their homes, is -- turning on the TV, they will see some sort of ceremony in which there is a transfer to handover. But it will not be an elaborate affair. It won't be anything grandiose. It will be simple and meaningful, as is befitting the circumstances, but something that will be, due to the security, quite low key.

HAYS: OK. Jane Arraf, thank you so much for that report. Of course, the handover is definitely ON THE STORY for you in coming days?

ARRAF: Absolutely. The handover, and looking south and west as well. In Najaf, we saw that -- this is an example of how precarious it really is -- a convoy that took the wrong turn, went near the holy shrines and came under fire. Now that could have upset the cease-fire: a wrong turn taken at a traffic light, essentially. We're keeping an eye on what's happening in Najaf and Karbala; we're keeping an eye on what's happening in Fallujah. And then, of course, there is Baghdad.

HAYS: Well you can believe that everybody here is keeping an eye as you do that.

From the real battlefields of Iraq to the conflict here in the United States over equal pay. The Wal-Mart case when we're back ON THE STORY.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRISTINE KWAPNOSKI, WAL-MART EMPLOYEE: I've been promoted over several times; ended up training the male counterparts that were being promoted over me.

(END VIDEO CLIP) HAYS: That's Christine Kwapnoski, one of the women suing Wal- Mart in what's the largest civil rights case against the largest private employer in the United States. And also a very large reminder that the business world still has problems over pay and gender discrimination.

Welcome back. We're ON THE STORY.

BASH: And Kathleen, you said it's the largest discrimination case. Tell us the details. How exactly did this come down?

HAYS: This is going to be up to 1.6 million women. These are women who have worked at Wal-Mart since 1998. A judge ruled this week that this case, which has been in the works since 2001, could go forward as a class-action suit because the women do have similar complaints.

Wal-Mart says, of course, they didn't rule on the merits of the case. That's true. Wal-Mart is going to fight this. But it was started by a woman, Betty Dukes, 10 years ago, who went to work at Wal-Mart. Her goal in life at Wal-Mart was to become a manager. And time and time again, she would try to get the job. Suddenly a manager would leave, and a man would fill the job. The job was never posted.

MESERVE: Kathleen, we've been talking about pay discrimination for decades and decades and decades. There has been litigation. There has been legislation. Why are we still having this discussion? Why do cases like this still come to the forefront?

HAYS: Well, this is such a -- this is such a complicated issue because you could start -- you could say, Well, just gender stereotyping. There is -- I think some people agree if you look at the numbers -- if you look at the fact that women on average make 70 cents for every dollar that men make, if you look at the fact that education doesn't make any difference. The more education you get, the gender discrimination, the gap is as bad or worse. I mean, women doctors make 63 percent of what male doctors make.

MESERVE: I guess my question is this, though...

HAYS: Why?

MESERVE: Will this case make any difference? There have been others.

HAYS: Good point. Good point. Because there -- actually, there have been other cases; there are cases in the works right now.

I think people figure because this is so big -- Wal-Mart is the biggest one -- because Wal-Mart is going to want to settle. But even if they settle, the legal experts say, they're still going to be on the hook for billions of dollar.

This is considered a wake-up call to corporate America that -- maybe it's just the bulk of these cases, maybe it's women in the work force long enough, many it's the case there's been so much more emphasis on diversity, on various kinds of discrimination. But Wal- Mart seems to be the watershed case. If the women win this one, what company isn't going to start looking at its pay scales between women -- men and women and its policies and not worry that they're going to get sued, too?

WALLACE: Kathleen, how much does this have to do with the view of some women that women are sort of in the workforce, but that the male in the family is the main breadwinner and that we know that in current society that is not the case? But how much is that a factor here, about the differential between the male and female salaries at a place like Wal-Mart?

HAYS: Well, you know, I think it's -- you -- when you -- when you read what the cases -- the many, many cases -- in fact, Deborah Fox (ph), who is with the Equal Rights Advocates -- we interviewed her this week. She's one of the attorneys that brought this case. She says this is just -- this is another reason she thinks they'll win, Jeanne, because the statistical evidence she says is the strongest in 50 years. They have so much evidence.

You hear women saying over and over that a man told me, "Oh, come on, honey. You know that that young man with two kids to support, he -- he deserves more money. That's why he's becoming a manager. We know that women are housewives who just need some extra cash. That's why they work in retail."

Now, experts also point out that it's true, women do leave the workforce more often. Women are still the primary caregivers, especially for the smallest children. Maybe even women do the bulk of the housework. So there are some actual choices that women make that do sometimes slow down their careers.

I think people admit this is a very complicated situation. I think people on the cutting edge are saying, though, You know what? The workplaces have to change. In fact, Calvert, which is the socially responsible investing fund, a huge one, joined forces with the U.N. this week, and they issued a set of -- a global code of conduct for corporations to deal with women in the workforce.

I really think the consciousness is changing and that's the direction corporations are being pushed.

BASH: The question is, this is -- we're talking about a retail situation. How much do you think, from the corporate perspective, this is going to translate into, really, for real, into other companies in the country?

HAYS: You know what's interesting? You talk about retail. The retail industry overall has had a lot of these cases brought against them, and they've already made changes. They're -- outside of Wal- Mart, when you look at other big retails, they have -- they have a more proportional representation of women who are in management relative to the number of women who work in their stores.

There -- there seems to be a sense also -- there was an interesting study release by Catalyst. It's a women's empowerment -- you know, women in work place group, that showed that -- they looked at the 350 of the Fortune 500 companies for about five years and found that women -- more women in senior management positions meant better return on equity, better returns to shareholders. So their argument is -- it reflects a better-run company, using all the skills of all its employees to their fullest advantage.

MESERVE: Are there things about the way women view their work, and women deal with their employers, that may be having an impact here?

HAYS: Well, we know that we're always told we should be -- we underestimate ourselves, we're not assertive enough in negotiations for promotions and pay...

MESERVE: Have you noticed that's a problem here?

BASH: Yes. Quite an unassertive group.

HAYS: Yes. Yes. And of course, my feeling is that I think someone should do a study sometime of women who are assertive and see what happened to them when they were assertive. Because I do there is a male reaction to that sometimes too. The men are assertive, and the men like it and they identify with it.

But I think also in fairness to men and to people who employ men and women, that people do say that we as women have to also change the way we deal with our bosses.

WALLACE: Kathleen, one quick question, looking to the stock market. We were just talking in the last segment about the handover in Iraq on June 30. Any jitters on the market about that upcoming date?

HAYS: Yes. That's -- in fact, all the violence in Iraq was a big issue for the markets. But June 30 isn't just the handover of people in Iraq. It's also the day the Federal Reserve meets, expected to raise its key short-term rate by a quarter point, first rate hike in six years.

The interesting thing, people figure is though, once that's out of the way, the stock market could rally, far from being hurt from short-term rate. So we'll see what happens next Wednesday.

BASH: Keep your fingers crossed.

WALLACE: All right.

HAYS:

WALLACE: Yes. Fingers crossed.

Well moving from the economy and that Wal-Mart case, to another big business story, and this one has to do with the book of former President Bill Clinton. I'm back on that story after this.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL CLINTON, FMR. PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's amazing. I'm very moved.

WALLACE: They're calling it the Harry Potter of adult books.

CLINTON: Maybe I'll get some glasses like Harry Potter.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Former President Bill Clinton seems to enjoy being compared to Harry Potter, but I guess we hate to break the news to him. While his book, on its first day of release, broke the record for nonfiction, selling 400,000 copies, the most recent Harry Potter novel sold 5 million copies on day one.

Still, this is Bill Clinton's latest campaign. He's out to sell a lot of books, but also polish his legacy along the way.

Welcome back. We are ON THE STORY.

MESERVE: Kelly, I was talking to someone last night who dismissed the book and some of the accompanying interviews as saying Clinton on the couch, saying it's very heavy on psychoanalysis, self- analysis and a little weak on historical perspective.

But clearly, that's not the mind-set of the people who are flocking to the bookstores to buy it.

WALLACE: That is not the mind-set.

You know, a lot of people are saying sort of this is the age of Oprah. You had the president sitting there for an hour with Oprah.

People are coming out -- you had people getting up in the middle of the night in New York City, standing in line throughout the evening, into the early morning hours, to get a copy of the book, but mainly, also, to see the former president. There continues to be sort of this fascination with Bill Clinton, about what he is saying in this book, what he didn't say and also about the former president. You had his tremendous supporters there, but even some critics who were just curious about this man.

HAYS: So what are they saying? Because, you know, I -- you know, President Clinton is one of the few presidents you kind of understand that he has groupies. You know, he's that charismatic guy.

But -- you know, so what are people saying when you're talking to them, you know, working the ropes at those crowds?

WALLACE: They love -- the people that turned out, Kathleen, groupies, you could say, they love him. I mean, it was raining, pouring rain at one point on Tuesday, and people are still standing there, saying that they love him, they love his policies, they love everything about him. You have those people who think he got a bum rap, and thought that the Republicans were very hard on him after Monica Lewinsky.

It's interesting, though, you do even have people are sort of -- think he was, you know, not a great president and didn't do so much in terms of policy. But there still is this fascination, still want to be there, want to get a sense of him, watching him.

There was one critic I talked to who said, You know, sort of a fascination with Bill Clinton, you're always wanting to watch to see what happens next, because you think there could continue to be intrigue. So that seemed to be bringing people out as well.

BASH: Let's talk about what's in the book, Kelly. Any dirt? I mean, anything that we didn't actually know?

(CROSSTALK)

WALLACE: Oh, my goodness, have we not heard it all already?

BASH: Have we, or haven't we? You tell us.

WALLACE: I think we have.

He did so many interviews before this book, in print and on television that you sort of -- it was almost, like, anticlimactic when the book came out. And obviously, a lot of focus on Monica Lewinsky, his affair with the White House intern. He is talking about why he was sort of lying for months and months, how worried he was about it, how angry he is at Ken Starr and the media. He feels like the media did not become tough enough on Ken Starr and his investigations.

He talked very personally about the impact on his marriage, how wife Hillary was considering divorce, and it was only after therapy a day, a week for nearly a year or more than a year that the family stayed together.

Some people are very surprised, Dana, because he talks so personally in these interviews and in the book about this -- sort of these darkest days of his presidency that you almost get a sense his actual presidency is not really the focus. Many people say it's almost as if, you know, he just sort of was quickly writing a diary of where he was and what he did. You didn't really get a sense of those eight years, policy like health care, welfare reform, the Camp David peace process. You just really didn't get a full sense of what was going on behind the scenes there.

MESERVE: Is he revising history in this book? Are there some real inconsistencies between what he's saying and what the public record is?

WALLACE: Well, you know, you get a sense -- that's going to be hard to say, Jeanne, you know, as we go down the road. You know, he even says I'm not sure this is sort of a great book, but it's a great story. Whether he is going to be a great president and go down in history as one, no one really knows for sure. It is clear, though during his presidency -- and you know, you covered him -- he wanted to sort of be a trailblazer. He wanted to establish some legacy, some real sort of standing with the American people. And what some people are saying is the sad thing is right now, the legacy really is the White House affair with Monica Lewinsky, and the battle over impeachment. That's sort of his legacy, at least in this book tour that we're hearing.

HAYS: So does John Kerry need to be worried that he's getting overshadowed by this? And what does it mean for wife Hillary and her potential political aspirations?

WALLACE: Well, we were laughing. Isn't this the time when the Democrat that's supposed to be on center stage right now, just a month before the Democratic convention, should be John Kerry, not Bill Clinton? And so we've been asking Kerry advisers, are you upset about this, Bill Clinton sucking all the oxygen out of the air?

And they say look, they think that Bill Clinton is popular in lots of places in this country. And if he goes to those places, talks about his book, talks about how strong the economy was during his presidency, and talks along the way about John Kerry, that is a good thing.

But also, Kathleen, people think this is also Bill Clinton preparing possibly for his wife to run in 2008, if John Kerry doesn't win in 2004. He has been asked in interview after interview about it. And he says he thinks his wife would make a magnificent president. But right now, remains to be seen what will happen and whether she will run.

BASH: Kelly, it's so interesting, what you said about Senator Kerry's campaign.

First of all, I guess the question is, do they really believe that or is that sort of what they have to say?

WALLACE: Spin, Dana, spin.

BASH: But also, what a difference four years makes. You know, President Clinton was nowhere to be seen when Al Gore was on the campaign trail. Is it just that they think that people have sort of gotten over it, or they think that Bill Clinton is just so magnetic that they really do need him now?

WALLACE: Well, I think the thinking is after what we saw in 2000, that overall, the thinking is, at least on part of Kerry advisers, that Al Gore might have made a mistake, that he should have deployed Bill Clinton to the places where he's popular, not everywhere.

And they also think that people have sort of not forgotten. But the tide has turned, that people might be accepting Bill Clinton and the sort of remorse that he's putting forward, and are -- might be somewhat angry at Republicans for what happened to him. MESERVE: Well, something that hangs over all political deliberations and predictions this year is terrorism. I'm back on the homeland security story.

And an expensive new tool to protect U.S. borders.

All that in a moment. But right now, to Atlanta and a check on what's making news at this hour.

GRIFFIN: President Bush has wrapped up a meeting with European Union leaders in Ireland. Topping the agenda was the handover of political power in Iraq, which is now just four days away. Mr. Bush asked the European leaders to back his efforts to build stability in Iraq. Mr. Bush's next stop now: the NATO summit in Turkey.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: The NATO mission in Afghanistan is helping people of that country establish democracy after years of tyranny. And NATO has the capability, and I believe the responsibility, to help the Iraqi people defeat the terrorist threat that's facing their country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRIFFIN: A New Jersey native being remembered today with a memorial service in his home state. Paul Johnson is the engineer beheaded in Saudi Arabia last week after being kidnapped by al-Qaeda- linked militants. Johnson had worked in Saudi Arabia for over a decade. CNN will have live coverage of that memorial just ahead at 1:00 p.m. Eastern on CNN.

The beheading of a South Korean worker in Iraq has drawn anti-war protesters. The body of Kim Sun-il has been returned to South Korea. The government plans to dispatch another 3,000 South Korean troops to bolster U.S. forces in Iraq.

And after less than two years in office, government officials say Pakistan's prime minister, Zafarullah Khan Jamali, has resigned. The news follows months of tense relations between Jamali and President General Pervez Musharraf. It's unclear whether the resignation will mean the dissolution of the cabinet there.

Those are the top stories at this hour. I'm Drew Griffin. ON THE STORY is back after a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MESERVE: Welcome back. We're ON THE STORY, talking about homeland security with new concerns that summer, with high-profile public events, could mean new terrorist attacks.

Welcome back. We're ON THE STORY. And welcome to my colleague, Octavia Nasr, CNN's senior editor for Arab affairs, who is joining us now from Atlanta.

OCTAVIA NASR, CNN SR. EDITOR FOR ARAB AFFAIRS: And Jeanne, I do have a question for you.

With all that we're hearing about, around the world, violence that keeps escalating, what are the plans for the Fourth of July? Are we going to have a happy Fourth?

MESERVE: No predicting on whether it will be happy or not. But I can tell you that a bulletin went out last night from the Department of Homeland Security to state and local homeland security advisers, also to the private sector, warning them to take appropriate precautions, particularly around large gatherings. They said, once again, we do see intelligence that indicates that al Qaeda is preparing and -- preparing and planning and perhaps ready to attack in this country. They emphasize, as they have before. However, we have no specific intelligence as to when, where, or how any particular attack might take place.

This was a very long bulletin, several pages at length. It was described as more robust than the bulletin they put out last year on the Fourth of July and instructed locals to take a look at critical infrastructure, in particular. Everything from nuclear power plants, to railways, to subways, to be on the lookout for suicide bombings, to be on the lookout for pre-operational sorts of surveillance. So very broad, very encompassing.

HAYS: Jeanne, is there any sense -- and of course, there's going to be so many big events.

MESERVE: Yes.

HAYS: You know, and we're going to have the Republican convention New York, the Democratic convention in Boston. You name it, there's all kinds of things.

Is there any sense, though, that there's more worry or that the intelligence is more robust because of the escalation of violence in Iraq, the insurgency there? Is there a sense that the terrorists are heating up somehow?

MESERVE: Well, there's been a sense that the terrorists are heating up for some time, because just simply the intelligence that they've been picking up and that the level of information coming in has remained fairly high. But they just don't have anything specific on this.

Of course, the handover is a matter of concern. It's one of the things that comes into play here. But separate and apart from that, it's just that you have so many of these very high-profile events, several of them designated as national special security events, where you're going to have large gatherings of people, a lot of prominent people present.

They're very nervous about the whole sequence. It started with World War II memorial. It will go right through the inauguration.

BASH: I want to ask you about airport security. I remember when the homeland security bill was in congress. There was a huge debate about whether or not the people who check -- the TSA, the people who check our bags and so forth, the security at the airport, should be public or should be private. Because many argued the private sector would do a better job.

You went to San Francisco where there is a private company that's doing it. What's answer?

MESERVE: In the interest of honesty, I didn't actually go to San Francisco. But we did take a look at what was happening in San Francisco. That was one of five airports where they went ahead with private screeners, when all the other airports were federalized. San Francisco has been happy with what's happened there.

And by the way, if you're a traveler there, you'd never know that they weren't federal screeners. They wear that TSA patch on their -- on their shoulder. They're under TSA supervisions, but they are the employees of a private contractor.

San Francisco's very happy. They want to stay with the private contractors. There have been studies that have compared the two and said really they're about the same. In the words of the Department of Homeland Security inspector general, that means equally poorly.

BASH: OK.

(CROSSTALK)

MESERVE: But what happened this week is that airports are now being given guidance. If you want to opt out of the federal system, you can and here's how you do it. It's going to take a while for it to happen. It's unclear how many airports will actually carry through and make that move. But they have the option coming up they'll be able to apply this fall.

WALLACE: Jeanne, we did see, though, of course, in Arizona, a very interesting story about these unmanned aerial vehicles to patrol the border.

Is this something that will work, and there's a sense of privacy concerns here, almost like big brother is watching from the sky.

MESERVE: Right. This is just a test. They're testing of two these UAVs down on the border with Mexico right now.

Of course, we know about the technology. UAVs have been for a long time by the military. There's a fair degree of confidence about their reliability. But they don't know how they can apply to the homeland security mission. So they've sent them up with special cameras and infrared embedded on them, surveying the border. They want to see how quickly that information gets back to the ground, how quickly it's processed, if indeed it does bring efficiencies to the system.

There are concerns about it when it come to privacy. Heck, these things are up in the air. They can zoom in and see things very small. You know, are they really going to be looking for illegal immigrants or hey, how about the pretty woman in her swimming pool?

(CROSSTALK)

MESERVE: Well, that is a question. And that's what they're looking at now. I mean, is it that they'll go up and a UAV will detect some illegal activity on the border and be able to direct forces in, or is there a better way to do this, with the sensors on the ground and people on the ground, do it?

HAYS: Quickly ask you about this general question about security, all these events. When you talk to colleagues -- you travel so much -- in CNN, outside CNN, how do journalists feel you talk to about covering something like the convention, something where they feel it could really be a target?

MESERVE: You know, on any number of stories, I'm asked by people, are we safe to be here? It started actually with the Washington sniper. I remember one of my colleagues and saying, are we safe to be here? I said, Oh, yeah, here we are outside police headquarters, we're fine. In fact, we later found out that the police were terrified that somebody was going to be hit there and they had snipers on the rooftop.

So, you know, there's a reason to be concerned whenever we cover these things. There really is.

But I want to just return to the effectiveness issue of the drones, for just a moment if I could. A lot of people are saying technology is never going to solve this problem. Whether it's UAVs, or something on the ground, there simply aren't enough people working on the borders of this country.

And they say the policies aren't yet the right ones. We aren't doing enough to discourage people from coming over or making life better on the other side of the border.

BASH: Well, speaking of policies, we're going to go from homeland security to the world stage, and President Bush, again hoping U.S. allies will offer new help for the reconstruction of Iraq. I'm back on that story after this.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: Dana Bash is a CNN White House correspondent. Previously, she was a Capitol Hill producer for CNN. The National Press Foundation gave her its Dirksen Award in 2002 for distinguished reporting on Congress. She graduated cum laude from George Washington University.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) (CHANTING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: Demonstrators in Turkey this week, warming up for the president's arrival later today, a sign of what he has to overcome, perhaps, to convince world leaders to take a more active role in Iraq.

Welcome back. We're ON THE STORY.

HAYS: But Dana, he seems to feel that we're on the right track, that he -- didn't he say that the bitter differences have been put behind us?

BASH: That was what he said this morning. He had a press conference in Ireland. And certainly, that's the theme here.

This is part two in George W. Bush's world leaders mend-fending tour. He started out earlier this month, he was in Georgia, the G-8 summit. And that's the whole goal, is to say, Look, we had our differences in Iraq, we're moving on. And primarily, what's he trying to do on this trip is to get approval, at least rhetorical approval, political support, for helping out in Iraq, and specifically getting NATO to agree to train the Iraqi security forces. We heard from Jane, that's obviously the big issue there.

When he was just in Ireland this morning, he got a letter of support from the European Union. That's something that they hope certainly will help. And they do think that they're going to get some sort of blessing from NATO. But the big question is, what does it mean? Where are they going to train the troops? How many countries from NATO are going to help train the troops?

It's a big, open question, and it's lot more modest than what they were hoping to get just a little while ago.

NASR: Dana, when you read the world press on this issue, it seems like they see Mr. Bush as someone who is not genuine in this offer, that this is only because this is an election year and he hopes to be re-elected. So he wants it to look like he has the international support in Iraq, in order to counterattack Kerry's claim that the U.S. is in this alone.

How's this seen from the White House? Do they have any answer to this?

BASH: Well, certainly, the whole idea of going out and trying to get the world leaders' support is something that they do hope will help against John Kerry, who says constantly that his "go-alone strategy" got us into this mess.

But what's interesting is what the president is doing now. He's not saying, "This is not for me. This is not for the United States. This is for the Iraqi people." And he's bringing with him a letter, saying this is a request from the new Iraqi prime minister, saying to the European leaders, how can you say no to a man who was essentially the democratic leader in Iraq? You go ahead. You know, say no to him. It's -- they hope it will make it harder for the Europeans to bulk at what the United States is trying to do.

But what's interesting -- you mentioned European and other support. I just want to show you a new poll that we got this week about the support in America for the president. Let's take a look at this poll. I believe we have it. It shows that 54 percent of Americans now think that going to war in Iraq was a mistake. And that's -- you see that up from just 41 percent...

HAYS: Pretty dramatic.

BASH: ...at the beginning of the month.

Dramatic, and that is certainly not something that the White House thought would be the case -- what? -- a year and a half, more, after the war in Iraq began. And when you ask the Bush campaign about this how dire this is for the campaign, they say, Look, it's not good. We admit it. But that's part of the problem being an incumbent, part of the problem of being an incumbent with the -- with the war president.

But they still maintain that they don't believe that this is necessarily indicative of John Kerry's support. It just means that there's bad news out there and they don't think that John Kerry doesn't necessarily has the positive support that could help him beat the president on this.

WALLACE: Dana, I was going to specifically ask you about that poll. Because it clearly had to get the attention of White House officials.

Behind the scenes though, how concerned are they that this number in particular could really be crucial in these months ahead? If more Americans are thinking it was a mistake to even go into Iraq in the first place, that has got to be very difficult for his re-election.

BASH: Well, they're concerned because it's -- look, Kelly, it's an unknown. It's an absolute unknown. And what's been interesting to watch is the way that they've been pushing the domestic issues recently. They've been pushing the economy.

If you would have told the Bush campaign that they would be pushing the good economic story six months ago, they would have laughed you out of the room. And that's what they've been doing with ads and so forth. And they've been absolutely dying because all of the economic news has been buried by Iraq.

HAYS: And this poll shows -- still shows people choosing Bush as commander in chief over Kerry, correct?

BASH: Correct. Correct.

MESERVE: I want to change topics just a little bit, and take your back to your days of covering Capitol Hill ...

HAYS: But she likes dirt, remember?

MESERVE: An amazing scene on the Senate floor this week, where we had the vice president using an obscenity talking to a senator.

Your impressions, as someone who knows the protocol and how things are usually done on Capitol Hill.

BASH: Well, this is truly a remarkable story. This is sort of the ultimate water cooler story, isn't it?

But first we should say that this was first reported by our Capitol Hill team, out CNN Capitol Hill team. And essentially what happened was, they were on the Senate floor, but the Senate wasn't in session. So you're not supposed to use obscenity on the Senate floor when the Senate is in session. There really aren't rules for when you're on the Senate and they're not.

They were taking a class photo, and apparently what happened was that Dick Cheney and Senator Patrick Leahy of Vermont saw each other. And Patrick Leahy has been saying things, like many Democrats have, about Dick Cheney and his ties to Halliburton. And they had some word, and Dick Cheney either apparently either said "Blank off" or "Go Blank yourself." And it's something that has certainly caused quite a stir.

And the vice president didn't exactly say what the word he used was, but didn't he deny that he had this exchange with the senator. And we have some tape of him. Let's listen to it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He is the kind of individual who will make those kinds of charges, and then come act as though he's your best friend. And I expressed in no uncertain terms my views of his conduct, and walked away.

NEIL CAVUTO, FOX NEWS HOST: Did you curse at him?

CHENEY: Probably.

CAVUTO: Do you have any regrets?

CHENEY: No. I said it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: He said that he said it and that he thought that other people were quite happy that he said it. Clearly, not somebody who is unhappy about what he did.

And this has caused quite an uproar on the campaign trail. You've seen democrats put out statements immediately, immediately calling the vice president the potty mouth. You heard Kelly Wallace -- we were talk earlier about the fact that John Kerry said, you know, Dick Cheney wants to curse, he's going to something to curse about in November after we win the election. HAYS: Well, he can't criticize. He used the "f" word himself, didn't -- didn't John Kerry use it in an interview with Rolling Stone magazine or something?

WALLACE: Well, he did, and then Andy Card, the White House chief of staff, criticized John Kerry for using the "f" word. So the sort of the blame game is going...

(CROSSTALK)

NASR: All right ladies, leaving the profanity aside and going back to the president, his words and actions are studied closely in the Arab world, and often within different understanding than here in the United States.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN NEGROPONTE, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO IRAQ: As I prepare to go to Iraq as United States ambassador, I do so with a clear mission: to offer support and assistance to the Iraqi people and government, as Iraq reasserts its full sovereignty.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NASR: Newly sworn-in U.S. ambassador to Iraq on Wednesday, said he had a clear mission to support and assist the Iraqi government. Clear to him, but in Iraq and the Arab world, the picture, as seen in television and newspaper reports is something different.

Welcome back. We're ON THE STORY.

BASH: And Octavia, you spend your time watching Arab media. And I'm wondering what the reaction was you saw by the fact the White House this week released hundreds of documents, trying to prove the president's policy towards interrogation of prisoners does not include torture.

Did it fly?

NASR: Believe it or not, this story is a bit passe in Arab media already. They've done the story so much. They have this distrust of the U.S. at this point. You read it in articles, you watch it on television. This is like an unstory sort of at this point. It's just another way to cover the story.

What they're focusing on, really, is the violence in Iraq. This is really concerning if you look at the way they're covering it versus the way we cover it. For example, we have our shows called "Countdown to Handover." There, there's no mention of the handover. It seems like it's countdown to doomsday, sort of, and a lot of focus on the violence and how this relates to the U.S., rather than those documents on the torture.

MESERVE: Clearly, Octavia, there's been a lot of dissatisfaction with the Bush administration in the Arab world. Is much attention being played -- paid to the U.S. election? Is there a belief that a change in administration will bring a change in policy, or not?

NASR: It looks like it, yes. They are focusing much -- they have -- al-Jazeera, for example, has a weekly show looking at just that, the upcoming U.S. elections. They debate it. They look at the candidates -- including Nader, by the way -- how their policies might change things in the Middle East, and especially Iraq and the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.

Much attention on this issue. And I have to tell you -- and I don't think this is a secret any more -- the president, George W. Bush is not a popular man on Arab streets, and certainly not on Arab media. So they're starting to look at the other options to see if Kerry or Nader will make a difference.

WALLACE: Octavia, are you seeing any shift in the Arab media, especially as the Arab world sees not just Americans killed in Iraq, but Iraqis because of actions by the Iraqi insurgent leader, Zarqawi. Is there any sense that people are starting to criticize his actions because Iraqi (AUDIO GAP) themselves?

NASR: Absolutely. Not just criticism. You're hearing voices on Arab media: imams at mosques, experts, terrorism experts, even those who deal with only issues of jihadi groups -- al Qaeda, for example. They're saying this is a big shift for these groups, such as al Qaeda. If Zarqawi is closely allied to al Qaeda and he represents them in Iraq, they're saying this is a major shift in ideology. When they start killing the Iraqis and the innocent Iraqis, and now they're focusing, on Arab media, how these attacks -- and these insurgents are attacking individuals, political leaders, political representatives, and so forth, they're saying this is a major shift, and it's leading to chaos.

Right now, it doesn't seem like these attacks are going anywhere. It's just attacking for the sake of attacking and killing.

HAYS: Octavia, beheadings shocked and disgust people in the United States, people around the world.

Is it different in the Arab world? Do they share our revulsion at these acts?

NASR: They do. A lot of dismay, a lot of shock, as you said. We keep hearing the words, "This is not our culture; this is not our religion," and so forth.

Now you have to understand, you know, when you ask the question, Why do criminals commit the crimes that they do, they do it because they have their own mind-set. They believe -- they live in their own world, they have their own beliefs. So in the Arab media, they're trying to explain that these people also are doing these things, because that's what they believe, not because they represent the culture.

MESERVE: And we're back ON THE STORY right after this. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: The women on CNN and ON THE STORY were in the spotlight this week. What's our story? More after this.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: ON THE STORY was honored this week with a Gracie Allen Award for Outstanding Public Affairs Program. The award is from the Foundation of American Women in Radio and Television.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We leverage the media to educate and empower women, promote quality programming and strengthen our local communities.

ANNOUNCER: ON THE STORY executive producer Lucy Spiegel (ph) accepted the award in New York.

Congratulation to the women of CNN, ON THE STORY every week.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HAYS: Thanks so much to my colleagues and thank you for watching on the ON THE STORY. We'll be back next week, of course.

Still ahead, "PEOPLE IN THE NEWS," focusing this week on Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.

Coming up right now, a check of the top stories.

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