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On the Story
Terrorism worries as the Muslim Holy Month of Ramadan Appoaches; A look at Latest Battles with Insurgents in Iraq
Aired October 09, 2004 - 10:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: The remains of Lori Hacking are being buried today. A private graveside service will be held in Utah. The woman's body was found last week in a Salt Lake City landfill. A funeral service was held earlier. Hacking's husband, Mark, is charged with her murder.
At least 14 people were killed when a tour bus crashed and overturned on Interstate 55 in northeastern Arkansas. Thirty people were aboard the bus. It was taking Chicago area residents to Mississippi for casino gambling.
Overseas, U.N. officials are holding talks with officers and candidates in Afghanistan, trying to see if the nation's first direct presidential election can be salvaged. Reports say every candidate except interim President Hamid Karzai is charging widespread fraud in today's voting. The opposition candidates are demanding a new election.
More carnage in Gaza. Six Palestinians were reported killed so far today in Israeli rocket and missile attacks. Those killed included four members of the militant group Hamas and two Palestinian police officers. Israel has not reported any casualties. Israel says it is rooting out insurgents.
The interim Iraqi government says it has cut a deal with Muqtada al-Sadr. The Shia cleric's militia would turn its medium and heavy weapons in beginning on Monday. In return, al-Sadr, his allies would get amnesty, and he could get involved in politics. Iraqi forces would take control of the Sadr City area.
I'm Erica Hill at CNN world headquarters in Atlanta. Now ON THE STORY.
DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Welcome to CNN's ON THE STORY, where journalists have the inside word on the stories we covered this week. I'm Dana Bash, ON THE STORY of last night's presidential debate and the homestretch in this campaign.
ZAIN VERJEE, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Zain Verjee in Atlanta, ON THE STORY of terrorism worries as the Muslim holy month of Ramadan coincides with (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: And I'm Barbara Starr, ON THE STORY of how the Iraq war has prompted a national debate over the military draft. Also coming up, we'll go to Afghanistan and CNN's Christiane Amanpour for the latest on the presidential vote there.
We'll be ON THE STORY in northern Iraq with Jane Arraf on the latest battles against the insurgents.
And CNN's entertainment correspondent Sibila Vargas talks about how show biz intersects with politics in the homestretch of the campaign.
E-mail us at onthestory@cnn.com.
Now straight to Dana Bash on the debates.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The president didn't find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, so he's really turned this campaign into a weapon of mass deception.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: What is he going to say to those people that show up to the summit? Join me in the wrong war, at the wrong time, at the wrong place, risk your troops in a war you've called a mistake. Nobody is going to follow somebody who doesn't believe we can succeed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: Presidential candidates at last night's debate battling over leadership and the Iraq war. Just part of the 90 minutes of aggressive and heated sparring from Iraq, to the economy, to health care.
STARR: Heated and aggressive. For those of us who watched, I mean, it was riveting. But at the end of it all, what's the real result? Who won? Anybody?
BASH: Well, you know, our InstaPolls and others -- other organizations have the InstaPolls, and they show that it was pretty much a draw. But I tell you, Barbara, what I found that was most interesting really in the week since the last -- the first debate, in going to President Bush's rallies, going to a town hall with the vice president, is talking to the president's supporters, people who are, you know, the tried and true Republicans who were really disappointed and very -- quite vocal about it. Didn't mind going on camera talking about the fact that they thought the president, not just in terms of style -- we heard about the scowls, you know, that he looked like he was a little bit annoyed -- but in terms of substance, that he didn't do enough to hit back at Senator Kerry on his record, that he was too repetitive.
So what the Republicans felt like they really need to do was make sure those people were energized and that they didn't get discouraged. And so far, look, it's only been 12 hours, who knows. But so far, some of the Republican officials that we've talked to really feel like they've done a good job in at least re-energizing those people.
VERJEE: Dana, did the president do a better job in explaining the war in Iraq? There was a feeling that last time, in this first debate with John Kerry, he didn't do a good enough job defending it. Did he do that this time around?
BASH: You know, it was really interesting that you say that, Zain, because that's another thing, you know, that I heard from some Republican supporters, is that he didn't -- he did a very good job, or he did almost too good of a job in talking about what we hear on the stump, that John Kerry is a flip-flopper and John Kerry says wrong war at wrong time, but he's sort of all over the place. But he didn't do enough of defending his war.
Look, it's his war. It was his decision. And didn't explain it well enough.
There was an interesting moment last night in the debate when the president was asked about how other people, other countries feel about him. And he, look -- he said, look, point blank, I did what I thought was right. We all saw the intelligence. Perhaps it was wrong. That's too bad but, he said, a lot of times when you're a leader, and what's important to do when you're a leader of the United States is perhaps do things that are not popular abroad.
And it was interesting, a tactic that he used didn't just talk interest Saddam Hussein. It transitioned into Yasser Arafat, saying that's the reason why he doesn't deal with him, because he considers him a terrorist.
On the other hand, Zain, you had John Kerry still having to defend the flip-flop charge and really trying to use essentially what was his last forum with this kind of massive audience to try to explain that the label that the president puts on him he thinks is unfair. Let's listen to John Kerry.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KERRY: He's trying to attack me. He wants you to believe that I can't be president. And he's trying to make you believe it because he wants you to think I've change my mind.
Well, let me tell you straight up, I've never changed my mind about Iraq. I do believe Saddam Hussein was a threat, I always believed he was a threat.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
STARR: Well, Dana, you know, it's interesting, when you listen to all of this, both men clearly, at various points last night, defending their record. Both of them being on the defensive about their policies and what they want to do. One of the most interesting points, I thought, was when someone from the audience asked President Bush what his three mistakes were. And he seemed to struggle again to answer that. He's been asked that type of question before.
BASH: Yes, he has. And remember, it was one of -- during one of his press conferences that he was asked that question and he couldn't think of one. He couldn't think of a mistake.
So, presumably, he was prepared to talk about this, but not just one mistake, but three mistakes. And it was interesting that he didn't necessarily answer. He didn't tick off three mistakes. But he gave an answer broadly about the Iraq war. And let's listen to that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: In a war, there's a lot of -- there's a lot of tactical decisions that historians will look back and say, "You shouldn't have done that. You shouldn't have made that decision." And I'll take responsibility for that. I'm human. But on the big questions about whether or not we should have gone into Afghanistan, the big question about whether we should have removed somebody in Iraq, I'll stand by those decisions, because I think they're right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VERJEE: Dana, as I was watching the debate last night, I was thinking, you know, what is it -- if I was one of those people in the audience, what is it that I would look for from President Bush. And what would make him connect with me?
And I think one of the things is humor. And I'm wondering how you thought the president used humor to connect with people, whether it worked, whether they said, "Hey, we can laugh with this guy. Maybe we can have a beer and a barbecue with him. He's someone we can identify with."
BASH: And that's exactly what -- what the president is trying to do, it's what his aides think really is his biggest asset, that he's sort of this regular guy and that he can connect with people. And it's something that, when you travel around with the president and watch him at his town hall debates -- now, granted, when he does his own town halls, they're with supporters who -- who ask him softballs, essentially. But this is something that the president tried to do almost - you talked about humor.
It seemed as though it was in an answer to last week, where he certainly did not look like he was having a good time. And it was far from -- his face showed far from humor. But it is certainly what his aides hope is going to help him connect and certainly rebound from what happened last week, when he certainly did not look very happy at all.
STARR: But, you know, as you say, it's only been a few hours. Most of the reporting seems to indicate -- the initial polling -- it was a draw. But does that mean good things for either candidate? I mean, did President Bush have to do more than make it a draw? Did Kerry -- Senator Kerry have to do more than make it a draw? What does it mean for next week, for the final debate?
BASH: Well, that's -- that's a very interesting question because, you know, it will be interesting to see whether the -- the polling that shows a draw on this debate translates into the horse race, because, of course, last week, you saw the polling after that debate that showed Kerry overwhelmingly won. And then you saw the race tighten to a neck-and-neck race.
It's going to be interesting to see what happens this week. But essentially, what that means is that they're both, they think, both aides say, on equal footing. And that what they need to do is really focus on next week's debate, which is going to be domestic issues. And you're going to hear a lot more from President Bush, trying to hit Senator Kerry on his record.
You heard it last night. You're going to hear a lot more detail, we're told, next week, when they talk about domestic issues.
STARR: Well, domestic issues next week. But a centerpiece of President Bush's international policy is playing out in Afghanistan right now, today.
That country voting for the first time to elect a president. Our Christiane Amanpour is there. And we'll be back ON THE STORY with her in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HAMID KARZAI, INTERIM AFGHANISTAN PRESIDENT: The Afghan people see this as their chance to build a better future, to take this country forward. Threats are there. Intimidations are there. Some warlords are there. The tourists will attack us, but that will not stop the Afghan people from voting.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And it indeed did not -- it did not deter the Afghan people. The threat of violence was there, but people turned out in the thousands. But what was an issue was irregularities that surfaced very early in today's elections. And already opposition candidates are calling foul, calling fraud, and asking for it to be postponed.
BASH: So Christiane, do you think that that is actually going to happen? Is there a chance that this will be postponed or at least somehow redone at all?
AMANPOUR: It doesn't seem so. The U.N., which has been organizing this, came out and said that, no, the voting will proceed. But they had been in crisis talks with the opposition candidates, and they do say they'll have to address the concerns. And the main concern was that the ink that was designed to be marked on every thumb in order to prevent multiple voting essentially was not indelible. It washed off. It was cheap ink. It didn't work probably.
And already, one of the human rights watch observers here has said basically it seems that this election was rushed and that it was sort of done on the cheap. There wasn't enough money, there wasn't enough personnel. There were no international observers to speak of, only a couple of hundred in country for 21,000 polling areas.
And so this has caused inevitable problems. But that didn't dampen the enthusiasm of the voters.
STARR: Well, Christiane, that's what really has struck me. Looking at the pictures this morning out of Afghanistan, people lining up all over the country. These lines of women in birka, lining up to exercise their right to vote now. It's got to be a stunning cultural and political development for this country, which has seen so much tragedy.
AMANPOUR: Well, there is no doubt about it. Look, these people have never voted in their lives in any kind of meaningful election since this country got its independence from Britain at the turn of the century.
So this means a huge amount of them. Women were kept as slaves, basically, housebound, no public activity allowed, no public voice. And now they can vote. And there's even a woman running for president. She's not going to win, but it makes a big deal and a big change to these people's lives, that they do have that right.
And all around the countryside where we went, and, of course, here in Kabul, everybody, man and woman alike, said that they wanted to vote. Why? Because they wanted peace.
Sipping tea, we were told yesterday, is better than fighting. Peace is better than war. And that's what they were voting for.
VERJEE: People clearly enthusiastic to vote, as you point out, Christiane. But was there a sense at all that they felt pressured to vote either one way or another by warlords or by tribal loyalties or affiliations?
AMANPOUR: Well, there was a sense of that. And Human Rights Watch itself has come out with a report that says particularly in places where there are resurgent Taliban activities in the south of this country, and particularly the warlords, who are so strong, were intimidating them during the voter registration process. And there have been isolated reports about that going on at the voting booth today.
But the people we saw, and most of the people we talked to, they knew that theirs was a secret ballot. And they went in and they put it in that ballot box, and they marked it, for the most part, secretly. As I say, there is some reporting of election observers. These are political agents from various candidates and parties who were also there, intimidating some of the voters and causing them to vote how they would like them to. But on the whole, it seems that the people were able -- were able to vote.
But what's happened is, those very people for whom the Afghan people were voting against have now banded together to call fraud and to issue threats, saying that Karzai, if he is deemed the winner, will not be a legitimate ruler. And that, in the word of one warlord, saying, "Who will allow him to govern? If we don't obey him, how will he govern?" So threats coming from these very people who have caused so much trouble in Afghanistan over the last decades.
BASH: Christiane, obviously, we're in the midst of a presidential campaign here. And that's exactly what you see. You see the candidates campaigning. Hamid Karzai could not do that, correct, because of security issues?
AMANPOUR: Yes, he didn't campaign as much as one would expect. In fact, nobody really did.
Karzai, of course, had the advantage. He is most heavily and definitely favored by the United States.
The U.S. guards him heavily. They ferry him around in U.S. helicopters. A lot of U.S. reconstruction money was pumped in the year before the election, which did bolster his prestige.
But beyond that, Karzai is a figure that really does command sort of moral respect in this country. He's seen as a person who is not tainted by blood, not tainted by the destruction of this country, somebody who himself was in the resistance. So he does have a certain moral standing here.
And, of course, this election is vital for the United States. I mean, with the mess that's in Iraq and with the -- who knows what the elections there are going to turn out like. This election is extremely important.
STARR: Well, just absolutely fascinating developments today, election day in Afghanistan. Thank you, Christiane. Now, tell us what you're going to be looking for ON THE STORY in the coming days.
AMANPOUR: Well, you know, we thought that this -- today was going to go off without as much of a dispute, as it has done. And already, we're being told by some of observers that this is like the hanging chad situation in Florida in 2000.
This non-indelible ink thing could spiral out of control. And what we're going to look for is what these opposition candidates plan to do. Because if they decide to not take the results of this vote, and if they decide to go back to their old tactics, this could spell disaster for this country. And so that is what we're going to be looking for very closely. STARR: Well, from Afghanistan to Iraq, the latest on the military challenges for U.S. forces and the fresh debate this week about the draft. I'm back ON THE STORY after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: It is absolutely false that anyone in this administration is considering reinstating the draft.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KERRY: We've got a back-door draft taking place in America today. People with stop-loss programs, where they're told you can't get out of the military.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
STARR: Two voices in the continuing debate here in Washington over the draft. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Democratic Congressman Charles Rangel of New York, in a maneuver drenched in election year politicking, all of those people talking about it. A measure by Congressman Rangel to bring back the draft bill was defeated overwhelmingly in the House of Representatives Tuesday.
Welcome back. We're ON THE STORY.
VERJEE: Barbara, Paul Bremer, the former administrator in Iraq, causing a real stir with some of his comments, saying there were just too few troops in Iraq. Tell us more about what he said and what's been the fallout.
STARR: Well, that was the beginning of the week here in Washington, and the corridors of the Pentagon, all over town. Paul Bremer, the man who ran the occupation, the civilian occupation of Iraq, saying that there weren't enough troops. And that he has now mentioned this twice that we know of in public speeches.
He says he brought it up with the Pentagon. And, indeed, we confirmed with top officials, Bremer talk about the need for more troops.
Bremer says he'd wished he'd brought it up more. He says that he was really talking about Iraqi security forces, and that he fully supports the president. But a little crack in the armor that everything's just fine. Paul Bremer, a very respected international diplomat, saying they should have had more soldiers.
BASH: But, you know, it wasn't just Bremer. It was -- it seemed like it was sort of the perfect storm politically for the president this week on Iraq.
You had Bremer. You had, of course, the WMD report coming out that said, oops, for sure we know what we sort of suspected all along, that there isn't weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. And then you had Donald Rumsfeld saying -- suggesting that there wasn't the link between Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda that others in the administration had suggested was there. Not exactly what the president needed this week, but go into, particularly, the WMD report.
STARR: Well, it was -- what was fascinating is what was not said at the Pentagon. It was like, yeah, you know. And then they just push it aside, of course.
Yes, we all knew that. That's old news. What we're talking -- the Pentagon is another part of the Bush administration that very coldly, calmly remains relentlessly on message. And the Pentagon message is that the troops are doing an outstanding job, which, by all accounts, they are.
Everyone supports them. That reconstruction is under way, Iraqi security forces are being trained, and the plan is to move forward.
As one Pentagon official I spoke to this week said to me, we can -- he says, "We can't show any vulnerability. We can't be wrong. We have to keep going and say we're right."
And that is the message.
BASH: Boy, that's candor.
STARR: That is the message. And that -- but that --- what happens is, of course, they do get these little blips, the Paul Bremers of the world, who suddenly pop up and say things that don't quite fit.
VERJEE: Barbara, there was a significant firefight in Baghdad just around the area where journalists and contractors stay at the Palestine hotel, the Sheraton hotel in Baghdad. How significant was that firefight, or was it just an attempt by insurgents to grab the headlines because they know that the journalists are there and that they will make news?
STARR: Well, you know, they do -- that is their objective, that's what they're doing, this firefight. Our own Brent Sadler trying to do a live shot at night, as suddenly katusha (ph) rockets come flying by his head.
He and the cameraman hitting the deck. Then the tracer fire erupting, the machinegun fire. Riveting picture of what life is really like in Baghdad for ordinary Iraqis, for journalists.
But this was the face of the insurgency, the shoot-and-scoot tactics in the middle of the night, grabbing headlines, forcing the world's attention on to their activities. And by all accounts, they are successful at grabbing those headlines. It's going to be the Iraqi security forces that are going to take the country back, however. That is the plan.
BASH: And the hope. VERJEE: OK. Barbara, we're going to get the latest from Jane Arraf in northern Iraq. That's straight ahead.
And also coming up, I'm ON THE STORY of terrorism fears as the Muslim holy month of Ramadan coincides with the U.S. election.
And entertainment correspondent Sibila Vargas is on the story of how politics spills over into music.
That's all coming up. Plus, a check on what's making news right now.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HILL: I'm Erica Hill at the CNN Center in Atlanta.
U.N. officials in Afghanistan have rejected calls to void today's historic election, but said complaints of fraud will be investigated. Opposition candidates began crying foul within the hours after the polls opened. Polling for a new vote, because of flawed ink meant to make sure people voted only once. Turnout was heavy at many polling stations. No hostilities were reported.
In Australia, a key test of the Bush administration's policy in Iraq. Early results show the conservative government of Prime Minister John Howard has retained its majority in parliament, putting him on target for an historic fourth term. Mr. Howard has been a strong supporter of the Iraq war. His reelection means some 900 Australian troops will stay in Iraq for the foreseeable future.
In Iraq, meantime, a deal announced today to disarm the militia of Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr. It's hoped the agreement will end weeks of fighting in a volatile section of Baghdad. Terms call for Sadr's Mehdi Army to surrender medium and heavy weapons by Monday.
And in Arkansas, more than a dozen fatalities early this morning when a charter bus crashed on Interstate 55. It was carrying 30 people from Chicago on a gambling junket to a casino in Mississippi. The bus apparently took an exit ramp too fast and flipped over.
Those are the latest headlines at this hour. I'm Erica Hill in Atlanta. We now return to ON THE STORY.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our intent is to reconstruct the city. That's what we're here to do, to assist the government to do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JANE ARRAF, CNN BAGHDAD BUREAU CHIEF: That was Colonel Randy Dragon (ph) from the 1st Infantry Division in Samarra. A reoccurring theme, battle for these cities and then the rebuilding.
I'm Jane Arraf in Samarra. Welcome back to ON THE STORY.
STARR: Jane, when we talked to you last week in Samarra, the fighting was -- was heavy. U.S. and coalition forces were still in the process of retaking the city. You're still there. What's the latest?
ARRAF: Barbara, it's calmed down considerably, to the point where there are U.S. soldiers walking around in the streets without being shot at routinely. Now, there are still a few roadside bombs around, there are still explosions, still some attacks. But they believe that they've gotten most of the insurgency.
They also believe that they'll probably come back. So this may be a lull. But it's a lot quieter. There are a lot more people out there venturing out, looking at their damaged shops and trying to figure out what's going on.
VERJEE: Jane, Samarra is being looked at as a success story, as a model for how to take over other Iraqi towns or cities that are still providing difficulties to both the U.S. there and the Iraqi administration. But the real question here is, if U.S. troops pull out of Samarra, can Iraqi troops hold it?
ARRAF: That is the question. You're absolutely right, Zain. And they're trying desperately here.
Now, this, I think, is an illustration of how complicated it gets, this city. It's getting dark now, but you can probably see a little bit behind me.
It's an ancient city with a sacred mosque, extremely important. And it was an irritant to Saddam Hussein for virtually decades. There are tribes upon tribes here, there are many different allegiances.
Right now, what they're grappling with is a police force that just did not work. They're bringing in a new police force, they're bringing in Iraqi National Guard and layers of other security forces, and trying to reestablish it from the ground up. You see them in the streets, which is an amazing thing.
And the U.S. officials say that it is a very good start. Just the fact that they're here.
BASH: Well, Jane, you talk about the security forces, Iraqi security force. But what about any kind of local Iraqi government trying to take hold and starting to take hold? What's the status of that?
ARRAF: That, again, I think, is the complication that the U.S. is going to face in city after city. People here are not used to having a local government.
We've been able to walk around the streets with the governor of the region and other officials, and it has been really quite heartening that people feel free to come out and complain to him. And complain they do. Now, they complain mostly about the Americans, but one thing the U.S. military is doing, which has proved effective, according to what we saw today on our rounds with them, is they take, essentially, literally, plastic bags full of cash, U.S. dollars, they go from shop to shop, shops that have been damaged, homes that have bullets in them, and they peel off these dollar bills, $10s and $20s and $100s at a time. And say, "We're really sorry, but aren't you glad the terrorists are gone? And we're sorry for the trouble."
And that is working very slowly. But that's an important part of what's happening here.
STARR: Jane, you know, as I say, we know that you've been there a while. Take us a little bit behind the scenes now.
You are living, we know, with U.S. troops in their encampment there. What's it like? What are the living conditions like? You know, what's going on day to day for the troops that you're with?
ARRAF: Well, Barbara, some of this would probably be the too much information. But let me just give you a little glimpse.
This is Patrol Base Razor. It's not a full-fledged forward operating base. So it's a place that soldiers come, and they don't spend a lot of time.
So consequently, I'm told it's the second worst Army base in Iraq. It's pretty dirty, and there are very minimal toilet facilities. There is no running water.
If you want to wash your hair, you use bottled water. And it's great that we have bottled water, although sometimes it's entirely frozen, so you can't really do that.
But I have to tell you the depths to which I have sunk. We went to hang out with the New York National Guard. Amazing people. There are carpenters and plumbers and all sorts of people, very resourceful.
And they don't have a lot of hair. But I asked them if anyone had shampoo. And lo and behold, someone did. lavender Herbal Essence Shampoo.
So I got to shampoo my hair for the first time in a few days. So that's kind of what it's like.
VERJEE: And it looks good, Jane.
Jane, on another note, the -- even though the U.S. is saying, look, this operation in Samarra has been successful, I know that you reported on Iraqi civilian casualties in Samarra. Tell us a little bit about that, the numbers, what happened, what people on the ground are saying about that.
ARRAF: That is a really interesting one. And we felt really lucky to be able to be here, because so often, we get press releases and we try to filter through what we've heard from officials, Iraqi officials, hospital officials with one number, U.S. officials with another number. And there's usually a lot of gap in between.
In this case, we were able to go to the main Samarra hospital. We actually went there with the U.S. military and were able to talk to hospital officials, were able to talk to relatives who came to the hospital, carrying white flags so they wouldn't be shot, to pick up the bodies of their relatives.
And in piecing it together, from the hospital records, and from what these relatives were saying, it appears that somewhere between at least 30 and 50 civilians were killed and brought to this one particular hospital. U.S. military figures are lower. They say those are the figures supplied to them.
But one of the things that we found and I think happens a lot is the hospital officials would not talk to the U.S. military. They were so angry, they would not show them their records. They would not really give them accurate details.
That is the extent of civilian casualties that we found. And put in perspective, in the big sense, much smaller casualties for the size and intensity of this operation than in other cities. But you can -- I'm sure you can imagine the absolute tragedy of each and every one of those -- each of these families who had their cars with women and children fired on, each of these civilians shot by mistake. It's a horrible thing, and I think we can't turn away from the fact that it is horrible.
VERJEE: Jane, as you continue to report from Samarra, give us a sense of what you're looking to cover in the next days.
ARRAF: There's an awful lot going on here. I guess it's the struggle that we see in other cities between, are they getting control of the insurgents, did they, indeed, capture and kill them, or do they have just a bunch of people who may not necessarily be the main source of the problem? And will this city get back on its feet in terms of the money getting out there.
And they have to pour a ton of money into here. There's a ton of money destined for Iraq that just has not been spent.
So we're going to be looking at that. We're going to be moving on to other cities in the Sunni Triangle. This is a fascinating place, a volatile place, and increasingly important as Iraqi elections come up in January.
VERJEE: Thanks, Jane. Good to talk to you.
Fresh terrorism fears not only in Iraq, as the Muslim holy month of Ramadan begins next week and coincides with the U.S. elections. We're back on that story after this.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MJ GOHEL, TERROR EXPERT: It's a crime which can be exploited by radical clerics to motivate individuals into perhaps taking action on the basis that they're somehow serving their religion.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VERJEE: Terror expert MJ Gohel about how coming days may offer a new opportunity for radical Muslim clerics to motivate and recruit terrorists. The Muslim holy month of Ramadan begins next week. And in the past, there's been an increase in terrorism.
Welcome back. We're ON THE STORY.
BASH: Zain, the first question is why? Why -- what is it about Ramadan that makes it a time where there is this fear of terrorism?
VERJEE: There's a feeling among terrorism experts that it's a window of opportunity. And any window of opportunity is something that terrorists are going to exploit.
Counter-terrorism officials have said, look, the fact that Ramadan coincides with the U.S. election, and the fact that there is definitive intelligence to indicate that al Qaeda is intent on either striking the U.S. homeland or U.S. interests abroad, is reason to worry. They say that it allows radical clerics who would preach in sermons -- and you'd have a lot more people going to mosques during Ramadan -- to incite people, to -- and it's also a time where there is heightened anger in the Arab and Muslim world over the war in Iraq, over the Israeli-Palestinian issues.
The images you see on television of children being pulled out of the rubble in Iraq, children being pulled out of the rubble in Gaza, is something that plays on Arab and Muslim sentiments and allows an opportunity for radical clerics to exploit. It's an important, though, to make the point that these are just radical clerics. The majority of Muslims in the world, one billion people, do not subscribe to that sort of extremist ideology.
STARR: Well, as you say, Zain, the majority of people who are of the Muslim faith, of course, every -- every reason to believe they, of course, will observe their holiday or their holy days in the most devout manner. But again, there have been historic examples where there has been trouble from the radical elements on the fringe.
And go back over some of that. Remind people what's happened in the past.
VERJEE: Exactly. Ramadan has provided that psychological symbolic impetus for attacks.
If you look at 2003, this is what you see during the month of Ramadan. The International Red Cross was attacked in Baghdad. A U.S. military helicopter was shot down in central Iraq. You had a housing compound in Riyadh that was also attacked. Italian troops, the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) were attacked in Nasiriyah, as well as two synagogues being attacked in Istanbul. So there is a history of attacks during the course of Ramadan. And those attacks have spiked. And that's the fear that a lot of terrorism experts and U.S. counter-terrorism officials are looking at this and saying, you know, we're really worried about this, particularly because it falls around the U.S. election.
The other point they add is that Ramadan also allows these radical clerics and extremists an opportunity to recruit. And that is a major concern that's been put out there. And they say, if there is more recruitment, you're going to see an influx of operatives and operational increase in Iraq and elsewhere. But it's a moment where there is an opportunity to recruit, and that's the other problem.
BASH: And what's it's interesting, also, is that there is a historical reason why these clerics are able to recruit, perhaps, these extremists. Tell us a little bit about that.
VERJEE: Yes, Dana. It's really interesting.
There is a date during Ramadan that the west doesn't really know about. It is called the Battle of Badr, and it's anniversary that falls on the 17th day into Ramadan. And that's a significant battle in the calendar of most Muslims, because this is a battle where the prophet, Mohammed, was the underdog.
In 624, he came with something like 300 men, he fought 1,000 men. He was fighting for Islam, and he won.
So while a lot of Muslims will mark this on their calendar -- and they celebrate it and they mark it peacefully -- there is that terrorist, that extremist element that will look at it and exploit it and say, well, you know, Mohammed, during the Battle of Badr, was the underdog, he fought for Islam, he won. And we're the underdogs on the war in terror. And it's not really a war on terror, it's a war in Islam -- or on Islam.
And there is a feeling that that date could also be exploited. And that date falls around the U.S. election.
BASH: Zain, thank you very much. Very interesting.
And we're going to go from some of the dangers that may lie ahead, to some of the possible diversions. CNN entertainment correspondent Sibila Vargas is on that story straight ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRUCE SPRINSTEEN, MUSICIAN: We're here tonight to fight for a government that is open, rational, forward-looking and humane. And we plan to rock the joint while doing so.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SIBILA VARGAS, CNN ENTERTAINMENT CORRESPONDENT: Superstar Bruce Springsteen is diving into politics. He and other prominent musicians are touring under the Vote for a Change banner.
I'm Sibila Vargas. Welcome back. We're ON THE STORY.
BASH: Sibila, tell us a little bit more about this Vote for a Change concert tour.
VARGAS: Well, it was organized by the MoveOn.org organization, which is, of course, a Democratic political party. And there's going to be a lot of artists there.
I mean, there actually were. There was Bonnie Raitt, you've got Bruce Springsteen, R.E.M., Dixie Chicks. A little bit for everyone.
And what they've done is that they've gone into the battleground states, 11 states and 33 cities, in a very short period of time, two weeks. And the big grand finale is going to be on Monday. And that's when all of the artists are going to get together, over 13 artists, if you can just imagine, the Dixie Chicks and all of these great artists getting ready together to kick it off at the MCI Center in Washington, D.C.
STARR: And politics and the entertainment industry really firmly linked this year in a number of areas. I know you were telling us before about some new developments with Michael Moore and his film, "Fahrenheit 9/11."
VARGAS: Yes. As you know, Michael Moore, I mean, the documentary did unbelievable at the box office. It really broke records for a documentary.
And then -- and now it's doing an unbelievably phenomenal on the home video sales. In the first day, it had two million dollars -- I'm sorry, two million copies sold. So that's pretty extraordinary.
And now, Michael Moore is trying to get his documentary on television before the actual election, a day before the election. And he's very close to inking a deal with Pay Per View right now.
That's according to "Variety." They're saying this process is imminent. And what's going to happen is that we'll be able to see Fahrenheit -- viewers will be able to see "Fahrenheit 9/11," and also a three-hour special that has celebrities actually talking about the movie, talking about Michael Moore, and their stance on the elections.
VERJEE: Sibila, I haven't seen a movie in ages. There are a number of -- there are a number of movies coming out.
"Shall we Dance," I understand, with Richard Gere and Jennifer Lopez. Tell us a little bit about the movie and -- I mean, you haven't seen Jennifer Lopez since "Gigli."
VARGAS: Oh, you saw the movie? You were actually one of the few that actually saw it?
VERJEE: I was the only one here who did. It was a bad day. VARGAS: Well, you know what? She's got a lot to prove. Poor Jennifer Lopez. She's been through the wringer, you know, with the Bennifer flack.
But, you know, she's back again in this movie. It's a very charming movie, it's an adaptation from a Japanese version.
It's about a married man looking for spice in life. And he actually goes to a dance instructor, which is played by Jennifer Lopez. And if you want to get spice, you don't get any spicier than that.
But I got a chance to speak to Jennifer Lopez in a New York junket the other day. And, you know, she's -- she's got a lot to prove. This is her first foray again after "Gigli." And, you know, all eyes are on her right now.
And I got a little time to talk to her about her personal life. And she's doing OK -- she's doing wonderfully.
She's a newlywed. But she doesn't want to talk about her personal life anymore.
I think what viewers are going to start seeing is a more demure, a more calculated Jennifer Lopez. She really wants to take life a little bit easier and really stop talking about her personal life because, as you know, it's really come back to bite her in the butt.
So she really wants to take another -- just another approach to life. And she actually is going to be coming out with a lot of movies, "An Unfinished Life" with Robert Redford, and also Jane Fonda, who wording with her on "Monster-in-Law."
And Jane Fonda gave her pretty good words of advice. She said, "Jennifer, you're a good actress. From now on, choose your roles and choose them wisely." So I think she's going to actually take that advice.
BASH: So let me just get this straight. While some of us are going and traveling around, going from buses to rallies to hotels, not that being on the campaign trail is not fun, but you're going and you're interviewing stars like Jennifer Lopez and Jude Law? Is that right?
VARGAS: That's true. I mean, you know, it's a tough job. But somebody's got to do it.
BASH: Tell us about his new movie coming out.
VARGAS: I've said that before.
BASH: He's got a new movie coming out as well, correct?
VARGAS: He does. He's going to be playing "Alfie." And I don't -- I don't know, some of you may remember the 1966 version of "Alfie" starring Michael Caine. And who could ever forget his performance? He got a nomination for best -- best actor for that role.
And now, Jude Law has some pretty tough shoes to fill. But according to all reports, and also speaking to Jude Law, Michael Caine really gave his blessings to this movie and really gave his blessings to Jude Law. And he said nobody else could play him and nobody else could play this character.
Of course, "Alfie" is about a womanizer who goes around and just plays with all kinds of women and plays with their minds. And, you know, I think the biggest challenge in this move -- because I got to see it -- is that the character spends so much time actually talking to the camera. He breaks that wall.
And I think that that is some type of an endeavor that, really, I haven't seen in a long time. In fact, I can't even remember the last time I saw an actor kind of doing his scene and then all of a sudden looking to the camera and speaking to us, the audience.
So I think that's the greatest challenge for Paramount. But I think Jude Law did a pretty good job. He's certainly one of the sexiest men in the universe right now. And he's a pretty busy actor, actually. Six movies by the end of the year. So pretty incredible.
STARR: Well, I'm with Zain and Dana on this, Sibila. I want to trade jobs with you. I volunteer to come out there. We thank you.
And we're back ON THE STORY after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BASH: Thanks to my colleagues, and thank you for watching ON THE STORY. We'll be back next week.
Coming up, "PEOPLE IN THE NEWS," focusing this week on Martha Stewart and Howard Stern.
Straight ahead, a check at what's making news right now.
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Aired October 9, 2004 - 10:00 ET
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ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: The remains of Lori Hacking are being buried today. A private graveside service will be held in Utah. The woman's body was found last week in a Salt Lake City landfill. A funeral service was held earlier. Hacking's husband, Mark, is charged with her murder.
At least 14 people were killed when a tour bus crashed and overturned on Interstate 55 in northeastern Arkansas. Thirty people were aboard the bus. It was taking Chicago area residents to Mississippi for casino gambling.
Overseas, U.N. officials are holding talks with officers and candidates in Afghanistan, trying to see if the nation's first direct presidential election can be salvaged. Reports say every candidate except interim President Hamid Karzai is charging widespread fraud in today's voting. The opposition candidates are demanding a new election.
More carnage in Gaza. Six Palestinians were reported killed so far today in Israeli rocket and missile attacks. Those killed included four members of the militant group Hamas and two Palestinian police officers. Israel has not reported any casualties. Israel says it is rooting out insurgents.
The interim Iraqi government says it has cut a deal with Muqtada al-Sadr. The Shia cleric's militia would turn its medium and heavy weapons in beginning on Monday. In return, al-Sadr, his allies would get amnesty, and he could get involved in politics. Iraqi forces would take control of the Sadr City area.
I'm Erica Hill at CNN world headquarters in Atlanta. Now ON THE STORY.
DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Welcome to CNN's ON THE STORY, where journalists have the inside word on the stories we covered this week. I'm Dana Bash, ON THE STORY of last night's presidential debate and the homestretch in this campaign.
ZAIN VERJEE, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Zain Verjee in Atlanta, ON THE STORY of terrorism worries as the Muslim holy month of Ramadan coincides with (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: And I'm Barbara Starr, ON THE STORY of how the Iraq war has prompted a national debate over the military draft. Also coming up, we'll go to Afghanistan and CNN's Christiane Amanpour for the latest on the presidential vote there.
We'll be ON THE STORY in northern Iraq with Jane Arraf on the latest battles against the insurgents.
And CNN's entertainment correspondent Sibila Vargas talks about how show biz intersects with politics in the homestretch of the campaign.
E-mail us at onthestory@cnn.com.
Now straight to Dana Bash on the debates.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The president didn't find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, so he's really turned this campaign into a weapon of mass deception.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: What is he going to say to those people that show up to the summit? Join me in the wrong war, at the wrong time, at the wrong place, risk your troops in a war you've called a mistake. Nobody is going to follow somebody who doesn't believe we can succeed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: Presidential candidates at last night's debate battling over leadership and the Iraq war. Just part of the 90 minutes of aggressive and heated sparring from Iraq, to the economy, to health care.
STARR: Heated and aggressive. For those of us who watched, I mean, it was riveting. But at the end of it all, what's the real result? Who won? Anybody?
BASH: Well, you know, our InstaPolls and others -- other organizations have the InstaPolls, and they show that it was pretty much a draw. But I tell you, Barbara, what I found that was most interesting really in the week since the last -- the first debate, in going to President Bush's rallies, going to a town hall with the vice president, is talking to the president's supporters, people who are, you know, the tried and true Republicans who were really disappointed and very -- quite vocal about it. Didn't mind going on camera talking about the fact that they thought the president, not just in terms of style -- we heard about the scowls, you know, that he looked like he was a little bit annoyed -- but in terms of substance, that he didn't do enough to hit back at Senator Kerry on his record, that he was too repetitive.
So what the Republicans felt like they really need to do was make sure those people were energized and that they didn't get discouraged. And so far, look, it's only been 12 hours, who knows. But so far, some of the Republican officials that we've talked to really feel like they've done a good job in at least re-energizing those people.
VERJEE: Dana, did the president do a better job in explaining the war in Iraq? There was a feeling that last time, in this first debate with John Kerry, he didn't do a good enough job defending it. Did he do that this time around?
BASH: You know, it was really interesting that you say that, Zain, because that's another thing, you know, that I heard from some Republican supporters, is that he didn't -- he did a very good job, or he did almost too good of a job in talking about what we hear on the stump, that John Kerry is a flip-flopper and John Kerry says wrong war at wrong time, but he's sort of all over the place. But he didn't do enough of defending his war.
Look, it's his war. It was his decision. And didn't explain it well enough.
There was an interesting moment last night in the debate when the president was asked about how other people, other countries feel about him. And he, look -- he said, look, point blank, I did what I thought was right. We all saw the intelligence. Perhaps it was wrong. That's too bad but, he said, a lot of times when you're a leader, and what's important to do when you're a leader of the United States is perhaps do things that are not popular abroad.
And it was interesting, a tactic that he used didn't just talk interest Saddam Hussein. It transitioned into Yasser Arafat, saying that's the reason why he doesn't deal with him, because he considers him a terrorist.
On the other hand, Zain, you had John Kerry still having to defend the flip-flop charge and really trying to use essentially what was his last forum with this kind of massive audience to try to explain that the label that the president puts on him he thinks is unfair. Let's listen to John Kerry.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KERRY: He's trying to attack me. He wants you to believe that I can't be president. And he's trying to make you believe it because he wants you to think I've change my mind.
Well, let me tell you straight up, I've never changed my mind about Iraq. I do believe Saddam Hussein was a threat, I always believed he was a threat.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
STARR: Well, Dana, you know, it's interesting, when you listen to all of this, both men clearly, at various points last night, defending their record. Both of them being on the defensive about their policies and what they want to do. One of the most interesting points, I thought, was when someone from the audience asked President Bush what his three mistakes were. And he seemed to struggle again to answer that. He's been asked that type of question before.
BASH: Yes, he has. And remember, it was one of -- during one of his press conferences that he was asked that question and he couldn't think of one. He couldn't think of a mistake.
So, presumably, he was prepared to talk about this, but not just one mistake, but three mistakes. And it was interesting that he didn't necessarily answer. He didn't tick off three mistakes. But he gave an answer broadly about the Iraq war. And let's listen to that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: In a war, there's a lot of -- there's a lot of tactical decisions that historians will look back and say, "You shouldn't have done that. You shouldn't have made that decision." And I'll take responsibility for that. I'm human. But on the big questions about whether or not we should have gone into Afghanistan, the big question about whether we should have removed somebody in Iraq, I'll stand by those decisions, because I think they're right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VERJEE: Dana, as I was watching the debate last night, I was thinking, you know, what is it -- if I was one of those people in the audience, what is it that I would look for from President Bush. And what would make him connect with me?
And I think one of the things is humor. And I'm wondering how you thought the president used humor to connect with people, whether it worked, whether they said, "Hey, we can laugh with this guy. Maybe we can have a beer and a barbecue with him. He's someone we can identify with."
BASH: And that's exactly what -- what the president is trying to do, it's what his aides think really is his biggest asset, that he's sort of this regular guy and that he can connect with people. And it's something that, when you travel around with the president and watch him at his town hall debates -- now, granted, when he does his own town halls, they're with supporters who -- who ask him softballs, essentially. But this is something that the president tried to do almost - you talked about humor.
It seemed as though it was in an answer to last week, where he certainly did not look like he was having a good time. And it was far from -- his face showed far from humor. But it is certainly what his aides hope is going to help him connect and certainly rebound from what happened last week, when he certainly did not look very happy at all.
STARR: But, you know, as you say, it's only been a few hours. Most of the reporting seems to indicate -- the initial polling -- it was a draw. But does that mean good things for either candidate? I mean, did President Bush have to do more than make it a draw? Did Kerry -- Senator Kerry have to do more than make it a draw? What does it mean for next week, for the final debate?
BASH: Well, that's -- that's a very interesting question because, you know, it will be interesting to see whether the -- the polling that shows a draw on this debate translates into the horse race, because, of course, last week, you saw the polling after that debate that showed Kerry overwhelmingly won. And then you saw the race tighten to a neck-and-neck race.
It's going to be interesting to see what happens this week. But essentially, what that means is that they're both, they think, both aides say, on equal footing. And that what they need to do is really focus on next week's debate, which is going to be domestic issues. And you're going to hear a lot more from President Bush, trying to hit Senator Kerry on his record.
You heard it last night. You're going to hear a lot more detail, we're told, next week, when they talk about domestic issues.
STARR: Well, domestic issues next week. But a centerpiece of President Bush's international policy is playing out in Afghanistan right now, today.
That country voting for the first time to elect a president. Our Christiane Amanpour is there. And we'll be back ON THE STORY with her in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HAMID KARZAI, INTERIM AFGHANISTAN PRESIDENT: The Afghan people see this as their chance to build a better future, to take this country forward. Threats are there. Intimidations are there. Some warlords are there. The tourists will attack us, but that will not stop the Afghan people from voting.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And it indeed did not -- it did not deter the Afghan people. The threat of violence was there, but people turned out in the thousands. But what was an issue was irregularities that surfaced very early in today's elections. And already opposition candidates are calling foul, calling fraud, and asking for it to be postponed.
BASH: So Christiane, do you think that that is actually going to happen? Is there a chance that this will be postponed or at least somehow redone at all?
AMANPOUR: It doesn't seem so. The U.N., which has been organizing this, came out and said that, no, the voting will proceed. But they had been in crisis talks with the opposition candidates, and they do say they'll have to address the concerns. And the main concern was that the ink that was designed to be marked on every thumb in order to prevent multiple voting essentially was not indelible. It washed off. It was cheap ink. It didn't work probably.
And already, one of the human rights watch observers here has said basically it seems that this election was rushed and that it was sort of done on the cheap. There wasn't enough money, there wasn't enough personnel. There were no international observers to speak of, only a couple of hundred in country for 21,000 polling areas.
And so this has caused inevitable problems. But that didn't dampen the enthusiasm of the voters.
STARR: Well, Christiane, that's what really has struck me. Looking at the pictures this morning out of Afghanistan, people lining up all over the country. These lines of women in birka, lining up to exercise their right to vote now. It's got to be a stunning cultural and political development for this country, which has seen so much tragedy.
AMANPOUR: Well, there is no doubt about it. Look, these people have never voted in their lives in any kind of meaningful election since this country got its independence from Britain at the turn of the century.
So this means a huge amount of them. Women were kept as slaves, basically, housebound, no public activity allowed, no public voice. And now they can vote. And there's even a woman running for president. She's not going to win, but it makes a big deal and a big change to these people's lives, that they do have that right.
And all around the countryside where we went, and, of course, here in Kabul, everybody, man and woman alike, said that they wanted to vote. Why? Because they wanted peace.
Sipping tea, we were told yesterday, is better than fighting. Peace is better than war. And that's what they were voting for.
VERJEE: People clearly enthusiastic to vote, as you point out, Christiane. But was there a sense at all that they felt pressured to vote either one way or another by warlords or by tribal loyalties or affiliations?
AMANPOUR: Well, there was a sense of that. And Human Rights Watch itself has come out with a report that says particularly in places where there are resurgent Taliban activities in the south of this country, and particularly the warlords, who are so strong, were intimidating them during the voter registration process. And there have been isolated reports about that going on at the voting booth today.
But the people we saw, and most of the people we talked to, they knew that theirs was a secret ballot. And they went in and they put it in that ballot box, and they marked it, for the most part, secretly. As I say, there is some reporting of election observers. These are political agents from various candidates and parties who were also there, intimidating some of the voters and causing them to vote how they would like them to. But on the whole, it seems that the people were able -- were able to vote.
But what's happened is, those very people for whom the Afghan people were voting against have now banded together to call fraud and to issue threats, saying that Karzai, if he is deemed the winner, will not be a legitimate ruler. And that, in the word of one warlord, saying, "Who will allow him to govern? If we don't obey him, how will he govern?" So threats coming from these very people who have caused so much trouble in Afghanistan over the last decades.
BASH: Christiane, obviously, we're in the midst of a presidential campaign here. And that's exactly what you see. You see the candidates campaigning. Hamid Karzai could not do that, correct, because of security issues?
AMANPOUR: Yes, he didn't campaign as much as one would expect. In fact, nobody really did.
Karzai, of course, had the advantage. He is most heavily and definitely favored by the United States.
The U.S. guards him heavily. They ferry him around in U.S. helicopters. A lot of U.S. reconstruction money was pumped in the year before the election, which did bolster his prestige.
But beyond that, Karzai is a figure that really does command sort of moral respect in this country. He's seen as a person who is not tainted by blood, not tainted by the destruction of this country, somebody who himself was in the resistance. So he does have a certain moral standing here.
And, of course, this election is vital for the United States. I mean, with the mess that's in Iraq and with the -- who knows what the elections there are going to turn out like. This election is extremely important.
STARR: Well, just absolutely fascinating developments today, election day in Afghanistan. Thank you, Christiane. Now, tell us what you're going to be looking for ON THE STORY in the coming days.
AMANPOUR: Well, you know, we thought that this -- today was going to go off without as much of a dispute, as it has done. And already, we're being told by some of observers that this is like the hanging chad situation in Florida in 2000.
This non-indelible ink thing could spiral out of control. And what we're going to look for is what these opposition candidates plan to do. Because if they decide to not take the results of this vote, and if they decide to go back to their old tactics, this could spell disaster for this country. And so that is what we're going to be looking for very closely. STARR: Well, from Afghanistan to Iraq, the latest on the military challenges for U.S. forces and the fresh debate this week about the draft. I'm back ON THE STORY after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: It is absolutely false that anyone in this administration is considering reinstating the draft.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KERRY: We've got a back-door draft taking place in America today. People with stop-loss programs, where they're told you can't get out of the military.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
STARR: Two voices in the continuing debate here in Washington over the draft. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Democratic Congressman Charles Rangel of New York, in a maneuver drenched in election year politicking, all of those people talking about it. A measure by Congressman Rangel to bring back the draft bill was defeated overwhelmingly in the House of Representatives Tuesday.
Welcome back. We're ON THE STORY.
VERJEE: Barbara, Paul Bremer, the former administrator in Iraq, causing a real stir with some of his comments, saying there were just too few troops in Iraq. Tell us more about what he said and what's been the fallout.
STARR: Well, that was the beginning of the week here in Washington, and the corridors of the Pentagon, all over town. Paul Bremer, the man who ran the occupation, the civilian occupation of Iraq, saying that there weren't enough troops. And that he has now mentioned this twice that we know of in public speeches.
He says he brought it up with the Pentagon. And, indeed, we confirmed with top officials, Bremer talk about the need for more troops.
Bremer says he'd wished he'd brought it up more. He says that he was really talking about Iraqi security forces, and that he fully supports the president. But a little crack in the armor that everything's just fine. Paul Bremer, a very respected international diplomat, saying they should have had more soldiers.
BASH: But, you know, it wasn't just Bremer. It was -- it seemed like it was sort of the perfect storm politically for the president this week on Iraq.
You had Bremer. You had, of course, the WMD report coming out that said, oops, for sure we know what we sort of suspected all along, that there isn't weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. And then you had Donald Rumsfeld saying -- suggesting that there wasn't the link between Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda that others in the administration had suggested was there. Not exactly what the president needed this week, but go into, particularly, the WMD report.
STARR: Well, it was -- what was fascinating is what was not said at the Pentagon. It was like, yeah, you know. And then they just push it aside, of course.
Yes, we all knew that. That's old news. What we're talking -- the Pentagon is another part of the Bush administration that very coldly, calmly remains relentlessly on message. And the Pentagon message is that the troops are doing an outstanding job, which, by all accounts, they are.
Everyone supports them. That reconstruction is under way, Iraqi security forces are being trained, and the plan is to move forward.
As one Pentagon official I spoke to this week said to me, we can -- he says, "We can't show any vulnerability. We can't be wrong. We have to keep going and say we're right."
And that is the message.
BASH: Boy, that's candor.
STARR: That is the message. And that -- but that --- what happens is, of course, they do get these little blips, the Paul Bremers of the world, who suddenly pop up and say things that don't quite fit.
VERJEE: Barbara, there was a significant firefight in Baghdad just around the area where journalists and contractors stay at the Palestine hotel, the Sheraton hotel in Baghdad. How significant was that firefight, or was it just an attempt by insurgents to grab the headlines because they know that the journalists are there and that they will make news?
STARR: Well, you know, they do -- that is their objective, that's what they're doing, this firefight. Our own Brent Sadler trying to do a live shot at night, as suddenly katusha (ph) rockets come flying by his head.
He and the cameraman hitting the deck. Then the tracer fire erupting, the machinegun fire. Riveting picture of what life is really like in Baghdad for ordinary Iraqis, for journalists.
But this was the face of the insurgency, the shoot-and-scoot tactics in the middle of the night, grabbing headlines, forcing the world's attention on to their activities. And by all accounts, they are successful at grabbing those headlines. It's going to be the Iraqi security forces that are going to take the country back, however. That is the plan.
BASH: And the hope. VERJEE: OK. Barbara, we're going to get the latest from Jane Arraf in northern Iraq. That's straight ahead.
And also coming up, I'm ON THE STORY of terrorism fears as the Muslim holy month of Ramadan coincides with the U.S. election.
And entertainment correspondent Sibila Vargas is on the story of how politics spills over into music.
That's all coming up. Plus, a check on what's making news right now.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HILL: I'm Erica Hill at the CNN Center in Atlanta.
U.N. officials in Afghanistan have rejected calls to void today's historic election, but said complaints of fraud will be investigated. Opposition candidates began crying foul within the hours after the polls opened. Polling for a new vote, because of flawed ink meant to make sure people voted only once. Turnout was heavy at many polling stations. No hostilities were reported.
In Australia, a key test of the Bush administration's policy in Iraq. Early results show the conservative government of Prime Minister John Howard has retained its majority in parliament, putting him on target for an historic fourth term. Mr. Howard has been a strong supporter of the Iraq war. His reelection means some 900 Australian troops will stay in Iraq for the foreseeable future.
In Iraq, meantime, a deal announced today to disarm the militia of Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr. It's hoped the agreement will end weeks of fighting in a volatile section of Baghdad. Terms call for Sadr's Mehdi Army to surrender medium and heavy weapons by Monday.
And in Arkansas, more than a dozen fatalities early this morning when a charter bus crashed on Interstate 55. It was carrying 30 people from Chicago on a gambling junket to a casino in Mississippi. The bus apparently took an exit ramp too fast and flipped over.
Those are the latest headlines at this hour. I'm Erica Hill in Atlanta. We now return to ON THE STORY.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our intent is to reconstruct the city. That's what we're here to do, to assist the government to do that.
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JANE ARRAF, CNN BAGHDAD BUREAU CHIEF: That was Colonel Randy Dragon (ph) from the 1st Infantry Division in Samarra. A reoccurring theme, battle for these cities and then the rebuilding.
I'm Jane Arraf in Samarra. Welcome back to ON THE STORY.
STARR: Jane, when we talked to you last week in Samarra, the fighting was -- was heavy. U.S. and coalition forces were still in the process of retaking the city. You're still there. What's the latest?
ARRAF: Barbara, it's calmed down considerably, to the point where there are U.S. soldiers walking around in the streets without being shot at routinely. Now, there are still a few roadside bombs around, there are still explosions, still some attacks. But they believe that they've gotten most of the insurgency.
They also believe that they'll probably come back. So this may be a lull. But it's a lot quieter. There are a lot more people out there venturing out, looking at their damaged shops and trying to figure out what's going on.
VERJEE: Jane, Samarra is being looked at as a success story, as a model for how to take over other Iraqi towns or cities that are still providing difficulties to both the U.S. there and the Iraqi administration. But the real question here is, if U.S. troops pull out of Samarra, can Iraqi troops hold it?
ARRAF: That is the question. You're absolutely right, Zain. And they're trying desperately here.
Now, this, I think, is an illustration of how complicated it gets, this city. It's getting dark now, but you can probably see a little bit behind me.
It's an ancient city with a sacred mosque, extremely important. And it was an irritant to Saddam Hussein for virtually decades. There are tribes upon tribes here, there are many different allegiances.
Right now, what they're grappling with is a police force that just did not work. They're bringing in a new police force, they're bringing in Iraqi National Guard and layers of other security forces, and trying to reestablish it from the ground up. You see them in the streets, which is an amazing thing.
And the U.S. officials say that it is a very good start. Just the fact that they're here.
BASH: Well, Jane, you talk about the security forces, Iraqi security force. But what about any kind of local Iraqi government trying to take hold and starting to take hold? What's the status of that?
ARRAF: That, again, I think, is the complication that the U.S. is going to face in city after city. People here are not used to having a local government.
We've been able to walk around the streets with the governor of the region and other officials, and it has been really quite heartening that people feel free to come out and complain to him. And complain they do. Now, they complain mostly about the Americans, but one thing the U.S. military is doing, which has proved effective, according to what we saw today on our rounds with them, is they take, essentially, literally, plastic bags full of cash, U.S. dollars, they go from shop to shop, shops that have been damaged, homes that have bullets in them, and they peel off these dollar bills, $10s and $20s and $100s at a time. And say, "We're really sorry, but aren't you glad the terrorists are gone? And we're sorry for the trouble."
And that is working very slowly. But that's an important part of what's happening here.
STARR: Jane, you know, as I say, we know that you've been there a while. Take us a little bit behind the scenes now.
You are living, we know, with U.S. troops in their encampment there. What's it like? What are the living conditions like? You know, what's going on day to day for the troops that you're with?
ARRAF: Well, Barbara, some of this would probably be the too much information. But let me just give you a little glimpse.
This is Patrol Base Razor. It's not a full-fledged forward operating base. So it's a place that soldiers come, and they don't spend a lot of time.
So consequently, I'm told it's the second worst Army base in Iraq. It's pretty dirty, and there are very minimal toilet facilities. There is no running water.
If you want to wash your hair, you use bottled water. And it's great that we have bottled water, although sometimes it's entirely frozen, so you can't really do that.
But I have to tell you the depths to which I have sunk. We went to hang out with the New York National Guard. Amazing people. There are carpenters and plumbers and all sorts of people, very resourceful.
And they don't have a lot of hair. But I asked them if anyone had shampoo. And lo and behold, someone did. lavender Herbal Essence Shampoo.
So I got to shampoo my hair for the first time in a few days. So that's kind of what it's like.
VERJEE: And it looks good, Jane.
Jane, on another note, the -- even though the U.S. is saying, look, this operation in Samarra has been successful, I know that you reported on Iraqi civilian casualties in Samarra. Tell us a little bit about that, the numbers, what happened, what people on the ground are saying about that.
ARRAF: That is a really interesting one. And we felt really lucky to be able to be here, because so often, we get press releases and we try to filter through what we've heard from officials, Iraqi officials, hospital officials with one number, U.S. officials with another number. And there's usually a lot of gap in between.
In this case, we were able to go to the main Samarra hospital. We actually went there with the U.S. military and were able to talk to hospital officials, were able to talk to relatives who came to the hospital, carrying white flags so they wouldn't be shot, to pick up the bodies of their relatives.
And in piecing it together, from the hospital records, and from what these relatives were saying, it appears that somewhere between at least 30 and 50 civilians were killed and brought to this one particular hospital. U.S. military figures are lower. They say those are the figures supplied to them.
But one of the things that we found and I think happens a lot is the hospital officials would not talk to the U.S. military. They were so angry, they would not show them their records. They would not really give them accurate details.
That is the extent of civilian casualties that we found. And put in perspective, in the big sense, much smaller casualties for the size and intensity of this operation than in other cities. But you can -- I'm sure you can imagine the absolute tragedy of each and every one of those -- each of these families who had their cars with women and children fired on, each of these civilians shot by mistake. It's a horrible thing, and I think we can't turn away from the fact that it is horrible.
VERJEE: Jane, as you continue to report from Samarra, give us a sense of what you're looking to cover in the next days.
ARRAF: There's an awful lot going on here. I guess it's the struggle that we see in other cities between, are they getting control of the insurgents, did they, indeed, capture and kill them, or do they have just a bunch of people who may not necessarily be the main source of the problem? And will this city get back on its feet in terms of the money getting out there.
And they have to pour a ton of money into here. There's a ton of money destined for Iraq that just has not been spent.
So we're going to be looking at that. We're going to be moving on to other cities in the Sunni Triangle. This is a fascinating place, a volatile place, and increasingly important as Iraqi elections come up in January.
VERJEE: Thanks, Jane. Good to talk to you.
Fresh terrorism fears not only in Iraq, as the Muslim holy month of Ramadan begins next week and coincides with the U.S. elections. We're back on that story after this.
Stay with us.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MJ GOHEL, TERROR EXPERT: It's a crime which can be exploited by radical clerics to motivate individuals into perhaps taking action on the basis that they're somehow serving their religion.
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VERJEE: Terror expert MJ Gohel about how coming days may offer a new opportunity for radical Muslim clerics to motivate and recruit terrorists. The Muslim holy month of Ramadan begins next week. And in the past, there's been an increase in terrorism.
Welcome back. We're ON THE STORY.
BASH: Zain, the first question is why? Why -- what is it about Ramadan that makes it a time where there is this fear of terrorism?
VERJEE: There's a feeling among terrorism experts that it's a window of opportunity. And any window of opportunity is something that terrorists are going to exploit.
Counter-terrorism officials have said, look, the fact that Ramadan coincides with the U.S. election, and the fact that there is definitive intelligence to indicate that al Qaeda is intent on either striking the U.S. homeland or U.S. interests abroad, is reason to worry. They say that it allows radical clerics who would preach in sermons -- and you'd have a lot more people going to mosques during Ramadan -- to incite people, to -- and it's also a time where there is heightened anger in the Arab and Muslim world over the war in Iraq, over the Israeli-Palestinian issues.
The images you see on television of children being pulled out of the rubble in Iraq, children being pulled out of the rubble in Gaza, is something that plays on Arab and Muslim sentiments and allows an opportunity for radical clerics to exploit. It's an important, though, to make the point that these are just radical clerics. The majority of Muslims in the world, one billion people, do not subscribe to that sort of extremist ideology.
STARR: Well, as you say, Zain, the majority of people who are of the Muslim faith, of course, every -- every reason to believe they, of course, will observe their holiday or their holy days in the most devout manner. But again, there have been historic examples where there has been trouble from the radical elements on the fringe.
And go back over some of that. Remind people what's happened in the past.
VERJEE: Exactly. Ramadan has provided that psychological symbolic impetus for attacks.
If you look at 2003, this is what you see during the month of Ramadan. The International Red Cross was attacked in Baghdad. A U.S. military helicopter was shot down in central Iraq. You had a housing compound in Riyadh that was also attacked. Italian troops, the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) were attacked in Nasiriyah, as well as two synagogues being attacked in Istanbul. So there is a history of attacks during the course of Ramadan. And those attacks have spiked. And that's the fear that a lot of terrorism experts and U.S. counter-terrorism officials are looking at this and saying, you know, we're really worried about this, particularly because it falls around the U.S. election.
The other point they add is that Ramadan also allows these radical clerics and extremists an opportunity to recruit. And that is a major concern that's been put out there. And they say, if there is more recruitment, you're going to see an influx of operatives and operational increase in Iraq and elsewhere. But it's a moment where there is an opportunity to recruit, and that's the other problem.
BASH: And what's it's interesting, also, is that there is a historical reason why these clerics are able to recruit, perhaps, these extremists. Tell us a little bit about that.
VERJEE: Yes, Dana. It's really interesting.
There is a date during Ramadan that the west doesn't really know about. It is called the Battle of Badr, and it's anniversary that falls on the 17th day into Ramadan. And that's a significant battle in the calendar of most Muslims, because this is a battle where the prophet, Mohammed, was the underdog.
In 624, he came with something like 300 men, he fought 1,000 men. He was fighting for Islam, and he won.
So while a lot of Muslims will mark this on their calendar -- and they celebrate it and they mark it peacefully -- there is that terrorist, that extremist element that will look at it and exploit it and say, well, you know, Mohammed, during the Battle of Badr, was the underdog, he fought for Islam, he won. And we're the underdogs on the war in terror. And it's not really a war on terror, it's a war in Islam -- or on Islam.
And there is a feeling that that date could also be exploited. And that date falls around the U.S. election.
BASH: Zain, thank you very much. Very interesting.
And we're going to go from some of the dangers that may lie ahead, to some of the possible diversions. CNN entertainment correspondent Sibila Vargas is on that story straight ahead.
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BRUCE SPRINSTEEN, MUSICIAN: We're here tonight to fight for a government that is open, rational, forward-looking and humane. And we plan to rock the joint while doing so.
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SIBILA VARGAS, CNN ENTERTAINMENT CORRESPONDENT: Superstar Bruce Springsteen is diving into politics. He and other prominent musicians are touring under the Vote for a Change banner.
I'm Sibila Vargas. Welcome back. We're ON THE STORY.
BASH: Sibila, tell us a little bit more about this Vote for a Change concert tour.
VARGAS: Well, it was organized by the MoveOn.org organization, which is, of course, a Democratic political party. And there's going to be a lot of artists there.
I mean, there actually were. There was Bonnie Raitt, you've got Bruce Springsteen, R.E.M., Dixie Chicks. A little bit for everyone.
And what they've done is that they've gone into the battleground states, 11 states and 33 cities, in a very short period of time, two weeks. And the big grand finale is going to be on Monday. And that's when all of the artists are going to get together, over 13 artists, if you can just imagine, the Dixie Chicks and all of these great artists getting ready together to kick it off at the MCI Center in Washington, D.C.
STARR: And politics and the entertainment industry really firmly linked this year in a number of areas. I know you were telling us before about some new developments with Michael Moore and his film, "Fahrenheit 9/11."
VARGAS: Yes. As you know, Michael Moore, I mean, the documentary did unbelievable at the box office. It really broke records for a documentary.
And then -- and now it's doing an unbelievably phenomenal on the home video sales. In the first day, it had two million dollars -- I'm sorry, two million copies sold. So that's pretty extraordinary.
And now, Michael Moore is trying to get his documentary on television before the actual election, a day before the election. And he's very close to inking a deal with Pay Per View right now.
That's according to "Variety." They're saying this process is imminent. And what's going to happen is that we'll be able to see Fahrenheit -- viewers will be able to see "Fahrenheit 9/11," and also a three-hour special that has celebrities actually talking about the movie, talking about Michael Moore, and their stance on the elections.
VERJEE: Sibila, I haven't seen a movie in ages. There are a number of -- there are a number of movies coming out.
"Shall we Dance," I understand, with Richard Gere and Jennifer Lopez. Tell us a little bit about the movie and -- I mean, you haven't seen Jennifer Lopez since "Gigli."
VARGAS: Oh, you saw the movie? You were actually one of the few that actually saw it?
VERJEE: I was the only one here who did. It was a bad day. VARGAS: Well, you know what? She's got a lot to prove. Poor Jennifer Lopez. She's been through the wringer, you know, with the Bennifer flack.
But, you know, she's back again in this movie. It's a very charming movie, it's an adaptation from a Japanese version.
It's about a married man looking for spice in life. And he actually goes to a dance instructor, which is played by Jennifer Lopez. And if you want to get spice, you don't get any spicier than that.
But I got a chance to speak to Jennifer Lopez in a New York junket the other day. And, you know, she's -- she's got a lot to prove. This is her first foray again after "Gigli." And, you know, all eyes are on her right now.
And I got a little time to talk to her about her personal life. And she's doing OK -- she's doing wonderfully.
She's a newlywed. But she doesn't want to talk about her personal life anymore.
I think what viewers are going to start seeing is a more demure, a more calculated Jennifer Lopez. She really wants to take life a little bit easier and really stop talking about her personal life because, as you know, it's really come back to bite her in the butt.
So she really wants to take another -- just another approach to life. And she actually is going to be coming out with a lot of movies, "An Unfinished Life" with Robert Redford, and also Jane Fonda, who wording with her on "Monster-in-Law."
And Jane Fonda gave her pretty good words of advice. She said, "Jennifer, you're a good actress. From now on, choose your roles and choose them wisely." So I think she's going to actually take that advice.
BASH: So let me just get this straight. While some of us are going and traveling around, going from buses to rallies to hotels, not that being on the campaign trail is not fun, but you're going and you're interviewing stars like Jennifer Lopez and Jude Law? Is that right?
VARGAS: That's true. I mean, you know, it's a tough job. But somebody's got to do it.
BASH: Tell us about his new movie coming out.
VARGAS: I've said that before.
BASH: He's got a new movie coming out as well, correct?
VARGAS: He does. He's going to be playing "Alfie." And I don't -- I don't know, some of you may remember the 1966 version of "Alfie" starring Michael Caine. And who could ever forget his performance? He got a nomination for best -- best actor for that role.
And now, Jude Law has some pretty tough shoes to fill. But according to all reports, and also speaking to Jude Law, Michael Caine really gave his blessings to this movie and really gave his blessings to Jude Law. And he said nobody else could play him and nobody else could play this character.
Of course, "Alfie" is about a womanizer who goes around and just plays with all kinds of women and plays with their minds. And, you know, I think the biggest challenge in this move -- because I got to see it -- is that the character spends so much time actually talking to the camera. He breaks that wall.
And I think that that is some type of an endeavor that, really, I haven't seen in a long time. In fact, I can't even remember the last time I saw an actor kind of doing his scene and then all of a sudden looking to the camera and speaking to us, the audience.
So I think that's the greatest challenge for Paramount. But I think Jude Law did a pretty good job. He's certainly one of the sexiest men in the universe right now. And he's a pretty busy actor, actually. Six movies by the end of the year. So pretty incredible.
STARR: Well, I'm with Zain and Dana on this, Sibila. I want to trade jobs with you. I volunteer to come out there. We thank you.
And we're back ON THE STORY after this.
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BASH: Thanks to my colleagues, and thank you for watching ON THE STORY. We'll be back next week.
Coming up, "PEOPLE IN THE NEWS," focusing this week on Martha Stewart and Howard Stern.
Straight ahead, a check at what's making news right now.
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