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On the Story

Tommy Franks, Paul Bremer and George Tenet get Presidential Medal of Freedom; How Will Kerik Affect Rudy Giuliani's Political Plans;

Aired December 18, 2004 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(NEWSBREAK)
KATHLEEN HAYES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Welcome to CNN's ON THE STORY where our journalists have the inside word on the stories we covered this week.

I'm Kathleen Hayes in Washington on the story this week of President Bush talking about dramatic second term changes in how we save, how we pay taxes.

LIZ NEISLOSS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Liz Neisloss in New York on the story of how the United Nations, it's insisting that it's prepared for elections, the upcoming elections in Iraq.

ALINA CHO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Alino Cho, also in New York, on the story of the Unabomber's brother and his fight against reinstating the death penalty.

CHRISTY FEIG, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: I'm Christy Feig on the story of new concerns at the end of the week over Celebrex, the usually popular arthritis painkiller.

DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: And, I'm Dana Bash on the continuing fallout over Bernie Kerik, the president's first choice to oversee homeland security and growing criticism of his Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.

Also coming up we'll talk about how this time of year can be hazardous to your health and how the White House team has the time and the inclination to put together a video about the president's dog.

E-mail us onthestory@cnn.com. Now straight to Kathleen and the economic summit.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm passionate on the subject because I want America to be the best place in the world for people to find work or to raise their family or to get good healthcare.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: President Bush at his economic summit on Wednesday where he made his pitch for changes in how we pay taxes, how we save for retirement, even how we view the legal system.

CHO: Kathleen, this is Alina in New York. This was part PR, part policy, so talk about the president's plan. I know you're great at boiling it down in English.

HAYES: Well, you know, Alina, I think it was interesting that this was a very carefully orchestrated event. This was not an opportunity for the voices of the opposition, the pro this, the against that to get together.

NEISLOSS: A lot of pro this.

HAYES: Well, exactly. You're right because against that was not there as you full well know. But the president, I just think it's interesting that he has so hammered down the point that he wants to reform Social Security. He's going to get it done.

On Wednesday, when he was there for an hour helping Don Evans, the outgoing commerce secretary, his buddy from Texas who is going back home, oversee the panel on tort reform. He was gently pounding the table. He says he's passionate. He said tort reform, runaway lawsuits are driving up the cost of healthcare, just one of the things that he says he's going to get done in the second term.

BASH: But the bottom line, Kathleen, that we learned this week is that we know very little about what the president actually wants to do on Social Security, right? We know three things as you know.

He mentioned over and over again that he wants to at least privatize some of Social Security and we know two things he doesn't want to do, increase payroll taxes and decrease benefits but that leaves a lot out there that we don't know, right?

HAYES: Don't you think that's smart because he knows that in order to get anything like this passed he's going to have to get the middle onboard with him. At some point he will have to engage the people who don't necessarily feel that we need to do anything but tinker with Social Security.

I think it was very interesting too, Dana, that he said, "I believe we shouldn't increase payroll taxes." It seems to me that maybe he's not ruling that out. He may oppose it but he didn't say "read my lips, no new taxes."

He also makes it very clear that he thinks, he's saying benefits will not be cut for people at or near retirement. Well, doesn't that leave open the door to eventually saying that younger workers are going to have to take some reduction in their benefits?

But the idea is if you start investing in these personal savings accounts, then you will be, people say you can beat the return you would have gotten on your government money and people will be willing to take some reduction of benefits because they can make it up with these personal accounts but this is going to be a huge debate.

FEIG: You know one of the things I've heard quite a bit is you often hear touching Social Security is political suicide. Is that the case here because he's awfully brave about this?

HAYES: You know what's interesting to me, I must admit to being kind of dense here because this also kind of snuck up on me. I thought how could he really be serious about it? It's such a big deal to get into.

But this "Wall Street Journal" poll this week was very interesting. There's only one in five people under the age of 65 who thinks their benefits are going to be there when they retire. More and more young people are worried. They're worried about their parents who retired. They're worried about their future retirement.

In fact, there was a young woman at this conference who was part of the Women's Coalition for Social Security Choice. I apologize to the coalition. I slightly bungled their name. But she said, "I'm concerned. I want these personal savings accounts. I want retirement, Social Security retirement for me and for my daughter."

So, I think there's a generational divide here and I think that's what the forces who support Bush's vision are going to be playing on.

NEISLOSS: Another area though, Kathleen, the Bush administration seems to have a very specific policy on is the weak dollar and that is supposed to fix the giant U.S. trade imbalance in their view but that doesn't seem to be working. What are you hearing?

HAYES: Well, of course, it's interesting. We know it's a strong dollar policy and this feels a little bit like Alice through the looking glass. They keep saying we favor a strong dollar but the markets can determine it. And, obviously, Liz, you're absolutely right.

The administration has condoned, allowed the dollar to slide because it could help fix the trade deficit but the link with this whole Bush vision for the second term is there's a big budget deficit.

He says he's going to cut it in half in five years. This week the head of the Congressional Budget Office, which is like the budget watchdog, who is even a Republican said, look, there's no way you can grow out of this deficit. We're going to have to look at certainly no more tax cuts and with Social Security, which could be a big part of this, he says we may have to raise taxes, cut benefits.

But he also put the finger on defense and how it's growing so fast and at some point in the near future the cost for defense is going to go past the cost of Social Security. There's a lot of strains in this budget and that's what's hurting the dollar.

CHO: Kathleen, the Fed, as you know, raised interest rates another quarter point this week. That's supposed to be a sign of economic growth but we have this weak dollar, so how does that happen? How do you reconcile that?

HAYES: Well, I think the markets, for one thing the markets have fully priced in this interest rate increase, Alina, from the Federal Reserve and what's really interesting right now and I know you got to bear with me for a minute, but the Fed only controls short-term interest rates.

The financial markets control long-term interest rates and long- term interest rates tend to move more with inflation and the inflation picture is still pretty tame. The word is, though, if the dollar keeps sliding, foreign investors, big institutional investors will say "I'm losing money by buying U.S. stocks and bonds because they're denominated in dollars." They might pull back from that.

Interesting that when the president was talking to Berlusconi, the Prime Minister of Italy, he addressed this and once again said, look, we know it's a problem but we are going to reduce the budget deficit.

BASH: Right because that they realize is a big issue obviously for world leaders but also for some of the president's fellow Republicans. Fiscal conservatives were really upset about this.

One thing I wanted to ask you going back to Social Security is a lot of Democrats are looking at this and saying the president is exaggerating the problem. It's not going to go broke until 2042, almost 40 years from now, so what's the deal? I mean you know the ins and outs of Social Security. Is there really a crisis?

HAYES: The system right now heads toward a point where it won't be solvent. You'll have to do something. Right now the amount of payroll taxes going in are more than the money being paid out but what's happening is there's fewer and fewer younger workers and more and more retired workers, so at some point that gets even.

At some point, there is just not enough people working to pay those payroll taxes and give the same level of benefits. By about mid-century, if we do nothing, it sounds like the worst that could happen is people would only be getting about 75 percent of their benefits.

But I think what's going to happen this year in this debate is it's not just going to be the numbers. It's going to be philosophy. It's going to be a sense of I want to own part of my tax money.

The people who support this, I don't think it's just the numbers. It's not just saving Social Security. It's a different view of government. Don't tax me as much. Let me keep it. Let me invest it and have control of it.

BASH: This obviously was the beginning of what the White House says is going to be a massive PR campaign and, of course, the economy is just part of the White House agenda.

The president started the week by honoring three men at the very heart of his Iraq policy. I'm back on that story right after this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Dana Bash is a CNN White House Correspondent. Previously, she was a Capitol Hill Producer for CNN. The National Press Foundation gave her its Dirksen Award in 2002 for distinguished reporting on Congress. She graduated cum laude from George Washington University.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: Today, this honor goes to three men who have played pivotal roles in great events and whose efforts have made our country more secure and advanced the cause of human liberty.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: President Bush on Tuesday, the great event, of course, the decision and the follow-through on invading Iraq, toppling Saddam Hussein and occupying the country. That Tuesday ceremony say Mr. Bush presenting the Presidential Medal of Freedom to former CIA Director George Tenet, former Iraq Administrator Paul Jerry Bremer, and retired General Tommy Franks.

We're back ON THE STORY. Welcome back.

FEIG: Now, Dana, I have a question about this. All three of those medals went to men who were involved in what many people say was the president's or is the president's biggest failure. How unusual is that?

BASH: Well, first of all, the White House would say, would argue that it's not the president's biggest failure and sort of thinking about this and watching this, it is indicative of the way the White House is looking at Iraq right now and is convinced itself and is trying to convince the world to look at it, which is the long view, which is that, you know, you might not agree with it and there might have been perhaps some mistakes in the initial planning and mistakes now.

But they are convinced that when you look at this 30 years from now, when you sort of look at history and perhaps look back on who the president gave these medals to that these people will look like they were prescient and that they helped create a democracy that didn't exist.

Now, obviously, history will be the judge of that but I have to say the funniest or sort of most telling way that this story was told this week of these three men getting this was, I think it was the "Washington Post."

It just sort of said flatly that these three men got it and then afterwards it said and past recipients include the Pope, Mother Teresa, Mr. Rogers and Rosa Parks, so I think that sort of said it all.

NEISLOSS: Well let's go, Dana, from that very pretty picture to a kind of an uglier picture with Bernie Kerik and that whole bumbling over the nomination for homeland security. He obviously wasn't exactly Mother Teresa and they are looking for somebody like (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

BASH: That's the understatement of the year.

NEISLOSS: So, what happened and are they now looking for a Mr. or Mrs. Squeaky Clean? Is that the thing they have to do?

BASH: Absolutely and, you know, look the history of this administration is that they almost always find Mr. or Ms. Squeaky Clean and that's why this is such -- this is an oops for any administration but it's, you know, a mega oops, if you will, for these guys because it just doesn't happen.

And, you know, look throughout the week leading up to when Bernie Kerik finally pulled his name out, you know, they said, look, we understand that there are some issues but we know about all those and there's no deal breaker here.

And then, of course, since then it's been remarkable but I think there's a combination of things. First of all, Bernie Kerik is somebody the president really liked. He campaigned with him. Of course, they had the 9/11 bond.

But also they relied on Rudy Giuliani, as we know, who has come out in the New York press and sort of had several mea culpas. But also I think that there was a sense that perhaps they were assuming that Bernie Kerik had already gone through the New York tabloid meat grinder and that if things were really that bad they wouldn't be deal breakers.

HAYES: But does this mean anything for Rudy Giuliani because he has become one of the bright and shiny stars of the Republican Party, maybe a contender for the president in 2008 but more and more unsavory things are coming out about Kerik.

There's more and more subpoenas and investigations being launched on various business dealings allegedly with some characters who broke the law. We don't know what's going to happen.

We know he had this really raunchy affairs with two women while he was married to one. I mean, please. This is one of Rudy Giuliani's top guys. Does any of this kind of wash on to Rudy Giuliani and (UNINTELLIGIBLE)?

BASH: Well, in a way Rudy Giuliani has sort of responded to this. You can tell that just from reading the things he's said that he's obviously worried that he came out and he had an interview with the "New York Times" almost immediately.

You know, he had a press conference saying mea culpa. It's my fault. He had dinner last Sunday night with the president. That was sort of made public that the two of them had dinner and that he apologized to the president.

Time will tell on that. I mean it's unclear but clearly Rudy Giuliani since 9/11 has been the ultimate shining star and, as the White House likes to say, America's mayor and this certainly at least in the short term seems to have tarnished it.

It also does beg the question, I should have mentioned before that a lot of people are asking is why is it that the White House did rely so much on this and they didn't have their own proper vetting process? And they're definitely taking their time a little bit more on this next pick for sure.

CHO: Dana, when you think about Rudy Giuliani, you think about America's mayor, 9/11. You know the president signed the 9/11 intelligence bill on Friday. Critics call him the Johnny-come-lately but you say he's still going to get credit.

BASH: Absolutely. You know, look at the Homeland Security Department. That is something that the president signed into law after initially saying "It's unnecessary. We don't need it."

Now, when he campaigned he talked about one of the greatest accomplishments of his first term was creating the Homeland Security Department. Now, whether or not he'll, you know, campaign on that and talk about that as this particular change in government, the first time the intelligence community has been reformed in 60 years as a major piece of his legacy we'll see.

But the bottom line is that when you look at the 9/11 Commission, the creation of that which essentially led to these reforms, he opposed that and he relented and then every step of the way while the 9/11 Commission was going on, there were definite skirmishes about how much access they could have and even he was a little bit reluctant to embrace the recommendations that were in this bill initially.

But now he supports it. Whether or not it was because he couldn't have a legislative failure before he starts a second term we'll never know the real reason for that but the bottom line is, you see there, he's signing it and that's what history will remember.

FEIG: Dana, let's jump to Rumsfeld for just a second. He certainly has come under a lot of fire this week in the past few days. What's going on there and is it even conceivable that in a war time the defense secretary could resign?

BASH: Look, it's conceivable but here's what White House officials say when you talk to them, essentially saying mostly the same thing in public as in private. But it's that in terms of the criticism, yes, it's Republican.

But there are Republicans and then there are Republicans meaning that there are -- the critics that have come out are Senator McCain, Senator Chuck Hagel and others who are known critics of Secretary Rumsfeld who are not shy about criticizing the administration.

And, at this point, they -- and, for example, Senator Trent Lott, I should say, somebody who is not exactly a fan of the administration at this point. They've had their problems.

At this point, the president is saying that he has his, Rumsfeld has his full support. That is why they put out two weeks ago, unlike other cabinet members, that he wants him to say, that he personally likes Secretary Rumsfeld.

But you sort of alluded to it, Christy. The bottom line is I actually got a White House official to admit this in a rare moment of candor that the political calculus is you can't fire Secretary Rumsfeld, who essentially embodies and personifies the Iraq War right now because it would be a tacit admission of defeat.

They don't want that right now. They certainly don't want that before what they hope will be the Iraqi elections at the end of January. So, we'll see what happens in the near future, definitely monitoring this, definitely they're waiting to see if other Republicans come out. They're trying to get top leaders to say that they support him. We'll see what happens.

NEISLOSS: He's absolutely an unpredictable guy. Do you have the feeling though that there is perhaps a little reining in or is that sort of an impossible situation with Rumsfeld? It's very hard to imagine.

BASH: Well, they admit, you know, Liz, they admit at the White House that he is who he is and that he is somebody who speaks with candor. Look, they do admit that he has some questions to answer and part of the reason why some of these Republican Senators, for example, like Susan Collins of Maine came out and wrote a letter, is she's angry because she says she's asked about the armor issue. She's asked about that and she's been told it's going to be fine. It's going to be fine. It's going to fine and obviously it's not. So, they say, look, he has some legitimate questions to answer but the president at this point supports him.

CHO: Well, Dana, from your beat at the White House to an emotional political issue playing out in the states, the death penalty. I talked to the man who turned in his own brother, the Unabomber, to federal authorities. He's now leading the charge against the death penalty. I'm back on that story after a break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID KACZYNSKI, BROTHER OF UNABOMBER TED KACZYNSKI: I'll tell you I do have the regrets I feel are from earlier in my life. I look back now and I wish for Ted's sake and for his victims' sake and for their families' sake that I had just maybe been a little bit better of a brother.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHO: "I wish I'd been a better brother," that from David Kaczynski. He turned in his own brother, Ted Kaczynski, you'll recall, when he realized he was the serial killer known as the Unabomber. Now that brother is working to keep New York from bringing back the death penalty.

Welcome back. We're ON THE STORY. HAYES: You know, Alina, this is such a fascinating story. It's one that just suddenly pulls us back in time. How did you link up with him? What led you down this path to look into his life and see where he is now?

CHO: Well really, Kathleen, we looked at the issue of New York considering reinstating the death penalty and we thought of him immediately. I mean who could forget those images of Ted Kaczynski being pulled out of his Montana cabin by FBI agents.

And what happened was David Kaczynski, the brother who turned him in, had worked with the FBI for many, many months in 1995. Implicitly he thought that FBI agents were telling him, listen, your brother is sick. We're not going to seek the death penalty. They didn't explicitly say that but they said, listen, you know, he'll get a lot of help, a lot of treatment for his mental illness in prison.

And, as David Kaczynski says his relationship with the FBI ended the day Ted was arrested because immediately the government decided to seek the death penalty and he believes the only reason why his brother's life was spared was because he had very good lawyers and a lot of media attention surrounding the case.

FEIG: You know, Alina, this must have been an absolutely fascinating interview to do. I mean what was he like as a person and does he have any regrets turning his brother in?

CHO: Well, I can tell you that they called him Mr. Rogers during his days as a social worker, you know, very soft-spoken, really, really friendly guy. You know we talked to him for nearly an hour and I could have talked to him all day.

I mean he was recounting all of these childhood stories. You know the two brothers were very, very close growing up. David was the younger brother by seven years but they were very close to the point where Ted actually had nightmares about not being able to help his brother.

And, you know, the two shared interests including, interestingly enough, a love of wilderness, a love of sports. He told this great story about David tried to convince Ted to join a softball league and one day Ted got seven hits in a row. He was the star of the team and everyone was high-fiving (ph) him.

And David said, you know, "I felt so great that day because Ted was such a loner, a lonely person and he really didn't have any friends" and that was sort of his one shining moment that he recalls.

NEISLOSS: So, Alina, they were close. They have these wonderful stories growing up. Did you get the feeling though that David had any idea, saw anything coming in his brother, any, you know, you would think the strange behavior that he would have had clues early on? What did he tell you about that?

CHO: Well, as you heard him say earlier there were regrets that he feels are from earlier on in his life. You know, he really didn't -- I think he always knew that his brother was a bit odd, a bit strange but, you know, he was his brother and was still very close to him.

It wasn't really until his wife, Linda, suggested to him, listen, you know, your brother might be the Unabomber and imagine hearing that. And so then, the manifesto was published and David took pains to read all 35,000 words and it was only then that he realized that there were certain phrases that actually matched up with letters that Ted had sent him over the years.

For instance, Ted referred to philosophers as cool-headed logicians and that was actually in one letter that David had received. And so, he called the FBI in 1995 and you can imagine, he said, you know, "At the time it was not easy to turn in the Unabomber. I mean what was I going to say? I was hearing my brother's voice in the manifesto." But eventually over time they developed a relationship and, of course, as you know, Ted was caught in 1996.

BASH: Alina, I want to ask about another story that you worked on this week, fascinating. You call it extreme commuting. You said that you were with somebody who actually traveled five hours a day to get to work.

CHO: Dana, it's unbelievable, yes.

BASH: Especially (UNINTELLIGIBLE) it takes me seven minutes that is.

CHO: We actually -- we actually did the commute. We did the commute with this woman. Her name is Shelly Giblin (ph). She lives in the Poconos in Pennsylvania. Here's a rundown of her day.

She wakes up at 4:00 in the morning. She's in the car, I don't know if you caught that but she's actually eating breakfast while she drives to the park and ride. That's a ten-minute drive.

Then she gets on a bus, two hours, where there is a no talking rule on the bus, so everyone sleeps. You can imagine. She gets on the bus at 5:00 in the morning. Everybody wants to sleep.

Then, you see her there. It's not even light out and she is walking to work. She gets off the bus in the city after a two-hour ride, walks 20 minutes in the freezing cold to her office. We actually did this trek with her.

Why does she do it? Well, it's about owning a piece of the American dream. I mean this is about owning a home and some people call it driving until you qualify and that's exactly what she and her husband did.

I mean this is a couple. They've been married 22 years. They're in their 50s and they bought their first home nine years ago for $150,000 and that's what they could afford and this is where they could afford it.

HAYES: This is one of the reasons I love the story. This is an economic story, Alina, please. This is -- because home prices have gone up so much and the closer you are to an urban center the more out of reach they are for many people. But because I go out to the Poconos a lot, I've ridden that bus in actually.

I know there's a surprising number of people doing this because the home prices are up and the wages I guess you could say haven't kept up for many middle class people to buy the kind of home they want to have.

CHO: You know, and it's true that this is a trend. I mean, you know, extreme commuters make up one of the fastest-growing segments of commuters. This is clearly part of, you know, the baby boomers joining the labor force and also women joining the labor force in substantial numbers.

You know, interestingly enough this is also a function of technology, you know. Cell phones and laptops have really made it easier for people to say, get in a car and get some work done on the phone or get on a train and do some work on the laptop.

So, also I should mention, as my esteemed producer has just told me, we should mention the full report will be on "AMERICAN MORNING" on Monday morning from 7:00 to 10:00 a.m., so you won't want to miss that report you guys.

FEIG: I understand why they do it but I'm still not sure I could do a five-hour commute.

CHO: Right.

FEIG: So, we go from the extremes of commuting to questions about a popular painkiller and why the medical experts are warning that we are coming up to some of the most dangerous days of the year. I'm back on that story in a moment.

HAYES: Also coming up ON THE STORY, a new look at the flu vaccine shortage. Did those federal guidelines mean having flu shots left over in this country?

And, Kofi comes calling, the United Nations Secretary-General is in Washington this week saying preparations for Iraq elections are on time and on track.

Stay with us ON THE STORY.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. MARIE GRIFFIN, VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY MEDICAL CENTER: From my standpoint there could be additional studies done but until there are additional studies I don't think it's warranted for most people to take the risk.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FEIG: Dr. Marie Griffin of Vanderbilt University Medical Center saying for most of us Celebrex, a hugely popular painkiller may not be worth the possible risk. The manufacturer, Pfizer, said yesterday that a long-term cancer study showed Celebrex increased cardiovascular risk but Pfizer is still selling it, while promising immediate steps to understand the new research.

Welcome back. We're ON THE STORY.

NEISLOSS: This does not seem to be the first time we're hearing this kind of story. It seems almost every week, every few weeks there's another drug that suddenly gets pulled off the market. So, what's happening? What's happening with the process?

FEIG: That's exactly right and it's certainly fueled that issue. This added fuel to that fire big time. Think of it this way. The FDA has two missions. Half of it approves drugs. The other half monitors drugs that have been approved.

And it's growing a criticism. The group keeps getting bigger and bigger every time one of these happens and why do we have the same group that's approving them, monitoring their safety because it's going to be like one side says "Oh this is good" and then four years later they have to say "Oops, we made a mistake."

So, there's growing criticism that's coming out that says, you know, maybe we need to have an independent group that monitors these drugs once they get on the market.

There was a very interesting sound byte that came in yesterday from that group and it basically said the watchdogs are drugged. Now the FDA on their side will say, look, you know, we're doing as much as we can here.

But these large scale clinical trials, the ones that are done just before FDA approval, are done in thousands of patients and basically you're not going to know what some of these side effects are going to be until millions start coming in and that's when it gets on the market.

BASH: Twenty-three million or so people take Celebrex. OK, so they haven't taken it off the market. What does this mean to people who are -- who have Celebrex in their medicine cabinet? Should they take it or not take it?

FEIG: Well, that's the big question here. I mean after Vioxx, Celebrex' maker was out there saying, look, Celebrex is safe. Celebrex is safe. We have no studies that show something like this. Then this comes up. What should consumers do?

The FDA was saying yesterday, look, we're still reviewing this but in the meantime go talk to your doctors and they're actually recommending that doctors start going back to some of the old drugs, remember the aspirins, the ibuprofens, the naproxens, things that are available over the counter. They're saying we should go back to those for right now until we sort this out.

HAYES: Great for consumers but investors and the people who run the drug companies are not happy. This is a blockbuster drug. Vioxx was a blockbuster drug. Merck got hammered. Pfizer got hammered on this.

Now, like you said, they're not taking it off the market yet and there are some questions about that study that was done that had the bad results was actually trying to figure out a link between cancer and if Celebrex could stop tumors from growing.

So, they say it wasn't a fair study but you just kind of wonder if a lot of these drug companies are going to find that in particular these Cox-2 inhibitors are just something that made them tons of money for a while but from here on out aren't going to do the same.

FEIG: That's exactly right. Celebrex, actually, is looking at making up about ten percent of Pfizer's revenue, so it's a big chunk of their money. There were two studies, just to refresh you. There were two studies that came in yesterday.

One was from the National Institutes of Health. That was the cancer study. They looked at 400mg and 800mg. They found problems in both of those but, as you said, it was a cancer prevention trial basically.

The other one was a Pfizer study that came in yesterday also and it showed no problems, so that's one of the reasons that Pfizer is saying, hey look, this is just one study. We have many studies that show there is no problems here. This could just be something.

But then again, a lot of these studies that are done by the pharmaceutical companies, people are saying, well wait. Don't they have a vested interest here? Wouldn't they maybe skew the results, make the drug look favorable to them?

CHO: Christy, let's talk a little bit about what I like to call the flu shot flap. First there weren't enough. Now there are too many. I mean what is your advice now to people who are thinking about getting the flu shot? I always think of early in the season and then if you miss the boat you shouldn't get it but you're saying no. I mean actually you can get it now and there's plenty available, right?

FEIG: There's no other way I can say this other than that it's human nature. When there is nothing and we have a big shortage, people are going to line up and demand it. When we have an abundance of something, people are pretty much going to say, people are pretty much going to say, oh I don't want it. We don't need it. It breeds complacency.

BASH: But isn't that why it is available because people thought there was a shortage?

FEIG: That's exactly right. That is the key here. Basically, about half the people who were considered that high risk category never even bothered to go out and try to get the vaccine because they thought it was completely impossible. They didn't think they'd even get it. So now, the CDC, an advisory committee yesterday looked at this and they're recommending that the CDC actually change their recommendations. Remember, before they were saying high risk people only, 65 and older, you know, kids between six months and 23 months, pregnant women.

Now they're saying everyone 50 and older should probably try to get the flu vaccine. So now they're going to broaden that a little bit because, remember, what isn't used this year is thrown away.

NEISLOSS: Well, we have the flu season but we also have the holiday season, which always seems to have an interesting medical story. We've all heard over they years depression and the holidays are always linked. But you covered another story, another medical story about the holidays.

FEIG: Yes. This one, every once in a blue moon covering this beat there's a study that comes across my desk that makes me go, you got to be kidding me. This was one of those studies.

The study says that, yes, we've known that deaths are higher during the winter season. We've just known this. But this study actually said, and they looked at 53 million people. This was a huge study, over 26 years. They said there's actually more deaths on Christmas Day, the day after and New Year's Day than any other day of the year.

HAYES: Why?

BASH: Yes, why?

HAYES: (UNINTELLIGIBLE.)

FEIG: That's right. No, they say that during the holidays people actually delay going to the doctor. They actually wait and don't go because, you know, family is coming in. Stress is going on. They're traveling, what have you, so they don't go to the doctor.

But there's another catch here. They say actually during your holidays your health facilities aren't as well staffed. Think about it. We go skeletal. People go on vacation. You've got your people who haven't been there as long running it.

And remember the Institute of Medicine report that said it's mainly what between 50,000 and 98,000 deaths every year from medical errors, so they say that actually may be contributing here as well.

BASH: That's scary.

HAYES: That's scary.

NEISLOSS: Well, Christy -- Christy from the medical to the diplomatic beat, sounds sort of like a big jump but not too big. The Secretary- General of the United Nations Kofi Annan went to the home base of some of his harshest critics this week. Mr. Annan went to Washington and I'm on that story after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KOFI ANNAN, U.N. SECRETARY-GENERAL: It's not a question of numbers. It's a question of what you need to get the job done and are we doing the job? Yes, we are doing the job.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NEISLOSS: The job helping set up Iraq's elections. That was Kofi Annan, United Nations Secretary-General in Washington Thursday saying despite pressure from Washington and Baghdad, the U.N. is doing what needs to be done for those elections.

Welcome back. We're ON THE STORY.

BASH: And, Liz, you obviously heard there him saying that it's not the numbers but the White House does want the U.N. to send more than the 25 election monitors that they're sending now to Iraq and essentially we're told and he was asked point blank when he came to the White House, when he was at the State Department. What's your sense? Is there any kind of movement there from the U.N. that they're going to help out a little bit more?

NEISLOSS: There really isn't a sense that they will change on the numbers but the U.N. actually gets very testy when you talk to officials about doing more because they feel they have a little bit of a perception problem.

The U.N. was asked to help set up elections. They have to help set up polling places and train polling workers, election workers. They've been training a lot of people, 6,000 election workers outside of Iraq, doing sort of round robins where Iraqis go into Iraq and train other Iraqis. This is all because of security constraints for the U.N.

So, from the U.N. side they are doing what they're supposed to do and one U.N. official said to me, look, we could put thousands more people on the ground but that wouldn't change things. We are doing our job and we're getting it done but still there is pressure.

There's a lot of pressure from the U.S. and from the Iraqi side. The Iraqis want a show of support from the U.N. and they think to a certain extent it will give them a little more credibility for their elections, for the interim government elections now to have the U.N. more present.

CHO: Liz, let's switch gears and talk a little bit about Oil for Food, a story that's been getting a lot of attention lately. You've been covering the U.N. for eight years I know. What -- I know you see Kofi Annan a lot. He's sort of seen as this pillar of strength but he's only human. How do you think that he is weathering this storm?

NEISLOSS: Well, he is someone who presents a pretty even, steady face in public. Privately you hear those who are around him say that he has been a little bit depressed. You can imagine this would have to get to him. Oil for Food not only is really attacking his organization, the organization that he's the head of, the whole scandal, all the calls from Washington for him to resign.

But it's also obviously hit close to home because his own son, Kojo Annan, is now being accused of perhaps not directly being involved in the Oil for Food problems but having used his contacts with a company that was dealing with Oil for Food, a company called Kotechna (ph) which did have a big job vetting goods going into Iraq for Oil for Food.

Kojo Annan worked for Kotechna. He, according to Kojo Annan and according to the U.N. and Kotechna, he did not -- he was not involved in Oil for Food but there are documents. Congressional investigators are floating around documents that show interesting hotel bills and phone records and travel itineraries that suggest that Kojo Anna may have been using his influence in improper ways.

But I have to tell you that this week for the first time we did hear -- CNN did really get a statement from Kojo Annan, who has not been talking about the situation.

Kofi Annan has been a little surprised at some of the links that perhaps might have been revealed. But Kojo Annan said this is really a witch hunt, that this is a Republican effort to try to derail his father and that all of this will be proven false.

FEIG: You know, Liz, I'm wondering about something here. I know no one is accusing Annan himself of being on the take here but I'm wondering is this weakening him at all as far as his son being involved?

I mean if you think about it like a big business, a lot of times the head of the big business has to, you know, step down or resign in an accusation even though he's innocent because the allegations themselves are enough to damage the reputation of the company. And I'm wondering if we're going to see something like that here?

NEISLOSS: Well, this is a situation where you have a lot of calls about Annan's responsibility, potential responsibility, calls for his resignation. This is very much what we saw last week. There were U.S. editorials. There were certain congressional officials who were calling for Annan to resign.

The U.N. would very much like to position this as last week's story but you saw when he went to Washington. You know and I know very well the U.N. thinks very carefully about what meetings they're going to have, who Annan will be standing next to, what kind of support he'll be having. He now has a very clear international support after these calls for resignation that...

HAYES: Liz, I'd like to ask you a quick final question here.

NEISLOSS: Sure.

HAYES: Because I just want to follow on the point you're going because I think there are defenders who say this is king of a hypocritical way to try to undermine not just Kofi Annan but the U.N. by people who have been really trying to undermine it for a long time because this Oil for Food scandal, people knew for years scheming was going on and that there's a lot of politics being played here.

NEISLOSS: There certainly is. I have heard from many people that when you knock the U.N. it is an easy applause line. It's political red meat for those Republicans, conservatives, who have never really liked the U.N.

There are a lot of very legitimate questions. There is a lot of sense that there does need to be reform at the U.N. But when you talk to the experts, the oil experts, when you talk to the diplomatic officials who know Oil for Food, which was hugely complicated inside and out, they will say governments knew what was going on. Most of this was not something that should have taken anyone, including the U.S. government, by surprise.

HAYES: OK. It's a complicated story.

But, you know, after a complicated story, you know, sometimes you got to sit back and relax and we're going to talk now how does the Bush administration relax after a hard day of Iraq and other challenges? Well, it's on a Christmas video starring first dog Barney. Dana is back on this story right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: Barney, I know you wanted to be in my cabinet but I've already given you an important job. Your job is to take care of Ms. Beasley (ph).

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: The latest Barney video. Of course, we can't live without our annual Christmas Barney video. The White House really gets a kick out of putting him in these shots. It's on the website. People can click on it. And, of course, Barney has his own homepage on the White House website for anybody who wants to check it out.

HAYES: He's a cute little dog. You know, this kind of, you know, President Bush is a very humorous guy. Is he looking for his next job? Is he going to unseat Jay Leno when he leaves the White House in a few years?

BASH: I wouldn't hold my breath on that one, nor others perhaps who are in this video. I think maybe probably I'll get in trouble for saying this but some acting lessons would be in order for a Christmas present for next year's video.

But, look, they like doing this. They love Barney. It's sort of become their thing, their shtick. They obviously have this now. They did a Barney video, you remember, during the Republican Convention.

It sort of allows them to show their light side that they're not all buttoned up and businesslike and it's not, you know, the serious Bush White House which, of course, as they're reputed to be. So, it's sort of a fun holiday thing. FEIG (?): Dana and Kathleen, I know this was also an opportunity for the White House to show off the decorations. I mean those Christmas decorations are absolutely beautiful. Somehow my invitation got lost in the mail but you two seemed to make it to the White House Christmas party. What was that like?

HAYES: That's the first time I ever went to the Christmas party. To me just being inside the White House is absolutely thrilling because it is so beautiful. You know, standing next to a portrait of a president, FDR, Chester Arthur, whoever, and the beautiful old, American artwork, the delicious eggnog. I mean it was a fabulous event.

BASH: I mean, of course, there's nothing more beautiful than the White House during the holiday season. They had it all decorated in like a sort of a winter wonderland and it was really beautiful. You can walk through the rooms and see all of the history.

But the other really, the thing that I thought about the entire time and I've sort of been thinking about it over the past couple of weeks is that the President and Mrs. Bush have two and a half weeks of two of these parties a night. That means 6,500 people they have to shake hands with, smile with, chit-chat with.

HAYES: And they are so wonderful to every person.

BASH: It's torture. I think it's torture.

HAYES: You know, with the people coming up, each one, President Bush and the first lady make feel like they're greeting their best friends or next door neighbors practically.

NEISLOSS: But I want to know what officials were dancing on the tables, come on. Christmas parties are infamous for this kind of stuff.

BASH: OK. Barney is as crazy as they get, OK. This is the Bush White House. No, it's very -- no, it's very stately. It's very -- it's very elegant. You knew they have the orchestra there laying. They have the photographers. They have the ushers. They have beautiful pastries.

HAYES: All so well orchestrated.

BASH: Very well orchestrated and organized. This isn't a dancing on the table, that's for you New Yorkers.

NEISLOSS: Come on.

HAYES: Well, you know, I got to have my picture -- I took my picture with Barney. I'll bring that in sometime to ON THE STORY.

BASH: There you go. Maybe it will make next year's video.

HAYES: Hey, you never know.

Stay with us folks, a lot more ON THE STORY coming up right after this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: A Senator from Maine led the fight to change the way the United States spies on the world and uses the information. What's her story? More when we return.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Senator Susan Collins what's her story? She's the architect of a landmark spy legislation that reorganizes the country's intelligence system. A Republican from Maine, Collins joined forces with Democratic Senator Joe Lieberman. The two lawmakers even used their Blackberrys to make last minute tweaks during a Kennedy Center event last week.

SEN. SUSAN COLLINS (R), MAINE: It is going to improve the quality of intelligence provided to our military and it will help to keep civilians safer here at home.

ANNOUNCER: With Senator Collins by his side, President Bush signed the bill into law yesterday. Collins has a long record of public service. She came to Capitol Hill after graduating from college and held several staff positions before winning her Senate seat in 1996.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Thanks so much to my colleagues for another great ON THE STORY. We'll be back January 1st with a special look back at the year and a look ahead.

Still ahead today, "PEOPLE IN THE NEWS" focusing this week on LL Cool J and Shania Twain.

Straight ahead on what's making news right now.

(NEWSBREAK)

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired December 18, 2004 - 10:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(NEWSBREAK)
KATHLEEN HAYES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Welcome to CNN's ON THE STORY where our journalists have the inside word on the stories we covered this week.

I'm Kathleen Hayes in Washington on the story this week of President Bush talking about dramatic second term changes in how we save, how we pay taxes.

LIZ NEISLOSS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Liz Neisloss in New York on the story of how the United Nations, it's insisting that it's prepared for elections, the upcoming elections in Iraq.

ALINA CHO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Alino Cho, also in New York, on the story of the Unabomber's brother and his fight against reinstating the death penalty.

CHRISTY FEIG, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: I'm Christy Feig on the story of new concerns at the end of the week over Celebrex, the usually popular arthritis painkiller.

DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: And, I'm Dana Bash on the continuing fallout over Bernie Kerik, the president's first choice to oversee homeland security and growing criticism of his Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.

Also coming up we'll talk about how this time of year can be hazardous to your health and how the White House team has the time and the inclination to put together a video about the president's dog.

E-mail us onthestory@cnn.com. Now straight to Kathleen and the economic summit.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm passionate on the subject because I want America to be the best place in the world for people to find work or to raise their family or to get good healthcare.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: President Bush at his economic summit on Wednesday where he made his pitch for changes in how we pay taxes, how we save for retirement, even how we view the legal system.

CHO: Kathleen, this is Alina in New York. This was part PR, part policy, so talk about the president's plan. I know you're great at boiling it down in English.

HAYES: Well, you know, Alina, I think it was interesting that this was a very carefully orchestrated event. This was not an opportunity for the voices of the opposition, the pro this, the against that to get together.

NEISLOSS: A lot of pro this.

HAYES: Well, exactly. You're right because against that was not there as you full well know. But the president, I just think it's interesting that he has so hammered down the point that he wants to reform Social Security. He's going to get it done.

On Wednesday, when he was there for an hour helping Don Evans, the outgoing commerce secretary, his buddy from Texas who is going back home, oversee the panel on tort reform. He was gently pounding the table. He says he's passionate. He said tort reform, runaway lawsuits are driving up the cost of healthcare, just one of the things that he says he's going to get done in the second term.

BASH: But the bottom line, Kathleen, that we learned this week is that we know very little about what the president actually wants to do on Social Security, right? We know three things as you know.

He mentioned over and over again that he wants to at least privatize some of Social Security and we know two things he doesn't want to do, increase payroll taxes and decrease benefits but that leaves a lot out there that we don't know, right?

HAYES: Don't you think that's smart because he knows that in order to get anything like this passed he's going to have to get the middle onboard with him. At some point he will have to engage the people who don't necessarily feel that we need to do anything but tinker with Social Security.

I think it was very interesting too, Dana, that he said, "I believe we shouldn't increase payroll taxes." It seems to me that maybe he's not ruling that out. He may oppose it but he didn't say "read my lips, no new taxes."

He also makes it very clear that he thinks, he's saying benefits will not be cut for people at or near retirement. Well, doesn't that leave open the door to eventually saying that younger workers are going to have to take some reduction in their benefits?

But the idea is if you start investing in these personal savings accounts, then you will be, people say you can beat the return you would have gotten on your government money and people will be willing to take some reduction of benefits because they can make it up with these personal accounts but this is going to be a huge debate.

FEIG: You know one of the things I've heard quite a bit is you often hear touching Social Security is political suicide. Is that the case here because he's awfully brave about this?

HAYES: You know what's interesting to me, I must admit to being kind of dense here because this also kind of snuck up on me. I thought how could he really be serious about it? It's such a big deal to get into.

But this "Wall Street Journal" poll this week was very interesting. There's only one in five people under the age of 65 who thinks their benefits are going to be there when they retire. More and more young people are worried. They're worried about their parents who retired. They're worried about their future retirement.

In fact, there was a young woman at this conference who was part of the Women's Coalition for Social Security Choice. I apologize to the coalition. I slightly bungled their name. But she said, "I'm concerned. I want these personal savings accounts. I want retirement, Social Security retirement for me and for my daughter."

So, I think there's a generational divide here and I think that's what the forces who support Bush's vision are going to be playing on.

NEISLOSS: Another area though, Kathleen, the Bush administration seems to have a very specific policy on is the weak dollar and that is supposed to fix the giant U.S. trade imbalance in their view but that doesn't seem to be working. What are you hearing?

HAYES: Well, of course, it's interesting. We know it's a strong dollar policy and this feels a little bit like Alice through the looking glass. They keep saying we favor a strong dollar but the markets can determine it. And, obviously, Liz, you're absolutely right.

The administration has condoned, allowed the dollar to slide because it could help fix the trade deficit but the link with this whole Bush vision for the second term is there's a big budget deficit.

He says he's going to cut it in half in five years. This week the head of the Congressional Budget Office, which is like the budget watchdog, who is even a Republican said, look, there's no way you can grow out of this deficit. We're going to have to look at certainly no more tax cuts and with Social Security, which could be a big part of this, he says we may have to raise taxes, cut benefits.

But he also put the finger on defense and how it's growing so fast and at some point in the near future the cost for defense is going to go past the cost of Social Security. There's a lot of strains in this budget and that's what's hurting the dollar.

CHO: Kathleen, the Fed, as you know, raised interest rates another quarter point this week. That's supposed to be a sign of economic growth but we have this weak dollar, so how does that happen? How do you reconcile that?

HAYES: Well, I think the markets, for one thing the markets have fully priced in this interest rate increase, Alina, from the Federal Reserve and what's really interesting right now and I know you got to bear with me for a minute, but the Fed only controls short-term interest rates.

The financial markets control long-term interest rates and long- term interest rates tend to move more with inflation and the inflation picture is still pretty tame. The word is, though, if the dollar keeps sliding, foreign investors, big institutional investors will say "I'm losing money by buying U.S. stocks and bonds because they're denominated in dollars." They might pull back from that.

Interesting that when the president was talking to Berlusconi, the Prime Minister of Italy, he addressed this and once again said, look, we know it's a problem but we are going to reduce the budget deficit.

BASH: Right because that they realize is a big issue obviously for world leaders but also for some of the president's fellow Republicans. Fiscal conservatives were really upset about this.

One thing I wanted to ask you going back to Social Security is a lot of Democrats are looking at this and saying the president is exaggerating the problem. It's not going to go broke until 2042, almost 40 years from now, so what's the deal? I mean you know the ins and outs of Social Security. Is there really a crisis?

HAYES: The system right now heads toward a point where it won't be solvent. You'll have to do something. Right now the amount of payroll taxes going in are more than the money being paid out but what's happening is there's fewer and fewer younger workers and more and more retired workers, so at some point that gets even.

At some point, there is just not enough people working to pay those payroll taxes and give the same level of benefits. By about mid-century, if we do nothing, it sounds like the worst that could happen is people would only be getting about 75 percent of their benefits.

But I think what's going to happen this year in this debate is it's not just going to be the numbers. It's going to be philosophy. It's going to be a sense of I want to own part of my tax money.

The people who support this, I don't think it's just the numbers. It's not just saving Social Security. It's a different view of government. Don't tax me as much. Let me keep it. Let me invest it and have control of it.

BASH: This obviously was the beginning of what the White House says is going to be a massive PR campaign and, of course, the economy is just part of the White House agenda.

The president started the week by honoring three men at the very heart of his Iraq policy. I'm back on that story right after this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Dana Bash is a CNN White House Correspondent. Previously, she was a Capitol Hill Producer for CNN. The National Press Foundation gave her its Dirksen Award in 2002 for distinguished reporting on Congress. She graduated cum laude from George Washington University.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: Today, this honor goes to three men who have played pivotal roles in great events and whose efforts have made our country more secure and advanced the cause of human liberty.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: President Bush on Tuesday, the great event, of course, the decision and the follow-through on invading Iraq, toppling Saddam Hussein and occupying the country. That Tuesday ceremony say Mr. Bush presenting the Presidential Medal of Freedom to former CIA Director George Tenet, former Iraq Administrator Paul Jerry Bremer, and retired General Tommy Franks.

We're back ON THE STORY. Welcome back.

FEIG: Now, Dana, I have a question about this. All three of those medals went to men who were involved in what many people say was the president's or is the president's biggest failure. How unusual is that?

BASH: Well, first of all, the White House would say, would argue that it's not the president's biggest failure and sort of thinking about this and watching this, it is indicative of the way the White House is looking at Iraq right now and is convinced itself and is trying to convince the world to look at it, which is the long view, which is that, you know, you might not agree with it and there might have been perhaps some mistakes in the initial planning and mistakes now.

But they are convinced that when you look at this 30 years from now, when you sort of look at history and perhaps look back on who the president gave these medals to that these people will look like they were prescient and that they helped create a democracy that didn't exist.

Now, obviously, history will be the judge of that but I have to say the funniest or sort of most telling way that this story was told this week of these three men getting this was, I think it was the "Washington Post."

It just sort of said flatly that these three men got it and then afterwards it said and past recipients include the Pope, Mother Teresa, Mr. Rogers and Rosa Parks, so I think that sort of said it all.

NEISLOSS: Well let's go, Dana, from that very pretty picture to a kind of an uglier picture with Bernie Kerik and that whole bumbling over the nomination for homeland security. He obviously wasn't exactly Mother Teresa and they are looking for somebody like (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

BASH: That's the understatement of the year.

NEISLOSS: So, what happened and are they now looking for a Mr. or Mrs. Squeaky Clean? Is that the thing they have to do?

BASH: Absolutely and, you know, look the history of this administration is that they almost always find Mr. or Ms. Squeaky Clean and that's why this is such -- this is an oops for any administration but it's, you know, a mega oops, if you will, for these guys because it just doesn't happen.

And, you know, look throughout the week leading up to when Bernie Kerik finally pulled his name out, you know, they said, look, we understand that there are some issues but we know about all those and there's no deal breaker here.

And then, of course, since then it's been remarkable but I think there's a combination of things. First of all, Bernie Kerik is somebody the president really liked. He campaigned with him. Of course, they had the 9/11 bond.

But also they relied on Rudy Giuliani, as we know, who has come out in the New York press and sort of had several mea culpas. But also I think that there was a sense that perhaps they were assuming that Bernie Kerik had already gone through the New York tabloid meat grinder and that if things were really that bad they wouldn't be deal breakers.

HAYES: But does this mean anything for Rudy Giuliani because he has become one of the bright and shiny stars of the Republican Party, maybe a contender for the president in 2008 but more and more unsavory things are coming out about Kerik.

There's more and more subpoenas and investigations being launched on various business dealings allegedly with some characters who broke the law. We don't know what's going to happen.

We know he had this really raunchy affairs with two women while he was married to one. I mean, please. This is one of Rudy Giuliani's top guys. Does any of this kind of wash on to Rudy Giuliani and (UNINTELLIGIBLE)?

BASH: Well, in a way Rudy Giuliani has sort of responded to this. You can tell that just from reading the things he's said that he's obviously worried that he came out and he had an interview with the "New York Times" almost immediately.

You know, he had a press conference saying mea culpa. It's my fault. He had dinner last Sunday night with the president. That was sort of made public that the two of them had dinner and that he apologized to the president.

Time will tell on that. I mean it's unclear but clearly Rudy Giuliani since 9/11 has been the ultimate shining star and, as the White House likes to say, America's mayor and this certainly at least in the short term seems to have tarnished it.

It also does beg the question, I should have mentioned before that a lot of people are asking is why is it that the White House did rely so much on this and they didn't have their own proper vetting process? And they're definitely taking their time a little bit more on this next pick for sure.

CHO: Dana, when you think about Rudy Giuliani, you think about America's mayor, 9/11. You know the president signed the 9/11 intelligence bill on Friday. Critics call him the Johnny-come-lately but you say he's still going to get credit.

BASH: Absolutely. You know, look at the Homeland Security Department. That is something that the president signed into law after initially saying "It's unnecessary. We don't need it."

Now, when he campaigned he talked about one of the greatest accomplishments of his first term was creating the Homeland Security Department. Now, whether or not he'll, you know, campaign on that and talk about that as this particular change in government, the first time the intelligence community has been reformed in 60 years as a major piece of his legacy we'll see.

But the bottom line is that when you look at the 9/11 Commission, the creation of that which essentially led to these reforms, he opposed that and he relented and then every step of the way while the 9/11 Commission was going on, there were definite skirmishes about how much access they could have and even he was a little bit reluctant to embrace the recommendations that were in this bill initially.

But now he supports it. Whether or not it was because he couldn't have a legislative failure before he starts a second term we'll never know the real reason for that but the bottom line is, you see there, he's signing it and that's what history will remember.

FEIG: Dana, let's jump to Rumsfeld for just a second. He certainly has come under a lot of fire this week in the past few days. What's going on there and is it even conceivable that in a war time the defense secretary could resign?

BASH: Look, it's conceivable but here's what White House officials say when you talk to them, essentially saying mostly the same thing in public as in private. But it's that in terms of the criticism, yes, it's Republican.

But there are Republicans and then there are Republicans meaning that there are -- the critics that have come out are Senator McCain, Senator Chuck Hagel and others who are known critics of Secretary Rumsfeld who are not shy about criticizing the administration.

And, at this point, they -- and, for example, Senator Trent Lott, I should say, somebody who is not exactly a fan of the administration at this point. They've had their problems.

At this point, the president is saying that he has his, Rumsfeld has his full support. That is why they put out two weeks ago, unlike other cabinet members, that he wants him to say, that he personally likes Secretary Rumsfeld.

But you sort of alluded to it, Christy. The bottom line is I actually got a White House official to admit this in a rare moment of candor that the political calculus is you can't fire Secretary Rumsfeld, who essentially embodies and personifies the Iraq War right now because it would be a tacit admission of defeat.

They don't want that right now. They certainly don't want that before what they hope will be the Iraqi elections at the end of January. So, we'll see what happens in the near future, definitely monitoring this, definitely they're waiting to see if other Republicans come out. They're trying to get top leaders to say that they support him. We'll see what happens.

NEISLOSS: He's absolutely an unpredictable guy. Do you have the feeling though that there is perhaps a little reining in or is that sort of an impossible situation with Rumsfeld? It's very hard to imagine.

BASH: Well, they admit, you know, Liz, they admit at the White House that he is who he is and that he is somebody who speaks with candor. Look, they do admit that he has some questions to answer and part of the reason why some of these Republican Senators, for example, like Susan Collins of Maine came out and wrote a letter, is she's angry because she says she's asked about the armor issue. She's asked about that and she's been told it's going to be fine. It's going to be fine. It's going to fine and obviously it's not. So, they say, look, he has some legitimate questions to answer but the president at this point supports him.

CHO: Well, Dana, from your beat at the White House to an emotional political issue playing out in the states, the death penalty. I talked to the man who turned in his own brother, the Unabomber, to federal authorities. He's now leading the charge against the death penalty. I'm back on that story after a break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID KACZYNSKI, BROTHER OF UNABOMBER TED KACZYNSKI: I'll tell you I do have the regrets I feel are from earlier in my life. I look back now and I wish for Ted's sake and for his victims' sake and for their families' sake that I had just maybe been a little bit better of a brother.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHO: "I wish I'd been a better brother," that from David Kaczynski. He turned in his own brother, Ted Kaczynski, you'll recall, when he realized he was the serial killer known as the Unabomber. Now that brother is working to keep New York from bringing back the death penalty.

Welcome back. We're ON THE STORY. HAYES: You know, Alina, this is such a fascinating story. It's one that just suddenly pulls us back in time. How did you link up with him? What led you down this path to look into his life and see where he is now?

CHO: Well really, Kathleen, we looked at the issue of New York considering reinstating the death penalty and we thought of him immediately. I mean who could forget those images of Ted Kaczynski being pulled out of his Montana cabin by FBI agents.

And what happened was David Kaczynski, the brother who turned him in, had worked with the FBI for many, many months in 1995. Implicitly he thought that FBI agents were telling him, listen, your brother is sick. We're not going to seek the death penalty. They didn't explicitly say that but they said, listen, you know, he'll get a lot of help, a lot of treatment for his mental illness in prison.

And, as David Kaczynski says his relationship with the FBI ended the day Ted was arrested because immediately the government decided to seek the death penalty and he believes the only reason why his brother's life was spared was because he had very good lawyers and a lot of media attention surrounding the case.

FEIG: You know, Alina, this must have been an absolutely fascinating interview to do. I mean what was he like as a person and does he have any regrets turning his brother in?

CHO: Well, I can tell you that they called him Mr. Rogers during his days as a social worker, you know, very soft-spoken, really, really friendly guy. You know we talked to him for nearly an hour and I could have talked to him all day.

I mean he was recounting all of these childhood stories. You know the two brothers were very, very close growing up. David was the younger brother by seven years but they were very close to the point where Ted actually had nightmares about not being able to help his brother.

And, you know, the two shared interests including, interestingly enough, a love of wilderness, a love of sports. He told this great story about David tried to convince Ted to join a softball league and one day Ted got seven hits in a row. He was the star of the team and everyone was high-fiving (ph) him.

And David said, you know, "I felt so great that day because Ted was such a loner, a lonely person and he really didn't have any friends" and that was sort of his one shining moment that he recalls.

NEISLOSS: So, Alina, they were close. They have these wonderful stories growing up. Did you get the feeling though that David had any idea, saw anything coming in his brother, any, you know, you would think the strange behavior that he would have had clues early on? What did he tell you about that?

CHO: Well, as you heard him say earlier there were regrets that he feels are from earlier on in his life. You know, he really didn't -- I think he always knew that his brother was a bit odd, a bit strange but, you know, he was his brother and was still very close to him.

It wasn't really until his wife, Linda, suggested to him, listen, you know, your brother might be the Unabomber and imagine hearing that. And so then, the manifesto was published and David took pains to read all 35,000 words and it was only then that he realized that there were certain phrases that actually matched up with letters that Ted had sent him over the years.

For instance, Ted referred to philosophers as cool-headed logicians and that was actually in one letter that David had received. And so, he called the FBI in 1995 and you can imagine, he said, you know, "At the time it was not easy to turn in the Unabomber. I mean what was I going to say? I was hearing my brother's voice in the manifesto." But eventually over time they developed a relationship and, of course, as you know, Ted was caught in 1996.

BASH: Alina, I want to ask about another story that you worked on this week, fascinating. You call it extreme commuting. You said that you were with somebody who actually traveled five hours a day to get to work.

CHO: Dana, it's unbelievable, yes.

BASH: Especially (UNINTELLIGIBLE) it takes me seven minutes that is.

CHO: We actually -- we actually did the commute. We did the commute with this woman. Her name is Shelly Giblin (ph). She lives in the Poconos in Pennsylvania. Here's a rundown of her day.

She wakes up at 4:00 in the morning. She's in the car, I don't know if you caught that but she's actually eating breakfast while she drives to the park and ride. That's a ten-minute drive.

Then she gets on a bus, two hours, where there is a no talking rule on the bus, so everyone sleeps. You can imagine. She gets on the bus at 5:00 in the morning. Everybody wants to sleep.

Then, you see her there. It's not even light out and she is walking to work. She gets off the bus in the city after a two-hour ride, walks 20 minutes in the freezing cold to her office. We actually did this trek with her.

Why does she do it? Well, it's about owning a piece of the American dream. I mean this is about owning a home and some people call it driving until you qualify and that's exactly what she and her husband did.

I mean this is a couple. They've been married 22 years. They're in their 50s and they bought their first home nine years ago for $150,000 and that's what they could afford and this is where they could afford it.

HAYES: This is one of the reasons I love the story. This is an economic story, Alina, please. This is -- because home prices have gone up so much and the closer you are to an urban center the more out of reach they are for many people. But because I go out to the Poconos a lot, I've ridden that bus in actually.

I know there's a surprising number of people doing this because the home prices are up and the wages I guess you could say haven't kept up for many middle class people to buy the kind of home they want to have.

CHO: You know, and it's true that this is a trend. I mean, you know, extreme commuters make up one of the fastest-growing segments of commuters. This is clearly part of, you know, the baby boomers joining the labor force and also women joining the labor force in substantial numbers.

You know, interestingly enough this is also a function of technology, you know. Cell phones and laptops have really made it easier for people to say, get in a car and get some work done on the phone or get on a train and do some work on the laptop.

So, also I should mention, as my esteemed producer has just told me, we should mention the full report will be on "AMERICAN MORNING" on Monday morning from 7:00 to 10:00 a.m., so you won't want to miss that report you guys.

FEIG: I understand why they do it but I'm still not sure I could do a five-hour commute.

CHO: Right.

FEIG: So, we go from the extremes of commuting to questions about a popular painkiller and why the medical experts are warning that we are coming up to some of the most dangerous days of the year. I'm back on that story in a moment.

HAYES: Also coming up ON THE STORY, a new look at the flu vaccine shortage. Did those federal guidelines mean having flu shots left over in this country?

And, Kofi comes calling, the United Nations Secretary-General is in Washington this week saying preparations for Iraq elections are on time and on track.

Stay with us ON THE STORY.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. MARIE GRIFFIN, VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY MEDICAL CENTER: From my standpoint there could be additional studies done but until there are additional studies I don't think it's warranted for most people to take the risk.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FEIG: Dr. Marie Griffin of Vanderbilt University Medical Center saying for most of us Celebrex, a hugely popular painkiller may not be worth the possible risk. The manufacturer, Pfizer, said yesterday that a long-term cancer study showed Celebrex increased cardiovascular risk but Pfizer is still selling it, while promising immediate steps to understand the new research.

Welcome back. We're ON THE STORY.

NEISLOSS: This does not seem to be the first time we're hearing this kind of story. It seems almost every week, every few weeks there's another drug that suddenly gets pulled off the market. So, what's happening? What's happening with the process?

FEIG: That's exactly right and it's certainly fueled that issue. This added fuel to that fire big time. Think of it this way. The FDA has two missions. Half of it approves drugs. The other half monitors drugs that have been approved.

And it's growing a criticism. The group keeps getting bigger and bigger every time one of these happens and why do we have the same group that's approving them, monitoring their safety because it's going to be like one side says "Oh this is good" and then four years later they have to say "Oops, we made a mistake."

So, there's growing criticism that's coming out that says, you know, maybe we need to have an independent group that monitors these drugs once they get on the market.

There was a very interesting sound byte that came in yesterday from that group and it basically said the watchdogs are drugged. Now the FDA on their side will say, look, you know, we're doing as much as we can here.

But these large scale clinical trials, the ones that are done just before FDA approval, are done in thousands of patients and basically you're not going to know what some of these side effects are going to be until millions start coming in and that's when it gets on the market.

BASH: Twenty-three million or so people take Celebrex. OK, so they haven't taken it off the market. What does this mean to people who are -- who have Celebrex in their medicine cabinet? Should they take it or not take it?

FEIG: Well, that's the big question here. I mean after Vioxx, Celebrex' maker was out there saying, look, Celebrex is safe. Celebrex is safe. We have no studies that show something like this. Then this comes up. What should consumers do?

The FDA was saying yesterday, look, we're still reviewing this but in the meantime go talk to your doctors and they're actually recommending that doctors start going back to some of the old drugs, remember the aspirins, the ibuprofens, the naproxens, things that are available over the counter. They're saying we should go back to those for right now until we sort this out.

HAYES: Great for consumers but investors and the people who run the drug companies are not happy. This is a blockbuster drug. Vioxx was a blockbuster drug. Merck got hammered. Pfizer got hammered on this.

Now, like you said, they're not taking it off the market yet and there are some questions about that study that was done that had the bad results was actually trying to figure out a link between cancer and if Celebrex could stop tumors from growing.

So, they say it wasn't a fair study but you just kind of wonder if a lot of these drug companies are going to find that in particular these Cox-2 inhibitors are just something that made them tons of money for a while but from here on out aren't going to do the same.

FEIG: That's exactly right. Celebrex, actually, is looking at making up about ten percent of Pfizer's revenue, so it's a big chunk of their money. There were two studies, just to refresh you. There were two studies that came in yesterday.

One was from the National Institutes of Health. That was the cancer study. They looked at 400mg and 800mg. They found problems in both of those but, as you said, it was a cancer prevention trial basically.

The other one was a Pfizer study that came in yesterday also and it showed no problems, so that's one of the reasons that Pfizer is saying, hey look, this is just one study. We have many studies that show there is no problems here. This could just be something.

But then again, a lot of these studies that are done by the pharmaceutical companies, people are saying, well wait. Don't they have a vested interest here? Wouldn't they maybe skew the results, make the drug look favorable to them?

CHO: Christy, let's talk a little bit about what I like to call the flu shot flap. First there weren't enough. Now there are too many. I mean what is your advice now to people who are thinking about getting the flu shot? I always think of early in the season and then if you miss the boat you shouldn't get it but you're saying no. I mean actually you can get it now and there's plenty available, right?

FEIG: There's no other way I can say this other than that it's human nature. When there is nothing and we have a big shortage, people are going to line up and demand it. When we have an abundance of something, people are pretty much going to say, people are pretty much going to say, oh I don't want it. We don't need it. It breeds complacency.

BASH: But isn't that why it is available because people thought there was a shortage?

FEIG: That's exactly right. That is the key here. Basically, about half the people who were considered that high risk category never even bothered to go out and try to get the vaccine because they thought it was completely impossible. They didn't think they'd even get it. So now, the CDC, an advisory committee yesterday looked at this and they're recommending that the CDC actually change their recommendations. Remember, before they were saying high risk people only, 65 and older, you know, kids between six months and 23 months, pregnant women.

Now they're saying everyone 50 and older should probably try to get the flu vaccine. So now they're going to broaden that a little bit because, remember, what isn't used this year is thrown away.

NEISLOSS: Well, we have the flu season but we also have the holiday season, which always seems to have an interesting medical story. We've all heard over they years depression and the holidays are always linked. But you covered another story, another medical story about the holidays.

FEIG: Yes. This one, every once in a blue moon covering this beat there's a study that comes across my desk that makes me go, you got to be kidding me. This was one of those studies.

The study says that, yes, we've known that deaths are higher during the winter season. We've just known this. But this study actually said, and they looked at 53 million people. This was a huge study, over 26 years. They said there's actually more deaths on Christmas Day, the day after and New Year's Day than any other day of the year.

HAYES: Why?

BASH: Yes, why?

HAYES: (UNINTELLIGIBLE.)

FEIG: That's right. No, they say that during the holidays people actually delay going to the doctor. They actually wait and don't go because, you know, family is coming in. Stress is going on. They're traveling, what have you, so they don't go to the doctor.

But there's another catch here. They say actually during your holidays your health facilities aren't as well staffed. Think about it. We go skeletal. People go on vacation. You've got your people who haven't been there as long running it.

And remember the Institute of Medicine report that said it's mainly what between 50,000 and 98,000 deaths every year from medical errors, so they say that actually may be contributing here as well.

BASH: That's scary.

HAYES: That's scary.

NEISLOSS: Well, Christy -- Christy from the medical to the diplomatic beat, sounds sort of like a big jump but not too big. The Secretary- General of the United Nations Kofi Annan went to the home base of some of his harshest critics this week. Mr. Annan went to Washington and I'm on that story after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KOFI ANNAN, U.N. SECRETARY-GENERAL: It's not a question of numbers. It's a question of what you need to get the job done and are we doing the job? Yes, we are doing the job.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NEISLOSS: The job helping set up Iraq's elections. That was Kofi Annan, United Nations Secretary-General in Washington Thursday saying despite pressure from Washington and Baghdad, the U.N. is doing what needs to be done for those elections.

Welcome back. We're ON THE STORY.

BASH: And, Liz, you obviously heard there him saying that it's not the numbers but the White House does want the U.N. to send more than the 25 election monitors that they're sending now to Iraq and essentially we're told and he was asked point blank when he came to the White House, when he was at the State Department. What's your sense? Is there any kind of movement there from the U.N. that they're going to help out a little bit more?

NEISLOSS: There really isn't a sense that they will change on the numbers but the U.N. actually gets very testy when you talk to officials about doing more because they feel they have a little bit of a perception problem.

The U.N. was asked to help set up elections. They have to help set up polling places and train polling workers, election workers. They've been training a lot of people, 6,000 election workers outside of Iraq, doing sort of round robins where Iraqis go into Iraq and train other Iraqis. This is all because of security constraints for the U.N.

So, from the U.N. side they are doing what they're supposed to do and one U.N. official said to me, look, we could put thousands more people on the ground but that wouldn't change things. We are doing our job and we're getting it done but still there is pressure.

There's a lot of pressure from the U.S. and from the Iraqi side. The Iraqis want a show of support from the U.N. and they think to a certain extent it will give them a little more credibility for their elections, for the interim government elections now to have the U.N. more present.

CHO: Liz, let's switch gears and talk a little bit about Oil for Food, a story that's been getting a lot of attention lately. You've been covering the U.N. for eight years I know. What -- I know you see Kofi Annan a lot. He's sort of seen as this pillar of strength but he's only human. How do you think that he is weathering this storm?

NEISLOSS: Well, he is someone who presents a pretty even, steady face in public. Privately you hear those who are around him say that he has been a little bit depressed. You can imagine this would have to get to him. Oil for Food not only is really attacking his organization, the organization that he's the head of, the whole scandal, all the calls from Washington for him to resign.

But it's also obviously hit close to home because his own son, Kojo Annan, is now being accused of perhaps not directly being involved in the Oil for Food problems but having used his contacts with a company that was dealing with Oil for Food, a company called Kotechna (ph) which did have a big job vetting goods going into Iraq for Oil for Food.

Kojo Annan worked for Kotechna. He, according to Kojo Annan and according to the U.N. and Kotechna, he did not -- he was not involved in Oil for Food but there are documents. Congressional investigators are floating around documents that show interesting hotel bills and phone records and travel itineraries that suggest that Kojo Anna may have been using his influence in improper ways.

But I have to tell you that this week for the first time we did hear -- CNN did really get a statement from Kojo Annan, who has not been talking about the situation.

Kofi Annan has been a little surprised at some of the links that perhaps might have been revealed. But Kojo Annan said this is really a witch hunt, that this is a Republican effort to try to derail his father and that all of this will be proven false.

FEIG: You know, Liz, I'm wondering about something here. I know no one is accusing Annan himself of being on the take here but I'm wondering is this weakening him at all as far as his son being involved?

I mean if you think about it like a big business, a lot of times the head of the big business has to, you know, step down or resign in an accusation even though he's innocent because the allegations themselves are enough to damage the reputation of the company. And I'm wondering if we're going to see something like that here?

NEISLOSS: Well, this is a situation where you have a lot of calls about Annan's responsibility, potential responsibility, calls for his resignation. This is very much what we saw last week. There were U.S. editorials. There were certain congressional officials who were calling for Annan to resign.

The U.N. would very much like to position this as last week's story but you saw when he went to Washington. You know and I know very well the U.N. thinks very carefully about what meetings they're going to have, who Annan will be standing next to, what kind of support he'll be having. He now has a very clear international support after these calls for resignation that...

HAYES: Liz, I'd like to ask you a quick final question here.

NEISLOSS: Sure.

HAYES: Because I just want to follow on the point you're going because I think there are defenders who say this is king of a hypocritical way to try to undermine not just Kofi Annan but the U.N. by people who have been really trying to undermine it for a long time because this Oil for Food scandal, people knew for years scheming was going on and that there's a lot of politics being played here.

NEISLOSS: There certainly is. I have heard from many people that when you knock the U.N. it is an easy applause line. It's political red meat for those Republicans, conservatives, who have never really liked the U.N.

There are a lot of very legitimate questions. There is a lot of sense that there does need to be reform at the U.N. But when you talk to the experts, the oil experts, when you talk to the diplomatic officials who know Oil for Food, which was hugely complicated inside and out, they will say governments knew what was going on. Most of this was not something that should have taken anyone, including the U.S. government, by surprise.

HAYES: OK. It's a complicated story.

But, you know, after a complicated story, you know, sometimes you got to sit back and relax and we're going to talk now how does the Bush administration relax after a hard day of Iraq and other challenges? Well, it's on a Christmas video starring first dog Barney. Dana is back on this story right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: Barney, I know you wanted to be in my cabinet but I've already given you an important job. Your job is to take care of Ms. Beasley (ph).

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: The latest Barney video. Of course, we can't live without our annual Christmas Barney video. The White House really gets a kick out of putting him in these shots. It's on the website. People can click on it. And, of course, Barney has his own homepage on the White House website for anybody who wants to check it out.

HAYES: He's a cute little dog. You know, this kind of, you know, President Bush is a very humorous guy. Is he looking for his next job? Is he going to unseat Jay Leno when he leaves the White House in a few years?

BASH: I wouldn't hold my breath on that one, nor others perhaps who are in this video. I think maybe probably I'll get in trouble for saying this but some acting lessons would be in order for a Christmas present for next year's video.

But, look, they like doing this. They love Barney. It's sort of become their thing, their shtick. They obviously have this now. They did a Barney video, you remember, during the Republican Convention.

It sort of allows them to show their light side that they're not all buttoned up and businesslike and it's not, you know, the serious Bush White House which, of course, as they're reputed to be. So, it's sort of a fun holiday thing. FEIG (?): Dana and Kathleen, I know this was also an opportunity for the White House to show off the decorations. I mean those Christmas decorations are absolutely beautiful. Somehow my invitation got lost in the mail but you two seemed to make it to the White House Christmas party. What was that like?

HAYES: That's the first time I ever went to the Christmas party. To me just being inside the White House is absolutely thrilling because it is so beautiful. You know, standing next to a portrait of a president, FDR, Chester Arthur, whoever, and the beautiful old, American artwork, the delicious eggnog. I mean it was a fabulous event.

BASH: I mean, of course, there's nothing more beautiful than the White House during the holiday season. They had it all decorated in like a sort of a winter wonderland and it was really beautiful. You can walk through the rooms and see all of the history.

But the other really, the thing that I thought about the entire time and I've sort of been thinking about it over the past couple of weeks is that the President and Mrs. Bush have two and a half weeks of two of these parties a night. That means 6,500 people they have to shake hands with, smile with, chit-chat with.

HAYES: And they are so wonderful to every person.

BASH: It's torture. I think it's torture.

HAYES: You know, with the people coming up, each one, President Bush and the first lady make feel like they're greeting their best friends or next door neighbors practically.

NEISLOSS: But I want to know what officials were dancing on the tables, come on. Christmas parties are infamous for this kind of stuff.

BASH: OK. Barney is as crazy as they get, OK. This is the Bush White House. No, it's very -- no, it's very stately. It's very -- it's very elegant. You knew they have the orchestra there laying. They have the photographers. They have the ushers. They have beautiful pastries.

HAYES: All so well orchestrated.

BASH: Very well orchestrated and organized. This isn't a dancing on the table, that's for you New Yorkers.

NEISLOSS: Come on.

HAYES: Well, you know, I got to have my picture -- I took my picture with Barney. I'll bring that in sometime to ON THE STORY.

BASH: There you go. Maybe it will make next year's video.

HAYES: Hey, you never know.

Stay with us folks, a lot more ON THE STORY coming up right after this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: A Senator from Maine led the fight to change the way the United States spies on the world and uses the information. What's her story? More when we return.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Senator Susan Collins what's her story? She's the architect of a landmark spy legislation that reorganizes the country's intelligence system. A Republican from Maine, Collins joined forces with Democratic Senator Joe Lieberman. The two lawmakers even used their Blackberrys to make last minute tweaks during a Kennedy Center event last week.

SEN. SUSAN COLLINS (R), MAINE: It is going to improve the quality of intelligence provided to our military and it will help to keep civilians safer here at home.

ANNOUNCER: With Senator Collins by his side, President Bush signed the bill into law yesterday. Collins has a long record of public service. She came to Capitol Hill after graduating from college and held several staff positions before winning her Senate seat in 1996.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Thanks so much to my colleagues for another great ON THE STORY. We'll be back January 1st with a special look back at the year and a look ahead.

Still ahead today, "PEOPLE IN THE NEWS" focusing this week on LL Cool J and Shania Twain.

Straight ahead on what's making news right now.

(NEWSBREAK)

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