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On the Story
Wars in Iraq, Afghanistan Drive Military Recruitment Figures Down; Bush Arrives in Moscow to Celebrate VE Day
Aired May 08, 2005 - 10:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Welcome to CNN's ON THE STORY, where our journalist have the inside word on the stories we covered this week. I'm Barbara Starr, on the story of how the fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan makes it harder back home to recruit new troops.
JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Jill Dougherty in Moscow on the story as President Bush arrives here to celebrate the allied World War II victory in Europe 60 years ago.
KATHY SLOBOGIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Kathy Slobogin on the story of No Child Left Behind and how the accountability movement in our schools may be creating pressure for teachers to cheat.
KATHLEEN HAYS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Kathleen Hays on the story of more jobs, higher interest rates, but lower consumer confidence.
Also coming up, Mary Snow talks about the injured Buffalo, New York firefighter who regained the ability to speak after nine-and-a- half years. "Time" magazine's Viveca Novak joins us on the story about her new book, "Inside the Wire," about terror suspects held at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
At the end of our hour, our "What's Her Story?" segment looks at Muhammad Ali's daughter, Rasheda. So e-mail us at onthestory@cnn.com.
Now, straight ahead to Jill Dougherty and victory in Europe 60 years ago.
DOUGHERTY: The red flags are on the march in Moscow. The bands are tuning up as this whole part of the world gets ready to celebrate the 60th anniversary of the end of World War II in Europe. President Bush has already arrived, and a little bit later he will be sitting down, meeting with President Vladimir Putin. They will be celebrating a joint victory in 1945, but they have got a lot of tough questions about this relationship in 2005.
STARR: And, Jill, as President Bush arrives in Moscow today, a lot of history, a lot of celebration, but there is a big political undercurrent right now. What is going to shape up later today on that front?
DOUGHERTY: You know, it's all geared to this -- you would have to say the basis of the foreign policy of President Bush right now, which is the spread of democracy. And specifically, look at the trip that he has. He's coming via Latvia. That is in the Baltics, it's an area that feels that, well, World War II, we may have been helped by the Russians, but we were then subjugated by the Soviet Union. It's a very delicate thing 60 years later. The tensions and the feelings about this are still very strong.
HAYS: What is the feeling, though, within the country? Do the people support President Putin, who has called the break-up of the Soviet Union the greatest geopolitical catastrophe in history? Do they want to go back to the old days of a strong central government, even a dictator? Or are they at odds with their president?
DOUGHERTY: Well, you know, when you look at May 9th, you have to remember that this is really the biggest celebration in Russia. It is extremely important to Russians. It's very emotional. Many, many people, almost every single Russian family was touched by World War II. You even had this afternoon President Putin himself -- he doesn't talk about that that much, but he was talking about his own family. They lost half of their relatives. His grandmother was killed. His own parents, his mother and father, had a little baby, a little boy, who was born just before President Putin. President Putin was born in '52. And that little boy died during the war.
So this is a very important, emotional connection for Russians.
It's not to say that they necessarily think that, you know, Stalin was good -- although there are people who do believe that. But they believe that Russia paid for with the blood of its people, 27 million of them, the price for freedom and freedom from the Nazis.
SLOBOGIN: Jill, what about the tension that's been alluded to between Bush and Putin on the question of democracy and how free a society Russia is going to be. Is there anticipation in Russia that there's going to be some push-back on that?
DOUGHERTY: Well, you can say that this has been coming up a lot in recent time. Remember, just a couple of months ago, when we were in Bratislava, and you had that news conference, really tense, with President Bush and President Putin talking about these very same issues. They've discussed them a lot. And President Putin is pushing back. He is saying, look, we have democracy. We are moving in the direction that the West wants us to move in. But don't push us. We have our own type of democracy. And he's even made some really sensitive comments about the election in the United States that put George Bush back into office for another four years.
STARR: Now, Jill, you know, you talk about the feeling of the Russian people. It's a very emotional event today that's unfolding, the end of World War II. What's the mood on the street? Are we seeing in Moscow, in the cities across Russia, this feeling, this very deep emotion about the end of World War II?
DOUGHERTY: You know, there's not a lot that Russians can really celebrate. Their country fell apart. The Soviet Union fell apart. They are no longer a super power. A lot of people lost all the money they had in all of the currency and the problems with the economy. World War II and what they accomplished in World War II is something that can really give them purpose and meaning. You know, there was a Russian priest who said, it's an icon of unity for the Russian people. So it almost transcends political ideology. It is something where they feel that they united and did the impossible, and that they will never give up. And it makes them happy and sad at the same time.
HAYS: What about President Bush wanting President Putin to help him with North Korea, with Iran, with the nuclear question there? On the other hand, as you mentioned at the outset, visiting countries like Latvia and Georgia, supporting democracy movements around Russia? How do the Russian people respond to that? Do they feel that the U.S. is trying to undercut their role in that region?
DOUGHERTY: Some do, some don't. But you would have to say that this is really a very delicate operation here that President Bush is trying to carry out. And certainly, the Russians feel that the United States has been horning in on its territory. So in a lot of this, you are getting quite a bit of defensiveness on the part of the Russians.
Look at Ukraine. Ukraine, Kyrgyzstan, Georgia before that -- that's all Soviet territory. And certainly President Putin feels that the U.S. is actually trying to push these revolutions, as he would call it. He doesn't call it democracy; he calls it revolution.
SLOBOGIN: You know, Jill, I think it's surprising for a lot of people in the West on the 60th anniversary, when we think of Soviet post-war occupation of Eastern Europe, we think of tyranny, we think of repression. The Russians, do they see it differently? Is there a disconnect there?
DOUGHERTY: I think you would have to say that among a lot of Russians, again, they feel that they paid for the victory with their blood. And they also feel that it was the Soviet Union that did a lot of the things, let's say, in the Baltics that diminished the freedom of those people, and certainly some would argue enslave those people.
But they say Russia is a different country. It's Russia, it is not the Soviet Union. So a lot of people would really divide those two things, and they don't feel responsible, oddly enough, for what happened let's say in the Baltics.
STARR: Well, Jill, I know you're going to stay with us. We're going to chat more. Terrorism and the war in Iraq will be big topics when the allies meet in Moscow today and tomorrow. I'm back on the search for the number one terrorist in Iraq in a moment.
ANNOUNCER: Barbara Starr, CNN's Pentagon correspondent. She worked for NBC News and "Business Week." She is a former Washington bureau chief of "Jane's Defense Weekly."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) NASIR AL-ABADI, DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF, IRAQI ARMY: I think sooner or later, we're going to catch him. He's bound to make a mistake. And information will come to us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
STARR: Lieutenant General Nasir Al-Abadi, deputy chief of staff of the Iraqi army, saying sooner or later they will capture terrorist mastermind Abu Musab al Zarqawi. This comes as a new wave of deadly insurgent attacks broke over Iraq, including suicide attacks and mass executions.
Welcome back. I'm Barbara Starr. We're ON THE STORY.
DOUGHERTY: So Barbara, what is the latest on the level of violence in Iraq?
STARR: Jill, it gets worse by the day. One indication this morning, we had an official in the U.S. military confirm to CNN this morning that in the last nine days, they estimate 300 Iraqis, 300 Iraqis have been killed.
Now, violence is down. The deaths of American soldiers are down. That is good news. But by any measure, the violence against Iraqis is still going up right now. Very difficult situation. This comes as the Pentagon continues to say this wave of insurgent attacks can't be sustained. The insurgents can't keep it up. They will diminish, et cetera, but a measure this morning that's really quite grim.
SLOBOGIN: Barbara, the man that's reported to be the mastermind behind a lot of these attacks, Zarqawi, there's been stories of near misses lately. What indications do we have of exactly how near these misses have been?
STARR: Well, the one that we know about the most was February 20th, near Ramadi and Khadifa (ph), when U.S. forces came very close to capturing him, apparently. He escaped at the last minute. But they did get his driver.
Now, overnight, the U.S. military has put out a statement about all of this, and it's quite an astounding press release that the military has put out, because I want to show everybody something that the press release, very important, said. They quoted the driver that they got as saying this about Zarqawi near miss. Quote, "Zarqawi became hysterical. Zarqawi did not know where he was, because he demanded repeatedly, 'who lives in this area? What sub-tribe is here'?" That's Abu Usama, Zarqawi's driver, talking about what happened February 20th when Zarqawi came close to being caught and that Zarqawi was hysterical.
We have never had the U.S. military give us direct quotes from detainee interrogations. That's always been intelligence.
HAYS: So what does this mean, though? Cut through the spin, because we know Washington likes to spin. You tell me 300 deaths. You tell me the Pentagon says it's getting better, and that now they are taking this unprecedented step of releasing the kind of information they have it. What is really going on here, Barbara? Are they panicked because this is getting worse, or is there some progress that we don't see when all we see are these reports of deaths?
STARR: Clearly, there is political progress, and that is, many people believe, the ultimate solution for Iraq's future -- a stable, political government. That is a long way off. They are making steps in that direction.
On Zarqawi, what our sources tell us this morning is this extraordinary statement was put out because they want to demonstrate to the world that Zarqawi is not, quote, "10 feet tall." He, too, can become hysterical.
Whether that's true or not, we have no idea. At the same time, there is no question that at least right now, the violence, the attacks against Iraqis are on the rise. That is something the U.S. is very concerned about, because it may undermine this political stability.
So, it's a complex situation. Iraq always continues to be a complex situation. No easy answers.
DOUGHERTY: So what about that recent arrest by the Pakistanis of an al Qaeda figure? Isn't that progress?
STARR: Well, that certainly is progress. Again, Jill, you are absolutely right. Against the al Qaeda, against the broader war on terrorism. This is, shall we say, Mr. Al-Libbi, the purported, alleged number three in the al Qaeda organization, picked up by Pakistani forces in the city of Mardan. You see, he doesn't look like he's in really good shape. A lot of people making comments, you know, the number three position in al Qaeda seems to have tenuous job security. There's been an awful lot of number threes. They are getting picked up.
The real question is this -- as you pick up people like Al-Libbi, is bin laden now having to rely on a second tier around him, people he's less secure about, people he knows less about, somebody who someday may rat him out.
HAYS: And, Barbara, there's a real cost being out of this sense of progress, maybe not enough progress. The violence continuing because, you know, it's keeping apparently the U.S. military from signing on new recruits. Barbara, you went to Brooklyn, New York this week to talk to some kids on the street. Let's look at part of your report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
STARR (voice-over): For 19-year-old Roman Hernandez, the Army is an option. But he is worried. What about the war in Iraq?
ROMAN HERNANDEZ: I might get deployed over there. I might not come back, I mean, how many people have you lost already. STARR: For the third month in a row, the Army has failed to meet its recruiting goal. If Iraq is the major issue for young people, recruiters know their parents must also be convinced.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The biggest thing I hear is just simply that they don't want -- they don't support the war and they don't want their children to fight in this war, period. That is cut and dry. There's no other reason. That's all they say.
STARR: One potential solution, a new series of intimate television commercials.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're a changed man.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How's that?
STARR: Madison Avenue trying to persuade parents to understand, joining the Army is a good idea.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You shook my hand. Then you looked me square in the eye. Where did that come from?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
STARR: Of course, many young people across America continuing to sign up to serve their country, but many young people continuing to ask questions about it all.
HAYS: That's a many-headed hydra, as you said, a complicated story.
Something a little less complicated we want to mention. Jill Dougherty has been CNN's rock in Russia since 1997 as the bureau chief in Moscow, heading now to be the head of the Asia Pacific operations in Hong Kong. Jill, what do you have to tell us, your best memory or your brightest hope as you look ahead?
DOUGHERTY: I think it's the brightest hope, really, would be, you know, I've been coming -- I've been here as a bureau chief for eight years, and I've been coming to this country since I was in college. And now I get -- and being in China, I get to see another piece of the puzzle, you know, how China will adapt to the 21st century. And no matter what it does, it's going to have a major, major effect on the world.
HAYS: Well, Jill, thank you so much for all your work in Moscow. We look forward to having you ON THE STORY in your new role.
New developments this week in the prisoner abuse scandal, and continuing questions about how the U.S. keeps terrorism suspects at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. Up next, we're back on the story with "Time" magazine's Viveca Novak, and her new book, "Inside the Wire," about life inside Guantanamo.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) STARR: "Inside the Wire" is the title of the new book about the camp in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba where the United States detained suspected terrorists and enemy combatants. "Time" magazine's Washington correspondent Viveca Novak wrote the book with Erik Saar, who served at Guantanamo as a translator and military intelligence specialist. Viveca is with us.
Viveca, what surprised you the most about what goes on inside that wire?
VIVECA NOVAK, TIME MAGAZINE: I think, you know, hearing about the interrogation techniques that were used, which were, you know, Erik thinks that they were certainly in violation of the Geneva Conventions, which the president said, of course, they didn't apply in Guantanamo anyway. But Erik expected, I think, to see detainees treated within, you know, the sort of spirit of the Geneva Conventions.
And also I think he was surprised, you know, and I was surprised hearing it from him that, you know, this was not a very sophisticated intelligence-gathering military operation. It was not what he believed he would see when he volunteered to go down there.
HAYS: So tell us more about your co-author. How he got involved at Guantanamo, how you met him, and what his role was in putting this book together.
NOVAK: Well, Erik -- he's from a small town in Pennsylvania. Grew up in a conservative and a very religious family. And he signed up for the military after college. Got trained as an Arabic linguist and in military intelligence, and then 9/11 happened just about the time he had gotten his training.
So he was perfectly positioned to help in the war on terror. And really, that's all he wanted to do. He was very gung-ho about it. And he worked with the FBI near ground zero right after 9/11. And then he worked at the National Security Agency here in Washington after that, and then his command asked for volunteers to go to Gitmo. And he was very eager to do it. He was very eager to do go down there and do everything he could to fight the war on terror. And he was there for six-and-a-half months.
And in that time, what he saw caused him to believe that what we're doing is not just morally wrong, but strategically a mistake. And he came back, you know, feeling like this was something important that he wanted to write about.
SLOBOGIN: You know, Viveca, reports like this and certainly Abu Ghraib have given the United States a black eye in terms of public relations around the world. Are the intelligence gains that are coming out of this compensating for that in any way, from what you know?
NOVAK: Well, Erik certainly thinks that the intelligence, what little intelligence we're getting out of Guantanamo, is not worth the price we're paying in world opinion. And he says that very little worthwhile intelligence has come out of Guantanamo which is, of course, different from what the Pentagon says.
STARR: Now, these interrogation techniques that he writes about and you write about in the book and what we have heard, some of them would probably be -- some of these accounts would be fairly astounding to most Americans. Tell us a little bit more about some of these controversial interrogation techniques.
NOVAK: Well, I think the ones that sort of put him over the top in terms of his feelings about the place involved trying to break the bond between a detainee and his religion. You know, these are very devout Muslims. The only book they really have...
STARR: Give us an example of how that was done, breaking that bond.
NOVAK: He -- what he was witnessing as a translator for some of these interrogations involved sort of sexual enticement. Attempts by female interrogators to arouse the detainees, to make them feel unclean.
HAYS: And these are female Army officers or something?
NOVAK: Yeah. And to make them feel unclean, and wiping what the detainee was told was menstrual blood on their face, and you know, exposing, you know, their bodies in tight t-shirts, and essentially trying to get the detainees aroused.
One particular interrogation, the detainee became so agitated and so furious that he lunged forward and actually came out of one of his -- one of his foot shackles, his ankle shackles. And it was -- and then they would turn off the water in their cells so they couldn't wash themselves and become ritually clean so they could pray again.
And the idea was that by breaking them down in this way, they would then start talking. But actually, the reverse was true in Erik's observation. They were less likely to talk after being abused this way.
HAYS: And this just seems so awful, because first of all, you're subjecting people to inhuman practices, which make you less human yourself. You are saying he questioned legitimacy of a lot of the information that got out of it. Then we go -- we fast forward or cut to Abu Ghraib. Now we don't feel like this is so random. We feel potentially this is a result of policies that come from the top and come right down to the ranks.
NOVAK: That's right. And that's one thing that Erik is very upset about, is this whole accountability question, because I think the climate was sort of set. It became all sort of fuzzed up after certain techniques were allowed at Guantanamo. And then they rescinded those techniques, but we know now about the torture memos in the Justice Department and the sort of attempts to justify treating these people in ways that were not in compliance with the Geneva Convention.
And I think once you have that kind of confusion, you can see how Abu Ghraib would sort of -- things would devolve to that stage. But the accountability question, you know, we've seen the Lynndie England, her trial be very -- she was going to plead guilty; now she can't plead guilty. And it's all very confused. But these are people at the very lowest levels. And Erik thinks that, you know, it's people at the higher levels that should be taking responsibility for what happened.
HAYS: Well, sounds like the book you and Erik have written will certainly create maybe a little more pressure for that kind of thing to happen.
Thank you so much for joining us.
NOVAK: Thank you.
HAYS: Good luck with "Inside the Wire." Come back again.
Just ahead, not just gambling at the track for yesterday's derby and other big races; you can find investors there, too.
Mary Snow is going to talk about the brain-damaged firefighter who began to speak after nine-and-a-half years.
At the end of the hour, our "What's Her Story?" segment about Rasheda Ali, daughter of boxing great Muhammad Ali. That's all coming up, plus a look at what's making headlines right now.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BETTY NGUYEN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning on this Mother's Day. I'm Betty Nguyen at the CNN Center in Atlanta. "ON THE STORY" continues in just a moment, but first, here are the headlines now in the news.
Want to give you some pictures of President Bush as he has arrived in Moscow. Today, he will be meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin. This is part of a five-day, four-country trip which wraps up on Tuesday.
In other news, police have reopened the investigation involving one of the most notorious convicted murderers in America. Wayne Williams was convicted in two of the murders out of more than two dozen deaths nearly 25 years ago in the Atlanta area. A police chief reopening the investigation says he believes Williams is innocent of the charges. Now, the prosecutor says there is no reason to revisit those murders.
A dramatic rescue off the coast of North Carolina -- look at this -- after a sail boat got caught in rough seas, the area was battered by strong winds. The boat had engine trouble and was taking on water. Well, the men, they tethered themselves to the boat until help arrived, a move the Coast Guard says probably saved their lives.
And don't forget your mother today. Back in 1914, President Wilson proclaimed the second Sunday in May as the day to honor mothers. According to the experts, shoppers will shell out nearly $11.5 billion this year. Most moms will get dinner or jewelry -- not that one is better than the other, but diamonds are a girl's best friend. Hint, hint.
Those are the headlines. We'll have more news in 30 minutes. Now, it's back to CNN's ON THE STORY.
HAYS: Oh, boy, when you hear that, it is the color and excitement of the race (INAUDIBLE) the Kentucky Derby yesterday, the longest shot, one of the longest shots in derby history. Some of us wagered big, some of us small, but some people actually bought a piece of the action, a share of a thoroughbred.
Welcome back. I'm Kathleen Hays, and we're ON THE STORY.
SLOBOGIN: So Kathleen, is that a good investment, and how much do you actually have to have to buy yourself a piece of a horse?
HAYS: It's a fun investment. You know, when I worked on the story about investing in thoroughbred partnerships, I was really thinking, well, it can't be a great investment, because it is so very risky. It's one of the riskiest things you can buy into it.
It didn't dawn on me that when you invest in a thoroughbred partnership, you become an owner. You now can talk to the trainer. You can go to the track. You can get the inside scoop on the other horses and what your trainer's hearing.
In this particular derby, which Giacomo won, a 50 to 1 long shot. $2 bet paid you over $100. Think if you bet $100. But Afleet Alex was one of the favorites, who came in third. It was a heart-breaking finish for the owners, who are a partnership. They've been together for about a year. They plunked down $100,000 initially. The horse has won them over $1 million. And my understanding is, you can get in for as little maybe as $5,000 sometimes into these partnerships. If you are going for higher class horses in higher class races, it's going to cost you more. But it is a very, very risky investment.
SLOBOGIN: It's a long shot.
HAYS: It is. But a fun one.
STARR: A long shot but a fun one, but actually, it's something Wall Street pays a little attention to. There are people who are noticing this.
HAYS: Well, actually I heard interesting stories, a man who was a bond trader on Wall Street who is now a horse trainer. An investment adviser I know who has actually invested in these kinds of things herself. So let's listen to something that Rosemary Lugary (ph) had to say for anyone who might be interested in investing in thoroughbreds.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do your due diligence and your homework. Read research, look on the Web site, go to the track, investigate the partners and the trainers. Talk to other people who have been in partnerships with these people. And see what their successes and their failures have found.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYS: There is a great Web site for anyone who is interested. It is called TheGreatestGame.com. It's a joint effort of the Thoroughbred and Breeder's Association, the National Thoroughbred Racing Association. What's really cool about this, if you're seriously interested in buying into a partnership, buying a horse, they link you up with a reputable, checked-out trainer, owner who will consult you free of charge, to give you some ideas about how to get into this.
STARR: All right, well, that's something fun, but there is something a little less fun going on in the economy right now, some very interesting developments in the auto industry, especially with General Motors.
HAYS: Well, everybody on Wall Street knew this was going to happen, but when General Motors and Ford Motors get their bonds downgraded to junk, two -- you know, these are two of the biggest, oldest names in the American, you know, industry.
STARR: How did this happen?
HAYS: Well, global competition has gotten worse and worse. GM in particular has union contracts -- and the workers have earned the right to get their pensions, to have their health care paid for, but it's making it very difficult for them to compete on an hour-for-hour, wage-for-wage basis.
I think one of the latest worries and why the credit rating agencies downgraded them -- and think of it, you have a credit rating, right? It's your -- that credit score you get? Well, big companies do too, because they are looking at the fact that the big sellers for companies like Ford and GM have been the SUVs and light trucks, and now with the high gas prices, consumers are moving more and more to some of the imports that are smaller, more fuel-efficient. And there's just some big questions about what is going to happen with the companies.
SLOBOGIN: What about the mixed economic news this week? There's good news on jobs, but consumer confidence is down. What is happening there?
HAYS: In a nutshell, the Fed raised rates for the eighth time since last June, so obviously they think the economy is on track. On Friday, we got a great employment report, finally. Problem is, the pattern is the same as last year so far. Great jobs (INAUDIBLE). You have 274,000 jobs in April. In the first three months, things fizzling out. So Wall Street says, well, let's see what happened. The stock market ended flat on Friday. They don't know what to do. Should they worry about more rate hikes? Should they worry about a soft economy? Be happy about jobs? They are not clear yet. They are still betting, and they're not sure how it is going to turn out. SLOBOGIN: Well, Kathleen, you certainly can't cut it in the economy today if you don't get the basics in school. I'm back on the story about the new requirements for schools, and whether No Child Left Behind is delivering its promise. Right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I handed out the textbooks, I read the instructions out of the administrator's menu, OK, get busy. Kids were looking at me with blank stares. I said, what are you waiting for? And about a third of my students said, the answers. I know that the teachers are cheating, because kids have told me that's how it was done with their particular teacher.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SLOBOGIN: That's Julie Darmillo (ph), a middle school teacher in Houston, talking about the cheating scandal that hit Texas schools -- the birthplace of No Child Left Behind.
Now, central to that reform are tests administered to children to make sure they are actually learning what they're supposed to be, and they're called high-stakes tests, because there are serious consequences for school if kids fail. Thanks to President Bush, high- stakes tests will be the standard across the country by 2014. Supporters say it's high time that the schools were held accountable for what kids are learning, but critics are saying that the pressure is promoting cheating, it's hiding drop-outs, and it condemns some kids to failure.
It is the topic of the new "CNN PRESENTS" program this evening, "High Stakes: The Battle to Save Our Schools," by filmmaker Stanley Nelson.
Welcome back. I'm Kathy Slobogin, and we're ON THE STORY.
STARR: Kathy, you know, you talk about the Texas miracle, you know, this is all a result, the legacy of President Bush when he was Governor Bush of Texas, and it seemed to have worked well. And it seems now to be turning into a scandal. How did this happen?
SLOBOGIN: Well, it's awfully odd that a movement to instill accountability in the schools can end up with cheating, and what's happened here is that when then Governor Bush tried out this reform in Texas before he did it on the federal stage, there were these miraculous stories. Test scores were soaring, dropout rates were plummeting. In fact, they called it the Texas miracle, they called it the Houston miracle. Houston was seen to be the centerpiece of this, and former Education Secretary Rod Paige hailed from there.
And then it started to unravel. And we heard reports from, you know, whistle-blowers saying that in fact, the dropout rates that were reported to be so low were fraudulent, and that in fact dropout rates in Houston particularly were up to 50 percent. So it really called into question, what does it mean that test scores are soaring if half the kids are dropping out? And then late last year, as we were putting this documentary together, allegations of actual cheating were heating up, where teachers were being pressured by administrators.
Now, why the pressure? Well, part of the idea was that performance would be tied to pay. So a superintendent could get a $20,000 a year bonus if test scores would go up. But flip side of the coin, if test scores went down, he could be demoted or moved.
HAYS: It seems like this could also indicate too, a lot of the teachers just feel this is being forced them, and they feel somewhat cynical about these tests. Let's just pass it and let's get on with our life and do what we want to do.
But I think -- I haven't seen your documentary yet, but reading the scripts, the pressure on the kids, what the consequences for some of the kids is, is heart-breaking.
SLOBOGIN: It is heart-breaking. And of course, if this all works out well, it could be a great self-esteem booster for the kids. They learn the material, they do well. But what's actually happening in many school systems, particularly urban school systems, is that large numbers of children are failing this test.
We met one little boy in Florida, where you have to pass this test in order to get onto the next grade, Melvin Love (ph), who has been retained three times. And this is his story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have to get up at 6:00 o'clock and go to the bus stop at 7:15, get to (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Every morning, Melvin Love Jr. (ph) travels to school from the cramped apartment where he lives with his mother and three siblings.
Like every third grader in the state, Melvin must pass the Florida comprehensive assessment test, or F-CAT, to be promoted to the fourth grade.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is a lot of test-taking in school. We take tests every week and I don't like it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What Melvin really doesn't like are the consequences of his test scores.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When I got my last report card, it said on the thing that I am retained in third grade.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Most third graders are 8 or 9 years old. But Melvin is 11. That's because he has been held back three times.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tell me the life span of a star fish. Average life span. Melvin.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Seven.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Melvin is a student who I think could have handled fourth grade. He is at the top of our class. If a teacher would have had a say, he would have been in the fourth grade, and he would be just fine in fourth grade. But now he becomes another statistic.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SLOBOGIN: Melvin is one of 45,000 third graders in Florida who failed the test in the last two years.
STARR: Kathy, there is a lot of support among President Bush's supporters for the No Child Left Behind program. What are they saying about all this?
SLOBOGIN: Well, that is very true. And you know, I don't think anyone we've talked to would go back and say that the old system worked. And we've all heard the horror stories about kids who get all the way through school and can't read. There needs to be accountability.
And I think that those supporters would say, the system was just rotten and produced rotten results before, and we need to do something.
What our documentary is saying is, but let's go out and listen to the people that are on the receiving end of this reform, the teachers and the kids who are actually experiencing this.
One anecdote I have to share, a third-grade teacher who said that her third graders were tested 27 times in one month, and by the time they got to the big test, where they -- which determined whether they were going to move on or not, they were crying and stressed out, bawling their eyes out. So these are 8-year-olds.
STARR: No matter where you stand on this issue, your heart just goes out to these little kids.
Well, from No Child Left Behind to a medical mystery some are calling a miracle, that played out in Buffalo, New York this week. A firefighter, brain-damaged and unable to speak, suddenly was able to converse with his family after nine-and-a-half years of silence. Mary Snow is back on that story after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LINDA HERBERT, DONALD HERBERT'S WIFE: To speak to and to be recognized by my husband, their father, after nine-and-a-half years was completely overwhelming.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
STARR: Linda Herbert saying it was overwhelming when her husband, a brain-damaged firefighter, broke a nine-and-a-half year silence and spoke to his family. Herbert was gravely injured in the line of duty, after a roof collapsed, and he went without oxygen for 10 minutes.
CNN correspondent Mary Snow now joins us in New York. Mary, this is just an incredible story. What is his condition now? What's going on?
MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Barbara, it really is amazing, and he spoke, Donald Herbert spoke last Saturday for a 14- hour spurt. Now, since then doctors say he has not been as lucid as he was on that day. However, they say that he has been able to respond since then. That he has, at times, been able to speak in sentences. So they are hopeful that he will continue to make progress, although he certainly isn't in the same shape that he was last weekend.
HAYS: So Mary, tell us a little bit more about his condition, why he languished, and what it was that doctors finally did that sparked this ability to speak?
SNOW: Well, Kathleen, he had been able -- he was in a coma first, for almost three months, and then after that, he was in what some doctors describe as a minimally conscious state, where he was able to respond on some levels, but he was not able to speak. He was able to walk, as you saw in that videotape a couple of minutes ago, and respond in terms of following commands.
Now, the doctor who has been treating him most recently said he took over the case about three years ago and started trying various different treatments. About three months ago, he decided to change his medications, and what he did was put together a cocktail of drugs -- a drug for Parkinson's, a drug for attention deficit disorder, and an antidepressant. And this cocktail was given to Donald Herbert about three months ago. The doctor expected some changes in about six months. And then he really says that that combination of drugs helped stimulate neurotransmitters in his brain, which he credits with helping him.
But also, you know, the doctor made a very strong point of saying, it was also the persistence of Linda Herbert, Donald's wife, who would not give up, even though she was told at various points there is no hope. He said, he was really impressed with her and her persistence to go forward and try different therapies.
SLOBOGIN: Mary, what is the difference between the state of Donald Herbert and that of the recently famous case, Terri Schiavo, in terms of what was going on in their brains?
SNOW: Yeah, a lot of questions about that, because Terri Schiavo's case was so closely watched. And what doctors were saying is that Terri Schiavo had been in a persistent vegetative state. Now, Donald Herbert's doctors said that he was like that state, but there was a big difference, because he responded, as compared to Terri Schiavo, and doctors have said that she did not respond. One other thing that doctors have been talking about this week is that they've been able to make a better determination of patients who they believe may respond, as opposed to those who they believe will never be able to respond because of the extent of the brain damage.
STARR: Well, I suppose, Mary, for families out there, that is really a key question. Is there a sense that there are other patients out there like this young man, who may be able to respond in the future with some kind of treatment?
SNOW: Yeah. It certainly is a big issue. And a number of doctors we spoke to, including Donald Herbert's doctor, said this week that there could very well be patients out there in nursing homes who are not getting this kind of treatment. Perhaps patients who people have given up on, and may very well be able to respond to some sort of medication.
And because these cases are so rare, it's really one big issue is that doctors are saying they really need to study these cases more often, and just really know more about the brain and study how the brain works.
HAYS: Mary, just give us a glimpse, though, of the moment when Donald Herbert spoke to his son. His father went into this state, what, when he was 3 years old, and they spoke for hours. Tell will us about that.
SNOW: Yeah, if you can imagine, this little boy, the youngest of four sons, 3 years old when his dad was injured. Donald Herbert, apparently when he woke up, only had a long-term memory. So when he saw his now-teenage son, said, this can't be him, according to his family. And this little boy had 14 hours, they said Donald Herbert didn't want to stop speaking, he didn't want to go to sleep. But this little boy had this one day with his dad, where he was able to finally be recognized. And as Linda Herbert said, it was just really overwhelming.
STARR: Overwhelming, and just an amazing story. We're back on our stories after this.
ANNOUNCER: A boxing legend's daughter pens a book. "What's Her Story?" More when we return.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Rasheda Ali, "What's Her Story?" inspired by her father, Muhammad Ali's daughter has written a book called "I'll Hold Your Hand So You Won't Fall," to help children understand the effects of Parkinson's disease.
RASHEDA ALI, AUTHOR: I want to have other families out there, because I know when my son asked me, why is poppy shaking? I know I wasn't the only mom that was asked that question. I was perplexed, to be honest with you. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As a child in Illinois, Rasheda barely knew her famous father. As an adult, they have become much closer. She lives in Las Vegas, where she works as an actor and raises her two sons.
Muhammad Ali announced in 1984 that he had Parkinson's, a disease that affects more than one million Americans.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
STARR: And of course, happy Mother's Day, mom, and to daddy, for making the best decision 55 years ago.
HAYS: And happy Mom's Day to my mom and to my sister-in-law, Teresa (ph), who is a new mom again this week.
SLOBOGIN: And I've got to second that emotion. Happy Mother's Day to my mother if you are out there watching.
SNOW: My mother has always been my role model, and a special day for her.
STARR: Thanks to all of my colleagues and our mothers, and thank you for watching ON THE STORY. We will be back next week. At 12:00 noon Eastern, "LATE EDITION" with Wolf Blitzer. Amongst Wolf's guests, a top International Atomic Energy Agency head, Mohamed ElBaradei. Straight ahead, "CNN LIVE SUNDAY."
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired May 8, 2005 - 10:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Welcome to CNN's ON THE STORY, where our journalist have the inside word on the stories we covered this week. I'm Barbara Starr, on the story of how the fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan makes it harder back home to recruit new troops.
JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Jill Dougherty in Moscow on the story as President Bush arrives here to celebrate the allied World War II victory in Europe 60 years ago.
KATHY SLOBOGIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Kathy Slobogin on the story of No Child Left Behind and how the accountability movement in our schools may be creating pressure for teachers to cheat.
KATHLEEN HAYS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Kathleen Hays on the story of more jobs, higher interest rates, but lower consumer confidence.
Also coming up, Mary Snow talks about the injured Buffalo, New York firefighter who regained the ability to speak after nine-and-a- half years. "Time" magazine's Viveca Novak joins us on the story about her new book, "Inside the Wire," about terror suspects held at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
At the end of our hour, our "What's Her Story?" segment looks at Muhammad Ali's daughter, Rasheda. So e-mail us at onthestory@cnn.com.
Now, straight ahead to Jill Dougherty and victory in Europe 60 years ago.
DOUGHERTY: The red flags are on the march in Moscow. The bands are tuning up as this whole part of the world gets ready to celebrate the 60th anniversary of the end of World War II in Europe. President Bush has already arrived, and a little bit later he will be sitting down, meeting with President Vladimir Putin. They will be celebrating a joint victory in 1945, but they have got a lot of tough questions about this relationship in 2005.
STARR: And, Jill, as President Bush arrives in Moscow today, a lot of history, a lot of celebration, but there is a big political undercurrent right now. What is going to shape up later today on that front?
DOUGHERTY: You know, it's all geared to this -- you would have to say the basis of the foreign policy of President Bush right now, which is the spread of democracy. And specifically, look at the trip that he has. He's coming via Latvia. That is in the Baltics, it's an area that feels that, well, World War II, we may have been helped by the Russians, but we were then subjugated by the Soviet Union. It's a very delicate thing 60 years later. The tensions and the feelings about this are still very strong.
HAYS: What is the feeling, though, within the country? Do the people support President Putin, who has called the break-up of the Soviet Union the greatest geopolitical catastrophe in history? Do they want to go back to the old days of a strong central government, even a dictator? Or are they at odds with their president?
DOUGHERTY: Well, you know, when you look at May 9th, you have to remember that this is really the biggest celebration in Russia. It is extremely important to Russians. It's very emotional. Many, many people, almost every single Russian family was touched by World War II. You even had this afternoon President Putin himself -- he doesn't talk about that that much, but he was talking about his own family. They lost half of their relatives. His grandmother was killed. His own parents, his mother and father, had a little baby, a little boy, who was born just before President Putin. President Putin was born in '52. And that little boy died during the war.
So this is a very important, emotional connection for Russians.
It's not to say that they necessarily think that, you know, Stalin was good -- although there are people who do believe that. But they believe that Russia paid for with the blood of its people, 27 million of them, the price for freedom and freedom from the Nazis.
SLOBOGIN: Jill, what about the tension that's been alluded to between Bush and Putin on the question of democracy and how free a society Russia is going to be. Is there anticipation in Russia that there's going to be some push-back on that?
DOUGHERTY: Well, you can say that this has been coming up a lot in recent time. Remember, just a couple of months ago, when we were in Bratislava, and you had that news conference, really tense, with President Bush and President Putin talking about these very same issues. They've discussed them a lot. And President Putin is pushing back. He is saying, look, we have democracy. We are moving in the direction that the West wants us to move in. But don't push us. We have our own type of democracy. And he's even made some really sensitive comments about the election in the United States that put George Bush back into office for another four years.
STARR: Now, Jill, you know, you talk about the feeling of the Russian people. It's a very emotional event today that's unfolding, the end of World War II. What's the mood on the street? Are we seeing in Moscow, in the cities across Russia, this feeling, this very deep emotion about the end of World War II?
DOUGHERTY: You know, there's not a lot that Russians can really celebrate. Their country fell apart. The Soviet Union fell apart. They are no longer a super power. A lot of people lost all the money they had in all of the currency and the problems with the economy. World War II and what they accomplished in World War II is something that can really give them purpose and meaning. You know, there was a Russian priest who said, it's an icon of unity for the Russian people. So it almost transcends political ideology. It is something where they feel that they united and did the impossible, and that they will never give up. And it makes them happy and sad at the same time.
HAYS: What about President Bush wanting President Putin to help him with North Korea, with Iran, with the nuclear question there? On the other hand, as you mentioned at the outset, visiting countries like Latvia and Georgia, supporting democracy movements around Russia? How do the Russian people respond to that? Do they feel that the U.S. is trying to undercut their role in that region?
DOUGHERTY: Some do, some don't. But you would have to say that this is really a very delicate operation here that President Bush is trying to carry out. And certainly, the Russians feel that the United States has been horning in on its territory. So in a lot of this, you are getting quite a bit of defensiveness on the part of the Russians.
Look at Ukraine. Ukraine, Kyrgyzstan, Georgia before that -- that's all Soviet territory. And certainly President Putin feels that the U.S. is actually trying to push these revolutions, as he would call it. He doesn't call it democracy; he calls it revolution.
SLOBOGIN: You know, Jill, I think it's surprising for a lot of people in the West on the 60th anniversary, when we think of Soviet post-war occupation of Eastern Europe, we think of tyranny, we think of repression. The Russians, do they see it differently? Is there a disconnect there?
DOUGHERTY: I think you would have to say that among a lot of Russians, again, they feel that they paid for the victory with their blood. And they also feel that it was the Soviet Union that did a lot of the things, let's say, in the Baltics that diminished the freedom of those people, and certainly some would argue enslave those people.
But they say Russia is a different country. It's Russia, it is not the Soviet Union. So a lot of people would really divide those two things, and they don't feel responsible, oddly enough, for what happened let's say in the Baltics.
STARR: Well, Jill, I know you're going to stay with us. We're going to chat more. Terrorism and the war in Iraq will be big topics when the allies meet in Moscow today and tomorrow. I'm back on the search for the number one terrorist in Iraq in a moment.
ANNOUNCER: Barbara Starr, CNN's Pentagon correspondent. She worked for NBC News and "Business Week." She is a former Washington bureau chief of "Jane's Defense Weekly."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) NASIR AL-ABADI, DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF, IRAQI ARMY: I think sooner or later, we're going to catch him. He's bound to make a mistake. And information will come to us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
STARR: Lieutenant General Nasir Al-Abadi, deputy chief of staff of the Iraqi army, saying sooner or later they will capture terrorist mastermind Abu Musab al Zarqawi. This comes as a new wave of deadly insurgent attacks broke over Iraq, including suicide attacks and mass executions.
Welcome back. I'm Barbara Starr. We're ON THE STORY.
DOUGHERTY: So Barbara, what is the latest on the level of violence in Iraq?
STARR: Jill, it gets worse by the day. One indication this morning, we had an official in the U.S. military confirm to CNN this morning that in the last nine days, they estimate 300 Iraqis, 300 Iraqis have been killed.
Now, violence is down. The deaths of American soldiers are down. That is good news. But by any measure, the violence against Iraqis is still going up right now. Very difficult situation. This comes as the Pentagon continues to say this wave of insurgent attacks can't be sustained. The insurgents can't keep it up. They will diminish, et cetera, but a measure this morning that's really quite grim.
SLOBOGIN: Barbara, the man that's reported to be the mastermind behind a lot of these attacks, Zarqawi, there's been stories of near misses lately. What indications do we have of exactly how near these misses have been?
STARR: Well, the one that we know about the most was February 20th, near Ramadi and Khadifa (ph), when U.S. forces came very close to capturing him, apparently. He escaped at the last minute. But they did get his driver.
Now, overnight, the U.S. military has put out a statement about all of this, and it's quite an astounding press release that the military has put out, because I want to show everybody something that the press release, very important, said. They quoted the driver that they got as saying this about Zarqawi near miss. Quote, "Zarqawi became hysterical. Zarqawi did not know where he was, because he demanded repeatedly, 'who lives in this area? What sub-tribe is here'?" That's Abu Usama, Zarqawi's driver, talking about what happened February 20th when Zarqawi came close to being caught and that Zarqawi was hysterical.
We have never had the U.S. military give us direct quotes from detainee interrogations. That's always been intelligence.
HAYS: So what does this mean, though? Cut through the spin, because we know Washington likes to spin. You tell me 300 deaths. You tell me the Pentagon says it's getting better, and that now they are taking this unprecedented step of releasing the kind of information they have it. What is really going on here, Barbara? Are they panicked because this is getting worse, or is there some progress that we don't see when all we see are these reports of deaths?
STARR: Clearly, there is political progress, and that is, many people believe, the ultimate solution for Iraq's future -- a stable, political government. That is a long way off. They are making steps in that direction.
On Zarqawi, what our sources tell us this morning is this extraordinary statement was put out because they want to demonstrate to the world that Zarqawi is not, quote, "10 feet tall." He, too, can become hysterical.
Whether that's true or not, we have no idea. At the same time, there is no question that at least right now, the violence, the attacks against Iraqis are on the rise. That is something the U.S. is very concerned about, because it may undermine this political stability.
So, it's a complex situation. Iraq always continues to be a complex situation. No easy answers.
DOUGHERTY: So what about that recent arrest by the Pakistanis of an al Qaeda figure? Isn't that progress?
STARR: Well, that certainly is progress. Again, Jill, you are absolutely right. Against the al Qaeda, against the broader war on terrorism. This is, shall we say, Mr. Al-Libbi, the purported, alleged number three in the al Qaeda organization, picked up by Pakistani forces in the city of Mardan. You see, he doesn't look like he's in really good shape. A lot of people making comments, you know, the number three position in al Qaeda seems to have tenuous job security. There's been an awful lot of number threes. They are getting picked up.
The real question is this -- as you pick up people like Al-Libbi, is bin laden now having to rely on a second tier around him, people he's less secure about, people he knows less about, somebody who someday may rat him out.
HAYS: And, Barbara, there's a real cost being out of this sense of progress, maybe not enough progress. The violence continuing because, you know, it's keeping apparently the U.S. military from signing on new recruits. Barbara, you went to Brooklyn, New York this week to talk to some kids on the street. Let's look at part of your report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
STARR (voice-over): For 19-year-old Roman Hernandez, the Army is an option. But he is worried. What about the war in Iraq?
ROMAN HERNANDEZ: I might get deployed over there. I might not come back, I mean, how many people have you lost already. STARR: For the third month in a row, the Army has failed to meet its recruiting goal. If Iraq is the major issue for young people, recruiters know their parents must also be convinced.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The biggest thing I hear is just simply that they don't want -- they don't support the war and they don't want their children to fight in this war, period. That is cut and dry. There's no other reason. That's all they say.
STARR: One potential solution, a new series of intimate television commercials.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're a changed man.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How's that?
STARR: Madison Avenue trying to persuade parents to understand, joining the Army is a good idea.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You shook my hand. Then you looked me square in the eye. Where did that come from?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
STARR: Of course, many young people across America continuing to sign up to serve their country, but many young people continuing to ask questions about it all.
HAYS: That's a many-headed hydra, as you said, a complicated story.
Something a little less complicated we want to mention. Jill Dougherty has been CNN's rock in Russia since 1997 as the bureau chief in Moscow, heading now to be the head of the Asia Pacific operations in Hong Kong. Jill, what do you have to tell us, your best memory or your brightest hope as you look ahead?
DOUGHERTY: I think it's the brightest hope, really, would be, you know, I've been coming -- I've been here as a bureau chief for eight years, and I've been coming to this country since I was in college. And now I get -- and being in China, I get to see another piece of the puzzle, you know, how China will adapt to the 21st century. And no matter what it does, it's going to have a major, major effect on the world.
HAYS: Well, Jill, thank you so much for all your work in Moscow. We look forward to having you ON THE STORY in your new role.
New developments this week in the prisoner abuse scandal, and continuing questions about how the U.S. keeps terrorism suspects at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. Up next, we're back on the story with "Time" magazine's Viveca Novak, and her new book, "Inside the Wire," about life inside Guantanamo.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) STARR: "Inside the Wire" is the title of the new book about the camp in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba where the United States detained suspected terrorists and enemy combatants. "Time" magazine's Washington correspondent Viveca Novak wrote the book with Erik Saar, who served at Guantanamo as a translator and military intelligence specialist. Viveca is with us.
Viveca, what surprised you the most about what goes on inside that wire?
VIVECA NOVAK, TIME MAGAZINE: I think, you know, hearing about the interrogation techniques that were used, which were, you know, Erik thinks that they were certainly in violation of the Geneva Conventions, which the president said, of course, they didn't apply in Guantanamo anyway. But Erik expected, I think, to see detainees treated within, you know, the sort of spirit of the Geneva Conventions.
And also I think he was surprised, you know, and I was surprised hearing it from him that, you know, this was not a very sophisticated intelligence-gathering military operation. It was not what he believed he would see when he volunteered to go down there.
HAYS: So tell us more about your co-author. How he got involved at Guantanamo, how you met him, and what his role was in putting this book together.
NOVAK: Well, Erik -- he's from a small town in Pennsylvania. Grew up in a conservative and a very religious family. And he signed up for the military after college. Got trained as an Arabic linguist and in military intelligence, and then 9/11 happened just about the time he had gotten his training.
So he was perfectly positioned to help in the war on terror. And really, that's all he wanted to do. He was very gung-ho about it. And he worked with the FBI near ground zero right after 9/11. And then he worked at the National Security Agency here in Washington after that, and then his command asked for volunteers to go to Gitmo. And he was very eager to do it. He was very eager to do go down there and do everything he could to fight the war on terror. And he was there for six-and-a-half months.
And in that time, what he saw caused him to believe that what we're doing is not just morally wrong, but strategically a mistake. And he came back, you know, feeling like this was something important that he wanted to write about.
SLOBOGIN: You know, Viveca, reports like this and certainly Abu Ghraib have given the United States a black eye in terms of public relations around the world. Are the intelligence gains that are coming out of this compensating for that in any way, from what you know?
NOVAK: Well, Erik certainly thinks that the intelligence, what little intelligence we're getting out of Guantanamo, is not worth the price we're paying in world opinion. And he says that very little worthwhile intelligence has come out of Guantanamo which is, of course, different from what the Pentagon says.
STARR: Now, these interrogation techniques that he writes about and you write about in the book and what we have heard, some of them would probably be -- some of these accounts would be fairly astounding to most Americans. Tell us a little bit more about some of these controversial interrogation techniques.
NOVAK: Well, I think the ones that sort of put him over the top in terms of his feelings about the place involved trying to break the bond between a detainee and his religion. You know, these are very devout Muslims. The only book they really have...
STARR: Give us an example of how that was done, breaking that bond.
NOVAK: He -- what he was witnessing as a translator for some of these interrogations involved sort of sexual enticement. Attempts by female interrogators to arouse the detainees, to make them feel unclean.
HAYS: And these are female Army officers or something?
NOVAK: Yeah. And to make them feel unclean, and wiping what the detainee was told was menstrual blood on their face, and you know, exposing, you know, their bodies in tight t-shirts, and essentially trying to get the detainees aroused.
One particular interrogation, the detainee became so agitated and so furious that he lunged forward and actually came out of one of his -- one of his foot shackles, his ankle shackles. And it was -- and then they would turn off the water in their cells so they couldn't wash themselves and become ritually clean so they could pray again.
And the idea was that by breaking them down in this way, they would then start talking. But actually, the reverse was true in Erik's observation. They were less likely to talk after being abused this way.
HAYS: And this just seems so awful, because first of all, you're subjecting people to inhuman practices, which make you less human yourself. You are saying he questioned legitimacy of a lot of the information that got out of it. Then we go -- we fast forward or cut to Abu Ghraib. Now we don't feel like this is so random. We feel potentially this is a result of policies that come from the top and come right down to the ranks.
NOVAK: That's right. And that's one thing that Erik is very upset about, is this whole accountability question, because I think the climate was sort of set. It became all sort of fuzzed up after certain techniques were allowed at Guantanamo. And then they rescinded those techniques, but we know now about the torture memos in the Justice Department and the sort of attempts to justify treating these people in ways that were not in compliance with the Geneva Convention.
And I think once you have that kind of confusion, you can see how Abu Ghraib would sort of -- things would devolve to that stage. But the accountability question, you know, we've seen the Lynndie England, her trial be very -- she was going to plead guilty; now she can't plead guilty. And it's all very confused. But these are people at the very lowest levels. And Erik thinks that, you know, it's people at the higher levels that should be taking responsibility for what happened.
HAYS: Well, sounds like the book you and Erik have written will certainly create maybe a little more pressure for that kind of thing to happen.
Thank you so much for joining us.
NOVAK: Thank you.
HAYS: Good luck with "Inside the Wire." Come back again.
Just ahead, not just gambling at the track for yesterday's derby and other big races; you can find investors there, too.
Mary Snow is going to talk about the brain-damaged firefighter who began to speak after nine-and-a-half years.
At the end of the hour, our "What's Her Story?" segment about Rasheda Ali, daughter of boxing great Muhammad Ali. That's all coming up, plus a look at what's making headlines right now.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BETTY NGUYEN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning on this Mother's Day. I'm Betty Nguyen at the CNN Center in Atlanta. "ON THE STORY" continues in just a moment, but first, here are the headlines now in the news.
Want to give you some pictures of President Bush as he has arrived in Moscow. Today, he will be meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin. This is part of a five-day, four-country trip which wraps up on Tuesday.
In other news, police have reopened the investigation involving one of the most notorious convicted murderers in America. Wayne Williams was convicted in two of the murders out of more than two dozen deaths nearly 25 years ago in the Atlanta area. A police chief reopening the investigation says he believes Williams is innocent of the charges. Now, the prosecutor says there is no reason to revisit those murders.
A dramatic rescue off the coast of North Carolina -- look at this -- after a sail boat got caught in rough seas, the area was battered by strong winds. The boat had engine trouble and was taking on water. Well, the men, they tethered themselves to the boat until help arrived, a move the Coast Guard says probably saved their lives.
And don't forget your mother today. Back in 1914, President Wilson proclaimed the second Sunday in May as the day to honor mothers. According to the experts, shoppers will shell out nearly $11.5 billion this year. Most moms will get dinner or jewelry -- not that one is better than the other, but diamonds are a girl's best friend. Hint, hint.
Those are the headlines. We'll have more news in 30 minutes. Now, it's back to CNN's ON THE STORY.
HAYS: Oh, boy, when you hear that, it is the color and excitement of the race (INAUDIBLE) the Kentucky Derby yesterday, the longest shot, one of the longest shots in derby history. Some of us wagered big, some of us small, but some people actually bought a piece of the action, a share of a thoroughbred.
Welcome back. I'm Kathleen Hays, and we're ON THE STORY.
SLOBOGIN: So Kathleen, is that a good investment, and how much do you actually have to have to buy yourself a piece of a horse?
HAYS: It's a fun investment. You know, when I worked on the story about investing in thoroughbred partnerships, I was really thinking, well, it can't be a great investment, because it is so very risky. It's one of the riskiest things you can buy into it.
It didn't dawn on me that when you invest in a thoroughbred partnership, you become an owner. You now can talk to the trainer. You can go to the track. You can get the inside scoop on the other horses and what your trainer's hearing.
In this particular derby, which Giacomo won, a 50 to 1 long shot. $2 bet paid you over $100. Think if you bet $100. But Afleet Alex was one of the favorites, who came in third. It was a heart-breaking finish for the owners, who are a partnership. They've been together for about a year. They plunked down $100,000 initially. The horse has won them over $1 million. And my understanding is, you can get in for as little maybe as $5,000 sometimes into these partnerships. If you are going for higher class horses in higher class races, it's going to cost you more. But it is a very, very risky investment.
SLOBOGIN: It's a long shot.
HAYS: It is. But a fun one.
STARR: A long shot but a fun one, but actually, it's something Wall Street pays a little attention to. There are people who are noticing this.
HAYS: Well, actually I heard interesting stories, a man who was a bond trader on Wall Street who is now a horse trainer. An investment adviser I know who has actually invested in these kinds of things herself. So let's listen to something that Rosemary Lugary (ph) had to say for anyone who might be interested in investing in thoroughbreds.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do your due diligence and your homework. Read research, look on the Web site, go to the track, investigate the partners and the trainers. Talk to other people who have been in partnerships with these people. And see what their successes and their failures have found.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYS: There is a great Web site for anyone who is interested. It is called TheGreatestGame.com. It's a joint effort of the Thoroughbred and Breeder's Association, the National Thoroughbred Racing Association. What's really cool about this, if you're seriously interested in buying into a partnership, buying a horse, they link you up with a reputable, checked-out trainer, owner who will consult you free of charge, to give you some ideas about how to get into this.
STARR: All right, well, that's something fun, but there is something a little less fun going on in the economy right now, some very interesting developments in the auto industry, especially with General Motors.
HAYS: Well, everybody on Wall Street knew this was going to happen, but when General Motors and Ford Motors get their bonds downgraded to junk, two -- you know, these are two of the biggest, oldest names in the American, you know, industry.
STARR: How did this happen?
HAYS: Well, global competition has gotten worse and worse. GM in particular has union contracts -- and the workers have earned the right to get their pensions, to have their health care paid for, but it's making it very difficult for them to compete on an hour-for-hour, wage-for-wage basis.
I think one of the latest worries and why the credit rating agencies downgraded them -- and think of it, you have a credit rating, right? It's your -- that credit score you get? Well, big companies do too, because they are looking at the fact that the big sellers for companies like Ford and GM have been the SUVs and light trucks, and now with the high gas prices, consumers are moving more and more to some of the imports that are smaller, more fuel-efficient. And there's just some big questions about what is going to happen with the companies.
SLOBOGIN: What about the mixed economic news this week? There's good news on jobs, but consumer confidence is down. What is happening there?
HAYS: In a nutshell, the Fed raised rates for the eighth time since last June, so obviously they think the economy is on track. On Friday, we got a great employment report, finally. Problem is, the pattern is the same as last year so far. Great jobs (INAUDIBLE). You have 274,000 jobs in April. In the first three months, things fizzling out. So Wall Street says, well, let's see what happened. The stock market ended flat on Friday. They don't know what to do. Should they worry about more rate hikes? Should they worry about a soft economy? Be happy about jobs? They are not clear yet. They are still betting, and they're not sure how it is going to turn out. SLOBOGIN: Well, Kathleen, you certainly can't cut it in the economy today if you don't get the basics in school. I'm back on the story about the new requirements for schools, and whether No Child Left Behind is delivering its promise. Right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I handed out the textbooks, I read the instructions out of the administrator's menu, OK, get busy. Kids were looking at me with blank stares. I said, what are you waiting for? And about a third of my students said, the answers. I know that the teachers are cheating, because kids have told me that's how it was done with their particular teacher.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SLOBOGIN: That's Julie Darmillo (ph), a middle school teacher in Houston, talking about the cheating scandal that hit Texas schools -- the birthplace of No Child Left Behind.
Now, central to that reform are tests administered to children to make sure they are actually learning what they're supposed to be, and they're called high-stakes tests, because there are serious consequences for school if kids fail. Thanks to President Bush, high- stakes tests will be the standard across the country by 2014. Supporters say it's high time that the schools were held accountable for what kids are learning, but critics are saying that the pressure is promoting cheating, it's hiding drop-outs, and it condemns some kids to failure.
It is the topic of the new "CNN PRESENTS" program this evening, "High Stakes: The Battle to Save Our Schools," by filmmaker Stanley Nelson.
Welcome back. I'm Kathy Slobogin, and we're ON THE STORY.
STARR: Kathy, you know, you talk about the Texas miracle, you know, this is all a result, the legacy of President Bush when he was Governor Bush of Texas, and it seemed to have worked well. And it seems now to be turning into a scandal. How did this happen?
SLOBOGIN: Well, it's awfully odd that a movement to instill accountability in the schools can end up with cheating, and what's happened here is that when then Governor Bush tried out this reform in Texas before he did it on the federal stage, there were these miraculous stories. Test scores were soaring, dropout rates were plummeting. In fact, they called it the Texas miracle, they called it the Houston miracle. Houston was seen to be the centerpiece of this, and former Education Secretary Rod Paige hailed from there.
And then it started to unravel. And we heard reports from, you know, whistle-blowers saying that in fact, the dropout rates that were reported to be so low were fraudulent, and that in fact dropout rates in Houston particularly were up to 50 percent. So it really called into question, what does it mean that test scores are soaring if half the kids are dropping out? And then late last year, as we were putting this documentary together, allegations of actual cheating were heating up, where teachers were being pressured by administrators.
Now, why the pressure? Well, part of the idea was that performance would be tied to pay. So a superintendent could get a $20,000 a year bonus if test scores would go up. But flip side of the coin, if test scores went down, he could be demoted or moved.
HAYS: It seems like this could also indicate too, a lot of the teachers just feel this is being forced them, and they feel somewhat cynical about these tests. Let's just pass it and let's get on with our life and do what we want to do.
But I think -- I haven't seen your documentary yet, but reading the scripts, the pressure on the kids, what the consequences for some of the kids is, is heart-breaking.
SLOBOGIN: It is heart-breaking. And of course, if this all works out well, it could be a great self-esteem booster for the kids. They learn the material, they do well. But what's actually happening in many school systems, particularly urban school systems, is that large numbers of children are failing this test.
We met one little boy in Florida, where you have to pass this test in order to get onto the next grade, Melvin Love (ph), who has been retained three times. And this is his story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have to get up at 6:00 o'clock and go to the bus stop at 7:15, get to (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Every morning, Melvin Love Jr. (ph) travels to school from the cramped apartment where he lives with his mother and three siblings.
Like every third grader in the state, Melvin must pass the Florida comprehensive assessment test, or F-CAT, to be promoted to the fourth grade.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is a lot of test-taking in school. We take tests every week and I don't like it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What Melvin really doesn't like are the consequences of his test scores.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When I got my last report card, it said on the thing that I am retained in third grade.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Most third graders are 8 or 9 years old. But Melvin is 11. That's because he has been held back three times.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tell me the life span of a star fish. Average life span. Melvin.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Seven.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Melvin is a student who I think could have handled fourth grade. He is at the top of our class. If a teacher would have had a say, he would have been in the fourth grade, and he would be just fine in fourth grade. But now he becomes another statistic.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SLOBOGIN: Melvin is one of 45,000 third graders in Florida who failed the test in the last two years.
STARR: Kathy, there is a lot of support among President Bush's supporters for the No Child Left Behind program. What are they saying about all this?
SLOBOGIN: Well, that is very true. And you know, I don't think anyone we've talked to would go back and say that the old system worked. And we've all heard the horror stories about kids who get all the way through school and can't read. There needs to be accountability.
And I think that those supporters would say, the system was just rotten and produced rotten results before, and we need to do something.
What our documentary is saying is, but let's go out and listen to the people that are on the receiving end of this reform, the teachers and the kids who are actually experiencing this.
One anecdote I have to share, a third-grade teacher who said that her third graders were tested 27 times in one month, and by the time they got to the big test, where they -- which determined whether they were going to move on or not, they were crying and stressed out, bawling their eyes out. So these are 8-year-olds.
STARR: No matter where you stand on this issue, your heart just goes out to these little kids.
Well, from No Child Left Behind to a medical mystery some are calling a miracle, that played out in Buffalo, New York this week. A firefighter, brain-damaged and unable to speak, suddenly was able to converse with his family after nine-and-a-half years of silence. Mary Snow is back on that story after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LINDA HERBERT, DONALD HERBERT'S WIFE: To speak to and to be recognized by my husband, their father, after nine-and-a-half years was completely overwhelming.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
STARR: Linda Herbert saying it was overwhelming when her husband, a brain-damaged firefighter, broke a nine-and-a-half year silence and spoke to his family. Herbert was gravely injured in the line of duty, after a roof collapsed, and he went without oxygen for 10 minutes.
CNN correspondent Mary Snow now joins us in New York. Mary, this is just an incredible story. What is his condition now? What's going on?
MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Barbara, it really is amazing, and he spoke, Donald Herbert spoke last Saturday for a 14- hour spurt. Now, since then doctors say he has not been as lucid as he was on that day. However, they say that he has been able to respond since then. That he has, at times, been able to speak in sentences. So they are hopeful that he will continue to make progress, although he certainly isn't in the same shape that he was last weekend.
HAYS: So Mary, tell us a little bit more about his condition, why he languished, and what it was that doctors finally did that sparked this ability to speak?
SNOW: Well, Kathleen, he had been able -- he was in a coma first, for almost three months, and then after that, he was in what some doctors describe as a minimally conscious state, where he was able to respond on some levels, but he was not able to speak. He was able to walk, as you saw in that videotape a couple of minutes ago, and respond in terms of following commands.
Now, the doctor who has been treating him most recently said he took over the case about three years ago and started trying various different treatments. About three months ago, he decided to change his medications, and what he did was put together a cocktail of drugs -- a drug for Parkinson's, a drug for attention deficit disorder, and an antidepressant. And this cocktail was given to Donald Herbert about three months ago. The doctor expected some changes in about six months. And then he really says that that combination of drugs helped stimulate neurotransmitters in his brain, which he credits with helping him.
But also, you know, the doctor made a very strong point of saying, it was also the persistence of Linda Herbert, Donald's wife, who would not give up, even though she was told at various points there is no hope. He said, he was really impressed with her and her persistence to go forward and try different therapies.
SLOBOGIN: Mary, what is the difference between the state of Donald Herbert and that of the recently famous case, Terri Schiavo, in terms of what was going on in their brains?
SNOW: Yeah, a lot of questions about that, because Terri Schiavo's case was so closely watched. And what doctors were saying is that Terri Schiavo had been in a persistent vegetative state. Now, Donald Herbert's doctors said that he was like that state, but there was a big difference, because he responded, as compared to Terri Schiavo, and doctors have said that she did not respond. One other thing that doctors have been talking about this week is that they've been able to make a better determination of patients who they believe may respond, as opposed to those who they believe will never be able to respond because of the extent of the brain damage.
STARR: Well, I suppose, Mary, for families out there, that is really a key question. Is there a sense that there are other patients out there like this young man, who may be able to respond in the future with some kind of treatment?
SNOW: Yeah. It certainly is a big issue. And a number of doctors we spoke to, including Donald Herbert's doctor, said this week that there could very well be patients out there in nursing homes who are not getting this kind of treatment. Perhaps patients who people have given up on, and may very well be able to respond to some sort of medication.
And because these cases are so rare, it's really one big issue is that doctors are saying they really need to study these cases more often, and just really know more about the brain and study how the brain works.
HAYS: Mary, just give us a glimpse, though, of the moment when Donald Herbert spoke to his son. His father went into this state, what, when he was 3 years old, and they spoke for hours. Tell will us about that.
SNOW: Yeah, if you can imagine, this little boy, the youngest of four sons, 3 years old when his dad was injured. Donald Herbert, apparently when he woke up, only had a long-term memory. So when he saw his now-teenage son, said, this can't be him, according to his family. And this little boy had 14 hours, they said Donald Herbert didn't want to stop speaking, he didn't want to go to sleep. But this little boy had this one day with his dad, where he was able to finally be recognized. And as Linda Herbert said, it was just really overwhelming.
STARR: Overwhelming, and just an amazing story. We're back on our stories after this.
ANNOUNCER: A boxing legend's daughter pens a book. "What's Her Story?" More when we return.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Rasheda Ali, "What's Her Story?" inspired by her father, Muhammad Ali's daughter has written a book called "I'll Hold Your Hand So You Won't Fall," to help children understand the effects of Parkinson's disease.
RASHEDA ALI, AUTHOR: I want to have other families out there, because I know when my son asked me, why is poppy shaking? I know I wasn't the only mom that was asked that question. I was perplexed, to be honest with you. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As a child in Illinois, Rasheda barely knew her famous father. As an adult, they have become much closer. She lives in Las Vegas, where she works as an actor and raises her two sons.
Muhammad Ali announced in 1984 that he had Parkinson's, a disease that affects more than one million Americans.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
STARR: And of course, happy Mother's Day, mom, and to daddy, for making the best decision 55 years ago.
HAYS: And happy Mom's Day to my mom and to my sister-in-law, Teresa (ph), who is a new mom again this week.
SLOBOGIN: And I've got to second that emotion. Happy Mother's Day to my mother if you are out there watching.
SNOW: My mother has always been my role model, and a special day for her.
STARR: Thanks to all of my colleagues and our mothers, and thank you for watching ON THE STORY. We will be back next week. At 12:00 noon Eastern, "LATE EDITION" with Wolf Blitzer. Amongst Wolf's guests, a top International Atomic Energy Agency head, Mohamed ElBaradei. Straight ahead, "CNN LIVE SUNDAY."
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