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The Van Jones Show

One-On-One With Jane Fonda; One-On-One With 2020 Presidential Candidate Deval Patrick; Interview With Bill Oakley, Former Writer Of "The Simpsons". Aired 7-8p ET

Aired November 23, 2019 - 19:00   ET




VAN JONES, CNN HOST: Good evening, welcome to "The Van Jones Show". We've got a great show tonight Actress Activist and Living Legend Jane Fonda we'll be here tonight. Also newly announced Presidential Candidate Deval Patrick also will be here on "The Van Jones Show". So we've got to have a great time.

Let's first - let's talk, well look this week Washington has been completely embroiled in this whole impeachment drama. You've got to listen, our elected leaders they sit there in the same room listening to the same witnesses for hours and hours and hours afterwards it's like the two sides were watching two different movies. Okay, people just do whatever they want to see they hear what they want to hear.

Trump's Republican defender sees a conspiracy to take down a President. In their minds Democrats mainstream media and the deep state are all in cahoots just to get rid of Donald Trump. And they focus only on the evidence that backs up that point of view meanwhile the Democrats see a President whose totally out of control abusing his office letting Giuliani run amok holding up funds risking the lives of Ukrainians all just a smear Joe Biden and to help his reelection. And we focus only on the evidence of that but this debacle goes a lot deeper than that.

There was a time when everybody knew when people at their backs against the wall people like the Ukrainians, people like the Kurds they can look to America for hope and for help. I'm not sure that's true any longer and listen awful feeling and that's why in regards of what you think about impeachment, every American should feel let down and disappointed by the way the White House is treated the Ukrainians and that includes Republicans.

Not just for the rich the Democrats were upset about but let's face it the people who voted for Trump they knew they were getting a disruptor a norm buster that's kind of part of his stick and Republicans signed up for a certain amount of rule breaking when they nominated the guy.

But they didn't sign up for American betraying our deepest principles, abandoning our closest allies, violating our sacred honor. Many conservatives still think of America as Reagan's shining city on a hill. They still see America the beacon in a bastion of freedom and those Ukrainians on the front line are freedom fighters.

Now there will be a lot of corruption over there that's true but you have real people risking their lives losing their lives on the frontline promoting democracy and trying to stop Putin from expanding his power. Don't forget how important that is?

World War II started when a bunch of strong men started invading our neighboring countries gobbling up territory that wasn't there's. Freedom barely survived then in Europe and it might not survive now and that's why when America promises to send aid to freedom fighters not one dollar should be delayed not even for a day.

And the White House should not be playing politics with the lives in the liberty of a free people. That's one principle that both parties should be firm and united on. So I don't know honestly how this impeachment drama was going to end but the message truth is this, it's going to be messy and I wanted to find out how American voters are thinking about this stuff.

So I went back to Gettysburg Pennsylvania the side of the Historic Civil War Barrel to happen there, not gone there before 2016 before that election, I thought things couldn't get worse. I went back and here's what some smart women across the political spectrum think about the Trump Presidency and the impeachment hearings take a look.


JONES: Who here voted for Donald Trump? Two. Who here voted for Hillary Clinton? One. Who here voted for someone else?


JONES: And Bernie and what about you?


JONES: Evan McMillan? Let's talk about the impeachment. Who here is in savor of the inquiry going forward? Wow! Now this is going to be interesting. Each who actually agree.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But I'll bet you for different reasons.



JONES: Why should the impeachment inquiry go forward from your point of view?

SALLY, WROTE-IN BERNIE SANDERS IN 2016: Because he broke a law.

JONES: Which law?

SALLY: The use of United States military funding and international aid in exchange for shades of Watergate investigate Joe Biden, I mean it doesn't that you guys back to the Nixon era doesn't it? I don't know if any of you remember that or not? But I certainly remember Watergate and that was over an investigation into the other party.


AMY BETH, REPUBLICAN: His rivals since 2016 there's been impeach, impeach, impeach to several different attempts and its fired the base up and we are saying back we're proud of our President and looking for another dead end and that's what will happen.

SARA, DEMOCRAT: But I feel like there's very little disagreement or disbelief that there was some phone calls that transpired like I think he's acknowledge that he said yes I had those conversations.

BETH: He released the transcript site which I think that was very telling.

SARA: Do you not think that is a problem for democracy is that okay to continue if that is a Democratic President who does that against a Republican is that then okay?

BETH: I am proud of my President and I do believe that what happened was impeachable.

SARA: That wasn't the question what I asked you are do you not think that that behavior is a threat to our democracy?

BETH: I believe that is not a threat to our democracy and there was nothing done that is impeachable I really truly do. I have very little belief.

SARA: Even if he's impeached who actually be removed from office but what I do know is that the actions that he took those actions to me are dangerous for the continuation of our democracy as we know it.

RHONDA, REPUBLICAN: I'm really tired of the word impeachment. Turn into something else let's come up with another word for it I don't care really just tired of that word. I mean if it's not one thing they're going to find something else to impeach him four it's ridiculous.

JONES: So you two were very concerned the last time I saw you.

SALLY: And to allow somebody like Trump talk about women and minorities no matter whether you say he's the lesser of two evils or not to allow a man like that to represent our great country is a sin.

JONES: Has it been worse better or about what you expect?

SALLY: What I expected and worse.

SARA: And a lot of ways it's really bad and it's worse. See the immigration, white supremacy groups coming out and feeling like they have more of a voice. JONES: So you were - you kind of - you have problems with Trump you had problems with Hillary you held your nerves you voted for Trump but you basically feel okay with him at this point.

RHONDA: I'll stick with what I said the first time around. I'm having faith that buried beneath all this crap that he's saying that he spews out of his mouth that's not really who he is. I wish we would've like the slate clean and started over. But I'm happy to see that other world did not blow up. So that's a good thing I don't agree with the immigration I think that separating your families a horrible thing I am happy the unemployment is down.

JONES: What could Trump do to lose your vote?

RHONDA: Something super crazy. I mean I know you think it already knows a lot of super crazy. I know he says a lot super crazy things.

JONES: What can you do to secure your vote to Trump?

RHONDA: I don't know. I'm just not there yet.

JONES: Well and you voted for Trump and actually were part of the campaign?

BETH: Correct. I've really have been so incredibly proud of the President for several different reasons I'm a business owner and I believe he has done for the middle class. And then in turn done for small business has allowed my business to grow. And also allowed me to hire more people where I was really at a standstill.

I love how faith based he is and how he is actually leading through prayer and talking about the Lord on a regular basis. And he cares about the unborn children and I do pray for our President and I pray for our country and our services people.

SALLY: I do find it harder to even want to find the common ground. I find that I get angrier. I find that when I hear somebody say Donald Trump is a Christian or whatever that makes me angry because if the gap is just too wide between what we see and do and say. And the Christian principles that I was raised with its harder now than it were in 2016 for me.

SARA: I have a very hard time with Donald Trump saying he's a good Christian and with a lot of the supporters saying they're good Christians who think it's okay to put people in cages at the border. Jesus was a refugee. The picture that has been painted by many of these people that read that all the refugees or people that come here illegally are all bad people and they're criminals it's like one percent of those people are bad people.


EMILY, VOTED FOR EVAN MCMULLIN In 2016: We can't take everybody that sad you know that's idealism. I'm a realist. I'm a Christ follower I try to do my best but the end of the day I lock my doors at night. I do that to protect my family so why should our country be any different?

JONES: I thought you found what you think about this conversation?

RHONDA: I only frowned about your one comment where you said painting the any immigrants or refugees as bad people when it's only one percent. Who is painting? I mean I don't feel like immigrants are bad people.

He doesn't paint them as evil horrible people that are not what it does. It says if you're going to come - he didn't say every immigrant that's coming into this country is a rapist and a drug dealer

SALLY: He kind of did.

RHONDA: Kind of?

SALLY: Yes. And some person in the United States that's really not okay.

SARA: I think there was an implied. I felt there was implied reference.

JONES: You're very confident about 2020 you very confident that you're going to be celebrating in November and celebrating in January.

BETH: Yes I'm not worried about one of the Democrat candidates beating President Trump not one. I really have I watch the news I make sure that I'm as up to date as possible and I just don't think one has the energy of the momentum that he has.

EMILY: I might be one of those ones that's a non-vote this time around I probably cannot write vote for Donald Trump. I can't see him in the White House again. I do like a lot of things that Amy Beth said about things that he does stand for but I cannot Rob Peter to Pay Paul I cannot stand. Some of the things he said and done so much that I could not vote for him but at the same time I'm still conservative. So I couldn't vote for someone that doesn't check those boxes as well.

JONES: What if Biden gets a nomination and it is Biden versus Trump. This time do you vote for Biden or do you write in Bernie?

SALLY: I would vote in Biden. If he is the only choice against Donald Trump then yes I will vote for him and hope to God that we continue on the path that we know from Bernie.

SARA: Joe Biden will do very well in Pennsylvania but I think a lot of progressive younger Democrats even independents see Joe is that kind of establishment candidates still that really we're trying to get away from. That's why Donald Trump was elected he was not the establishment Republican candidate and I think that's what a lot of Americans are still looking for a change.


JONES: More importance is backing now. Coming up another smart woman and a Hollywood legend Jane Fonda is here she's going from the screen to the streets even to jail to do something about climate change. We're going to find out why when we get back.



JONES: All right, listen young leaders in this climate fight are now getting help from an American icon. She's an Oscar winning actress she's also a lifelong activist and now she's leading the Fire Drill Friday's Movement on Capitol Hill getting arrested and she demands action against climate change please welcome to "The Van Jones Show" a legend Jane Fonda. Good to see you. It's amazing.

JANE FONDA, AMERICAN ACTRESS: Yes, see they're young they know.

JONES: What do they know? What these young people know?

FONDA: They know that we're facing a crisis and that their future is in danger. Do you know I'll be dead but their future and they're saying why should we deal with this problem all by ourselves come on where the adults?


JONES: You know you're fired as coming through--

FONDA: That's beautiful fire. That fire is coming through and that passion is coming through. But listen, you're an Oscar winner you have a TV show on Netflix is taken off. You put a pause on all that and moved to Washington D.C. and going to jail. You could drive the people out of jail? Why are you so passionate and you're willing to go to jail every week on this issue? Why are you?

FONDA: I've read about Greta Thunberg and yes she's on the spectrum. She has asked burgers and she's called out her super power. And she's right, there's something about the way she focuses and talks about this crisis. She studies, she's a science nerd. When she studied the science and saw what was happening she realized that this is we're in the middle of a real crisis.

And then she looked around and nobody was behaving appropriately it's so traumatized her she stopped speaking. And when I read that I knew that Greta had seen the truth and she said we have to get out of our comfort. We have to stop behaving like business as usual and so I thought well you know being a celebrity I have a big platform especially with the hit series behind me.

I've got to do more than driving an electric car and get rid of plastics and all that. That's a good starting place but I've got to do more. And that's when I decided to move here. For forty years we've been polite you know we've petitioned and asked and written and March but we now have to go further because we weren't being heard.

It wasn't making enough of a difference and we're running out of time which means that we have to engage in civil disobedience and risk getting arrested and this has to become the new normal.

JONES: Well listen, I understand--

FONDA: You're nodding.

JONES: These every people - they're finally hearing somebody saying what they - what somebody should have say--

FONDA: And you know what is so great, it is transformative, that a lot of the people who were coming have never done this before it's just so exciting the entire writer from a Brazen Frankie got arrested last week.

JONES: Oh, God.


JONES: I'm adding this two and had my time in - but usually you know they kind of walk you a couple blocks away and then they - released it with you they put show but in jail for all of the for a whole day over-night. What did you experience behind bars for this cause and what did you see and learn while you were literally locked up for this?


FONDA: Well first of all I'm white so I benefit from white privilege and I'm famous. So I was alone in the cell and there was a guard outside my cell which I thought was really interesting. I mean the only people that can get in our guards. So you know my experience doesn't isn't like other people but the most disturbing part of being there was the cries of desperation just words tumbling out of - you couldn't even understand people just howling in desperation and banging their cell doors and banging their cell walls.

And it was clear that we are not as a nation providing safety nets to people who need them. We're not providing mental health services to people instead we lock them up and that's wrong and it's only going to get worse as the climate crisis gets worse which it will no matter what we do so it made me really sad.

JONES: Yes. Well, you know for me I feel like we don't have any throwaway resources or species and I mean throw away neighborhoods of children either and I've always that we need--

FONDA: It's the same mindset.

JONES: It's the same mindset just this possibility that you can throw stuff away. You have a set of demands so tell us about those.

FONDA: Number one support the Green New Deal because there's no way that we're going to get done what needs to be done in the shrinking amount of time we have unless everybody sees something in it for them. So that means that we have to make sure that the people who depend on fossil fuel jobs are taken care of that they are trained with good union salaries while they're being trained that they have good union jobs. They can support a family and I know that they're pretty skeptical

right now. We've heard pledges before but that's what we're near the Green New Deal lays it right out there.

JONES: That you wanted?

FONDA: Justice and fairness with the transition from fossil fuel. So that's the number one demand support the Green New Deal. Number two no new fossil fuel expansion. If we don't keep one hasn't yet been released in the ground there's no way we're going to make the deadline and then the stuff that's already being tracked and mind and pumped gradually phase out over thirty years.

JONES: Let me ask you a tough question. When I look at the map now it looks to me there's going to be very hard for us to meet our energy needs only with solar only with the wind only the energy efficiency. What about advanced nuclear? Are we at a point of crisis now where we have to start looking at nuclear which includes though it's not a clean fuel at least it doesn't add more carbon is nuclear on the table off from your point of view?

FONDA: It's off the table as far as I'm concerned because I've spent a lot of time. I made a movie called "The China Syndrome" which exposes some of the problems. And there's still no way that we can dispose of the waste. But the biggest problem right now is what nuclear does to water? Water is going to become the new gold and the nuclear industry just like fracking uses humongous amounts of water and pollutes it and we can't afford to do that.

JONES: We can't afford to do that. I feel like we're in this in this trap because if 20, 30 years ago we had started moving in a cleaner direction we would have more options.


JONES: Now I feel like somebody you got cancer and you say well I'm just going to use you know vegetarian stuff. I'm not going to you surgery chemo well if 10 years later you haven't done anything now you may have to do surgery and chemo. We may have to do nuclear but let me just ask you one more thing that really inspires me about your house. They're so diverse and you have so many different kinds of people coming together including indigenous people. Why this so important the Native American and indigenous people be apart this movement before -- ?

FONDA: Well, look the climate crisis is not Democratic it doesn't hit us all in the same way. If you're rich and you live on a hill you're not going to be affected the same way than if you're black or indigenous in a place where the toxic waste is dumped.

JONES: But this movement has been disproportionately white wealthy people and you are being a part of changing that why this is so important to you? Why is this so important to you?

FONDA: Because the people that are the most vulnerable to the climate crisis and that are the most damaged by already by the fossil fuel industry in the petrochemical industry or on the front lines. And that's one of the great things about the Green New Deal. It calls for centering those vulnerable communities, communities of poverty, communities of color, the indigenous communities.

And they have to be front and center you know because we have to build a huge talent if we're going to do something that is so hard. You set it so hard we're telling the fossil fuel industry to leave what is that? $11 trillion dollars of unused fossil fuel on the ground we caught stranded assets that's going to take some balls to get them to do that. And that's why we need everybody.

JONES: Okay. I got a lot more to talk to you about when we get back including your take on the 2020 candidates. Advice to women are getting into politics who maybe here little bit from Donald Trump when we get back.



JONES: All right, we're back with the acting legend living legend Jane Fonda in the house talking about this climate fight. You got on the radar screen of President Donald Trump where you said you try to get attention you got the attention of the big guy here's what he had to say about you and this work.


DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: And they arrested Jane Fonda nothing changes are remembered 30, 40 years ago there is she always has the handcuffs on. She's waving to everybody with the hand cuffs.


JONES: So did you happen to - you are the radar screen for the President?


JONES: Okay. I think not, I think not. Okay, well, since you are on his radar screen he may be watching right now. If you had a chance to talk to Donald Trump seriously given anything that you said and given the amount of power that he has what would you say to the President of United States about the urgency of this movement?

FONDA: Yes, oh, Donald.


FONDA: I would get on my knees. Can I tell you what I wanted to do right after he was elected?


FONDA: Because I know him you see I wanted to get a lot of very beautiful women who are very smart about climate Pamela Anderson being one of them.


FONDA: And a few scientists and I wanted to go in and have us get on our knees and say to him you could be the hero of the world back to work. You could be the most - Jarred Kushner and he said well Ivanka is the environmentalists in the family. So he had her call me and I told her my idea and she laughed and she said let me see what I can do and I never heard from her again but you know I realize now he's a petroleum President.

His cabinet is a petroleum candidate they are so in bed with the fossil fuel industry that there's nothing that even Pamela Anderson could get out of the tunnel. There's no point. But I feel bad you know that behavior is the behavior it's the language of people who've been traumatized and you have to hate the behavior but don't hate the person you know I don't hate him. I feel sad for him and what he's doing to the world and to - is just criminal it's terrible but we have - there's more of us and we can make a difference.

JONES: Well listen, and I wouldn't give up and I wouldn't rule it out because - in terms of even moving the Trump White House I got a chance to work with them on Criminal Justice Reform and a beautiful woman Kim Kardashian went in there and they said that Trump would never move in and he moved.

So I think that that there is a possibility out there but it's going to take wisdom. You have been doing this for a long time. What did you learn in the 60s and the 70s as an activist? You became very controversial. You had a big come back. What did you learn in those days that you want these young people and know about being an activist support for change?

FONDA: Well first of all, I want you to know that I'm learning from them. And I mean the young people are inspiring me--

JONES: They're teaching me.

FONDA: --so I don't want to appear like I have anything to teach them. But what I learned is never do things as an individual. Always be part of an organization be part of a movement it's when our numbers are combined that we can really make a difference number one. Number two don't let the bastards get you down.


FONDA: I've been attacked and vilified more than most white people. I just wrote recently to Greta Thunberg don't let them get to you because it just shows that you're being effective and making a difference otherwise they wouldn't waste all this time and breaths attacking you.

JONES: You know, women are increasingly taken the reins, credit the young women you have, young women other stepping up. As a woman what advice do you have because that's a whole new set of challenges that the movement faces as well? FONDA: There are a number of reasons why women are in the lead? We take the brunt of the climate crisis. And on all kinds of levels including in our bodies because we have more body fat and that sequesters toxins and carbons which gets passed on to our children but also 80 percent of climate refugees are women but women are also on the forefront of the solutions.

Women have it in our bodies the sense of inter connectedness and the commons it's just in our DNA. And so this is a collective crisis it requires collective action and I think women get that--


FONDA: --in our bodies we get that.

JONES: Do you think that it in this country today now we had a very qualified woman Hillary Clinton ran for President. She won the popular vote didn't make into the White House. There now a bunch of women who are running. Honestly now are you seeing this country through it changes and where it has not changed can a woman beat Donald Trump in your view?

FONDA: Yes sure yes.

JONES: Tell me why?

FONDA: I happen to think I do not agree with Obama that this is not a time for bold ideas. I think this is exactly the time that people need to be brave and offer bold ideas just like Franklin Delano Roosevelt in the 30s in the face of the great depression it's why Donald Trump won you know Neal liberals like Hillary Clinton didn't have an answer for the people that are so hurting in the middle of the country Donald Trump you know whatever we think of him he had bold ideas which is less trash everything and stone all over in a way that I'm not going to tell you this but it's only going to help a really rich.

But you don't need to know that I'm going to be there for you know they were bold ideas and nobody else was speaking to them. I was all over the middle of the country before the election and there was no noise from Hillary so that was a big mistake.

JONES: So you think that a strong woman who's willing to bring bold ideas to everybody including heartland could actually win.


JONES: I will take your advice on that and I hope that the party takes your advice on that. We got Jane Fonda give her a round of applause.


JONES: Still on this fight. All right, coming up the Democrats faced off for another debate this week a new contender with not on that stage but he is here with us tonight Former Massachusetts Governor Deval Patrick is here to give us his take that's next.


JONES: We are - 70 days within Iowa Caucus but we still got some candidates who were jumping into the crowded field. One of them is here. He thinks he's got what it takes to unite the Democratic Party behind a hopeful message and then beat Trump in November. Please welcome back to "The Van Jones Show" the Former Governor of Massachusetts Deval Patrick in the house.

DEVAL PATRICK (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Very good I love it. I love it. I love it.

JONES: Well as you know you are one of my great heroes in American politics.

PATRICK: Takes one to know one.

JONES: Oh, that's very, very kind of you but I would say you were Obama before Obama I mean you really that he idea that you could bring people together on a hopeful message. But the last time you had joined on my show you said you saw some stuff in the party. You thought a little bit too much infighting not enough hope which you are ready to jump in at that point what changed to make you jump in this fight?

PATRICK: Well, you know first of all thank you for having me on.


PATRICK: I love your and have for a long time your engagement and your wisdom and your willingness to be open to the notion that somebody else might have a competing and better idea to get to the same goal.


JONES: Yes, absolutely.

PATRICK: And that's been very much on my mind and heart how do we make a bridge across to people who may not have the or share the same perspective we do because in this country our division goes deep and this President has you know seems to wake up every day trying to think how to make it deeper.


PATRICK: But these issues pre date him and when we come together there really is nothing that that can stop us. So this is how I thought about the opportunity more than a year ago. And I thought hard about getting in at that point because I think you know my wife Diane was diagnosed with uterine cancer two and a half weeks before we were ready to announce.

We celebrated 35 years of marriage in May and she is cancer free. So she is in great health and its huge blessing and relief and meanwhile the field has filled out and they have many of whom are my friends. And I've been talking with them and thinking and watching the development of the race. And it was apparent to me that there is still wide open yes. So what really made us sort of get off the dime is affected filing deadlines were upon us. We started last Thursday and then from New Hampshire to California to Nevada to Iowa to South Carolina every place I'm going and meeting folks who say welcome to the race. We're glad you're here. We want to know you we've been waiting for you and I know when they do I have to earn it.

JONES: Yes but you listen that's a lot of work and I got tired just hearing the states that you're visiting. What is missing in the existing field that made you think what the gap that you're trying to fill is?

PATRICK: Well first of all I want to be clear for me this is not about them. It's not about any other candidate and frankly it is not even about me. It's about how we use this opportunity of huge challenges and for once in a long time a Democratic Party that has the appetite to advocate for big ideas and as an opportunity to unite not just as Democrats but as Americans.

You know I describe myself as a pragmatic idealist. And that's what I brought to my work as a civil rights lawyer as a as a business lawyer as a business executive as governor. I've been in every place trying to do what I can to make you know capitalism function in ways that are fair to make government function in ways that are fair. And grow the economy out to the middle and marginalize and not just up to that lets--

JONES: You already sound different a little bit. It's a different note you're talking about growing the economy there has been a lot of talk about your taxing the people who've been benefiting from the economy and redistributing. You're talking about growing the economy is that one of the ideas that you think needs to be brought back in the conversation?

PATRICK: Well I think there has been a lot of important conversation about reform you know how we ultimately deliver healthcare that's affordable high quality to everybody everywhere? How we get a tax system that isn't as skewed? All of that is important. I have ideas around in fact I've done some of that.

But along-side the reform agenda I think there has to be an opportunity agenda as I describe that which is about creating new ways in this new economy for us all to participate in shaping our own future.

JONES: So you've done that stuff on the public side. As a government official you've also done on the private side.

PATRICK: That's right.

JONES: Now some people are going to beach up because you went to - capital we spent a whole bunch of time exactly you said, hey it took 2012 we were beaten up--

PATRICK: You did a good job. JONES: Exactly. But your role at being capital is a little bit different maybe Mitt Romney's role was. Can you talk a little bit about this being capital not going there?

PATRICK: I mean it is funny. I was Co-Chair of that campaign you should know in 2012 and I didn't buy it then and I don't now look. I think capitalism has a lot to answer for. I launched this business called an "Impact Find" bank capital double impact where we investing in companies for both financial return and measurable social or environmental impact positive because we're trying to show you don't have to trade return for impact. And that there's a way to think about long term value that is more a respectful and responsible.

JONES: Now Obama gave a little bit of a warning I think to Democrats and you know what you can get a little bit too activist little bit to left a little bit to Twitter focused. Do you think that there's a danger for this party in that regard? How do you Obama's most recent kind of cautionary?

PATRICK: You know the last thing I'm going to do is be a pundit on my friend Former President.


PATRICK: I mean look, I'm excited that the party feels to me sort of fearless about big ideas. Remember - I think it was in 2012 convention when I had a couple meeting minutes at the podium one of my points was a Democrats needed to grow a backbone and stand up for what we believe. I think that's important.

And as we've grown that backbone I don't think it means we have to you know cut off for ears. We have to be open to the idea that others have something to contribute to how we accomplish those good ideas because if you want change to last you have to bring other people in including people who may not already agree with you. And that's been my experience both in the public and the private sector domestic and internationally. And I don't think that range of experience is - can be said of any of the other candidates.

JONES: People there was a getting and you sounded very different than pretty much anybody else and so I think it's really good however we got this impeachment process going.


JONES: And that is drowning out everything you turn on TV is just the people I've never seen before talk about the stuff I don't understand so how is that going to have the whole impeachment process going to affect the race?

PATRICK: I don't know but I am you know this is a grave time in our country - you know removing a President through impeachment is no small thing. It's not a trivial thing I think it is enormously important that we're seeing house leadership treated soberly. And I think it is important to present to the public is tedious as it may sometimes seem to people. All of that evidence so that the public can sort out what the consequences should get?

JONES: Any predictions in terms of how you think things going to work out?

PATRICK: I don't dare.

JONES: Don't dare?

PATRICK: I don't know.

JONES: Okay.

PATRICK: But you know what pray for the Republic because the founders in there imperfect wisdom provided for situations just like this and processes just like this. And the only thing they didn't provide for are the unspoken rules of democracy right duty, integrity, decorum, restraint that's an expectation that - it's up to us to have and to impose on our elected officials. And I think that is certainly part of my not just expectation but my prayer for the folks who are in service today.

JONES: It's a party of prayers or a party of character and I am so glad you're part of this country is a part of this race and a part of the leadership hopefully of the countries we go for.

PATRICK: Thank you very much Van.

JONES: All right, now coming up there is no question the impeachment hearings have been animated but there isn't is there an actual link between what we're seeing in Congress and one of the most popular cartoons ever? One of the creative minds behind the symptoms is here to tell us about the connection when we get back.



JONES: All right, my next guest is a Former Writer and a Show Runner for "The Simpson" and he recently wrote an op-ed in "The Washington Post" titled "One of the defenses of Trump is literally a TV cartoon joke". Please welcome to "The Van Jones Show" Bill Oakley in the house.

Now, listen, I want to show this clip that you're referring to in the Op-ed from "The Simpsons" and we're going to talk about it.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Convicted of a crime I didn't even commit. Attempted murder honestly what is that? Do they give a Nobel Prize for attempted chemistry do they?


JONES: All right, so help me understand the way that you see that actual clip from side show Bob being used today. BILL OAKLEY, FORMER WRITER & PRODUCER, "THE SIMPSONS": So like I mean that's a joke obviously. Its extreme - an absurd to - some certainty designed to get a laugh. The thing is that there's so much insincerity and I believe the GOP arguments as much as there is in such a Bob's arguments that like I there's just kind of an endless torrent of nonsense. That being I would say probably the most egregious example.

JONES: And so the idea that he was attempting to do the quid pro quo but we didn't actually do the quo on the - that hold line reason?

OAKLEY: Right.

JONES: That actually get a chance to do it so therefore would nothing to see here?

OAKLEY: I find it rather laughable don't you?

JONES: Or it kind of makes me want to cry as well. But less do you think we're making this up I want to show you a clip of Jim Jordan who actually seems to be channeling your joke Jim Jordan.


REP. JIM JORDON (R-OH): When will the meeting happen again?


JORDON: You don't know who's in the meeting?

SONDLAND: Which meeting are you referring to?

JORDON: The meeting that never happened? Who was in it?



JONES: All right, in other words part of what makes that whole character work is that if somebody you look serious and they look like they're no they're talking about the kind of playing the part? They can say the most absurd things and get away with it in "The Simpsons" but it looks like we're starting to happen in Washington.

OAKLEY: It really works really well--

JONES: Why did it work so well?

OAKLEY: I think people anybody coming out with some degree of authority wearing a tie and a jacket they can say anything they want. And certain segment of the population is going to believe it because they already want to believe it perhaps is one reason. I think also that a certain segment of the population is gullible. And I think that playing to that is it is one of the last ditch desperation strategies the GOP is using.

JONES: I want to get your eyes on this as a TV producer. There's a lot of complex that the Democrats try to communicate. Are they doing a good job or not?

OAKLER: I think they're doing a fairly good job. I think that's the thing this is it's not that complicated. I mean this isn't like Watergate where we now we already know what kind of what happened? In Watergate the pieces of the puzzle we're coming out every weekend and there was also there were multiple different incidents that had to be - took many months.


OAKLER: This it's an incident that we all kind of know what happened. We've now had eight people testify to effectively the same thing. It's not that complicated but it's a little complicated. And that's the problem because of that what this ultimately is about as I'm sure we all know is not necessarily making it clear story it's convincing enough of the American public.

That what happened, it is to sway enough of American public that twenty Republican Senators might actually vote in this thing. The Democrats are trying to paint a very easily understandable narrative. And this is a fairly complicated subject but I think they're doing a pretty good job.

The Republican response is to just throw things right and left. Nine, ten different things crazy accusations things about Hunter Biden, things about Burisma, things about the whistleblower and it is hard to keep the stuff in your head.


OAKLER: That's the thing - there are so many things happening every day that even a person pays a lot of attention has a hard time remembering what happened a week ago.

JONES: Or sometimes a tweet ago because things--

OAKLER: Right.

JONES: I want to thank you for using an unusual skill set to help us understand a very unusual moment in American history. Get this brother a round of applause. Thank you for being on "THE VAN JONES SHOW". I want to thank all my guests. I want to thank you as well for watching. I'm Van Jones, peace and well for one another.