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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports
Prosecution Grills 14-Year-Old Murder Defendant; Study Sparks Debate on Whether Gays and Lesbians Can Become Straight
Aired May 09, 2001 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, HOST: Tonight, he says he didn't mean to shoot his teacher.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NATHANIEL BRAZILL, DEFENDANT: I was holding it with both hands, holding it kind of tightly, and that's when the gun went off.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Charged with murder, a 14-year-old could face life in prison. We'll have a live report.
Can gays go straight? Should they? We'll hear about the latest research, and then a debate. I'll speak live with the Reverend Jerry Falwell, who says he can convert gays. And Elizabeth Birch, of the Human Rights Campaign, who says Falwell is wrong.
And it's become a significant highway safety concern, but should the federal government ban the use of cell phones by drivers?
Good evening. I'm Wolf Blitzer reporting tonight from Washington.
He's 14 years old. He shot and killed his English teacher last year when he was only 13. Nathaniel Brazill is now on trial as an adult for first-degree murder. He insists he did not intend to kill Barry Grunow. The prosecution says he did. If convicted, he faces a sentence of life in prison. Today, Brazill was grilled by the prosecution, and that's our top story.
Let's go live to West Palm Beach and CNN correspondent Mark Potter. He's been covering the trial. Mark, tell us what happened today.
MARK POTTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, you said it already. The key question in this case: Was the shooting accidental or intentional. Today there was cross examination and it was a dramatic contest between a veteran prosecutor and a 14-year-old in adult court.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRAZILL: I held the gun up with both my hands like this. POTTER (voice-over): Nathaniel Brazill insisted the gun fired accidentally when he shot and killed his teacher, Barry Grunow. The prosecutor tried to prove he was lying.
BRAZILL: I pulled the trigger but I did not intentionally pull the trigger.
MARC SHINER, PROSECUTOR: Pulled the side back intentionally?
BRAZILL: Yes.
SHINER: Pointed it at the man's head intentionally?
BRAZILL: Yes.
POTTER: Brazill says he pointed the gun at Barry Grunow only to prove he was serious about wanting to see two girls in the classroom. Then the gun went off.
SHINER: What did Mr. Grunow do when he fell to the ground, Nate Brazill?
BRAZILL: What do you think he did?
SHINER: What did you do after he fell to the ground?
BRAZILL: I ran.
POTTER: Claiming the shooting was intentional, prosecutor tried to show Brazill had no concern for the teacher he calls his friend.
SHINER: You knew he was shot, didn't you?
BRAZILL: Yes.
SHINER: You didn't stop and try to help him, did you?
BRAZILL: I was scared.
SHINER: You did not try to stop to help him, did you?
BRAZILL: No.
SHINER: Drop to your and start crying?
BRAZILL: No.
SHINER: Did you drop the gun?
BRAZILL: No, I did not?
SHINER: Did you scream out for help?
BRAZILL: No.
SHINER: You just let the man die there? BRAZILL: Sir, I was scared. I ran.
SHINER: You did nothing to help that man, did you?
BRAZILL: I was scared.
SHINER: Yes or no, sir?
BRAZILL: No, sir.
SHINER: Nothing to help him?
BRAZILL: No.
POTTER: The prosecution contends Brazill fired the on purpose because he was angry with school officials. The 14-year-old repeatedly denied it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you intend to shoot Mr. Grunow?
BRAZILL: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you sorry you shot Mr. Grunow?
BRAZILL: Yes.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
POTTER: Late this afternoon, the defense rested. So now all the testimony, and all the evidence in this case have been presented. The jurors were told to return Monday for closing arguments and for deliberations on the fate of Nathaniel Brazill.
Wolf, back to you.
BLITZER: Mark, most legal experts insist this was pretty risky strategy on the part of the defense to put Nathaniel Brazill on the stand. How is it playing according to court observers over there?
POTTER: Wolf, I'll apologize for the noise here, there's a train going by. Most people seem to believe that the defense didn't have much of a choice. The defense claims that their only case is Nathaniel. They had no choice but to put him on. They really had very little else. The prosecution had a videotape of the shootings, a videotape statement, a confession and all they had was Nathaniel.
The defense lawyer says you either believe Nathaniel or you don't, and that is how you determine whether this was an accident or not. They say they had no choice but to put Nathaniel on the stand. And the defense attorneys say they thought he did pretty well although it was very rough questioning.
BLITZER: Mark Potter in West Palm Beach. Thank you very much.
Here in Washington, meanwhile, President Bush is praising the experience and character of his first eleven judicial nominees. And he's calling on the Senate to show good faith in the confirmation process. Let's go live to CNN White House Correspondent Major Garrett. Major, first of all, is there any controversy with these first nominees?
MAJOR GARRETT, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Not really, Wolf. You know, the number one priority for this White House is to get through this early first round of nominees without a lot of conflict with the Senate. And there are two names that really stand out and many lawmakers on the Senate believe it's shrewd packaging of these two lawmakers to sort of achieve this political goal.
One is Roger Gregory. He's the first African-American ever appointed to the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals. Who did that? President Clinton. Why? He did it in a recess appointment. After President Bush had already been declared the new president, he put him on the court. What did president Bush do? He reappointed him. So, first time in American history, according to the White House, that a president from a different party has accepted the nomination of a judicial appointee from a president of opposing party.
What's the other name? Terrence Boyle. First put on the circuit court by Ronald Reagan in 1984. In 1991, President Bush 41, the first President Bush, nominated him for the circuit court. Senate Democrats killed that. He's been sitting for years waiting for approval. Then Senate Democrats said we're not going to move forward with him. President Bush nominated him again today. Putting these two together is, in light of -- in the eyes of many Senate Democrats, a shrewd way to achieve what the president wants, which is early confirmations and a minimum of controversy.
BLITZER: Major Garrett at the White House. Thank you very much. Meanwhile, there's controversial research that was presented in an academic forum today, and it's reopening a sharp debate over whether gays and lesbians can go straight. More now from CNN's Brian Palmer.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRIAN PALMER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Nearly 30 years ago the American Psychiatric Association declared it would no longer consider homosexuality as a mental disorder. This year, the APA debates a controversial study by a psychiatrist who supported that 1973 decision. Dr. Robert Spitzer says some lesbians and gays have been made heterosexual through psychotherapy and religious counseling.
DR. ROBERT SPITZER, COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY: Many of these people that I studied -- I studied over 200 -- were never gay in the sense of being comfortable with their homosexual feelings. Some have been, but most were never comfortable with their homosexual feelings, and through a variety of change efforts, some with standard psychotherapy, some in ex-gay ministries, over many years, and usually a very gradual process, they did change their sexual feelings.
PALMER: Critics denounced Spitzer's study, saying he practiced bad science, basing his conclusions on short phone interviews with subjects, 66 percent of whom were referred by so-called "gay-to- straight" conversion programs. JASON RIGGS, NATIONAL GAY AND LESBIAN TASK FORCE: Well one of the problems with Spitzer's sample is that more than half of the people that he got to study were referred through ex-gay ministries. And it's not a surprise that an ex-gay ministries isn't going to turn over people who have dropped out of ex-gay therapy to a person doing study. So, that means the sample is skewed.
PALMER: Before publicizing the study, Spitzer sought comment on it from Dr. Robert Isay, a pre-eminent scholar on sexual orientation. Isay says he offered no feedback because the study's methods and its premise were flawed.
(on camera): Can you change sexual orientation?
DR. ROBERT ISAY, CORNELL UNIVERSITY: No. You can change sexual behavior. You cannot change sexual orientation, and this study does nothing, absolutely nothing, to suggest otherwise.
PALMER (voice-over): Spitzer's report got a lot of attention. But also presented at the conference: A five-year study by two New York psychologists of gay men and lesbians who have undergone so- called "conversion therapies." Its findings: 88 percent say the treatments did not work.
Brian Palmer, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: So can gay people change their sexual orientations? Squaring off: The Reverend Jerry Falwell and Elizabeth Birch of the Human Rights Campaign.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back. As we mentioned, a study presented today to the American Psychiatric Association says gay people can become straight if they try. Participants used counseling and other methods, although only a small number managed to change their so-called sexual feelings completely. The study itself is triggering strong feelings.
I'm joined now by the Reverend Jerry Falwell, he's chancellor of Liberty University in Lynchburg, Virginia. He's been a longtime champion against homosexuality. And from San Francisco, Elizabeth Birch. She's executive director of the Human Rights Campaign which represents gays and lesbians. Thanks to both of you for joining us.
And Elizabeth, let me begin with you right away. This study comes from a credible psychiatrist at Columbia University. What's wrong with his analysis?
ELIZABETH BIRCH, HUMAN RIGHTS CAMPAIGN: Well, a credible researcher who seemed to use not very credible methodology. As you pointed out in your lead up story, this sample is very, very skewed. Most of the subjects were supplied by these conversion therapy organizations, frankly, funded by organizations such as Focus on the Family and the Family Research Counsel. In addition to that, the researchers had an opportunity to subject this study to pure review and declined to. It hasn't really seen the light of day and there's been no opportunity for other psychologists and researchers and psychiatrists to really dissect this.
I think the methodology was very flawed, but let's just accept it at face value. This is the high-water mark of research after five years of intense funding of conversion therapy, and even in this study you only have 17 percent of men saying they went through a complete transformation.
I think sexuality is very complex, and that when it takes place in a highly-charged religious context, you know, people alter their behavior every day in the name of God. They become priests and monks and nuns, and indeed, I think that's what happened here.
BLITZER: Reverend Falwell, what about that? Do you honestly believe that people are not necessarily born gay or lesbian, but they just become it because they want to become gays or lesbians? A lot of experts say this is simply a biological fact.
REV. JERRY FALWELL, EVANGELIST, BROADCASTER: I do not believe that anyone is born gay or born an adulterer or born dishonest or whatever. I think we all are born with a sinful nature. because the...
BLITZER: Let me interrupt you, Reverend Falwell, for one second. Are you suggesting that to be gay is the same as being an adulterer?
FALWELL: All sexual activity, and I take this from the Biblical perspective as a born-again Christian -- all sexual behavior outside of the marriage bond between a man and a woman is forbidden of God, meaning that adultery is just as wicked in the eyes of God as homosexual behavior. But it's all sinful, and it's a chosen behavior. All human behavior in the moral realm is chosen.
Now, reflexes like blinking one's eyes or breathing are just that, they're reflexive. But all other behavior is chosen. Environment may have contributed a great deal, and so on, but the fact that 17 percent, I just heard, did in fact come all the way through and out is indicative of the fact that all could.
We have a home here for alcohol and drug-addicted men. We've had it for 42 years. We've been working for 45 years with gays and lesbians. And the first requirement is that a person must acknowledge that what I'm doing is wrong, and from their very innermost being, they need to want to get out. When they really believe they're wrong and need to come out, then through the shed blood of Jesus Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit of God, there's absolute deliverance. There's absolute reformation and change.
BIRCH: If I could just comment here. First of all, I continue to resent Reverend Falwell comparing gay and lesbian lives to sins within the Bible. And we all know the central message of the scripture is about love, and it is about acceptance. The fact is this: Reverend Falwell and no one else knows the basis for homosexuality. There have been credible well-grounded studies at the National Institute of Health and other major institutions, which seems to indicate that sexual orientation is rooted in biology, but nobody knows. And the real issue is: On what will we base the public policy of this country? And every single American should be treated with fairness and equality and dignity.
FALWELL: Elizabeth, I agree with that totally and entirely. But the issue is not -- the issue is not legal rights, civil rights. I agree with all of that.
BIRCH: I might add that I would expect Reverend Falwell to then support gay marriage. If he says that the only acceptable intimacy is within the bonds of marriage, he must come to the conclusion...
FALWELL: Between a man and woman.
BIRCH: No, that's not fair. You can't have it both ways.
FALWELL: Let's let the Bible teach us, Elizabeth. Well, I can have it the way the Bible teaches it.
BIRCH: I disagree with your interpretation.
FALWELL: And if you reject the Bible, of course...
BIRCH: No, I do not reject the Bible.
FALWELL: ... that is your choice.
BIRCH: I have always rejected your scholarship.
FALWELL: If everyone watching right now...
BLITZER: One at a time.
FALWELL: ... would read Roman's chapter one, and read the scriptural definition of homosexuality: Men with men working that which is that unseemly. Women with women, doing that which is abominable.
Read that record, and it's very clear that God forbids that. But God loves everyone, and God loves the gay, the lesbian, the adulterer, the dishonest person. We're all sinners and we all need a new birth experience. And without it, no one could honor and please him.
BLITZER: Reverend Falwell, stand by. I just want to ask Elizabeth a question, because we only have a few seconds left. Elizabeth, do you accept the notion that some gays and lesbians, if they really want to and go through some sort of process. can become heterosexual?
FALWELL: Absolutely.
BLITZER: Let me ask Elizabeth that question. (CROSSTALK)
BIRCH: May I -- may I -- excuse me.
BLITZER: All right. Hold on one second, Reverend Falwell...
(CROSSTALK)
BIRCH: Excuse me. I'm sorry.
BLITZER: Go ahead, Elizabeth.
BIRCH: Reverend, I think Wolf invited me to comment here. In fact, I think what happens is that sexuality is complex. I think some people are bisexual, and again, people can do anything if they absolutely believe that it's their way into the Kingdom of God. Reverend Falwell and I have fought for years over his scholarship in terms of the Bible. I think the only thing that really survives sort of a reverse engineering and analysis is Leviticus, and I think there were tribal reasons for those rules. I don't think Roman's has been translated accurately.
BLITZER: All right, Reverend Falwell and Elizabeth Birch, unfortunately we are all out of time. But thanks for joining us. This debate, obviously, is not going to go away with this study, and presumably, with any future studies in the short term. Thank you so much to both of you for joining us.
BIRCH: And there's been another tragedy at a soccer stadium. We'll have the story of this latest collision between sports and reality.
And a space tourist returns to American soil. We'll show you what he has to say. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back. In other news, as many as 120 people were trampled to death today in a soccer stampede in Africa. It happened at the end of a packed soccer match in Ghana, as spectators were trying to run from tear gas fired by police at unruly fans. Hundreds of people were injured. This was the fourth soccer disaster in Africa in the past month.
Just a few minutes ago, space tourist Dennis Tito arrived in Los Angeles. His return to the United States marks an end of his round- trip journey to the International Space Station.
Here's what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DENNIS TITO, SPACE TOURIST: I had no idea what I would actually experience in space. I thought I did, and I found that eight days in space was the most unique experience a human being could have.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Tito's six-day stay in space ignited intense controversy from NASA and others that his flight was a misuse of the multi-billion dollar space station.
Tonight on "The Leading Edge": Government safety experts say inattentive drivers cause more than 4,000 traffic accidents each day. While cell phones can be lifesavers, a congressional panel today looked at the risk they pose on the roads as lawmakers and witnesses exchanged horror stories about distracted drivers.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER (voice-over): Eating, drinking, reading, talking and talking and talking: all the ways we pass the time behind the wheel. But do they mix with driving?
ROBERT SHELTON, NATIONAL HIGHWAY TRAFFIC SAFETY ADMINISTRATION: To drive safely, a driver needs to pay full attention to the driving task. Even a momentary distraction can lead to a crash.
BLITZER: The agency responsible for highway safety is now investigating driver use of high-tech devices like cell phones, navigation systems, and computers that provide e-mail and Internet connections to see how much of a distraction they really cause.
But should the government step in to protect drivers from themselves? The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration says, not yet.
SHELTON: We believe it's premature to push for federal legislation in this area.
BLITZER: Still, Shelton says talking on cell phones while driving is a significant safety concern. He says it's the talking, even if using a hands-free device, that causes drivers to lose their focus.
The accident last month that critically injured model Niki Taylor renewed attention to the issue. Her friend driving the car blamed a cell phone for distracting him. But the cell phone industry says cell phones can also save lives.
TOM WHEELER, CELLULAR & INTERNET ASSOCIATION: The wireless phone is the greatest safety tool since the development of 911; 120,000 times a day somebody uses their wireless phone to help somebody else.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration estimates that driver inattention causes between 20 and 30 percent of all accidents.
Up next, one of you saw a very strange outline behind me during last night's program. I'll share that insight with when we come back and open our mailbag. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back. Time now to open our mailbag. Many of you are still reacting to the higher gasoline prices.
Petro writes from Maui: "We here in Hawaii have been paying $2.45 a gallon for the past year, and yet you never quote our gas prices."
Good point, Petro. Thanks for letting us know.
Jim from Florida has this suggestion on how to lower prices: "Do not patronize big oil, but only buy from independents. If this doesn't work, go on a strike for a month and don't buy any gas."
Finally, this observation from Tony about my location during the program last night: "In the top right hand part of the screen, the background contains a shrub that projects the outline of a wolf, at least the kind you would see in Little Red Riding Hood. Take a look."
OK, Tony. We took another look, and here it is. Is that a wolf? Tony, I'm thinking you may have too much free time on your hands, but thanks anyhow for watching.
Remember, I want to hear from you. Please e-mail me at wolf@cnn.com. And you can read my daily online column and sign up for my e-mail previewing our nightly programs by going to our WOLF BLITZER REPORTS Web site, cnn.com/wolf.
Up next on "THE POINT WITH GRETA VAN SUSTEREN," 14-year-old Nathaniel Brazill undergoes a second day of testimony during his murder trial in Florida. And the latest on San Francisco's deadly dog mauling case.
Thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. "THE POINT WITH GRETA VAN SUSTEREN" begins right now.
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