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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

Timothy McVeigh Asks for Stay of Execution

Aired May 31, 2001 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, HOST: Tonight, Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh gives his lawyers the green light to delay his execution.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This decision was not easy for Mr. McVeigh. He had prepared to die.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Does McVeigh have a case? I'll speak with someone who prosecuted him, Larry Mackey, and with prominent criminal defense attorney, Robert Shapiro.

Their father is dead. Their mother's in jail. Six children holed up in their Idaho home, with guns, and a pack of vicious dogs.

And, when a president's daughter has a brush, or two, with trouble, is it any of the media's business? Or yours?

Good evening. I'm Wolf Blitzer reporting tonight from Washington.

There was a dramatic development today in the case of convicted Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh. His attorneys emerged from his prison in Terre Haute, Indiana, to announce he's had a change of heart. He no longer wants to be executed, at least not in 11 days as scheduled. Attorney General John Ashcroft says the Justice Department will vigorously oppose any further delay in that execution. That sets the stage for a legal showdown next Wednesday before a federal judge in Denver, and that's our top story.

CNN's Susan Candiotti is standing by in Terre Haute with details.

Susan, tell us what's going on?

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Wolf.

To no one's surprise, especially given his disdain for all federal law enforcement agencies, convicted Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh has now filed for a stay of his June 11 execution, he is charging the government with fraud, and for withholding information from him and his defense team on purpose. The man who was prepared to die just a few weeks ago, isn't any more. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CANDIOTTI (voice-over): Asking to delay Timothy McVeigh's execution, defense attorneys portray this as a question of fairness, not an issue of innocence.

RICHARD BURR, MCVEIGH ATTORNEY: Well, the test of our system is whether we can provide fairness, and integrity for the people who may have done or are accused of doing the worst things we can imagine.

CANDIOTTI: The lawyers complained not only have the FBI failed to turn over all its documents before trial, it was still holding back information.

BURR: But it is quite clear to us, that people have been investigated carefully by the FBI and they have never produced one piece of paper, concerning those people.

CANDIOTTI: The defense was clearly upset about one document turned over only a day earlier. Government sources say it was an old FBI interview with investigator on McVeigh's own defense team, but in an unrelated case, that had nothing to do with the Oklahoma City bombing. For the first time, McVeigh sounded contrite toward the bombing victims when he decided to fight the execution date, that now awaits him June 11th.

ROBERT NIGH, MCVEIGH ATTORNEY: His decision in no way stems from a desire to cause these people any additional pain, or trauma.

CANDIOTTI: The Justice Department says there is nothing new in the document, to raise any doubt about McVeigh's guilt. It says it will fight to make sure his death sentence is carried out.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CANDIOTTI: Tonight, trial Judge Richard Matsch refused a defense request for a court order forbidding the FBI for interfering with a defense investigation, and he scheduled a hearing for next Wednesday, in Denver on that stay of execution, five days short of McVeigh's second date with the death chamber. Back to you, Wolf.

BLITZER: Susan, only five days away from that hearing, next Wednesday, he will only have five days to make up his mind. Any indication how long Judge Matsch may deliberate before deciding?

CANDIOTTI: We only know this: Judge Matsch has a reputation for not wasting any time, and with very little time to spare, he is likely to make a decision quickly, Wolf.

BLITZER: Susan Candiotti in Terre Haute, Indiana thank you very much.

Later in our program, we'll get two very different perspectives from former McVeigh prosecutor Larry Mackey and Criminal Defense Attorney Robert Shapiro. Meanwhile, in a New York courtroom today, prosecutors today wrapped up their case calling for the execution of Mohamed al'-Owhali. He is the Saudi and one of four people convicted this week in the 1998 bombings of two U.S. Embassies in Africa. He was found to have carried out the attack on the embassy in Kenya, which killed 213 people and injured thousands of others.

A delicate standoff in rural Idaho: a rundown house, inside, six armed-children. Outside, a large pack of dogs. CNN's Lilian Kim picks up the story, live in Garfield Bay, Idaho -- Lilian.

LILIAN KIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, deputies spent all day trying to coax the children out of the home. But, still, no progress. Deputies say their strategy is to be patient. They say they don't want to arrest anybody; they just want to make sure the children are in good care.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KIM (voice-over): Deputies say the six children holed up inside their home have guns and nearly 30 vicious dogs roaming on their property. According to neighbors, these brothers and sisters, aging from 8 to 16, have lived in seclusion for several years in primitive conditions.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They had to take care of each other and they wanted a simpler life. They wanted a life away from people, to hassle them. And they have to stick together.

KIM: So far, deputies have made only minimal contact with one of the children. The standoff began Tuesday when authorities tried to take the children into protective custody after arresting their mother, Joanne McGuckin, on charges of felony injury to a child.

SHERIFF PHIL JARVIS, BONNER COUNTY, IDAHO: The 15-year-old son took exception to something that was said or something that was done, and bolted to the house, and told the children who were still in the house to get the guns. We figure the longer they wait, the calmer they'll get and we'll continue to attempt to convince them we are here to help them, not to hurt them.

KIM: Deputies are trying to communicate with the children through a loudspeaker. Helping them, a 19-year-old sister, who lives apart from the rest of the family.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: As for the children's father, he had multiple sclerosis and died of malnutrition earlier this month. So, this family has been through quite an ordeal in recent weeks.

Reporting live from Garfield Bay, Idaho, I'm Lilian Kim.

Wolf, back to you.

BLITZER: Lilian, I understand there is a clergyman -- a local clergyman who has some relationship with these kids. Any sense of sending him in? Or having him establish contact with these people?

KIM: This pastor has tried to help this family in recent years and throughout this incident he has been talking to them, over the loudspeaker. But the children have not responded to his pleas or the pleas of friends and family.

BLITZER: Lilian Kim in Idaho, thank you very much.

Meanwhile in Northern Virginia, veteran FBI agent Robert Hanssen today pleaded not guilty to charges that he spied for Moscow. Hanssen is accused of selling U.S. secrets over a 15-year period. 14 of the 21 counts against him are "capital eligible," meaning conviction could lead to the death penalty. A trial has been set for late October.

Timothy McVeigh has a change of heart. Did the government deprive him of a fair trial? I'll speak with former McVeigh prosecutor Larry Mackey, and the man behind O.J. Simpson's dream team, criminal defense Attorney Robert Shapiro.

Also, presidential twins, caught, and caught in the spotlight -- is it fair? Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back.

Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh has had second thoughts, and his lawyers have now filed for a stay of his execution. They claim the government cheated him out of a fair trial by withholding documents. To help us follow the legal twists and turns, I'm joined from Indianapolis by Larry Mackey, the former federal prosecutor in the Oklahoma City bombing trials.

And from Los Angeles, criminal defense attorney Robert Shapiro. You may remember him from the O.J. Simpson trial. He's also the author of the new book, "Misconception."

Gentlemen, thanks for joining us. Larry Mackey, I want to begin with you. You heard what the defense attorneys say, they need more time to review these 4,000 pages of documents. Don't they make a compelling case to delay this execution?

LARRY MACKEY, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: I don't think so. The law is very, very clear, that there is a huge burden that they have to sustain, and I think Judge Matsch next Wednesday will tell them -- remind them of the law. It is pretty clear in the filings today, that they cannot point to any documents to draw into question the legitimacy of that jury's verdict.

BLITZER: What do you say about that, Robert Shapiro?

ROBERT SHAPIRO, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, first, I want to commend General Ashcroft for the stand he took last month. And what he said was the integrity of the system of justice was more important than Timothy McVeigh or any other individual. And I think that standard should still apply. If the defense has not had adequate time to review 4,000 documents, then I think it is proper they should ask the court and be granted the amount of time necessary for them to conduct their own review. I'm sure that Larry and General Ashcroft are very sincere in their professionalism that there is nothing in those documents. But the defense should have a chance to make their own determination, since we are facing the death penalty.

BLITZER: Larry, fair is fair, and the attorney general did ask for at least a one month delay if they say they need more time, and since the death penalty is such an act of finality, why not give them some more time?

MACKEY: It is not as simple as that, and time is certainly not irrelevant. But 30 days is sufficient time to review the kinds of material that are in question here. The attorney general gave us his report to American people last Thursday, and, after careful review, assured them there was nothing in there that was material to McVeigh's defense.

They are really asking for more than just time in which to continue that evaluation. They want this date put off indefinitely and they want an evidentiary hearing, in which they can explore or ask Judge Matsch to explore why it was the FBI took so long to disclose it. Those are entirely different questions.

And, again, I predict that Judge Matsch will fall back on the rule of the law, and see this motion for what it is and ultimately deny it.

BLITZER: Robert Shapiro, as everyone knows, Timothy McVeigh has admitted planting the bomb, killing 168 people, including a lot of children. These families -- family members of the victims, they were anticipating closure. Isn't it unfair to them to keep them waiting longer?

SHAPIRO: Absolutely. It is unfair. It is unfair that they have to be victims of the most horrendous mass murder in history. But, our system of justice works on balancing, and, we have to balance the rights of the victims, and the people who are suffering as a result of their losses with constitutional rights to due process. And to the integrity of the system.

And, General Ashcroft certainly has a lot more resources in being able to evaluate 4,000 documents, than Mr. McVeigh's lawyers do. And I think that, in balancing the two, that when we are dealing with the death penalty, that if the defense says they need a little more time, I think they should be entitled to it.

BLITZER: And on that point, Larry, if there was a mistake made here, it was a mistake by the FBI, in failure to provide all of those documents. If the families are going to grieve and are going to be unable to have at least some semblance of closure, shouldn't they focus their attention on the FBI for the mistake, rather than on the criminal defense attorneys who, after all, are simply doing their jobs? MACKEY: Well, they certainly hold Tim McVeigh responsible for killing their loved ones and that is paramount in their concerns and my concern as well. But the remedy for Tim McVeigh was the 30 days that Attorney General Ashcroft gave some a few weeks ago, so, there has been adequate time. That study has been done. Judge Matsch is familiar with nature of these materials, and if he thinks is there any reason that he needs more time, he will rule accordingly.

Again, because of what it is and more precisely, what it is not, that is something that draws into question, that verdict, Timothy McVeigh's confession, again, I think this will be over fairly soon.

BLITZER: Robert Shapiro, if Timothy McVeigh were your client right now, what is the main argument you would make to keep him alive?

SHAPIRO: I can't answer that hypothetical question, because it is not a case that I would choose to be involved in.

BLITZER: The arguments that you heard from his criminal defense attorneys, in saying -- asking for this stay, from your perspective, seemed to make some sense.

SHAPIRO: Well, I just -- I have been very complimentary of General Ashcroft and the stance he took, but there is nothing magical about 30 days. It could have been 25 days, maybe it is going to take 40 days, maybe it will take another 30 days for the defense to feel comfortable that they have had adequate time to review the materials, and make their own conclusions.

Their conclusions professionally may differ from the conclusions of General Ashcroft and his staff.

BLITZER: Larry Mackey, the defense attorneys came out of the prison today and suggested there still may be some person out there who was involved in this conspiracy against the Murrah Federal Office Building. If there is, wouldn't it make sense to at least try to keep Timothy McVeigh alive? Perhaps, he might have a change of heart and confess and point to a specific person?

MACKEY: Well, if they said that, they haven't read his book, because he made absolutely clear that he acted alone on the morning of April 19th to detonate the bomb that he had built ending the lives of 168 people. There will always be in the minds of some people, the wonders of John Doe II and the complicity of others.

But in the end, after working on that case for three years, after suffering through the courtroom through two trials, there is no doubt in my mind that everyone, criminally responsible for that act has been prosecuted.

BLITZER: We only have a second left, Robert Shapiro, but put on your legal expertise hat for a second and tell us, will Timothy McVeigh be executed on June 11th?

SHAPIRO: Well, I was asked this question when the execution was set for Wednesday, and it came out that documents were not turned over, and I think I was the only person who said he wouldn't be executed. My opinion remains the same. I think he is going to get a little more time to review the documents. And that the execution will be postponed again.

BLITZER: Robert Shapiro and Larry Mackey, thanks to both of you for joining us tonight.

SHAPIRO: Thank you.

MACKEY: Thank you Wolf.

BLITZER: A heat wave has California teetering on the edge of blackouts once again.

And the Bush girls get in trouble. Who needs to know? Stay wit us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back.

Police in Austin, Texas today cited President Bush's twin daughters for violating state alcoholic beverage laws. Questions about the incident remain off limits at the White House. As CNN's Anne McDermott reminds us, all first families struggle to retain a little privacy.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNE MCDERMOTT, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Being president: well, presidents will tell you, it's swell.

But first families don't always have it so easy. Ask Billy Carter.

Ask Roger Clinton.

But they said OK to the limelight; official offspring often do not. But the Bush girls don't have much choice, just as Teddy Roosevelt's daughter didn't have much choice, either.

HELEN THOMAS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS: Alice Longworth -- Roosevelt Longworth, of course, made a lot of news because she was smoking at about 18.

MCDERMOTT: Sometimes, attention equals adoration. That's how it was for the Kennedy kids.

Whenever we saw the children with the president, we could hardly resist writing about it. It conveyed such a warmth and wonderful feeling about family, and there was

MCDERMOTT: And sometimes attention is tough. Amy Carter was taken to task for bringing a book to state dinners, and Reagan's children raised eyebrows by dancing ballet and protesting their father's policies. But Chelsea Clinton was luckier. She was left alone.

LISA CAPUTO, FORMER PRESS SECRETARY. FOR HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON: But we really had ongoing conversation and dialogue with members of the national press and the White House press corps, and we really tried very hard to appeal to their humanity, and to them not as reporters, but as parents.

MCDERMOTT: The Bush girls were left alone, too, until recently. Well, actually, Jenna Bush is still left alone, by the University of Texas student paper. It's not, says the editor, as though she committed a felony.

MARSHALL MAHER, "THE DAILY TEXAN": We have quite a few students, and we have quite a few misdemeanors going around in this town, so...

MCDERMOTT: So, where were the Secret Service when alleged misdeeds were going down?

ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The Secret Service has one mission, and that's to protect their lives.

MCDERMOTT: Now when it comes to protecting a reputation, well, as one observer advised, pretend you're always being watched, because you are.

Anne McDermott, CNN, Los Angeles.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: More on the first teenagers top of the hour. Former President Ford's daughter Susan Ford Bales is among the guests on "LARRY KING LIVE."

Fallout between Ford and Firestone, the CEO of Bridge Firestone today asked the government to investigate the safety of Ford's Explorer sport utility vehicle -- specifically, a steering problem that he claims contributes to rollovers. The move comes a week after Ford announced it would replace Firestone tires on its vehicles over safety concerns.

The Centers For Disease Control reports an alarming increase in new infection rates, especially for young gay African-American men. Worldwide, AIDS has claimed 22 million lives, with 36 million more infected with HIV.

Tonight on the "Leading Edge," scientists have uncovered the fossils of what may have been the second largest dinosaur ever. The remains were discovered in Egypt's Sahara Desert. Paleontologists believe the 70-ton creature lived about 94 million years ago, millions of years before the more famous tyrannosaurus rex.

Rolling blackouts were averted in California today after warnings power supplies could fall short. A Stage 2 power alert was issued for much of the day due to unusually hot weather and increased demand. Power was cut at several businesses that voluntarily curtail energy during high demand periods.

As of today, your current version of Microsoft's popular Office software is obsolete. The company gave its new version, Office XP, a splashy debut at 100 separate events around the world. First-time buyers can expect to pay about $450 a copy. Upgrades start at around $240.

Up next, I'll open our mailbag. Many of you are outraged over the media's coverage of President Bush's daughters. I'll share some of that with you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back.

Time now to open our mailbag. Many of you reacted to our report last night on the latest troubles facing the president's daughters, and there are strong feelings. James writes:

"The Bush kids are none of your business. It shows how low you are in reporting the news. Disgusting."

Martha from Indiana, Pennsylvania writes:

"Can't we find something more newsworthy than the perfectly normal activities of the president's daughters? They only did what I did 50 years ago, when an ID was not necessary."

But Kathi from Port Townsend, Washington writes:

"It is becoming increasingly obvious that these kids have a problem that is being given real short shrift by the media. Had this been Chelsea Clinton, I can just hear the howling about morality and bad parenting."

Remember, I want to hear from you. Please e-mail me at wolf@cnn.com. And you can read my daily on-line column and sign up for my e-mail previewing our nightly programs by going to our WOLF BLITZER REPORTS Web site, cnn.com/wolf.

Please stay with CNN throughout the night. Art Linkletter is Larry King's guest at the top of the hour.

Tomorrow night, I'll get reaction to the McVeigh appeal from two people who lost family members in the Oklahoma City bombing. Until then, thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.

"THE POINT: with Greta Van Susteren begins right now.

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