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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

The Chandra Levy Investigation: Gary Condit's Attorney Says Congressman Passed Lie Detector Test

Aired July 13, 2001 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, HOST: Tonight, Congressman Gary Condit takes a lie detector test. His lawyer says he passed, but do these tests lie? D.C. police open a new angle in their investigation. What would Chandra Levy look like if she decided to hide her identity?

Beijing gets the summer Olympic Games, and the city erupts with joy. But what about human rights? We'll go live to Beijing.

And an exclusive look inside the mind of a spy. How could former FBI Agent Robert Hanssen, a man seemingly devoted to his family, his religion and his country, commit the ultimate betrayal? We'll ask his attorney, Plato Cacheris.

Good evening. I'm Wolf Blitzer, reporting tonight from Washington.

Democratic Congressman Gary Condit of California has taken a lie detector test. It was given by a private examiner retained by his attorney. On the key questions of whether he had anything to do with the disappearance of former Washington intern Chandra Levy, attorney Abbe Lowell insists Condit passed with flying colors. Still, many questions remain, and that's our top story.

CNN national correspondent Bob Franken is covering the story for us and he joins us once again live -- Bob.

BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, after a week of maneuvering, at about 5:00 p.m. Eastern, the attorney for Congressman Gary Condit three hours ago, called a news conference with a sudden announcement that the lie decor test that had been discussed all week had in fact been taken by Congressman Gary Condit, administered he said by a reputable polygraph expert.

It contained good answers, that is to say answers that were considered truthful to the three fundamental questions. Question No. 1: Did the congressman have anything to do with the disappearance of Chandra Levy? Did he harm her, or have anyone else to harm her in any way? And does he know where she can be located? He said he passed within .01 of a percent point, which is virtually a clear chart for Congressman Gary Condit. Those were the fundamental questions, and according to Abbe Lowell this should put things to rest, because enough is enough.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ABBE LOWELL, CONDIT'S ATTORNEY: There has to come a time where this vicious cycle of the media creating a hype for the congressman to do something, the police responding to that by asking him to do more, doesn't help find Chandra Levy. I mean, what else he could possibly do?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FRANKEN: Well, the police were not happy at all. They believe that they should have controlled the lie decor test and determine whether there were other questions that they could possibly ask.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ASSISTANT CHIEF TERRANCE GAINER, D.C. METROPOLITAN POLICE: Giving a polygraph examination where the police are not involved might serve a defense lawyer properly, but it's not the way the police would approach this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FRANKEN: And what about the Levy family? Their attorney Billy Martin had been the one who had originally put the pressure on for the lie detector test. He agreed with the police.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILLY MARTIN, LEVY FAMILY ATTORNEY: It seems that the congressman and his attorneys have snuck off to a private polygraph examiner and took a polygraph on his terms. Once again, it shows to us that the congressman is releasing information on his terms, and at the -- when he wants to release that information. We are wanting him to be fully cooperative, and not cooperate on his terms.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FRANKEN: And with all the maneuvering over public favor, public perception, the police are out in a variety of ways continuing their investigation into the disappearance of Chandra Levy. By now, the entire world is familiar with the pictures that show Chandra Levy, but the police say that they may want to have people look for possible disguises, in case she is hiding out.

So, they released some pictures this afternoon. You see them, pictures that show Chandra Levy with different hairdos, wigs, different hair colors, different hair styles, in the hope that perhaps she is alive, and in fact, has just decided to disguise herself.

They also were pursuing the more pessimistic scenario, that in fact she might be a victim of a crime, and might be dead. They were once again taking the cadaver dogs out to the reaches of Washington, D.C., looking at abandoned buildings. They are going to take them into parks in the area, looking for what they hope they don't find, which is the body of Chandra Levy. This is an effort that will probably take them several weeks before they are through -- Wolf. BLITZER: Bob, Abbe Lowell and his associates insist that with this passing of the polygraph that they commissioned, the case should be closed as far as Congressman Condit is concerned, but I take it, it is not.

FRANKEN: No, as a matter of fact, Police Chief Terrance Gainer in an interview with me tonight said that the possibility always remains that there may be more questions that they have for Congressman Condit.

BLITZER: OK. Bob Franken in Washington, thank you very much.

So, do lie detectors really get to the truth, or can they be manipulated? To find out, we are joined now by polygraph expert Ed Gelb. He is in our Los Angeles bureau.

Ed, thanks for joining us. And the whole nature of this polygraph that Congressman Condit passed, is it suspect because it was commissioned by his defense attorney?

ED GELB, POLYGRAPH EXPERT: Absolutely not, Wolf. The polygraphist in this case is an individual, Barry Colvert, who polygraphed in very sensitive matters and serious cases for the FBI. Why we should think one day when he's working for the FBI he's competent and ethical, and the next day when he's working the case through private auspices, that he is not competent or ethical is beyond me. The exam is the exam.

BLITZER: Well, so why didn't in order to remove any doubt whatsoever -- what was in it for Congressman Condit to do this exam with his own polygraph expert, as opposed to going to police headquarters and doing it through the framework of the police department?

GELB: Well, Wolf, there always is the possibility that if you are the attorney, your client may have been telling you one thing, but may not be able to pass a polygraph examination. So, rather than throw the dice, so to speak, and submit the congressman to the police exam, the attorney obviously thought it would be better to see if he could pass a polygraph examination, and submitted him to a qualified polygraph examiner.

BLITZER: Just to make sure there were no doubts. As you know, Ed, there are a lot of people who say that these polygraph tests are not very reliable, that pathological liars, for example, can take certain precautions and pass these tests, and as you also know, Aldrich Ames, the convicted spy, passed a couple of those polygraph tests that were administered by the CIA.

GELB: Well, Wolf, we sometimes don't really know what happens on the inside of the agency, the CIA or any other sensitive agency. And to say that somebody did or didn't pass may not be the exact answer. They may have overlooked a problematic polygraph examination, and the individual may not have passed.

But getting back to what's more basic: can you volitionally defeat a polygraph test? With a competent examiner, you're going to have quite a bit of difficulty doing that. I don't really see that the congressman has the ability to "beat," quote unquote, the examination at this point.

BLITZER: And very briefly, so you would move in another direction right now, since he did pass this polygraph test?

GELB: Well, Wolf, this is like the Ramsey case. There was an intruder theory that everybody short-shrifted, gave little attention to. Here we have a case that is now a couple of months old, the leads obviously get cold. If everybody was as concerned with someone other than the congressman, the investigation might have gone in parallel directions, and I certainly can't tell the police how to conduct an investigation, but it would seem that if the congressman has passed a polygraph test at this point, more effort should be placed into other methods of investigation.

BLITZER: Ed Gelb in Los Angeles, thanks once again for your expertise. We really appreciate it.

And now to the Olympics and the contest over who gets to host the 2,008 summer games.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUAN ANTONIO SAMARANCH, IOC PRESIDENT: The games, the 29 Olympiad in 2008 are awarded to the city of Beijing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: That word set off wild celebrations in Beijing, with hundreds of thousands showing their hometown pride. The streets were jammed, car horns blared and fireworks burst in the sky. Beijing was chosen over Toronto, Paris, Istanbul and Osaka.

CNN senior Asia correspondent Mike Chinoy is in the Chinese capital, he joins us now live where it is already Saturday morning.

Mike, this is a great moment for Chinese national pride, I take it?

MIKE CHINOY, CNN SENIOR ASIA CORRESPONDENT: That's correct, Wolf. More than anything else, the Olympic decision for most Chinese was about national pride. China has in some ways a big chip on its shoulder, dating back a couple of centuries in a sense that it has been badly treated in its relations with the rest of the world. It is a very deeply felt thing in the Chinese psyche, and when China lost its bid to host the 2000 Olympics and the IOC vote in 1993, there was deep, bitter disappointment.

And so, in many ways, this was about much more than sports, it was a kind of international referendum on China's standing in the world. And for many Chinese, the fact that Beijing has been awarded the Olympics is a kind of validation that China is an emerging power that it is now going to be allowed to take its rightful place on the international stage -- Wolf. BLITZER: And briefly, Mike, on the issue of human rights, is there a sense that between now and 2008, the human rights situation in China will improve as a result of this decision?

CHINOY: There is a big debate. There are those who argue that because the Olympics will force China to deal more with the rest of the world, expose it to greater international scrutiny, lead to tens of thousands of foreign visitors, that the regime will want to be on its best behavior and that will lead to, at a minimum, more openness in Chinese society, if not more political freedom.

Critics, however, argue that this decision does little more than to legitimize a repressive regime, and that that regime the government here will do whatever it takes to muzzle its critics.

It is, however, a fluid dynamic. It's going to take place over a period of seven years. It will involve a lot of interaction with the rest of the world, then it will come when China is joining the World Trade Organization. So there my be unpredictable consequences -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Mike Chinoy in Beijing, thank you very much

And this footnote: I was surprised by some off-the-record comments today from a senior Bush administration official who dropped by our Washington bureau. The official, who asked not to be identified by name, described U.S.-China relations as pretty good right now. I was surprised, because of the tensions that followed the forced landing of the U.S. EP-3 surveillance plane on Hainan Island.

Looking back at the incident, the official said, "There wasn't much long-term damage to the relationship, and not even much short- term damage either, though it was unpleasant for awhile." The White House, the official added, had been -- quote -- "truly neutral" in the weeks and months leading up to China's getting the 2008 Olympic Games. China, the official added, had made -- quote -- "a good case to host the games, and that's fine."

Coming up, it's a story of cloak-and-dagger, intrigue and a life built on deception. We'll go behind the scenes of the Robert Hanssen spy case in an exclusive interview with his attorney, Plato Cacheris.

And later, the Pentagon is ready to try again, building a missile defense system one test at a time.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. An FBI man sworn to serve his country, who instead sells it down the river. Robert Hanssen risked everything: his career, his family, his freedom, for reasons not so easily explained.

This week, I sat down with his attorney, Plato Cacheris, and two of his partners to get insight into this man who betrayed everything he seemed to hold so dear.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Gentlemen, thanks for joining us. And Plato, let me begin with you. Now that your client, Robert Hanssen has pleaded guilty, tell us why he betrayed his country.

PLATO CACHERIS, ROBERT HANSSEN'S ATTORNEY: That's a good question. The popular notion is that there were financial considerations as to why he did what he did. And I'm not here to disabuse you of that.

BLITZER: He did receive hundreds of thousands of dollars, plus additional hundreds of thousands of dollars that were promised. Was that the sole motivation -- greed?

CACHERIS: I wouldn't call it greed. I would call it financial necessity. That was a big part of the motivation.

BLITZER: When you say "financial necessity"...

CACHERIS: This is a man that's got a family, that has trying to raise and educate children, and he felt he needed money.

BLITZER: In 1979, when he began his espionage, that's when he decided he needed money? He couldn't make ends meet on an FBI agent's salary?

CACHERIS: Not in New York. And I doubt you could do it today in New York.

BLITZER: So you're saying that he wasn't make enough money. He had no alternative but to go out and become a spy?

CACHERIS: I didn't say that. I said that -- you asked me what motivated him, and I said that that was a big part of the motivation.

BLITZER: The other point, though, is that a lot of that money, we were told, went up going to a stripper. Hundreds of thousands of dollars perhaps -- cars, he lavished all sorts of gifts on her. That wasn't money he was spending on his family.

CACHERIS: Well, if that's what he did, that wasn't money he was spending on his family. But I'm not confirming any of that for you right now, Wolf. Those things have been said, and we'll leave it at that.

BLITZER: You represented Aldrich Ames.

CACHERIS: Correct.

BLITZER: Another spy for Russia and the Soviet Union.

CACHERIS: And you interviewed him.

BLITZER: I interviewed him at the Allenwood penitentiary, that's correct. The question is: These two men, both of whom you got to know quite well, what were the similarities in their motivation and the differences?

CACHERIS: Well, in both cases, financial considerations were very high. Differences -- I can't delineate any differences right now. I don't know whether Preston, who had Ames with me, can think of anything?

BLITZER: Preston, you spent some time -- obviously, in both of these cases, Aldrich Ames and Robert Hanssen. What were the similarities in their motivation and the differences, as far as you could tell?

PRESTON BURTON, ATTORNEY FOR ROBERT HANSSEN: I think Hanssen is more complex. I think Ames is -- motives had a lot to do with his financial needs and the financial needs of his wife. I think Mr. Hanssen's motivations and the reasons he did what he did are much more complex.

BLITZER: Elaborate on that, the complexity of his motivation.

BURTON: Well, I don't think it's appropriate for me in this stage to get into that. But I think that there are more reasons than just financial in this case.

BLITZER: There has been a lot of speculation that he had a premonition he was going to be arrested. Talk about that.

CACHERIS: That's true. He told us, and he wanted it known that he did have a premonition. And the day that he was arrested, he said he wanted to us tell the prosecutors in connection with our plea bargaining process that he expected to be arrested when he went there. Call it paranoia, call it whatever, call it a just a premonition. He did feel that he was going to be apprehended. And despite that, he went to the drop site, and was not surprised at his arrest.

BLITZER: So some people would conclude he actually, subconsciously, perhaps, wanted to be arrested.

CACHERIS: I think that's a good conclusion, Wolf. I think he would tell you that if he were sitting here.

BLITZER: But, Preston, you obviously worked on the Aldrich Ames spy case as well. The spy craft, the techniques that he used in dealing with the Russians, and before that, the Soviets, were pretty amazing, weren't they?

BURTON: They were. He did not have any direct meetings with the Soviets. He used all classic dead drop techniques, signals -- kinds of things you read about in a spy novels. And those were apparently successful for him in avoiding detection, by both Soviets, and by any American agencies that might be looking for spies.

BLITZER: John, you want to talk a little bit about the relationship that Robert Hanssen had with this stripper, Priscilla Sue Galey?

JOHN HUNDLEY, HANSSEN ATTORNEY: Well, again, we're all aware of the reports regarding that relationship and I don't think it's appropriate for us to sit here and either confirm or deny them or comment on them at this time.

BLITZER: Can you talk at all, Plato, about -- he seemed to have been a devout Catholic, a member of Opus Dei, a small group within the Catholic church, attended church, encouraged many of his colleagues to go to church. Yet at the same time, he was engaged in espionage.

CACHERIS: Well, and I would add to what you've just (UNINTELLIGIBLE) that he supposedly encouraged this young lady go to church, too. Do I think that that was genuine? Yes, I think he's a very devout, sincere convert to Catholicism. And that was one side of him.

What this case is about is another side of him. I think, unfortunately, a lot of people have their bright moments and their dark moments.

BLITZER: As far as you could tell, did he show any remorse whatsoever?

CACHERIS: Yes.

BLITZER: We haven't heard that.

CACHERIS: Well, that question was asked at a press conference we had outside the courthouse after the plea. Remorse is usually shown in court at the day of sentencing, and on January 11th, 2002, I think he will express his remorse. To us, he has expressed his remorse. And by doing what he's doing -- pleading guilty, agreeing to a sentence of life imprisonment, which is no big bargain -- I mean, it isn't the death penalty, and of course, that's significant. But he has -- he is paying a price for what he has done.

BLITZER: Is he sorry that he got caught or is he sorry he was engaged in the espionage over those many years?

CACHERIS: My opinion, he's sorry he was engaged in the espionage. He went, as I said earlier, to this site expecting to get caught. He could have taken a plane to Moscow, but he didn't.

BLITZER: The family -- his wife, six children. I'm sure a lot of our viewers are interested. What happens to them? The pension will be there, but that's not a whole lot of money for a wife and six children.

CACHERIS: No, that's true. It's not. The family has been extremely supportive of their -- her husband, their father. They have expressed great support of him. The wife, Bonnie, visits him once, twice a week. Is that right? Twice? Twice a week she goes to see him.

And so, what happens to them, they will somehow survive this. They have shown resilience, and they are -- they are going to survive this, in my opinion.

BLITZER: Don't they feel betrayed as well?

CACHERIS: That has not been expressed to us, Wolf, whether they feel betrayed. Of course, I think they were originally in a state of shock when this arrest occurred.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: And this footnote: During the interview, Cacheris declined to discuss details of the damage Hanssen did to U.S. national security.

Inside this Washington hospital, seven tiny siblings are getting around-the-clock care. We'll have the latest on the D.C. septuplets. And surprising news about the president's pick to head the FBI: Will today's revelation affect Robert Mueller's nomination?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. In other news tonight, doctors at Georgetown University Hospital here in Washington have their hands full with seven tiny newborns, the nation's second surviving set of septuplets. The five boys and two girls were delivered by caesarean section last night and weigh a little more than 2 pounds apiece. All but one are on ventilators. Their mother, who prefers not to be identified, is in good condition.

Encouraging progress tonight for Jessie Arbogast, the boy who was mauled by a shark off the Florida Panhandle. He's in a light coma, but doctors predict slow, steady progress in the coming months. Jessie has received a steady stream of support from well-wishers. A 7-foot bull shark attacked the 8-year-old last week, severing his arm and taking a chunk from his thigh.

President Bush's pick to head the FBI has prostate cancer, but doctors say they expect a full recovery for Robert Mueller. Surgery will take place within the next 30 days. The cancer was discovered in April, before his nomination. The Senate released papers revealing Mueller's illness today as part of his confirmation process.

Tonight, on the "Leading Edge," the Pentagon is stepping up the pace to get a working missile defense shield by 2004 this. This weekend, a missile will be fired toward Hawaii and an interceptor launched from the Marshall Islands with a planned collision in space. Out of three earlier tests only one has worked.

In just a couple of hours, Space Shuttle Atlantis is set to dock with the International Space Station. The crew is bringing a new airlock chamber that will allow astronauts to use their suits for spacewalks. Right now, the station's Russian-made equipment does not match up with their suits.

Up next, I'll open our mailbag. Many of you reacted to my interview with John Walsh, the host of "America's Most Wanted," and his theory about a serial killer in the Chandra Levy case. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. Time now to open our mailbag. The Chandra Levy investigation dominates your e-mail. Rose from New London, Connecticut writes about my interview with John Walsh of "America's Most Wanted." "Having an affair or two does not a killer make. Having several interns fitting the same profile is suggestive of a serial killer. I think Mr. Walsh is correct."

David from Homestead, Florida: "It is obvious that Congressman Condit has something to hide. The only question is affairs or murder."

Remember, I want to hear from you. Please e-mail me at wolf@cnn.com. And you can read my daily online column and sign up for my e-mail previewing our nightly programs by going to my Web site: cnn.com/wolf.

Please stay with CNN throughout the night. Anne Marie Smith is Larry King's guest at the top of the hour. She's the flight attendant who says she had an affair with Gary Condit.

Up next, Greta Van Susteren. She's standing by to tell us what she has -- Greta.

GRETA VAN SUSTEREN, HOST, CNN'S "THE POINT": Wolf, as we all know, Chandra Levy is not the only missing person in this country. I'll have the sister of a woman who disappeared about three years ago, five months pregnant, age 27. Still no word. Plus, Michael Weisskopf of "TIME" magazine joins us to talk about the continuing political future of Gary Condit. Stay with us.

BLITZER: Thanks, Greta. I will be watching, and I'll see you Sunday on "LATE EDITION," the last word in Sunday talk. Among my guests, D.C. Police Chief Charles Ramsey and Senator Joe Lieberman. Until then, thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. "THE POINT WITH GRETA VAN SUSTEREN" begins right now.

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