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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

Gary Condit and the Character Question

Aired August 29, 2001 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, Condit, the character question. Going back to the days of Thomas Jefferson, many of this country's great political figures have led private lives that may not measure up to their public images. In the case of minor political figures, such shortcomings have become almost routine. The latest scandal involves Congressman Gary Condit and his ties to missing intern Chandra Levy.

Should a politician's private behavior matter? When does character become an issue? CNN senior political analyst Bill Schneider gives us some of the historical perspective.

And I'll discuss Condit's character with conservative social critic William Bennett. The former education secretary, who turned his outrage at Bill Clinton's intern scandal into a bestseller.

Good evening. I'm Wolf Blitzer reporting tonight from Washington. We'll get to the issue of Gary Condit and character, as well as my interview with Bill Bennett in just a moment. But first, 98-year-old Bob Hope is in the hospital.

Let's go live to CNN's Sherri Sylvester, who's at St. Joseph Medical Center in Burbank, California for details -- Sherri.

SHERRI SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, Bob Hope will be spending the night here at St. Joseph's Medical Center in Burbank. He has been here since Sunday night. He was admitted after he had difficulty breathing. He called his doctor, Dr. Lee Kagan. And the doctor suggested that Bob, who lives just down the street, come by.

He was apparently in very serious condition when he checked in. This video that you're looking at now is video of Bob when he was released from a hospital in Palm Springs just about a year ago. But he is responding well to treatment, according his doctors. He did require oxygen when he checked in. He was diagnosed with a mild pneumonia.

They said he is now in stable condition, following that serious condition. He did have to gesture with his hands, apparently, when he checked in. His speech has improved.

Now I don't know if the hand gesture has to do with him needing oxygen and having difficulty breathing. Bob Hope, of course, at 98. He's also very hard of hearing. And I've known him since 1986. And he's been hard of hearing for quite some time. So he will be here for the next few days, according to his doctor, who had this to say about his condition.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEE H. KAGAN, BOB HOPE PHYSICIAN, ST. JOSEPH MEDICAL CENTER: I would say that age contributed to his illness, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you characterize it as minor or mild pneumonia, that is a very serious condition for a gentleman of his age, is it not?

KAGAN: That's correct. Pneumonia is always a potentially very serious problem in the elderly particularly.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SYLVESTER: We will continue to update you on Bob Hope's condition, as we learn more. One final note, Bob and Delores Hope actually took part in the ground-breaking ceremony here at this hospital, St. Joseph's Medical Center where he is being treated now. Bob's career spans seven decades. Of course, he entertained the USO troops.

It's estimated that Bob has entertained 10 million military men and women, as well as 11 presidents.

I'm Sherri Sylvester reporting live. Wolf, back to you.

BLITZER: Thank you very much, Sherri.

And turning now to Gary Condit and the issue of character. By now, we're all too familiar with the tales of politicians who have been embarrassed by their sexual indiscretions. Some of them, most famously former President Bill Clinton, managed to remain in office. Others find the pressure too much to bear and resign.

The 53-year-old California lawmaker is in the midst of that firestorm right now. And that's our focus tonight: Condit, the character question.

New questions about Gary Condit's political future, after his two children quit their own jobs in the office of California governor Gray Davis, saying the governor had betrayed their father. But will Gary Condit be the next to resign?

Davis and other Democrats have now joined the criticism of Condit. Appearing on CNN's "LARRY KING LIVE" earlier this week, Chad Condit said he doesn't know if his father will run again, saying "the family vote would be that he doesn't."

Congressman Condit is certainly not the first politician to find himself in this situation.

CNN's senior political analyst Bill Schneider looked at the record and found that each case is different. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST (voice-over): The character question hangs over Congressman Gary Condit, but a question hangs over the character question. Where do you draw the line? When does private behavior become a public issue? Are there any rules?

We asked two experts.

E.J. DIONNE, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST: Well, I think there are no rules and they're loosely enforced.

LARRY SABATO, PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA: Rules, boy, I can't think of any rules. Every rule I can think of is contradicted by another circumstance or past behavior of a politician.

SCHNEIDER: Let's see. Here's a rule. Call it the Oprah rule. Come clean right from the start, and all will be forgiven, eventually. President Reagan followed that rule in the Iran-Contra affair and survived.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RONALD REAGAN, 40TH PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Now my fellow Americans, there's an old saying that nothing spreads so quickly as a rumor. So I thought it was time to speak with you directly, to tell you first hand about our dealings with Iran.

SCHNEIDER: President Nixon did not come clean about Watergate. Gary Hart did not come clean about his personal life. Neither survived.

DIONNE: In principle, honesty is the best policy. In practice, it's not clear that's always true.

SCHNEIDER: Take President Clinton.

WILLIAM J. CLINTON, 42ND PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I did not have sexual relations with that woman.

SCHNEIDER: He didn't come clean until he was forced to. And he survived. Well, that was all about sex. When it's all about sex, people make allowances, don't they?

The first thing people learned about Bill Clinton in the 1992 campaign was about his relationship with Gennifer Flowers. He survived by going on TV to confess. See rule one.

What makes the Condit matter serious is that it's not just about sex. It's about a missing woman. But the Chappaquiddick matter back in 1969 was about a dead woman. How did Senator Kennedy survive that? He assumed responsibility for the tragedy and drew attention to other tragedies he and his family had endured.

SEN. EDWARD KENNEDY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: Whether some awful curse did actually hang over all the Kennedys, I hope that I shall have -- be able to put this most recent tragedy behind me.

SCHNEIDER: So the voters made allowances. They are not making allowances for Condit. The problem isn't his sexual behavior. It's his priorities.

DIONNE: It appeared to the public that he was more interested in keeping his affair private than in finding this young woman.

SCHNEIDER (on camera): The bottom line is, character does matter, but it matters in context. The public acts like a jury. It doesn't just consider the law. It considers the context of every case.

Bill Schneider, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: And character, that's a specialty of William Bennett. The former education secretary and drug policy chief has become an influential social critic, with his call for more morality in America. He's the best-selling author of "The Book of Virtues," and "The Death of Outrage," about the Bill Clinton/Monica Lewinsky scandal. I spoke with him about the Gary Condit character question.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Bill Bennett, thanks for joining us. Let's get right to the issue at hand. What should happen to Congressman Gary Condit?

WILLIAM BENNETT, CONSERVATIVE COMMENTATOR: Well, Congressman Condit should have resigned I think some time ago.

BLITZER: Why?

BENNETT: Because of his behavior, because of what he's done. I mean, he obstructed an investigation, that's a legal term.

BLITZER: But the police say he's not a suspect. They even say he's not even central to the investigation.

BENNETT: Police aren't going to tell us whether he's a suspect or not, but we certainly know how many interviews it took to finally get the truth out of him.

Look, I think, I may be in a very small minority in this country, but I think when a guy has a record, before we get to any criminal activity, this kind of behavior with an intern. Cheating on his intern with several other women, he gets caught up in this. He is now in all this denial about what he's done. He's saying everyone else has lied.

I mean, I think this is behavior that brings disgrace on the House and on the Congress. And I think he should resign on those grounds, quite apart from the criminal and legal aspects of this. And I think there should be a rule in the House that you can't mess around with the interns, your interns or anybody else's interns. BLITZER: So on that point, you agree with Congressman Scott McInnis.

BENNETT: Yes.

BLITZER: Who on this program, suggested there should be a rule. The Ethics Committee should change it, flatly barring any sort of romantic relationships between members of Congress and interns.

BENNETT: Yes, is that reaching for too high a level of activity for -- you know, reaching too high, aiming too high? Is this expecting too much?

BLITZER: Well, what does that say about the House of Representatives if you have to write that kind of rule effectively into law?

BENNETT: Clearly you do have to write it, otherwise it's going to be violated quite often. The other thing is, it does bring disgrace on the House and does tend to make people believe that they are all scoundrels.

And the point I try to make, you live in this town, I live in this town, they're not all scoundrels. Some of them are very decent people. But the American people do want to send their daughters to Washington in order to see them handled like this.

Now some of these folks are, I know, above the age of consent. Nevertheless the relationships are be unequal because somebody has the power and somebody else doesn't have the power. This is quite short of the criminal issues, which I now think are right out there in front, because there are several ways, several explanations you can offer for the Condit thing.

One explanation is he's not giving anything. And his lawyer may have advised him, "Don't say anything, don't reveal anything, which suggests that you know, there may have been serious involvement."

BLITZER: Well, let's listen to what Congressman Condit said in the interview with our affiliate in Sacramento, KOVR. I want you to listen to how he phrased his relationship with Chandra Levy.

REP. GARY CONDIT (D), CALIFORNIA: I've not been a perfect man. And I've made mistakes in my life, but out of respect for my family and out of a request from the Levy family, it's best I not go into the details of relationship.

BLITZER: Now, isn't that a code word for yes there was romantic, sexual relationship?

BENNETT: Yes.

BLITZER: Doesn't everybody understand what he saying?

BENNETT: I've got to say, as somebody who deals with morality and ethics, moral discourse. I used to teach it in college. This notion of I am not a perfect man, I mean this is like Benedict Arnold saying I am not a perfect soldier. This is good deal less than perfect, I mean this behavior.

I have no problem calling this, you know, this guy's a cad. He's a knave. He's inconsiderate of woman. He does not know whether he had a relationship or not. You know, we could parse the terms here.

BLITZER: You're defining the word relationship as opposed to affair.

BENNETT: Right. Reminiscent of Bill Clinton. So I mean, it's playing games. Essentially, he's admitting it, but he's also saying there's really nothing wrong with it. Well, there is something wrong with it.

BLITZER: But did Connie Chung go too far in sort of badgering him on this specific issue, to say the words, "Yes, there was a sexual relationship?"

BENNETT: Yes, the reason does -- I thought she wasted time. We all know he had a sexual relationship with her. So I wouldn't have wasted 10 minutes on that. I would have gotten into things like the phone logs and other stuff to find out. Because we're looking here, actually at the end of the day, about a criminal investigation. This woman is missing. And he may have had something to do with it. So I wouldn't spend all that time trying to find out what we already know.

BLITZER: As far as you're concerned, based on your past writings, I get the sense that you think adultery, in and of itself, is a disqualifier.

BENNETT: No.

BLITZER: As far as politicians are concerned?

BENNETT: No, I don't think so. I think it depends. It depends on facts and circumstances. I think the circumstances with Mr. Condit are such that, you know, he ought to see the light and Gephardt ought to see the light and see that this is not the kind of thing that is conducive to public confidence in the House.

Hey, the Democrats have a more serious problem here than the Republicans. Republicans, when they fess up to this, as you've noticed, have tended to leave. Packwood had a serious sexual harassment issue. He left. Livingston confessed to an affair. He left. Gingrich left. The Democrats don't know quite what to do about all this.

BLITZER: But there are some Republicans, Dan Burton didn't leave. Henry Hyde didn't leave.

BENNETT: Well, these are things, I think that in terms of time, were many, many years ago. So no, but I don't see adultery is per se a disqualification. I don't think it's a badge of honor either.

But when you get to the situation, the pathetic kind of situation that Condit is in, just talking about the sex, where you've got him denying that he's relationships with women with whom he's clearly had relationships. When he has made an utter and complete fool of himself I think on television talking about these relationships, he ought to go.

BLITZER: You wrote in "The Wall Street Journal," in the opinion piece in May of 2000. I'll read to you what you wrote. You said, "I persist in my belief that the public can't, on the one hand, lament the crack up of the American family, and on the other hand, remain utterly indifferent to and fully accepting of political leaders who publicly abrogate marriage vows and make adultery more acceptable. At some point, we must be prepared to do something about it."

BENNETT: Yes, I think...

BLITZER: What must we be prepared to do about it?

BENNETT: I think we ought to make some judgments about it. You've heard endlessly on the shows. Well, people say, we don't want the sex police. We don't want the sex police.

I don't want sex police either, but I do think some judgment here about people's appropriateness for office can be concluded on the basis of their behavior. This guy's running around, putting on the baseball cap, telling people not to bring their IDs. He's living this life of lies in regard to his life, while he's affirming these same values.

So I think that is a problem. Look, a sledgehammer's being taken to the American family. We know about what's going on the American family. And we're supposed to stand by and say, "Well, let's see, he's got three or four or five women going on at the same time. He denies. He doesn't think he has a relationship. Well, that's all fine." I don't think it fine.

BLITZER: But a lot of great political leaders clearly have had private lives that were not so spectacular. Whether it's FDR or Alexander Hamilton or John F. Kennedy or Eisenhower, a lot of great political leaders perhaps would've been disqualified from their public service because of some private mistakes.

BENNETT: Perhaps, perhaps. I think probably if we had known everything about JFK that was going on then, probably would've been disqualified. And given what we have read, if 80 percent of it is true, he should have been disqualified based on what he was doing. If some of the stuff that was going on with...

BLITZER: And would that have been worth it, though, to deprive the country of that service because of those human frailties?

BENNETT: Oh, let me just say, people link to organized crime here. If those charges are true about JFK, he shouldn't have been carrying on like that. I want to tell you, I think there are qualified people who can be in the White House, who can also keep their vows to wives. I think it's entirely possible. And I think most of the people who have been in the White House, you know, on Congress can manage to do that. But again, I'm not saying in itself it's a disqualification. It depends. It depends on facts and circumstances.

I think you had plenty in the Clinton case that he should have resigned. But a lot of that had to do with lying under oath, lying to a grand jury.

With Condit, you've got this other situation, which is potentially, you know, foul play, even rose. So I think those are grounds, but look at each fact and circumstance. The FDR situation is a very different situation than what you're describing with Condit and Clinton.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Just ahead in the second part of my interview with Bill Bennett, I'll ask him to compare and contrast Gary Condit's character issues with those of former President Bill Clinton. And later, a convicted killer tells a courtroom why he'd prefer the death penalty. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. Continuing my interview with conservative social critic William Bennett, I asked him about any similarities or differences between Gary Condit and Bill Clinton.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: The book that you wrote, "The Death of Outrage," you lamented the fact that Americans were not outraged effectively, based on the poll numbers regarding Bill Clinton. Look at the current poll that we took on the opinion of the American public, as far as Gary Condit is concerned. Was his behavior moral? Only 10 percent said yes. Immoral, 77 percent.

BENNETT: Yes.

BLITZER: So the American public seems to get it as far as the morality of this is concerned.

BENNETT: They see a bright line here when it comes to Condit. When it comes to Clinton, they saw it a little more blurry.

BLITZER: Because of why?

BENNETT: Well, I think partly because he was the president. And people tend to give the President the benefit of the doubt. Partly because the economy was good. Partly because you had a whole bunch of people on your shows and other shows, spinning this thing the other way. Condit has had no spin. Or if he's had any spin, it's been reverse spin. I don't know who's in worse repute now, congressman or lawyers, given the Condit defense. So I think it's different in those ways, too. BLITZER: The other point though is that Democrats now, like Gephardt, Dick Gephardt, the Democratic leader in the House, Governor Gray Davis, the Democratic governor of California who employs Condit's two children...

BENNETT: Yes.

BLITZER: They are criticizing him openly. Is it too late though for that? Should they have been out there way earlier in this?

BENNETT: I didn't think it'd take a brain scientist to figure out that Gary Condit didn't belong in the Congress once the facts were -- emerged as they did over the summer. Yes, you had Dick Gephardt 10 days ago or two weeks ago saying he thought Condit was man of honor, that he was trustworthy. Then following the Connie Chung interview, he reverses. I think that looks like he was reading those same polls or same numbers. He should've been able to figure this out ahead of time.

BLITZER: But he's still a member of the intelligence committee, when Gephardt specifically put him on that committee, could remove him if he'd wanted to.

BENNETT: He could remove him and he should remove him, but Condit should remove himself. You know, the thing that bothers me here is there's no personal sense of honor in Condit, no more than there was in Clinton, no sense of, you know, maybe I should do this myself. He regards himself as a moral man. I mean, this just tells you where the debate is, where the language is. Whatever he is, his conduct in this case is not moral.

BLITZER: But with the Republican reaction to Condit, it's very interesting. There have been a few like Bob Barr, Scott McInnis of Colorado, a few others, you who have urged him to resign, but I don't see a great number of Republican members of the House, his colleagues outraged, speaking out publicly about this.

BENNETT: This falls into your earlier question when you said what's the difference between this and Clinton? One of reasons some people came to Clinton's defense is they saw Republicans, Conservatives going after Clinton, which I thought they should have. But people said, no matter what happens, we'll defend Clinton against the conservatives.

So I think Republicans and conservatives have held back this time and let the public make its own judgment. Maybe prudentially, in the long run, that's a better way to go, but certainly the judgment is and the judgment is clear.

BLITZER: And the bottom line, just a few seconds, what's going to happen when you put your forecast hat on?

BENNETT: Well, I think his political future is over. What we still need to have is serious discussion about morality in this country and what our representatives owe us. And whether you really can, in all cases, separate personal morality from public morality. It depends on facts and circumstances. Adultery itself isn't a disqualification, but I think this kind of serial adultery, this kind of serial lying and stonewalling. Man, I mean, I think everything gets this one now.

BLITZER: All right, Bill Bennett.

BENNETT: Thank you.

BLITZER: Thanks for joining us.

(END OF VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: A Texas killer says he wants to die. Coming up, find out if a jury grants that request. And Senator John McCain is recovering after a date with the doctor on his birthday. Details right after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. In other top stories, a convicted killer who fatally shot a Texas police officer during a prison escape got his wish. Today a jury sentenced George Rivas to death for the Christmas Eve shooting. Officer Aubrey Hawkins was gunned down during a store robbery, pulled off by Rivas and six other escapees. Before his sentence, Rivas told the court why he wanted to die.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE RIVAS, CONVICTED MURDERER: I have vowed to myself last year I'm not going to die old man in prison. I've seen them. And I would rather much -- like I said, you call it the death penalty. I call it freedom.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Prosecutors plan to seek the death penalty against the other escapees as well.

In the West Bank, a cease-fire was declared in Beit Jala today between the Israelis and Palestinians. But not long after the deal was struck, intense fighting broke out. Palestinian security forces clashed again with Israeli troops, which had moved into Beit Jala area to stop Palestinian attacks on a nearby Jewish neighborhood. Israel promised to withdraw if the attacks ended.

Senator John McCain is spending the night in the hospital. The Arizona Republican had surgery today for an enlarged prostate. The Mayo Clinic Hospital in Phoenix says the operation went off without a hitch. And McCain is expected to make a full recovery. Today's the senator's 65th birthday.

I'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Please stay with CNN throughout the night. Much more on the Chandra Levy/Gary Condit story on "LARRY KING LIVE" at the top of the hour. Thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. "THE POINT WITH GRETA VAN SUSTEREN" begins right now.

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