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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

Andrea Yates: A Mother on Trial

Aired September 10, 2001 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, Andrea Yates, a mother on trial. She's accused of systematically drowning her five children in the bathtub of her Houston-area home and faces the death penalty. She's pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity. Her family and lawyers say she suffered from postpartum psychosis.

Is Yates competent to stand trial? Can there be any defense for the killing of children? Do killings triggered by mental illness justify the death penalty? On the eve of jury selection, we'll have a live debate between Kim Gandy, president of the National Organization for Women and conservative commentator Bay Buchanan. And, I'll ask forensic psychiatrist Saul Faerstein what makes a parent kill a child and whether Yates' insanity plea can hold up in court.

Good evening. I'm Wolf Blitzer reporting tonight from Washington.

In the coming days, we're going to be hearing a lot about Andrea Yates. She's the Houston woman accused of drowning her five children, who ranged in age from six months to seven years.

Her trial begins tomorrow morning with jury selection. The district attorney is seeking the death penalty. Her supporters, including some high-profile women's organizations, don't dispute that she killed the children, but they insist there were mitigating circumstances. Should mental illness let her off the hook? That's our focus tonight: Andrea Yates, a mother on trial.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KAREN JOHNSON, EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT, NOW: We want to elevate the awareness of the issue of postpartum depression because it affects one in 10 women who give birth to children.

BLITZER (voice-over): The National Organization for Women has again created a firestorm of protest.

JOHNSON: NOW is not raising money for the defense of Andrea Yates. The Houston chapter and the Texas NOW chapter have joined in coalition with a group that is referring people to the defense fund for Andrea Yates.

BLITZER: That coalition is planning a candlelight vigil outside the Texas courthouse, where a jury will be selected Tuesday to determine whether Yates is competent to stand trial for killing her five children in June. The prosecutor says she should receive the death penalty.

CHUCK ROSENTHAL, HARRIS COUNTY PROSECUTOR: A lot of the people who have prejudged this case and who are sympathetic to the defendant don't know the facts.

BLITZER: The facts are horrific. On that fateful morning, police say Yates filled her bathtub with water and then drowned her children, one by one. When her eldest, the 7-year-old, resisted, she grabbed him and drowned him as well. She later called her husband at work to inform him of what she did.

RUSSELL YATES, HUSBAND OF ANDREA YATES: I got a call from my wife. And she said, "You need to come home." And I said, "What's going on?" And she said, "You need to come home."

BLITZER: When she appeared in court, she pleaded not guilty, citing insanity. Before the killings, she had attempted suicide and was taking Haldol and other powerful drugs.

SAUL FAERSTEIN, FORENSIC PSYCHIATRIST: It's such a bizarre and monstrous crime that there needs to be some explanation. And mental illness is usually some explanation for the act.

BLITZER: In addition to NOW activists, others have come to her defense.

GARY NORMAN, VICTIMS' FAMILY ADVOCATE: Treatment for her mental illness should take priority over attempts to punish her, And we believe that she and her family need support and compassion in this most desperate time.

BLITZER: Like now, some high-profile television personalities, including NBC's Katie Couric, have caused a stir by informing viewers where contributions to the Yates' defense fund can be sent.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: While the case is clearly igniting passions, has NOW fanned the flames with its support of Yates?

Joining me to square off on this issue, Kim Gandy. She's the president of the National Organization for Women and Bay Buchanan. She's a commentator and president of the American Cause. Thanks to both of you for joining us.

Kim Gandy, tell us why NOW is supporting Andrea Yates?

KIM GANDY, PRESIDENT, NOW: We're taking this opportunity to get information out to the public about a tragedy that is of really epic proportions from what we saw with Andrea Yates. But I realized as a mother of two young girls that I didn't know anything about post- partum depression or psychosis when I gave birth. And this is an opportunity that we have to talk to women all over the country, to take advantage of the publicity around this terrible case, to get some women, mostly some, doctors to talk to their patients about this and maybe avert a future tragedy.

BLITZER: Bay Buchanan, what is wrong with that?

BAY BUCHANAN, PRESIDENT, THE AMERICAN CAUSE: Well, Wolf, what NOW is doing is they're trying to make use of something that is a terrible, terrible tragedy. And they are coming out and they're criticizing the prosecutor for going after Yates. This woman, who is a mass murderer of her own children, going after him because he's saying this is first-degree murder and it's capital punishment in the state of Texas.

He is doing his job. He is representing the five little innocent children that were murdered. And he is doing exactly the right thing. And for NOW to suggest that the sympathy belongs for the woman and not for those children I think is a real travesty itself.

GANDY: We certainly have been critical of the prosecutor's decisions. I'm a former prosecutor myself. And a situation like this, where there was clearly extreme mental illness involved. Some of her medical records have now come out confirming what everyone told us from the Houston area about her. We shouldn't be seeking the death penalty for someone who is so clearly mentally ill. Punishment is one issue. The death penalty is an entirely different issue. And you and I disagree on that.

BUCHANAN: Kim, as a prosecutor, you know better than anyone that it's the job of the prosecutor to represent what happened there, represent the murdered victims. And what he's done in the state of Texas...

GANDY: But you're wrong about that.

BUCHANAN: In the state of Texas it is clear: The law states that what the state of mind of the person was. Did they know it wrong when they committed the crime? And it is clear that this woman knew it was wrong. She called the police to report herself. She had a son telling her, "Please don't do it." She knew it was wrong. She was not insane. So he must prosecute.

GANDY: ... the facts of the case. But you haven't been a prosecutor, because if you were, you would know that the sworn duty of a prosecutor is to seek justice, not to convict.

BUCHANAN: You know, Kim, what is wrong here...

GANDY: And seeking justice in an individual case means looking at all the circumstances of this case. And this woman clearly was in a terrible situation. And that's going to be the jury's decision.

BUCHANAN: Yes.

GANDY: What we've got to do is resist the urge to tie this up in a neat bow, put Andrea Yates to death, and then let the next tragedy happen because we ignore it and we don't learn anything from it.

BUCHANAN: Kim, she -- you know, we did learn something. GANDY: We need to learn something from this.

BUCHANAN: This is what we need to learn. We need to learn that women, as well as men, have to be accountable for their actions.

GANDY: Absolutely.

BUCHANAN: And there's depression going on across the country. And you know, I don't know a lot...

GANDY: It's psychosis. It's not depression.

BUCHANAN: Listen...

GANDY: Don't get those mixed up because a lot of women have postpartum depression, don't do anything to their kids.

BUCHANAN: Kim, she had help. She had a doctor within months of this murder tell her she had to go into a psychiatric hospital. She chose not to do it.

GANDY: She did. She was hospitalized.

BUCHANAN: Yes, but they told her she had to commit herself. Yes, and she knew that she was putting her children in danger by going home.

GANDY: And she did commit herself.

BUCHANAN: And she did not go into that hospital.

BLITZER: Let me interrupt for a second.

GANDY: She did commit herself.

BLITZER: What do you think, Bay Buchanan, the death penalty in had this case?

BUCHANAN: Absolutely.

BLITZER: Is it appropriate for the...

BUCHANAN: Listen, the Texas law is quite clear and it's been on the books a long time. It's been applied to a lot of men and now it's being applied to a woman and it should be applied equally.

The key is at the moment of the murder, was she sane? It's the -- prosecutor...

GANDY: That's the question.

BUCHANAN: That is the question...

GANDY: That is the question for the jury to decide.

BUCHANAN: And it is the job of the defendant's attorney to prove she was insane. And it's the job of the prosecutor, whose looked at this and said all the actions she's taken suggests she was totally sane at that moment. She knew -- not sane. She knew right from wrong. We knew what she was doing was wrong.

GANDY: Actually, that's...

BLITZER: Well, the prosecutor makes the case...

GANDY: Yes, that's the prosecutor's...

BLITZER: Well, the prosecutor makes the case, Chuck Rosenthal. We heard from him in the piece earlier. He said she knew precisely what she was doing and he points to the fact that she methodically, after she drowned these five little kids, she called husband.

I want you to listen to what husband said about her situation. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

R. YATES: My wife, I'm supportive of her. You know, it's hard because, on the one hand I know she killed our children, you know. But on the other, I know that, you know, the woman here is not the woman who killed my children.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Bay Buchanan, what do you say when the husband says, this was not the wife that he knew.

BUCHANAN: Well, you know, I would say that we're going to see all the facts here, but he knew that his wife was having a hard time handling all those children at home. And he did not take actions himself. Now he, I do not believe, is criminally responsible for the deaths, but he is going to be responsible because he made some real decisions over the years of those children.

GANDY: You and I agree on that.

BUCHANAN: And so that's -- but he's going to live with that. But at the same time, just because he says, "Well, she was acting differently than I really know her," that doesn't excuse the fact that she knew right from wrong. She had a son yelling at her, "Please, mom, please, mom, don't do this to me." She knew it was wrong. That boy knew it was wrong. She called her husband and said something's terrible's happened. She called the police. At that moment, she knew what she did wrong.

BLITZER: She did, by her own account, chase that little 7-year- old around the house, grabbed him, and then...

GANDY: No question, it was terrible, terrible, terrible crime. And everything we know about this woman. She's a lot like Bay, very conservative woman, very religious woman, home schooling her children, full-time mother doing everything that the conservatives say they want women to do. By every account, a devoted, devoted mother. And what that says to me is that could happen to someone else.

BUCHANAN: Kim, what you're suggesting here.

GANDY: If we don't talk about illness and if we don't get the word out to people that this could happen to someone else. Executing her is not going to solve the problem.

BUCHANAN: What we have here.

BLITZER: Go ahead.

BUCHANAN: What we have here is an organization that says on one hand, women should be on the front-line in the battles. They should be in operating rooms operating on people, they should be policewomen and firemen. They should be able to do all these things. But by the way, when their hormones are running differently and they have some problems emotionally and they get depressed or...

GANDY: Psychosis.

BUCHANAN: All these problems, they can't be held accountable for their actions, but men are.

BLITZER: Well, the point that Bay Buchanan is making is a point that Linda Chavez, a syndicated columnist, made. Let me read to you what she says about this.

"NOW, (referring to the National Organization for Women), is pushing a double standard for justice, one for males, another for females. The male hormone testosterone plays a major role in provoking aggression, even violence. Yet we don't excuse criminal behavior in males because their hormones may contribute to their violent behavior. Should we let women off the hook because their hormones are out of whack temporarily?"

GANDY: Clearly, this is not a hormonal issue. Although I will say, and I really don't mean this lightly, that if one out of ten new fathers suffered from post-partum depression, we'd know a whole lot more about it than we know about post-partum depression which occurs in one in ten new mothers.

But in one of 1,000 new mothers, it can turn into post-partum psychosis. It's not always deadly, but it can be. It can result in suicide and it can result in the murder of children. It happens and we've got to talk about it. We've got to talk about why are the managed care situations putting women -- this woman, according to the medical records, was put out of the hospital after seven days.

BLITZER: But that certainly doesn't justify killing her five children.

GANDY: Oh, there's no justification for that.

BUCHANAN: She had doctors.

GANDY: None at all. But there... BUCHANAN: She had doctors. She had family. She was instructed time and time again that she's got to get some time off. She's got people to help her with those kids. She's going to have to because she can't handle it. And she chose not to do it.

Now she's a grownup woman, a mother of five. She should have put children first and made certain she did something, someone else to help her raise those children or turn those children over to someone else to raise.

GANDY: And there needs to be help.

BUCHANAN: She chose not to. She chose. Yes, listen, there are people who are raised in terrible circumstances, young kids killing other kids. We hold them accountable. We have to hold Ms. Yates accountable.

BLITZER: On that note, unfortunately, we have to leave it right there. Kim Gandy, Bay Buchanan, thanks for coming out to Capitol Hill and joining us.

BUCHANAN: Sure, Wolf.

BLITZER: Appreciate it.

And up next, the crime is almost too horrific to imagine. I'll ask forensic psychiatrist Dr. Saul Faerstein how a mother can drown her children. And lawyers for Andrea Yates are pursuing an insanity defense, but do they have a case? Stay with us.

BLITZER: Welcome back. Andrea Yates, a mother on trial. Accused of drowning her five children, she's entered an insanity plea. Will that hold up at this week's competency hearing? Can there be any explanation for such an act?

Joining me now from Los Angeles is Dr. Saul Faerstein. He's a forensic psychiatrist who's been involved in many high-profile trials, including the O.J. Simpson case. Dr. Faerstein, thanks so much for joining us. And let's get right to the debate we just heard between Kim Gandy of the National Organization for Women and Bay Buchanan. In this debate, you were listening to it. Who's right?

FAERSTEIN: Well, I think that the prosecutor, former prosecutor Kim Gandy, made some very good points. I think that it is the responsibility of the prosecutor to seek justice and not to prejudge the case. I think Bay Buchanan made some statements that suggest that she might be prejudging the case and assuming that Andrea Yates is guilty. And in our system of justice, there's a presumption of innocence, that a woman is considered until she's proven guilty.

The responsibility is the prosecutor's to prove that she had the mental state consistent with that of guilt in this case.

BLITZER: Well, how serious of an illness is post-partum psychosis, if in fact that is what she was suffering from? FAERSTEIN: Post-partum psychosis is a very, very serious mental disorder. It's a psychiatric emergency. It requires hospitalization. It's a condition which would, in some cases, cause someone to kill themselves or kill others. It is one of the most severe psychiatric disorders.

And she has had a history of psychiatric disease. She was treated for psychosis. She was hospitalized. She's was on very powerful antipsychotic medications. She has had a long history of very severe psychiatric disease.

BLITZER: But you've been involved in a lot of trials. You've testified at a lot of these kinds of trials. Does that automatically mean she did not comprehend what she was doing? She did not know right from wrong in this particular case?

FAERSTEIN: Well, that's a very important point, a very good point. It does not mean that she automatically is not guilty by reason of insanity. People who have psychosis might be sane. It's the responsibility of the prosecutor to prove that she understood the nature and the quality of her conduct, that she understood the wrongfulness of her in conduct.

If she was as impaired as it seems from the material we've seen so far in the records, in the public record, she may have been insane. We don't know that yet. We cannot prejudge the case because we could not have all the facts.

BLITZER: Go ahead.

FAERSTEIN: In your earlier setup, the prosecutor made a very important point that we do not have all the facts yet. And when the facts are made known in court, we'll be in a better position to judge whether she was sane or insane.

BLITZER: I assume one of points the prosecutor is going to try to make is that she fully understood what she was doing, based on what she told her husband in that conversation immediately after the deaths, and what she told the police, of course, when she was picked up. That would be my assumption. Wouldn't it be yours?

FAERSTEIN: Yes. That is evidence. The evidence is her statements immediately following, later on. But the evidence is also her mental disorder, the degree of impairment that was present, and the nature of her acts.

BLITZER: How do you explain, as psychiatrist, how do you explain how a mother can drown one child, let alone five children?

FAERSTEIN: It's not possible to explain. It is one of the most unspeakable and inexplicable conduct that we can imagine. I cannot explain it. I think that we can try to understand the degree of impairment she was experiencing at the time of the offense, but the maternal instinct is so strong, that it is almost impossible to understand how somebody could do that. This will be the burden on the prosecutor, in fact, to demonstrate to a jury of 12 people that this woman, had the mental state, was sane, was rational, understood what she was doing, had a sane motivation to do this kind of act. That's a pretty strong burden on the prosecutor.

BLITZER: And you've been involved in a lot of cases involving an insanity plea. Do you believe that the prosecutor has a strong case this time?

FAERSTEIN: I think he has a case that may inflame the passions of the jury because of its horrendous nature. But I think the defense has a very good case because of the well documented history of her mental disorder. And it's also, I think, likely that a juror looking at this will not be able to find a rational motive for Andrea Yates to have killed her five children for their to be a motivation.

BLITZER: Dr. Faerstein, once again, it was kind of you to join us and offer your expertise on this matter. Thanks so much once again.

FAERSTEIN: Thank you, Wolf.

BLITZER: Thank you. And we'll have much more on the Yates case at the bottom of the hour on "THE POINT WITH GRETA VAN SUSTEREN." Greta will take you inside the medical records of Andrea Yates.

Up next, a look at some of the day's top stories. Elizabeth Dole is set to make a major announcement. I'll tell you what insiders are telling CNN. Plus, the violent end to a killing spree in northern California. Details when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. In other top stories, Republican party officials tell CNN, Elizabeth Dole is definitely making a bid for the U.S. Senate. North Carolina's GOP chairman says Dole will file paperwork tomorrow to run for the seat Jesse Helms is giving up. Dole is a former cabinet secretary and former president of the Red Cross.

Israeli forces attacked two Palestinian security posts today, including this one in the West Bank. Palestinians say a police officer was killed and four other people were wounded. Israel says it was in retaliation for a mortar attack near a Jewish settlement. Israeli and Palestinian officials are still trying to hammer out a deal on talks tomorrow aimed at the ending the violence. Both sides have agreed to meet, but they can't agree on where.

Authorities say a former security guard who killed five people committed suicide after a pursuit and intense gun battle with police in suburban Sacramento early this morning. 20-year-old Joseph Ferguson left behind a home video in which he talked of killing even more people.

CNN has decided not to air this video. Ferguson had been suspended from his job. Four of his victims were former co-workers, including his ex-girlfriend.

Some alarming figures in a new study on children caught up in the sex trade. Researchers say between 300,000 and 400,000 young people are sexually exploited each year in the United States. The study's author saying most of the victims come from middle class homes.

Up next, I'll open our mailbag. We received lots of reaction to the HBO series "Band of Brothers," our focus Friday night. Many of you don't get HBO and had a key question. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. Time now to open our mailbag. Lots of reaction to our special report Friday night on the 10-part, World War II series, "Band of Brothers," which last night began airing on HBO.

Cheryl from Florida writes this. "I am so glad that Steven Spielberg and Tom Hanks have done this film. My dad passed away in 1989. He would've loved this film. Those men and women of that generation, how can we ever say thank you to them?"

Mary from Lafayette, Louisiana. "Band of Brothers was excellent and so realistic. I could not get up from my seat and just wanted more and more."

But many of you, like Don in Missouri, don't subscribe to HBO and had the same question. "Are there plans to put this series out on video or DVD?" Don, we called HBO, which like CNN is part of AOL-Time Warner. And you won't be surprised to hear their recommendation: If you want to see "Band of Brothers," subscribe. But an executive does add this, "You can assume it eventually will make it to video." But he won't say when.

Remember, I want to hear from you. Please e-mail me at wolf@cnn.com or go to our web site www.cnn.com/wolf.

Please stay with CNN throughout the night. Psychic John Edward is Larry King's guest at the top of the hour. Up next, Greta Van Susteren.

I'll see you tomorrow night as usual. Until then, thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. "THE POINT WITH GRETA SUSTEREN" begins right now.

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