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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports
America's New War: Bush Administration Building Anti-Terrorism Coalition
Aired September 25, 2001 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight on Wolf Blitzer Reports -- target terrorism. Two weeks after the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, the U.S. builds up its forces in an anti-terror coalition. President Bush says it may take a while, but justice will be done.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm a patient man. Nothing will diminish my will and my determination.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Can the U.S. count on a force already at war with the Taliban? I'll ask a representative of Afghanistan's Northern Alliance.
We'll look at Russia's role in Northern Afghanistan and we'll have a rare and exclusive report from inside Taliban-controlled Afghanistan.
Should the U.S. target an old enemy -- Saddam Hussein? I'll discuss the anti-terror campaign with House Intelligence Chairman Porter Goss and former top counter-terrorism official Larry Johnson.
We'll take you aboard an air force refueling tanker and we'll go behind the scenes with the fighter pilots protecting American cities. We'll hear from our reporters at the White House and the Pentagon, in Islamabad, Baghdad and in Northern Afghanistan as America targets terrorism.
Good evening. I'm Wolf Blitzer reporting tonight from Washington. We'll get to my interviews with Congressman Goss and Larry Johnson shortly, but first here is a look at the latest developments as America targets terrorism. The Pentagon has selected almost 2,000 more Reserve and National Guard troops to be part of the 35,000 strong force it's activating. Those announced today come from 17 units in 10 states and Puerto Rico. The Senate has barely approved another round of military base closings in 2003. Some Senators said now is not the time to be cutting back the military, but the Pentagon maintains military efficiency is more important than ever. And the last standing portion of the World Trade Center was removed this afternoon to make way for the search crews. The 7-story section of the South Tower is being preserved amid talk of using it as part of a monument.
President Bush today worked to enlist more allies in the fight against terrorism and he seems to be setting his sights directly on Afghanistan's Taliban. Let's go live to CNN senior White House correspondent John King for the latest -- John.
JOHN KING, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, with every passing day and every time the president speaks, it is increasingly clear that this administration will shed no tears at all if at the end of this campaign -- and the president once again today saying it could be a very lengthy campaign -- that Afghanistan was ruled by somebody other than the Taliban. And Mr. Bush as he spoke today and as the Defense Secretary briefed today also increasingly clear that the first shots fired within Afghanistan in what the president says is a new war might not be fired with the use of U.S. military firepower.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KING (voice-over): More coalition building and a blunt appeal for a revolt against Afghanistan's ruling Taliban.
BUSH: The best way to do that and one way to do that is to ask for the cooperation of citizens within Afghanistan who may be tired of having the Taliban in place, or tired of having the, Osama bin Laden, people from foreign soils in their own land willing to finance this repressive government.
KING: The Taliban supreme leader joined the war of words. In a statement to the American people Mullah Mohammed Omar said, quote: "Your government is perpetrating all sorts of atrocities in Muslim countries." The statement went on to say that U.S. policy is to blame for quote: "the sad events that took place recently." The White House says stopping the Taliban is not an explicit goal of the operation.
BUSH: We're not into nation building. We're focused on justice.
KING: But in just the past few days the administration has urged Russia to increase military sales to the Northern Alliance opposition; intensified its own contacts with the Northern Alliance; held talks in Rome with Afghanistan's 86-year-old exiled king and encouraged his efforts to organize opposition to the Taliban; and communicated through a third party with Abdul Haq, a former Afghan rebel leader who says he will return to Afghanistan to fight the Taliban.
ROBERT MCFARLANE, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: It makes good sense for the United States to give it a try for these grassroots Afghan commanders to bring down the Taliban for the government, take out bin Laden before the United States tries on its own.
KING: But the president also left no doubt he would have no problem targeting the Taliban.
BUSH: If you harbor a terrorist, if you aid a terrorist, if you hide terrorists, you're just as guilty as the terrorists.
(END VIDEOTAPE) KING: Now, Wolf, the president tonight making a rare trip outside of the White House to have dinner in the Washington area. This, part of his effort to reassure Americans that they should go back about their daily lives, yet at the same time a planned two-week trip to Asia next month cut back to two days. He'll only go to the Asian Pacific Economic Conference in Shanghai, stops in Beijing, Tokyo, and Seoul being canceled. Officials saying the president wants to be back here to lead the war on terrorism. Wolf.
BLITZER: John, why is the administration so cautious in avoiding the words that the United States wants to topple the Taliban regime. Why not simply say it directly?
KING: Well, two reasons. One, saying so directly might shrink the coalition. Other governments in the region might object to that because it would only (UNINTELLIGIBLE) anti-American sentiment among Islamic fundamentalists in places like Saudi Arabia and in Egypt. And also the administration doesn't want to set that explicitly as a goal because if that doesn't happen in the end the operation would be viewed as a failure. Wolf.
BLITZER: The president once again today met with the congressional leadership. Any daylight at all emerging between Democrats and Republicans as far as the operation is concerned?
KING: Not in terms of the military operation, no daylight at all. Democrats saying they want information obviously on the deployment. Everyone in Congress saying they're going to have to deal with how much this costs down the road. The only disagreement seems to be on the economic side. How much should the government spend? There's argument a bail-out of the airline industry many Democrats say need more help for dislocated workers as a result of this. But on the military side, no evidence of any significant daylight at all.
BLITZER: John King at the White House. Thank you very much. And over at the Pentagon they've come up with a new name for the war on terrorism. And they're deploying more forces to fight it. Let's go live to CNN Military Affairs correspondent Jamie McIntyre. It used to be called Infinite Justice, at least for a day or two.
What's the new name, Jamie?
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, they went through a betting process as the Pentagon says here to make sure that this name didn't offend anyone. And they came up with the nickname Operation Enduring Freedom. Whether it was intended or not, the word enduring might signal an endurance contest that might be appropriate for this war. The military build-up continues. Pentagon sources say that combat troops are continuing to move into the region and ships heading in that direction. And even though some of the heavy bombers are already in place Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld today indicated that this war may not start with a bang.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: In this effort, victory means crippling the ability of terrorist organizations to coerce and terrorize and otherwise disrupt the way of life of the men and women of the United States and our friends and allies around the world. There's no question that some steps will be visible as in a traditional conflict and in other cases they will be not visible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MCINTYRE: Secretary Rumsfeld said that there will be no D-Day in this war. No big significant event necessarily that kicks it off. But he laid the groundwork again for a war on all fronts that could take years to complete. You heard him there define what he considered the cost of victory. He also -- the definition of victory rather. He also said today that he just through deduction had no reason to believe the Taliban when they said they did not know the whereabouts of Osama bin Laden. He said you'd have to believe in the Tooth Fairy to believe that -- Wolf.
BLITZER: And briefly, Jamie, what's the latest on troop deployment?
MCINTYRE: Well, there have been another call-up of Reservists, about 2,000 this time. Already 12,000 or so had been called up. Most of these are Air Guard and Guard and Reserve troops that are supporting operations in the United States, but some of them are to support deployed forces, including some reconnaissance assets. The Bush administration has said that it will call up 35,000 troops all together. So this makes it about 14,000 at this point who are getting notices that they're being called up to active duty.
BLITZER: Thank you very much, Jamie McIntyre over at the Pentagon. And the United States is getting some help from its allies. Already a European Union delegation is seeking to drum up support in Muslim countries and Saudi Arabia has put more pressure on the Taliban. CNN's Christiane Amanpour is in Islamabad and earlier I spoke with her about the central role that Pakistan is playing in this crisis.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: Christiane, as you know a European Union delegation has been in Pakistan. What kind of reception have they received?
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, a good reception and a grateful reception from the Pakistani government certainly. And they've come here to bolster Pakistan and shore up the government's position with the people by talking about restarting aid and trade and economic relations and humanitarian aid. They've also come with a message that all the Arab and Muslim states need to stop any kind of financial institutions that facilitate the funding of terrorism. And, of course, they are here principally to shore up the United States led coalition and particularly to spread that word in the Islamic world.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAVIER SOLANA, COMMISSIONER, EUROPEAN UNION: We're here to continue constructive cooperation with the United States, a broader coalition. And the second to send a very clear message to all these countries that this battle against terrorism has nothing to do with a battle against Islam, against our countries. This is very, very important and they understand that and these are the two most important messages. Cooperation, yes. Cooperation in particularly share of intelligence, share of information and also something very, very important to stop the flats of resources, the flats of money that continue to flow to this organization.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So they're taking this message to Iran, to Saudi Arabia, to Egypt and to Syria. Again, warning them against allowing the financing of terrorism and assuring them that this is not a battle against Islam, but one against terror -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Christiane, until recently three states had the diplomatic relations with the Taliban regime in Afghanistan -- Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirate. The UAE severed ties over the weekend. Today, Saudi Arabia did. How much pressure is there now on Pakistan to formally end its diplomatic relationship with the Taliban?
AMANPOUR: Well, Saudi Arabia as you say yes did, is the latest one to have broken relations saying the Taliban have basically defamed the name of Islam. And Pakistan saying though, that although it has removed all its diplomatic staff from Afghanistan, it remains an open window should the Taliban decide to cooperate with the international community and require sending messages. Pakistan now the only remaining window and they're going to keep it that way.
BLITZER: And there appears to be a humanitarian crisis, potential on the horizon with huge numbers of refugees fleeing Afghanistan. What's the latest on that front?
AMANPOUR: Well, humanitarian concerns were very widely voiced here today. United Nations officials saying that they are extremely concerned that some one to two million Afghans inside the country potentially face hunger. There is about one week left of food supplies for them. And these number of people depend entirely on international assistance for their survival. Most especially at risk they say are the women and children who even before this crisis were at risk because of the appalling conditions. Listen, one in four kids they say dies before reaching the age of five. Every 15 minutes, a woman dies in childbirth. These are appalling figures and the worst for anywhere in the world outside of Africa. So they're very, very concerned about not being able to put humanitarian aid into Afghanistan and furthermore worryingly, their local staff who's been left behind to try to support the people are unable to work anymore because the Taliban has closed them down.
BLITZER: Christiane Amanpour in Islamabad. Once again, thank you very much.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: I also spoke by satellite phone earlier with CNN journalist Kamal Hyder, who gives us an exclusive report on life inside Taliban-controlled Afghanistan.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: Kamal, first of all, tell us briefly where are you right now?
KAMAL HYDER, CNN JOURNALIST: I'm in Eastern Afghanistan at this moment. I do not want to disclose my location simply because you are aware that foreign journalists are not allowed to be in Afghanistan at this moment.
BLITZER: What are you seeing and what are you hearing? How are the Taliban reacting to these threats coming from the United States?
HYDER: Well, it's not just the Taliban, as far as the Taliban are concerned. They may be a little bit more confusion than the regular population here. But most Afghans are basically very apprehensive. They've been in Afghanistan, which is an impoverished country. A country, which has basically fought for 23 years, is being targeted by one of the most technologically advanced nations on Earth. They cannot understand why the Afghan people are paying this price because they still remember Afghanistan as the recipient of military assistance from the United States when they fought that war against the Communists. Most people have very good memories of that American assistance and they feel perturbed about the fact that they now may be coming under attack from the country that helped them at the most crucial time in its history.
BLITZER: You know this area, this region very well. How much support do you believe that Osama bin Laden and his Al Qaeda organization have within Afghanistan?
HYDER: Well, as far as Al Qaeda or Osama bin Laden are concerned, the majority of Afghanistan's population by virtue of the fact that they are not even allowed to have photographs, do not even know what Osama bin Laden looks like. Most of these people are tribal. Most of Afghanistan's population, ruling population is tribal. And they are not particularly concerned with Osama bin Laden or his groups. Now Osama bin Laden may have some contacts with the ruling Taliban government, but the ruling Taliban government also continues to insist that the evidence provided by the United States was not adequate. It did not prove beyond a doubt that Osama bin Laden was indeed involved. And as far as the bombings, the recent bombings are concerned the Afghans say that the Americans are jumping to conclusions.
They do not know for sure that this was done by Osama bin Laden. They say that Osama bin Laden is a one-man organization. Even though it exists in Afghanistan, does not have the technological know how to be able to plan such a major operation. And most people here suspect that this could have been carried out by somebody else that the United States has not found him guilty or suspect that he may be guilty.
BLITZER: Kamal Hyder, thank you very much. Be safe over there. Thanks for joining us.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: Northern Afghanistan is the stronghold of the anti- Taliban forces and the scene of stepped up fighting in recent days. For the latest on the situation there, I checked in earlier with CNN's Chris Burns.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: Chris, first of all, tell us what's the latest in terms of the fighting, the on the ground activity that you can observe from your vantage point.
CHRIS BURNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Actually, very quiet from this end. We are some 30 kilometers from the front line, north of Kabul. That front line is about 50 kilometers north of the capital itself. Fairly quiet. There have been several days in the past during this week where we've heard some very, very intense artillery fire. The tanks of the Northern Alliance pounding away at the Taliban. They say that they are driving off Taliban buildup there, but really the focus of the fighting in the last day or so has been in the North, in three northern provinces and especially not far from Mazar-e-Sharif, which is a very strategic town in the north. Close to the border there and if the Northern Alliance can solidify its holdings up in that area and take that strategic city; it will be ready and able to move on toward Kabul and that is their strategy in any case. And the latest is that they have claimed a number of villages up in the North and have seized a number of weapons today actually.
BLITZER: As you know the leader of the Northern Alliance, Shah Massoud, was assassinated about two days before the World Trade Center attack. How united does the opposition, these resistance fighters, the United Front as they like to be called the Northern Alliance. How united are they in the aftermath of their leader having been assassinated?
BURNS: Yes, that assassination was aimed at causing disarray and there was a lot of fear about that even within the Alliance. But it seems to have backfired. It seems to have gone the other direction, that this so-called lion of Panjshir, who was known for facing off with the Russians 20 years ago and was very fierce in his fighting. He has died, but his other alliance, the people in the field who are fighting for him have really intensified their fighting. If you see across the countryside there are black flags in his honor. There are pictures that cover the windshields of trucks and cars -- just about everyone that drives by on the streets. So there really is a very, very intense feeling to avenge that murder.
BLITZER: And Chris, finally. The Russians now say they are prepared to start providing some weapons to the Northern Alliance. How significant a development would that be?
BURNS: Well, it's at least going public with something that's been going on for some time because there are sources within the Northern Alliance that say that they have been already buying at cut- rate prices ammunition from the Russians. Especially because most of the weaponry that the Northern Alliance has is ancient and dated ex- Soviet equipment: T-62 tanks and armored personnel carriers and so forth. That all belonged to the Soviets when they were here in Afghanistan. They left all that behind and that has to that needs ammunition. That ammunition has been bought from the Russians and now if the Russians are willing to publicly announce that they are willing to provide more weapons, at least increases that view that the Northern Alliance is gaining in its international appeal. Wolf.
BLITZER: Chris Burns, once again thank you very much. Chris Burns in Northern Afghanistan. It would once have seemed the unlikeliest of alliances. How can Russian President Vladimir Putin help the United States and Afghanistan? And as opposition forces battle the Taliban in Northern Afghanistan, I'll speak live with their representative here in Washington Haron Amid. Stay with us.
ANNOUNCER: The nation of Afghanistan spans approximately 648,000 square kilometers, only slightly smaller than the state of Texas.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: Afghanistan is the world's largest illicit opium supplier, producing over 1,600 metric tons in 1999. Major political factions in the country -- including the Taliban -- profit from the drug trade.
BLITZER: Welcome back. Russia is emerging as a key ally for the United States as it targets terrorism over the objections of many within the former Soviet Union.
CNN national correspondent David Ensor examines this latest chapter in relations between Washington and Moscow.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAVID ENSOR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The offer of help for the U.S. that Russia's President Vladimir Putin announced on television holds little back and signals he may now seek a new kind of U.S.-Russian relationship. The U.S. can use Russian airspace for relief missions. Russia will help with search and rescue efforts for pilots if needed. Russia will give more arms to the anti-Taliban Northern Alliance, in addition to intelligence sharing with the U.S.. But perhaps most important, the government of Tajikistan, next door to Afghanistan, has been told by Russia's defense minister that Moscow has no objection to the U.S. Air Force making use of the air base in Dushanbe, a key strategic asset for any airstrikes against Afghanistan. Since Tajikistan is protected by Russian troops, its government is not expected to disagree.
SERGEI IVANOV, RUSSIAN DEFENSE MINISTER: Considering the military presence, it's up to the United States to discuss separately with an independent state.
ENSOR: Russian officials say Putin rejected arguments that overt help for the U.S. could anger Muslims in Russia and Central Asia and increase support for people like Khattab, the Saudi-born Chechen warlord fighting Russian forces in rebellious Chechyna, who is believed to receive aid from Osama bin Laden's organization. MICHAEL MCFAUL, CARNEGIE ENDOWMENT: There are lots of statements out of Moscow the last several days saying this is a big mistake to cooperate. He chose to ignore those statements, ignore his own advisers and really lean towards the west.
RICHARD BOUCHER, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESMAN: We think that President Putin's remarks demonstrate that Russia can make a major contribution to the common struggle.
ENSOR: The U.S. reaction was positive if muted, considering the leader of the Kremlin had just said U.S. forces could go ahead and use a key Soviet former base.
MCFAUL: It has the potential to fundamentally alter international relations. This could really be the event that truly ends the Cold War and the lingering legacies that still now divide us.
ENSOR: But it could also begin a time of testing for Putin, in a nation where many are still profoundly suspicious of the United States.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ENSOR: The U.S. did send a signal on Chechyna that the Russians will likely appreciate. While urging greater respect for human rights there, a spokesman also said that Mr. Putin is right when he tells Chechen leaders to break off all contacts with international terrorist groups. David Ensor, CNN Washington.
BLITZER: And Russia is not the only new ally Washington has enlisted in its targeting of terrorism. Contacts have also increased with the opposition in Afghanistan.
We're joined now by Haron Amin, he's a special representative of the Afghan United Front, so-called Northern Alliance. Thanks for joining us. Haron. Tell us what the United States is doing to help your resistance fighters. We see now that the Russians are helping. What is the United States doing?
HARON AMIN, AFGHAN UNITED FRONT: So far, our contacts have been both on the ground as well as here in Washington. We hope that the international community's resolve, headed by the United States is going to realize that it's about time that not only for the Taliban who have harbored Osama bin Laden to go, but also for this campaign for all the state that are involved behind perpetration of these heinous crimes to go and be placed behind bars hopefully.
BLITZER: What are you asking the Bush administration to do?
AMIN: Well, we're asking. Our demands have been very clear. We have asked over the years that the United States should adopt a comprehensive policy towards the political sentiment of Afghanistan, but right now we hope that the military strikes, the military operation into Afghanistan will seek to do two things: Number one, it ought to be coordinated with our forces on the ground. We've got forces throughout the various parts of the country. But secondly also, the establishment of a broad-based government in the country that is, that would really resolve the problem of Afghanistan that has been around for so many years. Remember, Wolf that the result that we saw -- what we saw unravel here and in Washington as well as in New York on September 11th was basically the direct result of neglecting Afghanistan.
After the Soviet pullout from Afghanistan the post-Soviet integration, Afghanistan was dropped from the American list, from the American radar. And what happened was over the years, that was handed over to the Pakistani military intelligence who first harbored and helped (UNINTELLIGIBLE) half of Kabul into ashes and later on created their godchild known as the Taliban. And of course (UNINTELLIGIBLE) through Pakistan the Islamic extremists terrorists. So, what needs to happen is there needs to be a policy in place that will not give a free hand to various countries involved.
BLITZER: So you want the United States to help A) topple the Taliban regime and then B) help put a new government in force. You want the exiled King of Afghanistan who's been in Europe and Rome now for more than two decades, you want him to come back and assume his monarchy?
AMIN: No, we, what we want is we want U.S. involvement and we do want the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to get involved with our efforts on the ground. It's just a matter that the monarchy will not be restored, but of course the King, as the former monarch of Afghanistan, would be in a position to hopefully gather money and influential leaders from the country to go towards the implementation of the process of law. (UNINTELLIGIBLE), which is a grand assembly in the country, so that we can move on to a broad-based government.
BLITZER: The Wall Street Journal in an editorial wrote this yesterday. Let me read it to you: As long as they've got the Taliban as a threat -- they referring to the Northern Alliance, your organization -- will hold together. But if the Taliban fades away, it's likely they'll just go after each other.
AMIN: That is not true. That is not a true -- remember that we have had bickering in the past, I must confess to that. But also remember that this is a critical juncture for Afghanistan. We have learned from our past mistakes and I think that now everyone has realized that the future for Afghanistan, a good, stable future for Afghanistan, would be made possible, but it has to be done with the international cooperation. It has to be done with the involvement of various factions of Afghanistan, including the African Diaspora overseas.
BLITZER: You know the terrain in Afghanistan. We just saw it's about the size of Texas. How worried should the American public be about the potential of U.S. troops going in there on the ground to fight the Osama bin Laden forces, perhaps the Taliban.
AMIN: The terrain in Afghanistan is extremely difficult. I fought under command in the suit against the Soviets. But let me tell you that we are offering -- our organization the United Front is offering to do all the fighting on the ground ourselves. We know the geography. We know the people. We know the languages. And we've had the ability to infiltrate into the ranks of the Taliban. We can do all of this. What needs to happen are very, very simple things. The United States needs to use its leverage to tell the Pakistani military intelligence to stop supporting the Taliban.
As you and I are speaking right now, 15,000 armed Pakistani and military personnel are fighting alongside the Taliban and the country. The supply of arms that has been going on for years, that's got to stop.
And secondly what needs to happen is that assistance needs to be provided for us. We need various equipment, military supplies, telecommunications and other things. And there needs to be, thirdly, a coordination of ground forces, our ground forces, as well as something from the air.
BLITZER: I want to thank you. Unfortunately, we're all out of time. Haron Amin, thanks for joining us. Of course, the Pakistani government is denying some of the statements you just made. We'll get their perspective on another occasion. Thanks for joining us.
AMIN: Thank you, Wolf.
BLITZER: Thank you.
And more than a decade ago, the United States and its allies defeated Iraq in the Persian Gulf war. When we return, we'll go to Baghdad to take a closer look at Iraq today, and whether that country might become a target in the new battle against terrorism.
And we'll also hear what the House intelligence chairman and a former top counterterrorism official have to say about this new push to wipe out terrorism.
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BLITZER: Welcome back. Bush administration officials have pointedly not ruled out the possibility that Iraq might be a target of U.S. military action in this new war on terrorism. More than a decade after the Persian Gulf war, Iraqi President Saddam Hussein remains in power, and as defiant as ever against the United States and its Gulf War allies.
More on that story now, from CNN's Ben Wedeman in Baghdad.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Iraqi President Saddam Hussein has long seen himself as a leader in the struggle against what Baghdad calls U.S. imperialism.
Over the last decade, he has survived an international coalition that drove his forces out of Kuwait, repeated U.S.-led bombings, and crippling economic sanctions.
Says this Iraqi official, Iraq remains the base of inspiration of all movements of liberation and confrontation against Western imperialism.
As the U.S. pushes ahead with its campaign against Osama bin Laden, Iraq says it's a case of the pot calling the kettle black.
NAJI SABRI, IRAQI FOREIGN MINISTER: The United States is considered by many peoples in the world, including all Muslim and Arab peoples -- all Muslim and Arab peoples, consider the United States the master of terrorism, as the terrorist power No. 1 in the world.
WEDEMAN: That's at least how Baghdad sees it, though many Arab and Muslim states are lining up behind the U.S. Despite reports linking Iraqi intelligence with one of the suspected hijackers, Iraqi officials have been quick to stress their country had nothing to do with the 11th of September attacks on the United States. But with some Bush administration officials clamoring for the U.S. to strike Iraq, the state-run media has toned down its coverage of the attack.
Iraq, however, isn't holding its fire in other areas. It continues to challenge allied planes flying over the northern and southern no-fly zones, and shows no sign of wavering in its refusal to allow United Nations weapons inspectors to return. More than 2 1/2 years have passed since the last inspections took place.
(on camera): As the United States pursues Osama bin Laden, some here point to the Iraqi leader's survival as a lesson. It's one thing to identify your enemy, another altogether to defeat him.
Ben Wedeman, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: And should the United States be targeting Iraq? Will the terrorists who attacked New York and the Pentagon be able to use chemical or biological weapons the next time around? Can the U.S. prevent a next time?
Joining me now, former State Department counterterrorism official Larry Johnson and Congressman Porter Goss. He's the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee and he's himself a former CIA agent.
Congressman Goss, Mr. Chairman. let me begin with you. Should the United States be targeting Iraq right now as a suspect in these terrorist attacks?
REP. PORTER GOSS (R-FL), INTELLIGENCE CHAIRMAN: Absolutely yes. There is a long outstanding account with Iraq, and it would just plain be naive and foolish not to try and attend to directly what they are about these days. Saddam Hussein has made some very strong declarations about this country, has been extremely uncooperative, has tried to marshal international forces, public opinion against us, and basically deceive and mislead his population for years.
The fact that they are heavily involved in all kinds of cheating and other activities to get around the sanctions and contribute to the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and other plagues on society, seems to me they ought to be right up near the top of the list.
BLITZER: But, Mr. Chairman, is there any hard evidence that Iraq played a direct role in the attacks that occurred on September 11th here in the United States?
GOSS: This is an ongoing investigation, and I would prefer to let the investigation go a little further before we start answering specific questions like that. There is certain sufficient evidence out there to warrant targeting of Iraq for investigation purposes.
BLITZER: Larry Johnson, let me read to you from an editorial that was in today's "Los Angeles Times." It said this: "Smashing the bin Laden network will require toppling the Taliban. But intervening now in Iraq would crack up the international coalition before it has been built. Immediate intervention there wouldn't isolate terrorists, it would isolate the United States." Is that true?
LARRY JOHNSON, FORMER COUNTERTERRORISM OFFICIAL: Well, I think that's potentially true. What we've got to look at is this did not just develop overnight. It's been fostering for a while. We've allowed countries like Afghanistan to continue hosting terrorists for several years without really taking effective action. We have allowed Lebanon, backed by Syria and Iran, to host terrorists carrying out attacks against Israel.
So it's like, when you're going to go out and start cleaning up a mess that a tornado has made, you just don't do it in one day. And I think the measured step-by-step approach that we're seeing by the Bush administration right now is exactly on target.
BLITZER: Mr. Chairman, one of your colleagues, Eric Cantor, a Republican Congressman from Virginia, had issued this statement -- he's the chairman of the terrorism task force in the House. He said this: "The United States should proceed with great caution when tactical requirements or geographic realities require coordination with nations such as Iran, Iraq, Syria, or other countries that are currently listed by the State Department as terrorist states."
As you know, the U.S. is trying to work with those nations right now, including Iran and Syria, to be part of this coalition against Osama bin Laden. Is that a faulty premise?
GOSS: I think it's very important that we give those states the opportunity to make the decision that the president has clearly placed before them: that either you will be on the side of dealing with the international terrorist problem and fighting it, or you won't. And I think that those opportunities are there for some of those states.
Now, there is terrorism all around the world, and there are some areas that have a very unsavory history of supporting terrorism, and much more complicity than other areas. On the other hand, there are some areas that have begun to change their minds a little bit about where they want to be. I think we want to encourage that. We want to encourage people to do the right thing. We have to do it with our eyes open, but when the line is drawn in the sand, as the president has done, and you come down on wrong side of it, then you have to be prepared to accept the consequence. And of course, there will be consequences.
BLITZER: Larry Johnson, I know you are specifically more concerned about Iran, I think, than you are about Iraq right now. Is that right?
JOHNSON: Well, simply because we, in the trial of the east Africa embassy bombers, last October, Ali Mohamed pled guilty and testified to, swore to that bin Laden had contact with Imad Mughniyah, the Hezbollah security chief. Hezbollah security chief Mughniyah is protected by Iran, and it goes to the revolutionary guards. So there is a clear terrorism link there that we can't ignore.
Now, I agree. If Iran comes onboard and says we're going to swear off terrorism, they just sponsored a conference in the spring. They're going to stop sponsoring terrorist conferences, if they're going to turn over Imad Mughniyah, who until last Tuesday, had killed more Americans than any other terrorist, then I think there is something to talk about. But they've got a high barrier to cross here.
BLITZER: Mr. Chairman, how worried should Americans be right now about the threat of biological or chemical terrorism?
GOSS: Real concern, for those of us in the business of making sure we have the capabilities and those professionals who discharge those capabilities, it is obviously something that is on our minds. I don't think the average American needs to stop doing what are they doing. I think the federal government is putting every possible investigative technique to work on this. And I think that we are certainly aware of the threats, and trying to provide the adequate protection against them.
When all is said and done, you cannot give a hundred percent assurances, of course. But I think one of the weapons of terrorism is to create a fear and confusion, and use psychological warfare after a horrible tragic event, such as we saw on September 11th. And it's very easy to try and sort of stroke the confusion onto more fear by putting out stories that suddenly we are going to have a huge, cruel, horrible episode that is going to come from chemical and biological warfare. I know of no specific threat to the United States on that. Our guard is up, our vigilance is good. And I would say go about your business.
BLITZER: You know, Larry Johnson, I can't tell you how many of our viewers have e-mailed me over the past few days, asking me whether they should go out and buy gas masks, whether they should get vaccinations for anthrax. It's going all over the place. What do you say about that?
JOHNSON: Ten years ago, we were not in very good shape to face this threat. We're in much better shape today because of steps that were taken after the sarin gas attack in Tokyo.
The good news is, for groups like bin Laden, I don't want to say it's not possible, but it is very, very difficult to produce these agents, and to produce them in a way without killing themselves. That said, we are take appropriate measures. The Congress has approved money, the money has been spent and the capabilities are out there to help protect Americans. So I think reality, don't buy a gas mask, because if it really is a biological agent or a chemical agent, that's not going to help you. And I think it's an unnecessary level of fear.
Congressman Goss is exactly right. We need to calm down, take a big, deep breath. We'll get through this. But the real threat comes more on the conventional side, and that where I think our focus has to be right now.
BLITZER: And finally, Mr. Chairman, what about a crude nuclear device getting in the hands of terrorists? Is that a legitimate fear?
GOSS: I think it's not high on the list of likely prospects of things to worry about. I think that the terrorist playbook very clearly talks about going after the weakest, the most vulnerable people in the most atrocious ways, and using the sort of the most surprise tactics that they can continue to keep you off balance on. I don't believe that trying to come up with a nuclear capability right now fits that sort of playbook, and I don't think that they have that specific capability.
That doesn't mean to say that terrorists thrive on asymmetrical warfare, and they will continue probably to try and develop leads to create some kind of a nuclear line that has some credibility so that that's one more thing they can scare us with. But again, that would be falling into their ploys, to start believing that stuff. It's is just not there now. There is no specific threat from that quarter, and I would have confidence that we can go about our business without worrying about that right now. People working on those kinds of problems are very well about their business.
BLITZER: OK, I guess the United States -- the American people have enough to worry about without having to worry about that. I want to thank both of you for joining us, Larry Johnson, Mr. Chairman Congressman Goss, I know it's been a busy night in between votes up on Capitol Hill. Thanks so much for taking some time with us.
And up next, as the new war on terrorism gets under way, the U.S. military gets ready. Just ahead in a live report, CNN's Miles O'Brien will ask an air national guard wing commander what it's like to tell his pilots they may have to shoot down a plane full of civilians.
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BLITZER: Welcome back. As men and women at military bases around the United States get ready for their role in America's new was against terrorism, they're contemplating another difficult decision: when a national threat involves the need, potentially, to shoot down a commercial plane, full of passengers.
CNN's Miles O'Brien talks about that with an Air National Guard wing commander there at Otis Air National Guard Base in Massachusetts. This is an amazing story, Miles. Tell us about it.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, this is the maintenance hangar here at the Otis Air National Guard Base. These are some of the F-15s, 18 of them, that have been on a high state of readiness since September 11th. As a matter of fact, two of them were the first to scramble toward New York when word got out that there were some hijacked airliners on their way on that terrible day.
This F-15 is in the shop right now, but undoubtedly will be out very soon. Let's talk to the wing commander here, the man in charge of this group of Air National Guardsmen, who are working very busily right now, a high state of readiness, Colonel Don Quenneville.
Colonel, thanks for being with us.
COL. DON QUENNEVILLE, WING COMMANDER, OTIS AIR NATIONAL GUARD BASE: Thank you, Miles.
O'BRIEN: This is a tough situation. It's not the enemy which you all trained to fight many years ago. This was an old post where you used to intercept Soviet bombers, for example.
Now the potential mission is to seek out a civilian airliner. How do you tell your pilots to handle that kind of an order?
QUENNEVILLE: Well, as always, every one of our orders comes down from North American Aerospace Defense Commander, NORAD. And they have established rules of engagement for us to follow. Every one of our pilots, whether operating here in States or whether we're overseas for another contingency, is fully conversant in what those rules of engagement are.
And as a result of that knowledge, they go up there to the unknown -- the information about that unknown that they have has been provided by one of the controlling sectors within the United States. They tell us where these target is, approximately. We get over there, use our radar from this F-15, to go ahead and determine where that target is, provide data to them even before we get it within visual range. And then, as we get in closer, if they want us to, they go ahead and have us identify it by type, by visual identification.
O'BRIEN: All right. But that makes it all sound almost clinical. The fact remains that the possibility exists that the people here might be faced with the prospect of shooting down an airliner with civilians onboard. That's a difficult thing to do.
QUENNEVILLE: Absolutely. And again. it goes back to those rules of engagement that NORAD has established, based on inputs from the highest civilian and military leadership in the country. And they established these rules and they help us to go ahead and find this aircraft. Once we get there we have to make the identification, tell them what we see and if necessary, if it's a threat to the United States, for -- whether it's our infrastructure, our people or our facilities, then the decision is made whether we go ahead and destroy the airplane.
O'BRIEN: What are your pilots telling you? Are they telling you this is a more difficult mission for them than missions past? QUENNEVILLE: I think from the perspective of the operational side of things, it's the same mission as before. I think they have to do a lot of thinking before they go out there to ensure that they're ready to go ahead and accept this new challenge, because it could very well be an American airliner.
O'BRIEN: All right. Let me ask you this. You have this high state of readiness, you've had to activate several members of this guard unit, a lot of work keeping these airplanes going. How long can you go, at this level of readiness?
QUENNEVILLE: Well, right now we seem to be going along fine. Obviously, the airplanes break on occasion, and that's why we have these great maintenance folks here that are fixing them. And they fix them at night, when sometimes we're not as high in off-tempo as we are during the daytime. That varies, based on our NORAD tasking. But we've been able to go ahead and maintain this now for the last two weeks, and to provide that increased level of readiness that we're under right now.
O'BRIEN: And looking at the big picture here, this is just one of many bases right now tasked with homeland defense. Is there a sufficient net out there, from where you sit?
QUENNEVILLE: Well, that's determined by, certainly by the folks at NORAD and the people at the NORAD region down in Tindle Air Force Base in Florida. And they have established 26 alert sites across the country that they feel provide the network that they need to provide homeland defense.
O'BRIEN: Colonel Don Quenneville, who is the wing commander here, the 102nd fighter wing here at Otis Air National Guard Base, one of several bases on a high state of alert right now, in the wake of what happened on September 11th. This group, just this one wing, 500,000 square miles is their responsibility, all the way up to the Canadian border, all the way over to Detroit -- Wolf?
BLITZER: Miles O'Brien, thank you very much. You tell that commander to take you up in one of those planes. We know you're a pilot yourself. You'll enjoy it, and we'll look forward to that report. Thanks for joining us.
And as the U.S. prepares for a new war on terrorism, coming up, CNN's Jeff Flock goes aboard an aerial refueling tanker, one of the most dangerous jobs in the military. It will be critical in the war against terrorism.
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BLITZER: Welcome back. To the pilots fighting on the front lines, the KC-135 stratotanker is a gas station with wings, and a place where combat pilots pit stop at 30,000 feet. CNN's Jeff Flock reports.
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JEFF FLOCK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It is complex aerial ballet, and we have a front row seat.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where is the box going to show up?
FLOCK: An F-16 fighter and a giant KC-135 tanker dancing in step at 400 miles an hour. This man is the choreographer.
(on camera): How tricky is this?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, once you have the proper training it's -- it seems easy.
FLOCK (voice-over): You'll have to do without his name. These days, the military says that would make him too much of a target. We'll call him "Al." He is the boom operator on the airborne gas station that is the KC-135, refueling everything from B-52s to stealth bombers, to these F-16 fighters.
The work starts when news comes the thirsty fighters are approaching. Al heads to the back of the giant plane, and from a perch on his stomach, he goes through his book of procedures, deploys the massive winged boom that will ferry the gas and tests the controls. Out a side window, the F-16s appear on the wing.
(on camera): How soon do you think you're going be kicking in here?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, in about two minutes.
FLOCK (voice-over): Out the rear window, Al talks and directs the fighter to within 20 feet.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This pilot director lights over here, and then we give him a signal to move forward, aft, up or down.
FLOCK: The first plane locks on. Up in the cockpit, the captain works to keep the KC-135 steady.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And 61 had disconnect. And it's moving to the right.
FLOCK: One down, one to go.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Snake two -- boomer...
FLOCK: But this one approaches a little too fast.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 6-1 disconnect.
FLOCK: Al aborts the link-up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sorry about that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sometimes they're right on, sometimes they have to reattempt.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, let's try this baby again. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Roger that.
FLOCK: This time, the boom finds its mark and the gas flows.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have 2,000 so far.
FLOCK: A successful mission. But everybody knows, this is just a test.
I'm Jeff Flock, CNN, aboard a KC-135 over Illinois
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: I'll be back in a moment with the latest developments, as America targets terrorism. Stay with us.
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BLITZER: Finally, an update on some of the latest developments we're following right now. Attorney General John Ashcroft raised the possibility of more attacks, saying people with possible terrorist ties held or tried to get licenses to transport hazardous materials.
The United Nations says a humanitarian crisis of stunning proportions is unfolding in Afghanistan, as people flee ahead of an expected U.S. attack.
And New York's mayoral primary resumed today after being postponed September 11th. Mayor Rudy Giuliani has not yet said if he will try to overcome term limits and run again.
That's all the time we have tonight. Tomorrow night and every night this week, join us at our new starting time of 7:00 p.m. Eastern for a full hour. Until then, thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. "THE POINT WITH GRETA VAN SUSTEREN" begins right now.
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