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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

War Room: The Saudi Role

Aired October 31, 2001 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS, "The War Room." As the U.S. steps up the war in Afghanistan, will a key ally stand up and be counted?

We'll get a live update from the Pentagon and a look at whether Saudi Arabia is helping or hindering the war against terror. Are Saudis financing Osama bin Laden? Will they let U.S. warplanes launch strikes from their air bases?

I'll speak live with Adel al-Jubeir, foreign policy adviser to the Saudi government. I'll also speak with a sharp critic, investigative reporter Seymour Hersh.

And we'll get military analysis from retired Air Force Major General Don Shepperd as we go into the "War Room."

Good evening. Welcome to our viewers in the United States and around the world. I'm Wolf Blitzer reporting tonight from Washington.

Let's check the latest developments this hour.

Attorney General John Ashcroft is pushing for some changes in immigration laws. He wants the State Department to designate 46 groups as terrorist organizations. Ashcroft says that would stop suspected terrorists from entering the United States and would allow authorities to deport those already here.

The House of Representatives votes tomorrow on an airline security bill. The Senate already has passed a bill requiring all airport security workers to become federal employees. President Bush and House Republicans want federal supervisors to oversee a private airline security force.

And the death of a New York City hospital worker from inhalation anthrax is listed as a homicide. The victim worked in a supply room at Manhattan Eye, Ear and Throat Hospital. Authorities are trying to determine how she came in contact with the deadly bacteria.

In Afghanistan, the U.S.-led attacks go on. And for the first time in the campaign, U.S. warplanes are using a technique known as carpet bombing against Taliban targets.

For the latest on the campaign, we go to CNN military affairs correspondent Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon -- Jamie. JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, it's not the first time the United States has used carpet bombing in Afghanistan. But it's the first time it's used it with this intensity against frontline troops.

The whole idea is to pave the way for opposition forces to take two Taliban strongholds in the north.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): While the overall number of U.S. planes attacking Afghanistan in the fourth week of the air campaign remains unchanged, it may not seem that way to Taliban troops on the frontlines, who are bearing the brunt of the bombing.

In addition to precision strikes by more than 50 Navy jets, about a half-dozen Air Force heavy bombers, B-1s and B-52s, are carpet bombing the Taliban frontlines, dropping hundreds of unguided bombs in an effort to decimate and demoralize the dug-in forces who are holding back the opposition troops of the Northern Alliance.

REAR ADMIRAL JOHN STUFFLEBEEM, PENTAGON SPOKESMAN: Often times, if the target presents itself either in an engagement zone or when directed, it's possible to release an entire load of bombs at once.

MCINTYRE: The Pentagon's target map shows how the U.S. bombing has almost completely shifted to areas around two Taliban strongholds: the strategic northern crossroads of Mazar-e-Sharif and the Afghan capital of Kabul, both of which the United States would like to see fall soon to the anti-Taliban Northern Alliance.

The Pentagon says the Taliban forces may not even realize the extent of their losses because with communications knocked out, they have little contact with their leader.

STUFFLEBEEM: They are still attempting to be able to communicate with Mullah Omar. They are also trying to be resupplied and reinforced and they are having difficulties in all of that.

MCINTYRE: The Pentagon insists its war plan is on track and producing results. And at least one former commander agrees.

RETIRED GENERAL WESLEY CLARK, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: This is a process that may take weeks or months. There is no rush and the people who are in a hurry are the Taliban. They want it stopped because it's hurting them.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE: And Pentagon sources tell CNN tonight that the effectiveness of the bombing campaign is expected to increase with the addition of two high-tech warplanes that the U.S. plans to send to the region.

One: the experimental Global Hawk unmanned high-flying spy plane and two: the J-Stars, or Joint Stars aircraft, that has a proven record from the Persian Gulf war of being able to spot targets on the ground -- Wolf.

BLITZER: And, Jamie, with this stepped-up U.S. airstrike campaign, does -- any indication the Northern Alliance are going to step up their offensive or at least try an offensive?

MCINTYRE: Well, they are stepping up their talk about it.

They seem to have been pretty much encouraged by the new focus on the frontline troops. And with the Pentagon having already taken out a lot of the supply lines and a lot of the reinforcements -- the ways for the Taliban to reinforce -- it could be a matter of days before they decide to make a move.

But at this point, there's no indication that they are ready yet to move in. They still want to watch those U.S. war planes continue to weaken the Taliban frontlines.

BLITZER: Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon, thank you very much.

Has U.S. troops -- have U.S. troops in the past given their lives -- U.S. troops in the past have given their lives, excuse me, to defend Saudi Arabia. But have the Saudis given the United States the help it needs in the war against terrorism?

CNN national security correspondent David Ensor reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Ever since it emerged that many of the September 11 terrorists were apparently Saudis, there have been tough questions in Washington: Is the Saudi royal family doing enough to curb the activities of the group led by Saudi-born exile Osama bin Laden?

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: I have no information about a single detention or arrest of a person within Saudi Arabia. Money from Saudi Arabia went to al Qaeda networks. There's no doubt about that.

ENSOR: The U.S. Treasury Department agrees.

Among individuals and organizations it lists as helping to fund bin Laden's al Qaeda: a charity run by a wealthy Saudi businessman, Yasin Kadi.

YASIN KADI, SAUDI BUSINESSMAN: I have nothing to do whatsoever with bin Laden and his group.

ENSOR: Over the years, critics also charge, Saudi money has funded mosques and madrassa schools around the Muslim world, offering strict Wahhabi Islam laced with hatred of the West.

RICHARD PERLE, CHAIRMAN, DEFENSE POLICY BOARD: The imams are preaching the most poisonous, anti-Western, anti-American creed. This has to stop. ENSOR: But Bush administration officials say when it comes to investigating the crimes of September 11, the Saudis are cooperating fully. And that they are also freezing assets of suspected financiers of al Qaeda.

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: The Saudis have been responsive on all the things that we have asked them to do.

ENSOR: And not only do the Saudis quietly allow Prince Sultan Air Base to serve as a key command-and-control center for the operations over Afghanistan. They also do something much more important, using their control of a quarter of the world's oil to keep supplies coming and prices steady.

GEOFFREY KEMP, NIXON CENTER: It is a key player in the world economy. We can not get around that fact. We are much better off with corrupt princes whose future may be in doubt than a radicalized Saudi Arabia or a Saudi Arabia in flames.

ENSOR (on camera): In fact, Saudi Arabia and this country need each other.

Still, U.S. officials say they'll be watching closely to see whether U.N. Security Council Resolution 1373, banning financing of terrorists, is rigorously enforced in the country that produced so many of the terrorists of September 11.

David Ensor, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Is Saudi Arabia doing all it can to fight terrorism? How strained is the important relationship with the United States, if at all?

Joining me now here in the "War Room" is Adel al-Jubeir -- spent years in Washington as a Saudi diplomat. He's now the foreign policy adviser to Crown Prince Abdullah.

Mr. al-Jubeir, thank you so much for joining us.

And you heard the barrage of criticism coming. One of the more significant you heard from Richard Perle, saying Saudi Arabia over the years has funded these religious schools, these madrassas, for example, in Pakistan from which the anti-American, anti-Western feelings spring.

ADEL AL-JUBEIR, SAUDI FOREIGN POLICY ADVISER: I think that, unfortunately, a lot of the criticism is not justified. Saudi Arabia has been funding a moderate version of Islam. We are very proud of our faith. We adhere to it. We support Islamic institutions around the world but we don't support terrorism.

Our faith teaches us -- is a peaceful faith. It teaches compassion, love of humanity. It doesn't preach violence and murder of people. And the charges that Saudi Arabia has in any way been supporting terrorism or the murder of innocent people are just not accurate.

BLITZER: But the notion that these terrorists, the al Qaeda group, those who support Osama bin Laden, have been coming from that extreme form of that fundamentalist Islam.

And some of it, over the years, private Saudis as well some Saudi government money, has supported these organizations as well as the religious schools that promote them.

AL-JUBEIR: Well, I would take exception with that statement because Saudi government money and Saudi private money, as far as we know, has not funded any groups that advocate terrorism or that are engaged in terrorism.

Saudi private funding has gone to charitable organizations. Charitable organizations by -- have had activities all around the world. And does this mean that none of this money has gone to people who may have caused mischief? Maybe, maybe not -- But does it mean that the intention was there to support terrorists groups? Absolutely not.

You can give money to Save the Children today and Save the Children operates in Afghanistan. If they save the life of a child whose father is a member of the Taliban, is the person who made the donation to Save the Children a sponsor of terrorism? I don't believe so. I believe the intention was to help children.

BLITZER: Are the Saudis -- your government -- Saudi Arabian government going to freeze all the assets as the United States has done to these dozens of various groups associated with Osama bin Laden?

AL-JUBEIR: We already have. Your own Treasury Department today confirmed this.

We are committed to fighting terrorism. We are committed to working with the rest of the international community to end the scourge of terrorism around the world, and we are glad that people now are cooperating.

We have been victims of terrorism for the last 40 years. We have been trying for the last 10 years, in particular, to try to bring about international cooperation on issues like financial transfer, on issues like providing safe harbor, whether that safe harbor is in Afghanistan or incidentally Europe.

Now, the world seems to be moving in a direction of cooperating on this issue.

BLITZER: Seymour Hersh, the investigative journalist, who's going to be on this program shortly, he wrote an article in the October 22nd issue of "The New Yorker." Among other things he wrote this -- and we'll put it up on our screen: "The intelligence intercepts" -- U.S. intelligence intercepts -- "depict a regime" -- a "Saudi regime," he says -- "increasingly corrupt, alienated from the country's religious rank-and-file, and so weakened and frightened that it has brokered its future by channeling hundreds of millions of dollars in what amounts to protection to fundamentalist groups that wish to overthrow it."

We heard a similar accusation the other night from Richard Pearle on this program.

AL-JUBEIR: This is the example of opinions and accusations. If they are statements in fact, where is the evidence?

I know the article you're talking about. I don't want to dignify it by paying too much attention to it. But the -- the charges that are made in that article are simply not correct.

Where are these officials who say this stuff?

BLITZER: But you know, Seymour Hersh...

AL-JUBEIR: The country you're describing is not a country that I come from. It's not the country that I was born in or that I was raised in.

BLITZER: Seymour Hersh is not the only one. Even Senator McCain, we heard in David Ensor's piece -- I interviewed him Sunday. In fact, we have this excerpt, let me play another excerpt of what Senator McCain had to say on Sunday about Saudi Arabia and the U.S.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: I think the Saudis are not doing what the president asked all countries to do, and that is to take sides. I think they're trying to go down the middle of the road here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AL-JUBEIR: ... tremendous respect for Senator McCain's opinion. I believe on this case he may not be as well-informed as he should be.

The issue -- in fact, your own president has repeatedly stated that he's very satisfied with the cooperation that the kingdom has provided in this effort as have other senior officials on the record.

BLITZER: All right, we're going to take a quick break, but stand by. We're going to continue this conversation when we come back.

Here in the war room, the battle against terrorism. Is Saudi Arabia part of the problem or part of the solution? Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. The focus in our war room tonight is Saudi Arabia. Is it doing enough to fight terrorism?

I'm joined now by Seymour Hersh, a Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist. He's made a career of looking under the rocks, and in "The New Yorker" magazine, recently alleged widespread corruption in the Saudi royal family. A former U.S. diplomat, Ken McKune spent many years in the Middle East, including Saudi Arabia. And for a military perspective, we're joined by CNN analyst, retired Air Force Major General Don Shepperd. Still with us, of course, is the Saudi foreign policy adviser Adel Al-Jubeir. And thanks to all of you for joining us.

And Sy Hersh, let me let you have the first chance to respond. You heard Adel Al-Jubeir say that what you wrote is simply not true.

SEYMOUR HERSH, "THE NEW YORKER": I think what's important -- we can argue the facts back and forth. What's important is that his man, King -- Crown Prince Abdullah, get into power quickly.

I don't think there's any question -- and I'm sure you'll agree with me that if he were to become the king, I think things would get much better, because he's a reformer. He wants to change the way things are inside that country. He's -- we were talking about some material I had from the intelligence community.

He's all over it, advocating more integrity among the royal family, less corruption, enough of the womanizing...

BLITZER: But the charge you make is that the Saudis are paying both privately and as well as government wise, in effect they're paying to silence their critics.

Standard mafia stuff. It's like, you know, the mafia come in and knock on your door, and say they'll break the window, you know, in your bar if you don't give them protection money. So they're paying protection money basically to a lot of fundamentalist groups.

AL-JUBEIR: Where is the evidence, if I may ask?

HERSH: Well, the American government, I will tell you, has an amazing amount of evidence.

AL-JUBEIR: How come you're the only one in the U.S. that has been able to get access to this?

HERSH: I don't know. I can't tell you. But I can tell you that what I reported does exist. It's very clear. There's an enormous amount of conversations that we have intercepted over the last seven years that show -- you know, some of the details that "The New Yorker" didn't write. I mean, senior members of the royal family arranging for prostitutes to come and shows. These kinds of things, they're just outrageous.

AL-JUBEIR: How can -- how can anyone even respond to something like that?

BLITZER: Well, let me -- let me...

(CROSSTALK)

Mr. McKune, you lived in Saudi Arabia. You were a diplomat at the U.S. embassy there, spent many years there. Is what Sy Hersh is saying, is that accurate, that protection money in effect is being paid to silence -- to keep the Saudi royal family in power?

KENNETH MCKUNE, FORMER STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: I don't agree. The thrust of those allegations are not substantiated by what I saw in Saudi Arabia and what I know from my years of service in various capitals in the Middle East.

There's corruption by individuals in any country. Governments -- all governments have this. The income taxes of Saudi princes are not printed, so I don't have specific evidence about this case or that case. But I do think in general that the Saudi system gets a bum rap from the American media on the issue of corruption.

HERSH: May I ask you a question?

MCKUNE: Yes.

HERSH: You know that Prince Bandar, the ambassador here since '83, said on a public television show the other day -- I'm going to paraphrase what he said. We have spent $400 billion rebuilding our society, and if 50 billion is somehow lost and taken away, so what? You know, that's -- what's so bad about that? That's literally his words. I think you'll agree that's essentially what he said.

AL-JUBEIR: The point -- the point he's making is that when we were -- when we were spending tremendous amounts of money to develop Saudi Arabia -- incidentally, we spent $1.2 trillion through 1975 and today to develop the country, to turn a country from a sand box into a modern nation, to take the standard of living of Saudis and raise it from 37 or 38 years to 70 years, to take infant mortality rates from the level of sub-Saharan Africa to the level of Southern Europe. These are all incredible achievements.

When we make mistakes along the way -- and we're the first to admit those were mistakes that were made with good intentions. We may have decided we needed housing for our citizens, so we built high rises. It turns out our citizens didn't want high rises, so we had empty buildings.

HERSH: Again, with all respect...

AL-JUBEIR: I mean...

HERSH: He said $50 billion went into the pockets. He said this on television.

AL-JUBEIR: That's not what he said. That's not what he said.

(CROSSTALK)

HERSH: No, no, no.

AL-JUBEIR: The point was if there are inefficiencies -- and besides, when you look -- when I remember my days in Washington, I remember $600 ashtrays in the Pentagon. I see the pork barrel every year in the United States Congress. You have bases that people want to close and that others want to keep open for their own purposes. Is this waste? Of course, it's waste.

HERSH: May I come at it another way?

AL-JUBEIR: But what it says, what I'm trying to say is that we're not angels, we're human beings. And human beings are mortal and they have faults. We have faults, you have faults. The objective is, can we make our system better? Yes, we can. Are we trying to make our system better? Of course we are.

HERSH: Why do you explain the popularity of by Osama bin Laden among the rank-and-file, the non-royal members of the Saudi...

AL-JUBEIR: Again, are you expressing your opinion or is this a statement of fact? If it's a statement of fact, where's the evidence? I come from Saudi Arabia. I walk the streets of Saudi Arabia every day when I'm there. I don't see the popularity of...

BLITZER: Let's let Mr. McKune, you lived there. You were a U.S. diplomat. How popular is al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden, what they stand for, in Saudi Arabia?

MCKUNE: I believe that Mr. bin Laden and his associates are able to tap a public sentiment of unhappiness of Muslims not only in Saudi Arabia, but generally, because they feel that their causes and interests haven't been given sufficient respect, attention, treatment. And he plays on that very effectively.

This does not translate, in my opinion, into the willingness of Saudis in general to have a new system led by Osama or anyone that he appoints or anyone that he likes.

BLITZER: All right. Let's take a step back and take a look at Saudi Arabia, the strategic role that it plays -- we have a map I want to put up -- and bring General Shepperd in, a retired U.S. Air Force major general.

Take a look over here, and we'll go to our telestrator. This, of course, is Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan is over here. But this is Afghanistan right over here.

There is a key base over here, General Shepperd, as you well know, the air base in Saudi Arabia. But Mr. Al-Jubeir, the U.S. is not allowing U.S. planes from the Sultan air base here in Saudi Arabia to fly and drop bombs in Afghanistan. Is that right?

AL-JUBEIR: Well, your government never asked for it. There was never a request for use of the air base for launching offensive operations.

BLITZER: General Shepperd, would that base be important? I mean, is that a kind of question the U.S. doesn't ask because it knows in advance what the answer is going to be?

RETIRED GEN. DONALD SHEPPERD, U.S. AIR FORCE: Two -- no, two answers. The base is not important to strike Afghanistan now and we have not asked for that very reason. It could be key in other times. And remember, we've been at war over Iraq north of the 32nd parallel and south of the 34th parallel for the last 10 years since the Gulf War. Saudi Arabia and their cooperation has been key in all of that.

So it's key to certain things, not key to the strikes going on in Afghanistan right now.

BLITZER: Sy Hersh, you have to admit that the Saudis did play a critical role strategically during the Gulf War a decade ago?

HERSH: They certainly got something for it, too. I mean, they certainly -- they got us coming and fighting the war.

I think the important thing here is again I think the reality is this is a country on the edge, that the royal family is hanging on. I'm just telling you (UNINTELLIGIBLE) a certain -- you may disagree. This is a country...

AL-JUBEIR: Not may, I do.

HERSH: ... that if we don't begin to at least in our own dealing with it be more honest and straightforward about what the reality is...

BLITZER: Let me get some -- is -- is there a fear, a realistic possibility that the monarchy in Saudi Arabia could be overthrown?

MCKUNE: I would be flabbergasted. I think that's nonsense talk.

BLITZER: What's the attitude of the U.S. military about Saudi Arabia?

SHEPPERD: Saudi Arabia -- and I'm staying in my military lane as far away from this as I can as far as the political discussion. Saudi Arabia is key. It's about access to the region. Not only the Afghanistan solution over there and other things that we may need, but if we have, in the future, have to take more action against Iraq because of weapons of mass destruction, Saudi Arabia will be key there also.

BLITZER: Well, let me ask Al-Jubeir, if the U.S. decides to expand this war not only against targets in Afghanistan, but targets in Iraq, would Saudi Arabia stand with the U.S.?

AL-JUBEIR: I think that's a hypothetical question, and I would rather not answer hypothetical questions. I'm not trying to avoid your question, but we will cross that bridge when we get there.

BLITZER: Does Saudi Arabia support the U.S. strikes against targets in Afghanistan?

AL-JUBEIR: We support the U.S. effort as do the 55 Muslim countries who are part of the Organization of Islamic Countries Conference the efforts to combat terrorism. And we support the efforts that are currently going on. We also feel an incredible attachment to the Afghan people and to the suffering that the innocent Afghan people are subject to through no fault of their own. And it is our desire and our hope that the objective of this effort can be achieved very quickly so that the campaign can be brought to an end quickly with a minimum suffering among the Afghans.

BLITZER: Sy Hersh, we have an e-mail from Virgil, who e-mailed us from Portland -- Portland some place. Portland, Maine maybe.

"Why don't we take our troops out of Saudi Arabia? It is obviously an affront to many Muslims to have us in their holy land."

HERSH: That's one of the questions: Because I don't think we're ready to deal with the reality, at least not officially. This government doesn't want to deal, as have past governments. Simply, the reality is, whether we like it or not, this is a country in a lot of trouble with a lot of opposition and lot of dissent and a lot of unhappy people who do not get the benefit. And the faster we start dealing more realistically, and by the way, get rid of the charade of a crippled King Fahd and put Abdullah, or at least make it known that we'd like to see something happen, I think it'd be great.

BLITZER: So those are decisions the Saudis have to make, Mr. McKune?

MCKUNE: Indeed. The stability of the governmental system in Saudi Arabia is something that impresses me. The relationship among the princes in the family over the years has been, in modern times, remarkable, particularly considering, as Mr. Al-Jubeir pointed out, the vast amount of change that that country has gone through.

BLITZER: All right. We have to unfortunately leave it right there, because we're all out of time. But we will continue this discussion. I want to thank all of us, especially Mr. Al-Jubeir for visiting Washington and coming on our program. Thanks to all of you as well. Sy Hersh, always a pleasure as well. Mr. McKune.

For our viewers in North America, "CROSSFIRE" comes your way at the bottom of the hour. Bob Novak joins us now live with a preview -- Bob.

ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST, CNN'S "CROSSFIRE": Wolf, thank you very much.

No airport security bill yet. Seven weeks after the September 11th attacks, they're still arguing in Congress over whether the new- and-improved baggage screeners shall be government employees. But the House finally will vote tomorrow, and we have two House members here to continue the debate next in the "CROSSFIRE."

BLITZER: Thank you very much, Bob. We'll be watching.

Under armed guard, a fortune is removed from the rubble of the World Trade Center, what was the World Trade Center, that is. The story when we return.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BLITZER: Now here's a look at our latest developments. Taliban positions in Afghanistan were pounded today by U.S. jets. The bombings are said to be some of the most powerful since the campaign began almost four weeks ago.

In an effort to combat messages sympathetic to the Taliban, the American and British governments are teaming up. They'll open three command centers, one each in Washington, London and Pakistan. The idea is that being in different time zones an office will be open at all times to respond to anti-coalition rhetoric as it's being spread.

And security trucks arrived at the site of the World Trade Center attack today to haul away gold that had been buried in the rubble. The gold belonged to the Bank of Nova Scotia and is worth an estimated $200 million.

That's all the time we have tonight. Please join me again tomorrow, twice at both 5:00 and 7:00 p.m. Eastern. Until then, thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. "CROSSFIRE" begins right now.

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