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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

Can the international coalition hold up?; Is a ground invasion feasible?; Who's winning the intelligence and propaganda war?

Aired November 06, 2001 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: As the bombing escalates, the president vows the U.S. will keep relentless military pressure on bin Laden and the Taliban. But can the coalition hold up? Is a ground invasion feasible? And who's winning the intelligence and propaganda war?

We'll ask Senator Paul Wellstone of the foreign relations committee, Reuel Gerecht, a former CIA officer in the Middle East, and former CIA director James Woolsey, as we head into the war room.

Good evening. Welcome to our viewers in the United States and around the world. I'm Wolf Blitzer reporting tonight from Washington.

There has been an important new development in the U.S. war against terrorism. For the first time, President Bush has raised the possibility that Osama bin Laden is actively seeking to acquire weapons of mass destruction, biological, chemical, and even nuclear.

The president did all this as he spent a good part of the day trying to maintain international support for the U.S. campaign in Afghanistan. Our senior White House correspondent John King is covering the story and joins us now live with details -- John.

JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, as you know, that blunt talk from president today coming on a day where he was focused on coalition building.

Mr. Bush saying bluntly that all allies will be called on and no nation can get away with what the president called "inactivity" on the war on terrorism. And the president, as you noted, also saying that this military campaign will continue, and for the first time he gave voice to something the CIA has said for several years.

Mr. Bush saying it is important to put Osama bin Laden out of business not only because of the September 11 attacks here in the United States, but as you know, because the United States believes his al Qaeda network is trying to acquire chemical, biological and yes, even nuclear weapons.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And that's why we are going to keep relentless military pressure on him in Afghanistan. And that's why we must prevail. That's why we must win.

KING: Targeting frontline Taliban forces is now a major priority, Mr. Bush says harboring terrorists is just one reason Afghanistan needs a new government.

BUSH: Children are forbidden to fly kites or sing songs or build snowmen. A girl of seven is beaten for wearing white shoes. Our enemies have brought only misery and terror to the people of Afghanistan. And now they are trying to export that terror throughout the world.

KING: This speech was via satellite to an anti-terrorism conference in Poland, the tougher talk part of a deliberate strategy shift as the military campaign enters its fifth week.

There have been scattered protests across Europe, where polls show rising skepticism. And some Arab leaders want a pause in the bombing during this month's Muslim holy period of Ramadan.

TONY BLAIR, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: And it's at this point in time that we need to steady people. We need to say, "Look, let's go back and go through the argument again as to why it's happening, why we have to do this, why we have to see it through."

KING: Prime Minister Blair one of a handful of leaders due here at the White House over the next several days. The president also addresses the United Nations on Saturday and tomorrow, Wolf, he will announce what the administration views as significant progress in the financial war against terrorism, the president traveling to the Treasury Department task force leading that effort to announce what the administration believes is a significant new development in identifying the source of the financial support for terrorist groups -- Wolf.

BLITZER: And -- and John, it's almost a month since the start of the -- of the airstrikes, almost two months since the September 11 attacks. Assess how the White House feels it's doing so far?

KING: The White House believes it's doing quite well, but it also acknowledges -- as Prime Minister Blair just did -- that when you have a sustained campaign, from time to time you need to step back and remind people why you got here to begin with -- not only the strikes on New York and at the Pentagon on September 11, but the broader issues against Osama bin Laden and the al Qaeda network.

You heard the president do it today. You will hear him do it again as international leaders visit here at the White House. And on Thursday night will you also hear him give a broad, comprehensive speech looking here at home as well.

He will travel to Atlanta to discuss homeland defense efforts, including the anthrax investigations. The president -- as long as this campaign goes on, the White House realizes the president will have to from time to time step up and communicate the administration's message to maintain support here at home but also overseas as well.

BLITZER: John King at the White House. Thank you very much.

Meanwhile, the United States has put more special forces on the ground inside Afghanistan as winter approaches, and the Pentagon says expected harsh weather might not prove as treacherous a challenge to the war campaign as some fear. CNN's Military Affairs Correspondent Jamie McIntyre is over at the Pentagon. He joins us now with the latest -- Jamie.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, it was another day of heavy bombing of Taliban positions in the north and another day of little progress by the anti-Taliban forces on the ground.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

MCINTYRE; Pinpoint strikes like this one against Taliban troops dug in on the front line are becoming easier for the U.S. because of an influx of special forces spotting targets from the ground.

DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: There is no question that the -- the better targeting information we have, the better effect is on the ground. And the air campaign has been going along quite well.

MCINTYRE: Still some special forces team remain sidelined because of bad weather. Friday, freezing rain forced a U.S. rescue helicopter to crash land in southern Afghanistan, and U.S. warplanes had to destroy it after the crew was rescued. But the Pentagon says the coming snows of winter could turn out to be as much friend as foe.

GENERAL PETER PACE, VICE CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: U.S. forces operate extremely well cold in a cold weather environment, and in fact there are parts of the cold weather environment that are advantageous to the kinds of sensors that we use.

MCINTYRE: Sensors like the thermal imaging systems on the Global Hawk spy drone, and the JSTARS ground-targeting radar plane. In cold weather it's easier to find some hot targets such as a running tank engine or heat escaping from the mouth of a cave.

Pentagon planners say wherever Taliban and al Qaeda forces hide, they will have to have heat. And in some cases, that will make them as obvious as a bonfire at night.

How long will it take to bring down the Taliban and find Osama bin Laden? Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld insists when he recently said months, not years, he wasn't shortening his prediction.

RUMSFELD: I did not suggest one, two or three months. I said months rather than years. That means it could be as long as 23.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

MCINTYRE: And asked whether the United States would ultimately have to put a large force of its own troops on the ground, Rumsfeld said that was among the broad options under consideration. Wolf. BLITZER: Jamie, any more follow-up reaction over at the Pentagon to the article that Seymour Hersh wrote in the "New Yorker" this week, suggesting that October 20 U.S. commando raid inside Afghanistan did not go as well as the Pentagon would have us believe?

MCINTYRE: Well, in response to that, the Pentagon listed -- released today a list of the entire injuries from that raid. And again, they say none of them were inflicted by hostile fire.

They say that of the Rangers who -- Army Rangers who jumped -- dropped out the airplane, about 25 of them sustained minor injuries, the most serious ones being broken bones in -- two soldiers had broken bones in their foot.

And among the Delta Force commandos who were storming Mullah Omar's compound, they say that five of those were injured by the explosives they used to blast their way in, getting some minor flesh wounds. They say the most serious injury there was a broken finger.

So they released that in response to the charge that there had been serious injuries. They say that is not the case. And they insist none of the injuries came from hostile fire -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon. Thank you very much.

And joining me now in the CNN war room to discuss the U.S. military campaign are Senator Paul Wellstone -- he's a Democrat from Minnesota who sits on the foreign relations committee -- Reuel Gerecht, a former CIA case officer and a fellow at the American enterprise institute, and a former CIA director, James Woolsey.

Thank you for joining us. Mr. Director -- Jim Woolsey -- tell me, first of all, your reaction to President Bush's announcement today in effect that the al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden are trying to get these weapons of mass destruction, maybe even nuclear weapons.

JIM WOOLSEY, FORMER CIA DIRECTOR: Well, I think it's rather obvious that they would be trying. These people are sort of a combination of Nazis and people like Torquemada, who ran the Spanish Inquisition.

And they hate us for what we are, not anything we have done, particularly, and they want to kill us as much as possible and as quickly as possible. And so certainly I think they would try to obtain for example, biological weapons, possibly from Iraq or some other state. And I imagine they will work hard to try to get some kind of fissionable material, if they can.

But even non-fissionable -- that is, non-bomb-making nuclear material -- if it's radioactive enough could be used in sort of a dirty weapon with a conventional explosive to spread radiological material around. I'm -- I'm sure they are working hard on all of those things.

BLITZER: Senator Wellstone, that sound pretty frightening if you hear the former CIA director, you hear what the president said today. SENATOR PAUL WELLSTONE, (D) MINNESOTA: Yeah, well, it is ominous. I mean, we -- we had a lot of innocent people in our country that were massacred. We know it's a very serious situation. And I think, you know, it's a morally justifiable goal -- easier said than done -- to try to have a world where terrorists are not free to reign, cannot reign free. And I think, you know, this is yet another example of the kind of thing that we are really worried about.

BLITZER: Reuel, is it realistic to assume they already have these kinds of capabilities?

REUEL GERECHT, AMERICAN ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE: I don't know if you can already assume they do now. I mean, I think it is realistic to assume that why should they be the odd man out? I mean, we know beyond the shadow of a doubt that Iraq and Iran have been after nuclear weaponry for over two decades, and the advantages of having nuclear weaponry are enormous. So I'm sure that bin Laden and his network, al Qaeda, has tried.

BLITZER: You know, the "Weekly Standard" in an editorial in the current issue makes this point, and I want to get all of your reaction to it. And I will start with you, Mr. Woolsey. "The United States needs rapid, impressive and convincing victories in Afghanistan, both to attract opposition elements to the anti-Taliban fight and to maintain support abroad." Those victories haven't yet happened, have they?

WOOLSEY: No. They are working hard on getting some varieties in the north. I would very much like to see some decisive victories as soon as possible. War, often, if you fight it violently and massively right at first and break the enemy's will, it's the best way to do it.

We were delaying things, it looked like there, for a couple of weeks, anyway. But it looks like they've picked up again with -- with some of the bombing. But I would very much like to see some decisive victories. I'm sure the president and the secretary of defense and the other members of the cabinet would too.

BLITZER: You put -- in some of the interviews that I've read over the past few days you have expressed some concern about the fact that some of military activity is not accompanied by enough aggressive humanitarian efforts.

WOOLSEY: Yeah. Well, I mean, first of all, I have supported the use of force, because I think it's one of the options that we have to utilize.

But the predictions are that, you know, there are seven and a half million people in Afghanistan that could starve death. Maybe a million will. Another prediction that's made is that over 100,000 children. And I think that we have to do everything we can to make sure that doesn't happen, and we have to think of some new ways to get the food.

On present course, thinking about what we need to do by January 1 to make sure this catastrophe doesn't happen, we are about 40 percent of where we should be. And you know, the air drops from 40,00 feet -- which received a lot of coverage -- maybe got help to about one-half of one percent.

We are going to have to do come in from the north with humanitarian carters, trucks, we're going to have to do Berlin type of air drops. And we are going to have to get food to people.

BLITZER: But you know some...

WOOLSEY: We are not there yet.

BLITZER: Some people have said, you know, that while that's important for us, right now the top priority is winning this war against terrorism as quickly as possible, not diverting energies to this humanitarian effort.

GERECHT: Well, I think it has to be. I mean, unless you crack the Taliban, you are not going to solve this problem.

And the United States so far has not seriously supported the Northern Alliance with tactical aid. Most of the air power has been from a fairly high altitude. You haven't seen the tactical use of fixed-wing aircraft, nor have you really seen the tactical use of helicopters.

The Northern Alliance is seriously short of armor: T-55 and T-62 tanks. They have only seven helicopters, old Soviet models. It's very difficult to move personnel. So it's not at all surprising that they have had a difficult time to move the necessary manpower to effectively attack the Taliban.

WELLSTONE: One thing is, I mean, I understand what you are saying about the military effort. But I don't think that these are mutually exclusive efforts.

I think we have to put as much attention on the humanitarian assistance for two reasons: number one, who we are. I mean, it's just inconsistent with our values to turn our gaze away from massive starvation of men, women and children.

And second of all, I think part of what is going on here is, if you will, the battle for swing voters in the -- in the broader Islamic, Muslim world. And I think if you have got our use of force juxtaposed with people starving to death this winter, I think it works against our national interest. So I think this has to be a part of our work.

BLITZER: But Senator, a lot of Americans -- I'm sure many of your constituents in Minnesota -- are going to say, "Where is Arab world, the Muslim world to get engaged in this kind of humanitarian effort? Why is it always U.S. money, U.S. efforts to deal with these kinds of humanitarian missions?"

WELLSTONE: Well, I think the Arab world and the Muslim world should be a part of it. But you know what? I think a lot of people in Minnesota and a lot of people in the country say, "Paul, you know, regardless of where they are or where they are not, we should make sure that we get the help to people." I mean, that has got to be part of our effort.

WOOLSEY: The answer in part to a question like that is to point out that much of Arab world and Muslim world has been helping the Taliban, including wealthy individuals from the Gulf states, Saudi Arabia and elsewhere.

And the kindest thing we can do -- I agree with the senator, we ought to try to feed people as we do this -- but the kindest thing we could do would be to destroy the Taliban quickly as possible.

For example, one thing you are going to have to do if you're going to get trucks in there would be to take Mazar-e-Sharif, if you are going to get them in from the north.

Or if you are going to get in from the south there may be other things that you could do if the Pakistanis help. But military victory is the quickest way to make it possible to get humanitarian aid in.

WELLSTONE: But Jim -- far be it from me to argue against military victory. I wish it would happen tomorrow. But it doesn't look like -- it doesn't look necessarily like it will. And if you bank on that and wait for that to happen before you think of new ways to get the food to people, you could see -- you could see literally a million people starve to death. We don't want to see that happen.

WOOLSEY: Airlift is tough, though. You are going to have to bring trucks in...

WELLSTONE: Absolutely. I agree with that.

GERECHT: It's dangerous, too.

WELLSTONE: Well...

WOOLSEY: And that does mean you need victories. You need to take crossroads like Mazar-e-Sharif.

Any victories you have are important. You also can do the humanitarian corridors where you bring it in from the north. And I think that's also something we are going to do now. But right now -- I mean, look. I think the state department knows this, I think the Pentagon knows this. But we are -- we are not where we should be, and I would hate to see this winter come and have a lot of innocent people starving.

GERECHT: I think -- I think the senator is absolutely right. But all I would caution is that humanitarian aid should not be used by the Taliban. It should not be an item of leverage.

And I think it's going to be very difficult to get humanitarian aid in there in the quantity that would you like to see -- which I think is advisable, unless far more progress is made on the ground militarily by the United States. And I emphasize the United States, not just the Northern Alliance. WELLSTONE: The Taliban is a nightmare, and they are doing everything they can to block this. But the truth of the matter is, you are -- you are -- you are talking about 30-35,000 or however many. We are talking about seven and a half million people in Afghanistan.

WOOLSEY: It's really interesting that even in so-called moderate Arab states, such as Egypt, the government-directed newspaper, the lead editorial writer, is giving credence to the view that the United States is poisoning its -- its food aid. There are some really hideous lies being told out there, and not only in places like Iraq and Iran, but in countries such as Egypt and Saudi Arabia.

BLITZER: We are going to pick up...

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: We are going to pick up that intelligence war, the propaganda war. We have to take a quick break. We have lot more to talk about, including this. Does the CIA have what it takes right now to get the job done? Should the agency get more aggressive about recruiting bad guys to fight a dirty war? Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. We are continuing our conversation in the CNN war room tonight with Senator Paul Wellstone, former CIA officer Reuel Gerecht, and former CIA director James Woolsey.

Reuel, you wrote a piece in the "Atlantic Monthly" this past summer before the September 11 attacks. Among other things, you said this.

We'll put it up on our screen. "The CIA probably doesn't have a single truly qualified Arabic-speaking officer of Middle Eastern background who can play a believable Muslim fundamentalist who would volunteer to spend years of his life with bad food and no women in the mountains of Afghanistan. Most case officers live -- live in the suburbs of Virginia." That's pretty harsh words on your former colleagues inside the CIA.

GERECHT: Maryland too.

BLITZER: Why is -- if that's true, that is a shocking indictment of the U.S. intelligence service.

GERECHT: Well, I suppose it is a shocking indictment, but I mean it shouldn't be surprising.

I mean, bureaucracies are -- are captive of their history. And the agency for over 50 years built a -- a service that was largely designed to operate in Western environments, was largely designed to operate out of official facilities, usually diplomatic cover. Obviously, irrespective of whether it worked during the Cold War, it should be obvious that it doesn't work against Islamic radicals.

BLITZER: Is that all true? You were the director of the CIA. Is it true that the CIA is lacking these capabilities?

WOOLSEY: A lot of the shift to focus on targets -- post-Cold War targets -- has taken a lot more time than it should have. One of the things I think all directors have done is request funds on this.

I had three committee chairmen -- oversight committee chairmen who were wonderful on this issue when I was director, and one who blocked every increase for things like new language instruction and the rest.

You really have to have everybody with you or you can't get some of these things done.

BLITZER: With that kind of indictment, is it -- are you surprised the U.S. is having a tough time making a go of it in Afghanistan, and was so surprised by the September 11 attack?

WELLSTONE: Well, yeah. I was surprised that we were so surprised by that attack. I think most people in the country feel that way. But I tell you, in the Senate, I mean, all of discussion right now -- and I think this is what Reuel was saying, or part of what he was saying -- is we have got to have people out there on the ground who know the language, who can get the intelligence, who -- and it isn't going to work with people trying to do it from offices wherever. And I mean, I think we -- I think we have learned that lesson. I'm sorry we had to learn the lesson.

BLITZER: One of the e-mailers -- we has asked our viewers to send questions for all of you. A.D. writes from Lincoln, Nebraska. "If we decide that we have to root out the Taliban and al Qaeda hill by hill, cave by cave, and hold territory for the time it takes to win this war, wouldn't that require hundreds of thousands of troops on the ground? Jim Woolsey?

WOOLSEY: Well, if we try to do it that way, yes. Obviously, what one wants to try to do is to have Afghan allies who can do much of the fighting and for to us supply the air power and also some ground forces to execute some really decisive strikes and take cities and so forth.

But we don't want make the mistake that the Soviets did of trying to occupy the whole country. That would -- that would take hundreds of thousands of troops. We shouldn't try to do that. I think we can win without it.

WELLSTONE: Can I ask you something, Jim?

WOOLSEY: Go ahead.

WELLSTONE: Do you think that the reliance on the airstrikes on the Northern Alliance with use of commandos -- are you confident that in fact we can succeed? Because I think the thought of our not succeeding in terms of what the world would then look like is horrible thought, and then the alternative, of course, that has been raised here is on the ground, do you think we can... BLITZER: Let's ask Reuel first. Is it a foregone conclusion that the U.S. is going to win this war against al Qaeda in Afghanistan?

GERECHT: Well, I think if you are American, you have to be optimistic. I would say yes. However, I think the present tactics that are being used are insufficient. And I think the United States is going to have to get involved seriously on the ground.

And even if you assume best case scenario with what happens in the north and the Northern Alliance -- that is reversal to the lines that you had in '95 and '96 -- that still leaves the Pashtun regions more or less unaffected.

And the only way you are going to seriously affect the Pashtun support, I think, of the Taliban -- unless you let lucky and what happens in the north fractures Taliban power -- is to go for Kandahar. Because that is the primary division amongst all Pashtuns. You are Kandahari or you are not Kandahari.

They are -- the Northern Alliance isn't going to go down there. The only people who are going to go down are going to the American military. The sooner we do that, the better.

BLITZER: We have leave it right there. Reuel Gerecht, who once was -- or maybe several times -- in Afghanistan. Former CIA case officer. Jim Woolsey, who headed the CIA, and Senator Wellstone, always good to have you on our show.

WELLSTONE: Thank you, Wolf.

BLITZER: Thank you. And for our viewers in North America, "CROSSFIRE" comes your way at the bottom of the hour. Tucker Carlson joins us now live with a preview.

TUCKER CARLSON, HOST, "CROSSFIRE:" Wolf, Northern Alliance commanders are claiming significant victory tonight: two captured towns and more than 400 Taliban defecters.

The Northern Alliance's next goal: on to Kabul and then control of the entire country. They may succeed, but what will happen if they do? Is the Northern Alliance ready to govern? Is it even pro- American? We will ask the Northern Alliance's chief spokesman next on "CROSSFIRE." Wolf?

BLITZER: Tucker, we will be watching. Thanks. And when we come back, we'll have the latest developments.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back.

Here's a quick check of the latest developments. President Bush is pledging to do everything possible to keep weapons of mass destruction out of the reach of Osama bin Laden. Mr. Bush, who spent part of the day with the French President Jacques Chirac, is urging Americans to take bin Laden's threats of using such weapons very seriously.

And the FAA says it will hire 225 temporary workers to help oversee security screenings at the nation's airports. There are currently some 500 people supervising inspections at 420 U.S. airports.

This programming note: It's another "LARRY KING LIVE" exclusive. Larry's guest will be British Prime Minister Tony Blair. Be sure to tune in for that interview tonight at 9:00 Eastern.

And that's all the time we have tonight. Please join me again tomorrow twice, at both 5:00 and 7:00 p.m. Eastern. Until then, thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. "CROSSFIRE" begins right now.

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