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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

War Room: The Battle for Mazar-e Sharif

Aired November 09, 2001 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS: "The War Room." Is the tide beginning to turn in Afghanistan? Northern Alliance fighters claim victory over the Taliban in the key city of Mazar-e Sharif. No confirmation yet, but the Pentagon is encouraged.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Strategically, humanitarian, militarily, it's important for those reasons.

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BLITZER: We'll go live to northern Afghanistan and to the Pentagon for what may be ahead in the bombing campaign.

As rebel fighters dig in, would an early victory on the ground alter the course of the U.S.-led war? We'll get insight from the Northern Alliance representative Haron Amin, from Ken Adelman of the Pentagon's defense policy board, and from former State Department official Phyllis Oakley, as we head into "The War Room."

Good evening. I'm Wolf Blitzer, reporting tonight from Washington.

Sunday will mark the end of week five of the U.S.-led air strikes against targets in Afghanistan. Today, those strikes appear to be paying off with a potentially significant breakthrough. The Northern Alliance says it's taken the strategically important town of Mazar-e Sharif from Taliban control. U.S. officials tell CNN that's an overstatement, but they say it's still likely the city will fall to the rebels.

For the latest, let's go the Pentagon and our CNN military affairs correspondent Jamie McIntyre -- Jamie.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, U.S. officials tell CNN that, in fact, opposition forces from the Northern Alliance are in Mazar-e Sharif, and that there is still some fighting in the street, but at this hour it does appear that the rebels are about to win control of the strategic city.

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MCINTYRE (voice-over): With only incomplete battle reports coming from Mazar-e Sharif, the Pentagon is not yet ready to declare the strategic northern crossroads under the control of the U.S.-backed rebels.

VICTORIA CLARKE, PENTAGON SPOKESWOMAN: The situation on the ground is fluid. Until things settle, and we see where forces are after a day or two, our inclination is to withhold comment. What we have seen is encouraging.

MCINTYRE: After 34 days and more than 8,000 bombs, U.S. intelligence reports say the air assault has taken a toll on the Taliban. As casualties climb, some Taliban forces are retreating, and others are defecting to the opposition. In some cases, entire small units have changed sides, said U.S. officials. But the Pentagon remains concerned the Taliban could counterattack.

REAR ADM. JOHN STUFFLEBEEM, PENTAGON SPOKESMAN: We don't know enough yet to know what's been taken, will it be held, and then, therefore, will there be more movement from them.

MCINTYRE: While the U.S. bombs cave complexes like this one near Herat in western Afghanistan, more than half of its strikes are now aimed at supporting the rebel advance in the north, with U.S. jets trying to keep Taliban forces on the run.

If the anti-Taliban rebels do hold Mazar-e Sharif, the U.S. could fly in food and military aid rather than drop it from the air, and even more relief supplies could be trucked in overland from Uzbekistan. But sources say the Pentagon currently has no plans to base combat aircraft, either fighter jets or helicopter gunships, on Afghan soil. Instead, the Pentagon hopes to use land bases in neighboring Tajikistan to step up the pace of the bombing and cut reaction time, as it continues to provide air cover to the Northern Alliance.

And it's making plans to move a second group of amphibious assault ships to waters off Pakistan. That would bring to more than 4,000 the number of U.S. Marines that would be ready to go ashore if ordered.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE: Now, the fall of Mazar-e Sharif, if it happens, would be both a military and psychological victory for the United States, which so far has been unable to point to any real progress on the ground after more than a month of bombing -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Jamie, what are you hearing about possible Taliban defections to the Northern Alliance with this apparent breakthrough in Mazar-e Sharif?

MCINTYRE: Well, two things. We've heard reports that there are larger numbers of defections, as some of the Taliban shift allegiance to the opposition forces, and tonight we also got a report from a U.S. official that the U.S. has heard that two Taliban commanders have turned on each other, and that they are in the process of fighting each other, and in that process also, quote, "committing atrocities in the city." However, the U.S. official could provide no confirmation of that and no evidence that that was the case; simply that they had a report, as he said, from the scene that that was what was going on in Mazar-e Sharif at this moment -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Jamie McIntyre, thank you very much, over at the Pentagon.

I'm joined now in the CNN "War Room" by Haron Amin. He's the special representative for the Northern Alliance here in Washington; Ken Adelman, he's the former director of the U.S. Arms Control and Disarmament Agency; and Phyllis Oakley, she's the former assistant secretary of state. Thanks to all of you for joining us.

And Haron, let me begin with you. What is the latest? What are you hearing from your colleagues in the Northern Alliance?

HARON AMIN, NORTHERN ALLIANCE REPRESENTATIVE: I had the opportunity to speak to the deputy defense minister to confirm that Mazar was securely in our hands. There had been certain skirmishes as the Taliban retreating to the east of the city, toward Samangan and possibly heading over to Pandoz (ph) as well as maybe north of Kabul to strengthen their positions, but the city has -- is in confirmed control of us, and the ministry of defense is looking into the security as well as the military aspects of the long-term control of the city, making sure that the Taliban would not stage a counter- offensive.

BLITZER: Well, let me go to my map, Haron, just for a minute, and show our viewers what is happening right now on the ground in Mazar-e Sharif. As you know -- and you can look over here on the monitor -- in the past few days, the Northern Alliance has moved forward. They took this town, this little village south of Mazar-e Sharif on Wednesday, then they moved up this road, took this little village over here yesterday, which was Thursday, moving today into Mazar-e Sharif, which is right over here, two small little air fields right outside of this city.

And as far as you're telling us right now, right inside of Mazar- e Sharif, the complete city is under the control of the Northern Alliance?

AMIN: Yes, indeed it is. That's the latest confirmation I had today. I remember that the attack on Mazar-e Sharif had been placed from both southeast as well as southwest, and today, early this morning Washington time but late day in Afghanistan, that securing Mazar-e Sharif was all but in the making, and that now it is confirmed in our control.

BLITZER: Phyllis Oakley, you've studied this region for many years. You've lived over there. There have been some human rights activists who are already expressing some concern that if the Northern Alliance goes into a town like Mazar-e Sharif, old scores could be settled, there could be some human rights violations, massacres, if you will. How concerned should the U.S. be right now, because, of course, it's allied with the Northern Alliance? PHYLLIS OAKLEY, FORMER ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE: I think that's always a concern, but I think this is really the area that's been closely allied with the Northern Alliance for a long time. They're really, in a way, going home, because it's only been very recently that Mazar-e Sharif fell to the Taliban.

I think in any wartime situation, of course we are concerned about the human rights situation, but I wouldn't put that at the top of my list right now.

KEN ADELMAN, FORMER U.S. ARMS CONTROL DIRECTOR: And you have to say, compared to what?

OAKLEY: Yeah.

ADELMAN: I mean, the Taliban -- it's hard to imagine any group worse than the Taliban. So I would hope that the Northern Alliance -- and we would, you know, work with the Northern Alliance to make sure that those kinds of human rights violations don't reoccur, or don't occur when they take power. But the fact is that it's hard to imagine a group that would prohibit all women from ever going to any school at any time.

BLITZER: Let me ask Haron Amin, let's talk about that for one second. The suggestion in the past, there have been wide reports that over the years the Northern Alliance did commit some atrocities. So how concerned should the outside world be?

AMIN: If you look at the records from '92 all the way to 1998 before -- 1997, when the Taliban for the first time took over Mazar-e Sharif, there had been none of these cases that the people are talking about. In 1997, the Taliban took the city, and then they ended up killing thousands of people. In 1998, again, you're talking about killing of even including 12 Iranian diplomats in that city.

Certain acts on an indiscriminate basis by local population should not implicate that this is the policy of the United Front, certainly. But in the future, now that Afghanistan is being internationalized, I think with the help of the international community, we can look into all issues, including those human rights issues.

BLITZER: All right. We have an e-mail, I want to ask you, Ken, to respond. Bob from British Columbia wrote us this question: "Will the U.S. forces try to use Mazar-e Sharif as a major military base?"

Before you answer that question, I want to go back to the map. We have a map of the region, which, of course, shows Mazar-e Sharif right over here and the Northern Alliance has been in control for most of that area over there. But what do you think?

ADELMAN: I don't know that much about the facilities right there. I think that the trouble is -- and I think it's wonderful that obviously the Northern Alliance has taken the town and moved -- but the trouble is that if we are going to have a global war against terrorism, it's very hard for the United States of America, the number one power in the world, to wage a global war of terrorism by city by city in Afghanistan. I just think it's too specific, it's too surgical approach, and I have thought myself that it should be a much wider approach, including Sudan, areas in Sudan, areas in Lebanon, terrorist camps...

BLITZER: Clearly, the Bush administration wants to wait on that.

ADELMAN: Very wide, not tied specifically to town by town to Afghanistan.

OAKLEY: On the other hand, it is significant. It's the first major step that the Northern Alliance has taken. You look at the geography, it opens the way to Herat to the west.

The Russians had built a ring road, basically, about that -- around that big mountainous area in the middle of Afghanistan. If I were a military planner, I would be thinking about a little encirclement. Mazar-e Sharif...

BLITZER: Well, let me ask you this question, and our Ben Wedeman is standing by not very far away. But I want you to answer this question, Phyllis, and it's a question that Pat from Ventura, California asks us: "What is the next target city or Taliban stronghold the U.S. and Northern Alliance forces would go after?" We take a look over here, Mazar-e Sharif. Would it be Herat over here to the west? Would they go down south in Kandahar, which is of course the stronghold of the Taliban? Would they move on Kabul, the capital, Jalalabad up here in the northeastern part of Afghanistan? What do you anticipate?

OAKLEY: My hunch is -- and I'm not in on the military planning -- that they will move to areas like Herat, hoping perhaps from the Southern Alliance and some of the Pashtun tribes there to come up. Kabul, in my view, would be difficult right now. I think they're going to do a little more encircling, cut Taliban forces off from their main source, their base.

BLITZER: Haron...

AMIN: The objective would be -- remember that if one were to effectively take Northern Afghanistan and get rid of the Taliban in these northern territories, that certainly that would destroy or reduce Taliban strength to about 50 percent, which means that it's going to create defection rates among the Taliban, certainly be a major blow to the Taliban entity, al Qaeda, who might actually search their sanctuary, which it is the case, in the southern parts of Afghanistan.

But that would reduce their force, but certainly Herat is among those areas, as well as Kabul, or maybe investing in Kabul, but certainly not going in.

BLITZER: I want to just inform everyone that our reporter Ben Wedeman is standing by. He's in northern Afghanistan. Earlier today here on CNN, he broke this news about this potential breakthrough, the takeover of Mazar-e Sharif. Ben, what are you hearing right now? What is the very latest?

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Basically, what we're hearing are continued claims by the Northern Alliance and General Rashid Dostum about the taking of Mazar-e Sharif earlier, rather yesterday our time. Basically, however, there are still no confirmed reports coming out of that area. It's, in fact, 4 o'clock in the morning here, so there's really not much in the way of fresh information since what we heard late last night.

But obviously, Northern Alliance officials are taking a great deal of confidence from the fact or from the reports that Mazar-e Sharif has been taken. This is certainly the first major advance by the Northern Alliance since the 11th of September. And they're also saying that the U.S. bombing of the area, the intense bombing that preceded the taking or the retaking of Mazar-e Sharif played a critical role in the -- in the action that took place in that city yesterday -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Ben, it seems like it happened relatively quickly, and certainly came as somewhat of a surprise that the Northern Alliance was able to take Mazar-e Sharif today. And you heard Jamie McIntyre, our Pentagon correspondent, basically confirming, U.S. officials saying it looks like it's a done deal. Was this a surprise?

WEDEMAN: It was a surprise, because until very recently what Northern Alliance officials, including top military commanders, were saying that it would be very difficult to make a rapid advance from the south on to Mazar-e Sharif because of mountain ranges south of the city that were very heavily fortified by the Taliban. And therefore, the speed with which the town was taken would indicate that there could have been some sort of deal, some sort of defection of top commanders or a large number of Taliban troops to the Northern Alliance side.

Certainly, it really did take place, if it took place precisely as we understand it, within just a matter of hours. Mazar-e Sharif is not a small town, like the one we're in now, for instance. Under normal times of 200,000 people. So it would spread over a rather large area. And certainly from a military point of view, trying to retake a city of that size would take some time. But it appears that it was quite a rapid advance, and yes, it did in general take most people here by complete surprise -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Ben Wedeman getting up early in the morning in Northern Afghanistan, thank you very much for your excellent reporting.

And let me go back to Haron Amin...

ADELMAN: Can I make a comment here, Wolf, for a minute?

BLITZER: Sure.

ADELMAN: I'm surprised that you're saying you're surprised how quickly it's gone. Don't forget, we've had four weeks, almost five weeks of bombing here, an enormous amount of bombing, and you know, an enormous amount of assistance. I guess...

BLITZER: So what you're saying...

(CROSSTALK)

ADELMAN: I've been surprised that it hasn't happened sooner. I mean, I welcome it. I think it's wonderful right now. But it seemed that the premise was at the beginning that there was going to be a stunning effect of especially American bombing there. There were going to be more defections than we've seen. There was going to be stronger assaults by the Northern Alliance. And you know, here we are almost five weeks later. So I'm surprised that it's surprisingly slow.

BLITZER: Haron Amin, as far as you know -- and you're in daily, hourly perhaps contact with your colleagues in the Northern Alliance, when the Northern Alliance troops went into Mazar-e Sharif today, were they accompanied by U.S. special forces, U.S. troops?

AMIN: The use -- the international community's experts, military experts were involved in the planning of the strategy. And certainly one thing that we had asked all long was the close coordination in the context of the air campaign. And certainly that air raids have compensated for our lack of heavy artillery. So, that paved the way for us to be able to make the move, because once you get beyond Sholgara, then you've got plain lands, the airport, then into the city. That certainly paved the way for us to be able to make the move on the ground.

BLITZER: So U.S., British, other forces are on the ground with your forces in Mazar-e Sharif?

AMIN: In the context of coordination, yes.

OAKLEY: Let me tell you a concern that I have. I think we all agree that the situation in Afghanistan is complicated. I'm a little concerned now that the military side is getting way out ahead of the political side, because in the end this is going to be as important politically as militarily.

BLITZER: What does that mean specifically?

OAKLEY: Well, I think if we can encourage now other people to defect, but if it gives heart to some of the tribes in the south -- the Pashtuns themselves, some more of the Hazara, the Baluch, some of the other ethnic groups within Afghanistan -- to take heart that there is military progress, that then we can get that critical mass together that we need politically to develop a transition government.

AMIN: I think that is in the making, that is in the marking, because you've got the Rome process. You've got the people around the king as well as the United Front who are going (UNINTELLIGIBLE), convening up the Loya Jerga soon. And I think that this somehow requires additional attention to this whole political process, and hopefully with the appropriate attention being rendered to this whole political process, both by the international coalition as well as the United Nations, I think that's going to set the stage for -- for this taking place.

BLITZER: All right, we're going to take a quick break. We have a lot more to talk about. Ken Adelman is dying to get back into this conversation. He will.

But if the United States continues bombing, will the Muslim world ignite? We'll discuss that and more in our CNN WAR ROOM. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back to our CNN "War Room." Ken Adelman, Tom Friedman writing in the "New York Times" today said this: "The Pashtun-led Taliban will not break easily, because they think they're fighting for the survival of their tribe in Afghanistan, not for the survival of bin Laden."

That sounds like it sets the stage for a pretty serious enemy in this.

ADELMAN: Well, it has been a serious enemy, and that's what I was saying before. It has been far more substantial and the defections have been far fewer than we expected on that.

BLITZER: Phyllis Oakley, you've studied this region for many years, served over there. A poll in CNN "TIME magazine," a poll asked the American public: "Should the U.S. halt bombing action during the Muslim holy month of Ramadan, which begins November 17?" -- 82 percent said no, only 11 percent said yes. What do you think?

OAKLEY: I would agree with that. On the other hand, I do think we have to calibrate our response so that we display a recognition of the importance of Ramadan. The feast is broken in the evening, right after dark. I wouldn't bomb then. It's hard, and I would certainly stop bombing for the eve that ends Ramadan, but I don't necessarily think we have to stop during Ramadan.

ADELMAN: Wasn't the Iran/Iraq war fought at evening?

OAKLEY: Yes.

ADELMAN: And during the most holy time?

OAKLEY: Right.

ADELMAN: And these were two Muslim countries.

OAKLEY: Yeah.

ADELMAN: And so, why should we be more Muslim than the Muslims?

BLITZER: Haron, you're from that part of the world, is this a big deal, the Muslim holy month of Ramadan, as far as the U.S. and Britain and others engaging in air strikes?

AMIN: Well, remember, the Taliban have made no exception of violating the sanctity of the holy month of Ramadan every year. In 1998, they forcibly displaced in the middle of the winter as many as 150,000 people from Northern Shamali plains.

I think we have taken the prerogative and that we have every responsibility making sure that the country is getting liberated. And at the same time, that we should defend our people against the Taliban and what they've done against our people.

BLITZER: And remind me, why is the Northern Alliance not moving directly on Kabul, the capital?

AMIN: See, the idea is that we have always asked -- remember what happened in 1992? We asked the international committee to put a political road map in place. The United Nations was really lagging behind, and I think that's still the case today. So, we took the initiative in our own hands, and wanted a political road map to be clear in terms of convening up the Loya Jerga, setting up the transitional government so that then -- and (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Kabul, we can go about doing and realizing that.

OAKLEY: Wait a minute, that's putting a little too much blame on the U.N., that they didn't provide the road map. You have to admit how difficult it is to get Afghans to get together to form a new government.

AMIN: But out of a semi-military organizations that we had in Pakistan, all but one, backed by the military intelligence of Pakistan, reigned rockets into the city, but the rest were there.

BLITZER: Ken Adelman, you got the last word.

ADELMAN: Yes, that is the point, Phyllis, that it's so different to cobble these groups together. I would leave all the cobbling until after the war is won.

OAKLEY: Is this a pun?

ADELMAN: No, no, I would leave all -- it may be a pun, but it's also a point. And the point is, I would leave all the cobbling until after the war is won and the Taliban is over. Otherwise, they're going to rip each other apart.

BLITZER: Cobbling in Kabul.

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: On that note, disagreement, we're going to leave it. Thanks for a good discussion.

And up next, an update on the battle for the key Afghan city. We'll have that and other late developments coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. Here are the latest developments we are following right now. U.S. officials tell CNN the Northern Alliance forces appear to be getting very close to taking control of the strategic city of Mazar-e Sharif. They say some Taliban forces are fleeing the area still. They call the situation at this moment, quote, "very fluid."

President Bush today announced he's boosting the number of National Guard troops at airports, from 7,000 to more than 9,000. The increase will last through the holidays.

And four more postal facilities in New Jersey have tested positive for the presence of anthrax. Authorities suspect cross- contamination with other sites.

That's all the time we have tonight. Please join me Sunday for a special "LATE EDITION." Among my guests, the national security adviser to the president, Condoleezza Rice. That's Sunday at noon Eastern.

Until then, thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. "CROSSFIRE" begins right now.

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