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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

Taliban Flees From Afghan Cities; Is There Any Way to Fill Afghanistan's Power Vacuum?

Aired November 14, 2001 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS: THE WAR ROOM. Anti-Taliban forces send their foes fleeing throughout Afghanistan, but the Bush administration says there is much unfinished business.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Our task is to find the al Qaeda and Taliban leadership, and we still have that ahead of us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: We'll go live to CNN's Christiane Amanpour in Kabul, Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon and John King at the Western White House.

Will the Taliban now fight from the mountains? Is there any way to fill Afghanistan's power vacuum?

We'll look at strategy, tactics and diplomacy, as we go into THE WAR ROOM.

BLITZER: Good evening, I'm Wolf Blitzer reporting tonight from Washington.

The face of Afghanistan is changing very rapidly. Tonight, reports the Taliban are losing more cities to rebel forces. There are also widespread indications of Taliban defections. Still, the hunt for Osama bin Laden continues, as do the U.S. airstrikes.

And at this moment we are following a late-breaking development, a sign of the Taliban's collapse. The eight Western aide workers, including two Americans -- Heather Mercer and Dana Currie who had been held in Kabul on charges of trying to convert Muslims to Christianity are now free.

Administration officials say they were taken out of country and flown to Pakistan by U.S. military helicopters. We are standing by for a news conference from some family members. When that happens we hope to bring it to you live.

But let's go first to the Afghan capital of Kabul. That's where we find Christiane Amanpour. She joins us now live with late developments -- Christiane.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, the situation certainly very different all over this country. Here in Kabul, a sense of relief, a sense of calm after the second day of this city being liberated from the Taliban. People here out on the street, a lot of shops were opened again. A lot of people in the market. There were little signs that life has truly changed here in Kabul after five years of Taliban rule.

Many people expressing simple joy being able to play music cassettes in their cars, music in a hotel lobby. Also, women venturing out, wondering whether now after five years of being banned from every walk of public life including coming out of homes unaccompanied, that life, they hope, will change for them. At the meantime Northern Alliance has moved to consolidate its control over this city. As I say, things are calm and under control. Northern Alliance police and military around various parts of this city, and they have said that they have taken over control of the defense and police ministries. This, they say, an interim measure until finally a U.N. political settlement can be found.

Now not so orderly and not so calm in other parts of Afghanistan south of here. In Kandahar we can not confirm reports that the airport there has fallen, but what certainly is going on is some kind of a battle between Anti-Taliban and Taliban forces. anti-Taliban forces, perhaps Pashtun tribal leaders were seen in trucks carrying guns throughout the day there in Kandahar. And on the other hand, there were also those in Kandahar shouting support for Mullah Omar, the Taliban's reclusive leader. There are reports both Mullah Omar and Osama bin Laden are on the run, but again this is not confirmed independently and not confirmed by us.

Over to the east of Kandahar in Jalalabad, again unconfirmed reports that perhaps this city too has fall to anti-Taliban forces. Again, these forces not the Northern Alliance, but perhaps a group of tribal leaders -- you know one of the big aims of the international alliance was to try to get tribal leaders to rise up in various places around Afghanistan. Certainly we have heard the Northern Alliance have tried to negotiate with tribal leaders, to try to form some kind of political settlement and agreement for Jalalabad and other parts of country, but that hasn't happened yet -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Christiane, how desperate are people in Kabul, where you are, for food and other humanitarian supplies?

AMANPOUR: Well, although the humanitarian situation in this country is no doubt serious, it did not develop into the full-scale crisis that the worst case scenario had predicted. There was not the refugee influx into -- out of Afghanistan during this war and throughout the war there have been truck loads of humanitarian aid and regular trade going in from Pakistan to the capital Kabul and to other cities. So, although, it's not perfect, it's not as dire as it could have been.

BLITZER: Christiane Amanpour in Kabul, thank you very much. And the rapidly changing situation on the ground in Afghanistan is forcing an equally rapid change of plans here in Washington, especially over at the Pentagon.

CNN military affairs correspondent Jamie McIntyre is at the Pentagon. He joins us now live with the latest -- Jamie.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, the rapid demise of the Taliban, the collapse of the Taliban leadership has prompted the Pentagon to do a shift in its tactics away from a conventional attack against standard military targets, more to a mission to hunt down bin Laden and the al Qaeda network. And Pentagon officials say that could be a more difficult mission.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): U.S. Navy planes continue to bomb retreating Taliban forces as they flee their last southern strongholds. The pinpoint targeting made possible by what the Pentagon calls interdiction by a handful of U.S. special forces operating amid the confusion.

RUMSFELD: They have been interdicting the main roads that connect the north from the south to see what's going on, and to stop people that they think ought to be stopped.

MCINTYRE: But Pentagon sources says some Navy jets are returning to their carriers without dropping their bombs, a sign the Taliban are increasingly hard to find.

REAR ADM. JOHN STUFFLEBEEM, PENTAGON SPOKESMAN: It's difficult in the southern part of Afghanistan, west of Kandahar, to be able to positively identify what may be southern Pashtun tribes versus. Taliban troops that may be on the move.

MCINTYRE: Pentagon officials say many Taliban are moving to remote areas, southwest of Kandahar, and may be melting back into their home towns. Others are fleeing into Pakistan, and still others are holed up in mountain hideaways.

STUFFLEBEEM: It's not clear exactly why they may be doing that, it may be that they are regrouping, it may be that they are abandoning and retreating.

MCINTYRE: Pentagon sources say the United States is anxious to have its allies provide humanitarian relief, so it can use all of its military resources, including reconnaissance planes and satellites in the hunt for al Qaeda forces. Despite the battlefield victories, the Pentagon is under no illusions it will be easy to find Osama bin Laden.

RUMSFELD: Finding handfuls of people is indeed like finding needles in a haystack,

MCINTYRE: Sources say the Pentagon is also re-evaluating its plans to base combat planes in Tajikistan. After an assessment team reported that only one of three airfields is suitable, and even that one needs a lot of repair.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE: And as a signal to Saddam Hussein, the United States is sending 2,000 U.S. Army troops from Port Hood, Texas, to a regularly scheduled exercise in Kuwait. But that is double the number of troops that would normally attend that exercise, Pentagon officials say the signal to Iraq is that even though the U.S. is busy in Afghanistan, Iraq has not fallen off the radar screen -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Jamie, the head of the Central Command, General Tommy Franks, is coming to Washington tomorrow, as you know, what's all that about?

Well, as you know, the United States has a lot of offers from its allies to help out, some have even volunteered combat troops. Franks is putting together a plan to make use of those troops, as I said earlier, mostly to assist in the humanitarian aid aspect. And he may also be presenting his thinking about the introduction of U.S. ground troops as this military campaign moves into a new phase.

BLITZER: Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon, thank you very much.

The Bush administration is encouraged by the rapid retreat of the Taliban. But catching Osama bin Laden is still goal No. 1.

CNN's senior White House correspondent John King joins us now live from Crawford, Texas. Where Mr. Bush is hosting Russia's President Vladimir Putin at his ranch -- John.

JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, a dinner tonight in honor of the Russian president, Mr. Putin, who arrived at the Bush ranch here in Crawford this afternoon.

Casual dress, a very informal atmosphere, Mr. Putin and his wife arriving on one of the president's marine helicopters at the ranch. You see the two families there, the two couples -- the Bushes and the Putins. Then into this white pickup truck the president gets to drive one place, on his ranch here in Crawford, Texas. He took the Putins for a short drive, said he would enjoy that.

Urgent discussion, though, as Jamie was just discussing, a change in the military strategy because of the fast changing developments on the ground in Afghanistan. President Putin vowing today that the international coalition would pursue the terrorists into the mountains, was the way he put it. President Bush promising to do so as well.

One concern the administration has is if the Taliban falls in the days ahead, that many will think that means the military campaign should come to an end. So in Washington today, the vice president in a speech largely dedicated to economic issues, took time at the top to make clear that in many ways this campaign was still in its very early stages.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT: The al Qaeda network is a global network, they've got cells all over the world. And there's no reason for us to believe at this stage that this operation is about to end. Far more appropriate way to look at it is this is a very good beginning of what's likely to be a long struggle.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: And the administration closely coordinating with the British prime minister, Tony Blair, in this new military strategy and the new communication strategy. Prime Minister Blair today, urging those in the south of Afghanistan to rise up against the Taliban as well, wishing for the end to the Taliban regime as soon as possible. But he, like Vice President Cheney and like other U.S. officials here in the United States, making clear that the prime target of this operation remains Osama bin Laden.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TONY BLAIR, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: They are terrorists and history will judge them as such.

Before the history books are written, however, we will continue to hunt them down. And we will continue to do so for as long as takes to bring them to the justice they deserve.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: The U.S. Missile Defense Program, continuing differences over whether to amend or set aside the 1972 Antiballistic Missile Treaty, the subject of President Bush's discussions with President Putin. But because of the fast-changing situation in Afghanistan, the urgency of adjusting the military strategy, U.S. officials say, those discussions will dominate two days of talks here at the Bush ranch here in Crawford, Texas -- Wolf.

BLITZER: John King, thank you very much.

And with the Bush administration cautioning that a long road still lies ahead, what's next in Afghanistan and in the war on terrorism?

Joining me now here in the CNN WAR ROOM, Edward Luttwak, defense and strategy expert at the Center for Strategic and International Studies; retired Marine Corps General Richard Neal, he was the central command operations deputy during the Persian Gulf War; and former Pakistani diplomat Malik Zahoor Ahmad. And you can take part in the WAR ROOM by e-mailing us your questions to wolf@CNN.com.

Let me begin with you, General Neal, of this strategy that the Pentagon had, the air strikes now that the national -- the Northern Alliance seems to have the Taliban on the run.

Let's show our viewers a map, what the latest situation appears to be on the ground right now. All these areas in red above here, areas that now appear to be strongly under the control of the Northern Alliance including Jalalabad up here in the northern part of Afghanistan, the capital Kabul, Herat all way in the west. All of these areas, almost more than half of the country. Kandahar still presumably up in the air, the strategic stronghold of the Taliban. Is it all but over?

RETIRED GENERAL RICHARD NEAL, U.S. MARINE CORPS: I don't think so. I think we'd be premature to start claiming victory all over.

I think what's happened is, obviously, the air campaign set the conditions for the Northern Alliance to be successful in their southward movement. They drove either through fighting or they just moved very quickly and abandoned their different positions in a rapid pace and moved south.

Now they are in Kandahar, although most of the reports say that they are leaving there, going out towards the west or to the southeast, where they can probably blend back in to the known areas that they came from, and hopefully, will avoid direct confrontation with not so much the Northern Alliance as with the air strikes from the U.S. aircraft.

BLITZER: What should -- Edward, you have studied military history for many years. What should the U.S. military be doing in a situation like this?

EDWARD LUTTWAK, SENIOR FELLOW, CSIS: Well, just going on doing what they have been doing so far which they have done pretty well. I mean, we have seen a whole inventory of special forces doing their thing. I mean, the special forces themselves, with these little teams which have joined these bands, large and small, provided them with logistics from the back and air coordination from the front, really made them work. That's been the key to the success.

We have the Delta people waiting in case somebody knows where Osama is. We will have the Rangers, kind of commander strike. These are useful capabilities which have been used to make the air power really effective. This will continue until the entire territory is clear of the Taliban. That does not mean, of course, that we will find Osama bin Laden. I mean, he could be dead in a cave or could have escaped or disappeared. The only reason there's any chance he might be found is that he's so extraordinary tall.

(LAUGHTER)

He can't hide, otherwise he could show up as one of these security people employed by one of these companies at the U.S. airport.

BLITZER: Malik, you are a former Pakistani diplomat. The government of President Pervez Musharraf is not happy with the move of the Northern Alliance into Kabul to take over such a big chunk of the country. You don't think this is good news though?

MALIK ZAHOOR AHMAD, FORMER PAKISTANI DIPLOMAT: Yes, this is not good news. And the reason is that, you know, General Musharraf did a wonderful job by joining the coalition. And he has crossed the Rubicon. He just can not go back.

Now this situation sends wrong signals because there is a feeling in Pakistan, there is kind of a sense of betrayal in Pakistan, people feel that the Northern Alliance was allowed to enter Kabul with a wink and nod from Washington.

BLITZER: But if there was a vacuum, that the Taliban forces fled Kabul, somebody had to go in and take charge. I mean, there was nobody else there.

AHMAD: That is the logical thing and this is our logic. But the point is that ordinary people, or those who are supportive of Taliban regime and those who are opposed to Musharraf's decision, the instinct of them -- and they might feel that -- you know, America is probably -- America and Pakistan would be singing different songs very soon.

BLITZER: The Bush administration signaled its support. As you know, President Bush promised a billion dollars in aid.

But let me bring General Neal in. And we have a viewer who asked us this question in e-mail. We just got it. Let me read it to you: Now that the Taliban is quickly being removed from strategic position in Afghanistan, how will this affect Osama bin Laden's ability to hide?

NEAL: I think it causes great problems for him. I think his center of gravity was around the Taliban. He could kind of move with them. They provided the protection, the firewall so to speak, so that he didn't have to worry too much.

Now, his ability to move has been greatly diminished, with the exception of the refugee flow. He can mingle with some of the refugees and with some of the people trying to avoid the war fight that's going on. And although Ed is correct, his height sort of gives him away, he's smart enough to do the stooping and bending that allow him to blend in with some of the other Arabs.

BLITZER: How tall is he.

LUTTWAK: I think he is...

AHMAD: Six and four.

BLITZER: Six-four.

LUTTWAK: Six-four.

BLITZER: Which is a lot taller than most people in that part of world?

LUTTWAK: A lot taller than most people in any part of the world. And mainly, that he can't hide as a women, you see, because whether it's Taliban or not Taliban, there are lots of women in the entire area that are fully covered. And that's his handicap.

But listen, this is a war against terrorism. It's a war against terrorist organizations extending from Mendalau (ph) in the Philippines to Paraguay. I don't think that much point in focusing on Osama bin Laden. The main thing is if you destroy his organization, he might turn up. He might not turn up.

He has an interesting dilemma: If he wants to be secure against somebody grabbing him to sell him to the Americans, he needs lots of people around him. But the more people he has around him, the bigger signature he is and harder to hide.

BLITZER: But there is a $25 million bounty that the U.S. had offered.

LUTTWAK: Right.

BLITZER: Malik, I want to bring you in. I want to show our viewers another map that shows now what the Northern Alliance controls in Afghanistan. If you take a look at this area, we just updated it minutes ago.

All this area of the south, there isn't a whole lot of room down here for Osama bin Laden to hide presumably. But there's some speculation, as you know, that he could sneak across the border, find safe haven in Pakistan. He does have a lot of sympathizers there.

AHMAD: Not a lot of sympathizers. But the main thing is that if he gets into Pakistan, that will disturb our country. That will disturb peace and that might even topple Musharraf's (UNINTELLIGIBLE). And this is my worst nightmare, as a matter of fact, there's a great possibility that if he gets into Pakistan and that would be...

BLITZER: You don't think it's possible.

LUTTWAK: Listen, he was in Pakistan. He operated from Pakistan. Pakistan has a regular sort of army, police, normal control. It's not a wild west. I seriously doubt whether he would ever emerge or show himself in Pakistan. If he did, he might gather a few enthusiasts but then he would be arrested by the cops.

BLITZER: By the President Musharraf. All right, stand by. We are going to take a quick break.

When we return here in the CNN WAR ROOM, could someone within the Taliban now be ready to make a deal for Osama bin Laden? Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back.

I want to update you on tonight's late-breaking development. The eight Western aid workers including two Americans, Heather Mercer and Dana Currie, who had been held in Kabul on charges of trying to convert Muslims to Christianity, are now free.

U.S. administration officials say they were flown to Pakistan by U.S. military helicopters. We are standing by for some comments from some family members. When this happens, we'll bring that to you live.

But let's get back to the WAR ROOM right now. He has a big price on his head, namely Osama bin Laden. But with the regime in ruins, are some members of Afghanistan's Taliban now ready to betray Osama bin Laden.

The quick answer to that is what? Will the money pay off -- will the Taliban defectors help the U.S. find Osama bin Laden?

NEAL: They may.

BLITZER: Does money talk in that certain part of Afghanistan?

NEAL: Money talks. Obviously, that talks.

Obviously, I think the Taliban realize they were probably -- they had done the wrong thing by being hosting bin Laden and the al Qaeda and the have paid the price. They have lost power. They have lost their territory. They are out of government. They are on the run. They are being hunted down. You can see already that there's this -- they are probably looking back and evaluating and saying, "What have we done to ourselves."

BLITZER: Edward, we have another question from a viewer in Jenks, Oklahoma who asked this question: How can we be sure that Taliban defectors are not actually assigned to defect by bin Laden or the Taliban to work from the inside at destroying the Northern Alliance?

LUTTWAK: Well, the groups that are joining the Northern Alliance are Taliban only in a sense that at some late stage in the war, they had rallied to join the Taliban rather than be overrun.

Also, those days, the Taliban had money. They bought their way north into Afghanistan. So, they bought the allegiance of groups. They're certainly not ideological. It's not like they were faithful, devoted members of Taliban and suddenly, by joining the Northern Alliance, they could act as a fifth column as traitors -- no such thing. They went to the Taliban because Taliban were winners and they had money from Saudi Arabia. Now the Taliban don't have any money. And they are losers. So, there's no nothing to fear from that kind of stuff.

BLITZER: Malik, how much longer do you think it will be before Osama bin Laden is captured or killed?

AHMAD: Well, the ideal situation is that he is captured and killed.

BLITZER: The ideal situation is what?

AHMAD: That he is captured.

BLITZER: Not killed.

AHMAD: No, killed and captured -- both. BLITZER: You want him to be captured or killed.

AHMAD: ... or killed. Money talks more loudly in Afghanistan than elsewhere. So I think there is a possibility that he is killed, but even more to be captured. I have my doubts to whether he will be captured.

But, the worst-case scenario is that he disappears and we never find him. What happened to him? He can get into the northern area. He can get into tunnels, caves and we never find him.

BLITZER: You have been there, Edward. Do you think that could happen?

LUTTWAK: Well, I haven't been in any tunnels. I mean, when I was in Afghanistan, it was a nice peaceful country you traveled across. There are caves and tunnels everywhere.

The issue is, from the United States point of view, if the al Qaeda organization is destroyed, if terrorism is defeated and humiliated, then it will be that much easier to proceed and deal with the other terrorist organizations around the Middle East and beyond. And whether or not the actual body Osama bin Laden turns up or not.

NEAL: Yes, I agree with Ed.

BLITZER: Unfortunately, we have got to leave it there, General Neal. I have got to cut you off. But we will have you back. Thanks for joining us. Edward, Malik, thank you to all of you.

Still ahead, the Red Cross tries to save face and restore public trust. Find out what it now intends to do with all those donations raised for the victims of the September 11 terrorist attacks.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. Here's a quick look at the latest developments.

The eight Western aid workers, including two Americans, Heather Mercer and Dana Currie, who had been held in Kabul on charges of trying to convert Muslims to Christianity are now free and headed to Pakistan.

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, meanwhile, visited the former site of the World Trade Center earlier today. He praised recovery workers still digging through the smoldering debris.

And the American Red Cross is trying some damage control. In a policy reversal, it said today 100 percent of the money donated to the Liberty Fund will go to the victims of the September 11 terrorist attacks. The agency caught criticism after saying it had planned to set aside some of the money for future use.

That's all the time we have tonight. Please join us again tomorrow twice, at both 5:00 and 7:00 p.m. Eastern. Until then, thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. "CROSSFIRE" begins right now.

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