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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

The War Room: Does bin Laden Have a Secret Nuclear Option?; Are U.S. Troops Engaged in Ground Combat With the Taliban and Al Qaeda?

Aired November 16, 2001 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, HOST: Tonight on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS: "The War Room," U.S. officials say they believe a senior al Qaeda leader, a likely successor to Osama bin Laden, has been killed in an airstrike.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REAR ADM. JOHN STUFFLEBEEM, PENTAGON SPOKESMAN: I see that as one notch closer of this noose tightening.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Does bin Laden have a secret nuclear option?

Are U.S. troops now engaged in ground combat with the Taliban and al Qaeda?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: It is perfectly proper for the Northern Alliance and anyone else, including American soldiers, to tell people to either surrender or be killed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: We'll go live to Afghanistan and to the Pentagon.

With Afghanistan in chaos, who will fill the power vacuum? We'll ask former Senator Larry Pressler, former Congressman Charlie Wilson and former CIA Director James Woolsey as we go into "The War Room."

BLITZER: Good evening. I'm Wolf Blitzer reporting tonight from Washington. Osama bin Laden and his lieutenants are clearly on the run, so are Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar and his supporters.

Just a week ago, the Northern Alliance rebels controlled less than 10 percent of Afghanistan. Today they control two-thirds of the Texas-sized country. And the news for Osama bin Laden gets worse.

U.S. officials say they have credible reports, based on intelligence intercepts, that al Qaeda's military chief Mohammed Atef was killed in an airstrike south of Kabul a couple of days ago. Nicknamed al Khabir, meaning the big guy, the Egyptian has been considered one of al Qaeda's top three leaders. The Pentagon says al Qaeda will feel his loss.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STUFFLEBEEM: Osama bin Laden no longer has a principal assistant, that he has been counting on for developing military or terrorist operations.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Atef is on the FBI's most wanted list, and has been indicted in connection with the 1998 bombings of U.S. embassies in Africa.

Meanwhile, sources tell CNN the Taliban's supreme leader is giving in to pressure to leave the city of Kandahar, along with thousands of his troops.

CNN's Christiane Amanpour joins us now live from Kabul with the all the latest details -- Christiane.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, with so much of the territory of Afghanistan now out of Taliban hands, we are still waiting to see whether in fact Mullah Omar, the reclusive and one eyed leader of the Taliban, bows to apparent pressure to leave the capital -- his capital there of Kandahar. It's not clear on whether he will accept a deal by a local Pashtun warlord to hand over security of Kandahar, for the good of the city as reports have indicated, and leave with the bulk of his fighters from Kandahar.

In the meantime, in Konduz in Northern Afghanistan, one last stronghold of Taliban and indeed what they call foreign Arab fighters are the still holding out and battling fiercely with members of the Northern Alliance. The Northern Alliance has suggested that they have a certain period of time in which to surrender, or else face a full- scale assault. But these troops are said to be bolstered by 2,000- 3,000 of these Arab foreign legion forces that have joined them, and they are considered unlikely to surrender at least at the moment.

In Kabul as the Taliban have beat their hastiest retreat about 4 days ago, and the Northern Alliance have taken over, journalists have been scouring homes that used to be occupied by members of the Arab forces who came to fight with the Taliban, and indeed Arabs who were linked with al Qaeda. And what we found is a hot bed of terrorist activity and a trail that leads to terrorist intent.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): In this house deserted in the Taliban's hasty retreat from Kabul, we found a letter that appears to refer to the events of September 11. The writer, says he has changed his name and can no longer leave Afghanistan.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "You must be aware that I cannot travel anywhere by now due to what happened in the last operation in America. I am present now in Kandahar with the rest of the fighters." AMANPOUR: Our Arabic-speaking colleague, Eddie Mullak (ph) helped translate the piles of papers we discovered, some were written in English. This letter was sent to Abu Habbab (ph), which happens to be the name of one of Osama bin Laden's top lieutenants. Indicating the presence of terrorist training camps in Afghanistan, the letter says -- quote -- "I am sending some companions who are eager to be trained in explosives or whatever they want." It was signed and dated January 12, 2001.

We found this house empty, except for these papers in a bag tossed away as garbage. It appears to be detailed nuclear weapons research, some of which could have been taken from material that is already in the public domain. The Arabic handwriting says the biggest bombs, and when we flip through the photocopied hand-written pages, we found reference to uranium-235 and next, in English, the words, nuclear -- atomic bomb, and then TNT. And finally:

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Here it specifically mentions how to make a nuclear bomb.

AMANPOUR (on camera): While we were scouring this now abandoned house we came across this pictures on the wall, these are the falls of Iguazu in Brazil, and this is where intelligence officials say they've identified terrorist cells, that they say are linked to Osama bin Laden and the al Qaeda network.

(voice-over): We also found an 82 page training manual, that says it's published by the al Qaeda World Committee for Recruitment. Here's another carefully hand-written tract that instructs how to hijack and blow up airplanes and other facilities including bridges, towers, railways and ships. And in the shed of this house we found all sorts of chemicals, like sodium oxide (ph) and nitrate that experts say are used in explosives.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

Now, although, Osama bin Laden has expressed interest in weapons of mass destruction, experts say it's unlikely that he has the quantities of enriched uranium or plutonium to ensure a nuclear reaction. And if indeed the death of Mohammed Atef is confirmed it would deal a severe blow to the Osama bin Laden terrorist organization -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Christiane Amanpour in Kabul, thank you very much.

And meanwhile the United States has a growing number of troops inside Afghanistan, and they are very much involved in the fighting. CNN's military affairs correspondent, Jamie McIntyre, joins us now live from the Pentagon with that -- Jamie.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, after 40 days the Pentagon is finally beginning to lift a little bit of the veil of secrecy that has surrounded the operation of U.S. ground troops on the ground in Afghanistan, and they're beginning to give us a peek at what is actually going on.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(APPLAUSE)

(voice-over): On a trip to Chicago Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld revealed U.S. special forces in Southern Afghanistan, are not just calling in airstrikes and gathering intelligence, but in his words, killing the Taliban that won't surrender and al Qaeda that are trying to move from one place to another.

It was the clearest statement yet that U.S. troops are engaged in direct combat on the ground.

RUMSFELD: It is perfectly proper for the Northern Alliance and anyone else, including American soldiers, to tell people either to surrender or be killed. If you are in conflict that is what you do.

MCINTYRE: The Pentagon now acknowledges several hundred U.S. special operations forces are on the ground, and released this photograph, showing two Americans in light camouflage riding with Northern Alliance fighters, earlier this week, along with a picture of their low-tech supply transport. In addition, the Pentagon has de- classified some dispatches from U.S. forces in the field that give a flavor of the fighting. In one, dated Saturday November 10, a U.S. commando praised the bravery of the Northern Alliance fighters, writing:

"We came under direct artillery fire last night, which was less than 50 meters from me. When I ordered them to call close air support, they did so immediately without flinching."

The dispatch continues: "As you know, a [U.S. element] was nearly over-run four days ago and continued to call close air support and ensured [Mujahadeen] forces did not suffer a defeat."

Still the Pentagon insists so far its involvement on the ground is limited.

STUFFLEBEEM: There's not a sense that there is a group of forces that are roaming the country and looking to engage in fights, they are deliberately developing intelligence through reconnaissance.

MCINTYRE: The U.S. has also put about 40 troops on the ground along with more than 100 British marines at the Bagram air base in the north, to prepare the airport for humanitarian relief flights.

French forces are to do the same thing at the airport in Mazar-e Sharif.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

But the focus remains on the hunt for Osama bin Laden. And tonight, Pentagon officials say that he's got to feel less secure about where he is and what may happen to him next -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Jamie, do officials at the Pentagon know how Mohammed Atef was killed? MCINTYRE: Well, they have a pretty good theory. According to Pentagon sources, when they went back and looked at all the information, it appears that an airstrike on Tuesday that was aimed against an al Qaeda and Taliban leadership target may have been the airstrike that brought the death of Mohammed Atef. Pentagon sources say they can not confirm for sure, and they did not know he was there at the time. They simply knew that some senior leaders of al Qaeda were there, but at this point there's no reason to believe the reports of his death are untrue.

BLITZER: Jamie McIntyre, at the Pentagon, thank you very much.

And with things changing rapidly on the ground what's next in Afghanistan? I'm joined now by the former Republican Senator Larry Pressler. He spent 14 years on the Foreign Relations Committee and authored an amendment, which for a decade blocked U.S. aid to Pakistan because of its nuclear weapons program. James Woolsey, the former CIA director. He held that post at the time of the first attack on the World Trade Center in 1993. And former Democratic Congressman Charlie Wilson, a one-time backer of anti-Soviet rebels in Afghanistan. He's now a strong supporter of Pakistan.

You can take part, by the way, in our "War Room" discussion by e- mailings us your questions. Go to CNN.com/wolf.

And let me begin with you, Mr. Woolsey. This latest report of Mohammed Atef being killed. What does that mean as far as the U.S. war against al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden is concerned?

JAMES WOOLSEY, FORMER CIA DIRECTOR: Well, it's a good step. I think it shows B-52s are one good way to go after one of the 10 or 20 most wanted.

BLITZER: But does it signal the end is near in this war inside Afghanistan?

WOOLSEY: No, I don't think so, but I think if we can get the al Qaeda and the Taliban out of both Kandahar and of Konduz up in the north and get them into the hills, that will be a very bad place for them to spend the winter. People talk a lot about guerrilla warfare, but the Soviets in the '80s didn't have our infrared sensors and night vision equipment and all of the things that we will use against them. I think that winter, even bad weather, will be our friend, not our enemy.

BLITZER: And Charlie Wilson, let's go to the map and show our viewers what's going on right now. We'll put it up on our screen. Of course, here, down here in Kandahar, this is the area where the assumption is that Osama bin Laden's been hiding out with Mullah Omar, the leader of the Taliban, but you'll notice it's very close to Quetta along the border in Pakistan. How secure is that border? Can Osama bin Laden and his top lieutenants sneak into Pakistan?

CHARLIE WILSON, FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: Oh, of course they can. Fortunately, Osama bin Laden is 6-feet-6, and that's pretty tall for the population there, so it's going to be a little bit hard to disguise him.

BLITZER: As you know, there have been a lot of suggestions that he has support even within the Pakistani military intelligence service.

WILSON: Well, I think that's true, but I think that President Musharraf has pretty well proved that he's cleaning that up, and he replaced the head of the ISI when 9/11 took place.

I think that the border is porous. I think the Texas border with Mexico is pretty porous, the California border with Mexico is pretty porous. If they had a terrible disaster take place down there, I'd hate to be responsible for those two borders. But I think that the Pakistanis -- that the Pakistanis are watching. I think they will be very careful. I think they will keep the border as tight as they can. And as the former director knows, there's very little along that border that a handful of hundred-dollar bills won't by.

BLITZER: Senator Pressler, do you have confidence in the Pakistanis as an ally of the U.S. in this war on terrorism?

LARRY PRESSLER, FORMER SENATOR, U.S. REP.: I support what President Bush has been doing there. I am very concerned. Seymour Hersh pointed out in "The New Yorker," Pakistan has 24 nuclear warheads, and some dissident officers or a group of dissident officers could take one of those warheads and put it on a ship that could sale into one of our ports, for example.

BLITZER: Is that credible?

PRESSLER: So I hope very much that we are getting assurances in our aid to Pakistan, as John Glenn and I and Ronald Reagan -- actually, the old Pressler amendment was -- was put forth by Ronald Reagan.

BLITZER: Are you are confident that the security of those nuclear weapons in Pakistan is good?

WILSON: I'm more confident that that's good than I am the Russian nuclear warhead, and certainly as confident as I am with the Indian nuclear warheads.

BLITZER: What about that, Mr. Director?

WOOLSEY: Well, the Pakistanis have a lot of their components disassembled and spread away, spread out from one another, which is good. And I also, I think they could use, however, now in the current circumstances -- and the Indians too for that matter -- some help from us in, you know, tagging and vaults and a lot of the kinds of things that they really need in order to not only keep not only (UNINTELLIGIBLE) material but also other nuclear material that could be used just in a dirty bomb that is not explosive itself but could be packed around a high explosive and contaminate an area.

BLITZER: Senator Pressler, there is a viewer, Kyle from Chester, Pennsylvania sent in this question, it's related to what we are talking about. "Isn't it impossible for Pakistan to prevent the fleeing of top Taliban and al Qaeda leaders through the border?" That border is pretty...

PRESSLER: I think it's very difficult, and if Osama bin Laden should be in Pakistan and the Pakistanis capture him, they're going to have a very hard time giving him up, or they'll have a virtual revolution on their hands.

BLITZER: Is that true?

WILSON: I think that would be a big problem, but I think it would be a big problem for us to capture him, too. Whether he will be on trial in New York or at the Hague, I think the best thing to do is not to capture him.

PRESSLER: But what I'm trying to get to is we need, in addition to the short-range objectives, we need some long-term policy planning there, in terms of both with India, Pakistan and Afghanistan. I've been in all three places, and we don't want to give Pakistan a whole set of new weapons.

Now for example, I commend President Bush for not letting the F- 16 sale go forward now, because then they would have a first strike capability. That nuclear arsenal there is something that's very dangerous, and I hope that our policy-makers in exchange for the aid we are giving them are getting assurances that it's spread out and that indeed some of our people from the Pentagon could be there and be able to neutralize it. It's very dangerous.

In the next 10 years, the most dangerous thing in the world is going to be Pakistan's nuclear weapons, and we have to take steps now.

WILSON: Pakistan's nuclear weapons are no more dangerous than India's nuclear weapons.

(CROSSTALK)

WILSON: I've never been able to understand the differentiation.

PRESSLER: Well, they're both very dangerous.

BLITZER: Let's hold that thought for a moment. We are going to take a quick break. Coming up here in the CNN's War Room, his top lieutenant has evidently been killed in a U.S. air strike. Is the U.S. closing in on Osama bin Laden? We'll have more on that, stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. We will get back to our "War Room" discussion in just a moment, but first we want to update you on tonight's developing story about a suspicious letter sent to Vermont Senator Patrick Leahy. Let's go live to CNN national correspondent Eileen O'Connor. She has additional details -- Eileen.

EILEEN O'CONNOR, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the FBI is confirming that they are taking further tests on a letter to Patrick Leahy, the senator from Vermont. They say it's very similar, almost identical to one sent to Senate majority Tom Daschle.

In a statement by the FBI, they say the as yet unopened letter addressed to Senator Patrick Leahy of Vermont has an October 9, 2001 Trenton, New Jersey postmark. Appears to be in every respect to be similar to the other anthrax-laced letter, including that block lettering on the front of the letter. And sources are saying the preliminary tests do show that the letter does contain anthrax.

This was found in more than 250 barrels of letter the FBI hazardous material experts working with the FBI are going through right now. This was congressional mail that was quarantined after the discovery of that anthrax-laced letter in Senator Tom Daschle's office.

We are not clear right now, Wolf, whether or not this ever reached Senator Leahy's office. It may not have. His office building was tested for anthrax. No anthrax contamination has been found up to this point -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Eileen O'Connor, thank you very much for that update. CNN, of course, will continue to cover this story throughout the evening. Let's get back to our discussion here in the CNN "War Room." We have another question from, Mr. Director, Randy from Kalamazoo, Michigan, writes us with this question. Let me read it to you: "If bin Laden has indeed fled to Pakistan, do our special forces go after him, or do we, quote, "urge" Pakistan to apprehend him and turn him over to us?"

WOOLSEY: Oh, we urge Pakistan to apprehend him. Pakistan is a sovereign country, and General Musharraf has done quite a lot over the course of the last seven, eight weeks, nine weeks to help us, and we don't go around paging around Pakistan unless we do it with Pakistani authorities and Pakistani army, and they'd want our help under those circumstances, sure.

WILSON: I'm sure the director remembers that when the guy out at Langley, the Pakistanis murdered a couple of your people. The Pakistanis arrested them and sent them right back to the United States, so they've been good about that.

I'd like to say, Wolf, one thing, and that is, we are talking about if they do indeed abandon -- if the Taliban indeed abandons Kandahar and they go to the mountains, how much problem is that going to be? Is that going to be the same...

BLITZER: Since you're talking about it, let's put it up on a map and show our viewers the kind of topography that's around Kandahar. We should get it up right over here. This is Kandahar right here. To the south, all this area that I'm telestrating is desert, but if you go up north, all this area, mountains with caves. It's pretty hard do get in there, isn't it?

WILSON: It is, but I would remind you of one thing I think is very, very important here and very critical, and that is: Remember that these guys are going to be in those mountains in the wintertime. They're going to be with whatever they can carry on their backs. They're not going to have the kind of support that the mujahedeen had when they were fighting the Soviet Union. They're not going to have Jim Woolsey and the American Central Intelligence Agency and they're not going to have the Pakistan's ISI troops on the ground helping them. They're going to be all alone.

BLITZER: That's a big difference from what it was then.

WILSON: And I know from experience that those caves are pretty cold.

PRESSLER: I'd like to join -- I've been very impressed with General Musharraf, what he's done. What my fear is that the fundamentalist elements in the country at some point will revolt, or in some way -- it's just very much an tinderbox. But I should say that I think he's gone as far as he can go, and I commend him for what he's done.

WOOLSEY: It's not impossible, but you know, those demonstrations down in Pakistan have gone from thousands down to hundreds, and although they all look like crowds when you see them on television, if you look at the polls and all the rest in Pakistan, he's actually doing quite well in terms of keeping control of his country, I think.

PRESSLER: But also, in terms of long-range policy, we have got to be careful not to offend India too much, not to put them -- because in the long run, India is a democracy where there the nuclear button is controlled by a civilian, and they're largest democracy in the world, and we depend on them for a bulwark also against China.

(CROSSTALK)

WILSON: ... they are a democracy that was totally loyal to the Soviet Union for 50 solid years of the Cold War.

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: We are not going to relive that whole experience of the Cold War right now. I want to thank all of you for joining us once again here at the "War Room."

And when we come back, more on this hour's breaking news, another possible anthrax-tainted letter sent to a U.S. senator. That and more when we come back. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Here are some of the latest developments we are following. Senate sources tell CNN the FBI is testing a suspicious letter sent to Senator Patrick Leahy of Vermont. A statement released by the FBI just minutes ago says the letter appears to contain anthrax, but that more testing will be conducted.

The Senate sources say it was found in a batch of mail quarantined after the anthrax scare, and that it contains writing similar to other contaminated letters.

The U.S. House and Senate have passed a compromised aviation security bill that will federalize baggage screeners. President Bush is expected to sign it Monday.

And Atlanta's airport, often the world's busiest, was closed for more than three hours today after a man ran past security. The airport was evacuated, but the man has still not been found.

That's all the time we have tonight. Please join me Sunday on a special "LATE EDITION." Among my guests, the National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice. That's Sunday, at noon Eastern.

Until then, thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. "CROSSFIRE" begins right now.

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