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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

Can Afghanistan's Rival Factions Bring Order? Who Can U.S. Trust to Help Find Bin Laden?

Aired November 20, 2001 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOHN KING, CNN ANCHOR: We'll go live to the White House, the Pentagon and Kabul. And I'll speak live with Northern Alliance representative Haron Amin, and high terrorism and security consultant Kelly McCann, and Mansoor Ijaz, a South Asian expert who's been a go- between on other trouble spots.

Good evening. I'm John King, reporting tonight from Washington. Wolf Blitzer is off.

Can Afghanistan's rival factions bring order to a state in chaos? Who can the United States trust to help find Osama bin Laden? I'll ask our WAR ROOM guests. But first, let's turn to the situation on the ground.

The battle to end the Taliban's last grip on Afghanistan has reached a stand-off, but the political tug-of-war rages on.

CNN's Christiane Amanpour joins us live from the capital, Kabul -- Christiane.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, John, there was something of a breakthrough today, with the U.N. announcing that the Northern Alliance, or the United Front, had accepted the U.N.'s invitation to hold first round of talks outside of Afghanistan, perhaps in Germany, perhaps as early as Monday.

Earlier had I spoken to the president of the Northern Alliance, Mr. Rabbani, and I asked him whether he was prepared to share power and whether he was here to consolidate his control, and he repeated again, no, they have come to Kabul to establish security, and they are fully expecting to cooperate with the United Nations accepting plan and to have broad-based alliance.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BURHANUDDIN RABBANI, AFGHAN PRESIDENT (through translator): yes, I have already assured you, and I will assure you again, that we came to Kabul to bring peace and ensure security, and pave the way to invite Afghan groups to come here and start the peace process.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Now, both U.S. special envoy, Jim Dobbins, has been here this week talking with members of the Northern Alliance, and also the U.N. special envoy has been here for several days, negotiating with the Northern Alliance and with other different faction leaders, and there's been lot of pressure to the Northern Alliance by the U.N. to try to come up with this meeting abroad, and they are saying they want to do that because it's neutral site when many of the other factions perhaps don't have a presence here in Kabul and perhaps would feel as a disadvantage coming to Kabul when the Northern Alliance actually has consolidated it's security control of this city.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FRANCESC VENDRELL, U.N. ENVOY FOR AFGHANISTAN: Many other Afghans do not regard the United Front or the Northern Alliance as the legitimate government. It has not been approved by any international as a recognized mechanism, like elections, or a referendum. Therefore, other Afghans feel it is better to hold it in a new traditional place.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: Again, when we spoke to President Rabbani, he assured us and tried to assure international community they wanted to play -- cooperate with political plan envisioned by the U.N., and when asked when if there elections and voted out, would they agree to abide by those results. And the president said, yes, of course.

Now on the military front, as you mentioned, in Northern Afghanistan, one of Taliban's last stands continues there. There has been more bombing by U.S. aircraft and also the Northern Alliance sent in a three-man delegation to try to negotiate a surrender from the Taliban. We were told they would have three days or else to face an offensive. So we are waiting to see whether that delegation actually does produce some results -- John.

KING: Christiane, you are in Kabul. The search for Osama bin Laden focused more to the south, in Kandahar, and that area, but any reports trickling back to you in the capital about whether that $25 million reward and publication fliers promoting reward. Any indications that is proving to be effective strategy by United States?

AMANPOUR: Well, it's probably a little too soon, but certainly we haven't yet heard anything from what might call ordinary citizens on the streets. Of course people here do listen to their radios avidly, but I haven't seen any evidence here in Kabul of those flyers. What we did ask President Rabbani is, did they have information where he was? And they don't really have precise information, he said, but he believe he may be in the Kandahar province, a very mountainous region.

KING: Christiane Amanpour, tracking a very complicated story, a multifaceted story for us tonight from the capital of Kabul.

Thank you very much.

And now following a rapid-fire series of stunning developments, the pace of the war in Afghanistan has slowed somewhat. For the latest on that, let's go live now to CNN military affairs correspondent Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon -- Jamie.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, it has slowed somewhat, John, but it may just be a temporary pause. The U.S. is preparing to send more troops and more firepower into Afghanistan, specifically the Pentagon sources tell CNN the U.S. Air Force is preparing to send three more of those C-130 gunships, this time to Uzbekistan, where planes would be in a better position to be attack targets in the north.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): The U.S. continued bombing the last Taliban and al Qaeda strongholds in Kunduz and Kandahar, while opposition forces work to negotiate terms of surrender. The Pentagon says there's no bombing pause, except as requested by opposition commanders.

REAR ADM. JOHN STUFFLEBEEM, JOINT STAFF DEPUTY OPS. DIRECTOR: If the opposition groups were to ask us not to bomb a specific facility or location so they could continue their discussions, we'll certainly honor that.

MCINTYRE: Pentagon sources say the U.S. is considering beefing up its forces on the ground, by sending in Marines from ships off the coast of Pakistan. Pentagon sources say, depending on the mission, the number could be few as 100, or as many as 1,600.

With fighting at a standoff in both Kandahar and Kunduz, the U.S. dropped more wanted leaflets over Afghanistan, advertising a reward of up to $25 million for information leading to Osama bin Laden. The one thing the Pentagon doesn't want is for bin Laden, or any top Taliban or al Qaeda leaders, to engineer an escape.

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: If those folks were set free or in any way allowed to go to another country and cause the same kind of terrorist acts, it would be most unfortunate.

MCINTYRE: U.S. officials now say as many as 50 al Qaeda members died last week, in a series of airstrikes that killed Mohammed Atef, a chief deputy to bin Laden.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE: And Pentagon sources tell CNN that after that building where Atef was first struck by a U.S. Navy F-18 with a laser-guided bomb, the U.S. watched as suspected al Qaeda members poured out of the building, and then went back in, presumably to rescue people in the rubble. That's when the United States called in a second airstrike. Another U.S. Navy F-18 dropped another bomb, which is what resulted in the high death toll. As many as 50 al Qaeda members killed, including what some Pentagon officials called low level leadership -- John.

KING: Jamie, you mentioned the possibility of up to 1,600 marines in on the ground. What type of scenarios are we talking about here, Marines going in to hunt for Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda, for protective purposes? MCINTYRE: Well, they may be joining hunt for bin Laden, but Pentagon officials indicate they would not likely be going cave to cave. Instead, they're more likely to provide eyes on the ground, or react to specific intelligence if it was known that bin Laden or some other key official was in the area, and they needed more firepower. Altogether, they're more than 4,000 Marines offshore, and more than 2,000 of those are combat ready. And as the Pentagon said, once they decide exactly what they want them to do, they'll have an idea of what numbers they're talking about. They could also do something as simple as provide security at some of the airfields the U.S. wants to use for humanitarian relief.

KING: Jamie McIntyre, live for us tonight at the Pentagon. Thank you very much.

And as we focus on the campaign in Afghanistan, is the Bush administration preparing to fight terrorism on another front? Let's go live to CNN White House correspondent Kelly Wallace -- Kelly.

KELLY WALLACE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, John, the message from the Bush administration on this day is that this war against terrorism won't be limited to Afghanistan, that there will definitely be other fronts in this campaign. Mr. Bush making that message, making that point very, very clear during an Oval Office meeting with President Arroyo of the Philippines. Mr. Bush saying he will give President Arroyo whatever she needs in the fight with militant group know as Abu Sayyaf, which operates in the Philippines, and is believed to have links to Osama bin Laden's Al Qaeda network.

The message coming from Mr. Bush on this day is that Al Qaeda network is not the only target of this campaign.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The front against terror is not just in Afghanistan, that we are going to terror wherever it exists, and we will work with our allies and friends to use whatever resources we have to win the war against terror.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: And the White House announcing some new resources being provided to the Philippines, some $39 million in additional military aid to help pay for excess U.S. equipment, such as helicopters and rifles, going to the military in the Philippines.

Now another message coming from president, as this campaign in Afghanistan moves to more opposition groups on the ground, more use of U.S. special operation forces to try and find Osama bin Laden and other members of the Al Qaeda network, Mr. Bush saying again today, a message we have heard him say many days before, that this campaign will take time and that Americans must be patient.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: I want people in America to understand that first of all, the theater in Afghanistan is entering a difficult period of time. We can be there for quite a while, which is fine, because we have objective in mind, and we will stay there until we get our objective.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: And, John, the president now gearing up for trip to Fort Campbell, Kentucky tomorrow to meet with and have lunch with U.S. troops participating in the military campaign against Afghanistan and their families. Look for president to talk about the men and the women currently involved in this military campaign, and also the family whose will be without their loved ones on this Thanksgiving.

John back to you.

KING: Kelly Wallace for us live from the White House.

And as Afghanistan's factions jockey for power, does the United States have a reliable ally there?

Joining me now in the WAR ROOM, Haron Amin, once an anti-Soviet fighter, now A special representative of Afghanistan's Northern Alliance. Kelly McCann, CEO of Crucible Security, a former special- ops officer -- he's taught antiterror techniques to the military -- and Mansoor Ijaz, head of an investment firm. He brokered Sudan's counter-terror offer to the United States and proposed the blueprint for last year's cease-fire in Kashmir.

If you have questions for our guests, e-mail us at cnn.com/wolf. Let us begin, gentlemen, where Christiane Amanpour left off in her report about efforts to broker a political settlement here for a broad-based coalition government. There will be and meeting next week in Berlin. Northern Alliance will send representatives, but not your lead political representative, Mr. Rabbani, and that is raising some questions and some criticisms. Among those questioning that move earlier today, a key U.S. diplomat Richard Holbrooke. Let's listen to what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICHARD HOLBROOKE, FMR. U.S. AMB. TO U.N.: Rabbani isn't going to go to Germany. He's going to sit in Kabul and say, this country is mine. And if he gets away with that, the Pakistanis won't let him do it, and we are going to will fall back into chaos.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: He is your lead political representative. He is a former president of the country. If this is such an important meeting, why won't he go?

HARON AMIN, NORTHERN ALLIANCE REPRESENTATIVE: The question is, is it an important meeting? That's number one. Secondly, if delegation is being sent to that gathering, what is point of him going or somebody else going? The key issue here, as of now, the agenda of the meeting was not clearly pointed out. Number two, timeframe wasn't known. And number three, no one knew exactly how many of each of the four different process would actually be entailed in this whole gathering. Now it's been clear that there will be certain members from the United Front as well as king's people, and marginal numbers, both from the Cyprus process (ph) as well as the Peshawar convention. So with that being clear, but certainly because the delegation is being sent to Germany this coming Saturday.

KING: But many, including your critics, are questioning your commitment and your goodwill heading into these discussions. Why not shut them up by sending your top political man. The secretary of state of the United States said this is an important meeting. The German foreign minister said Germany was proud to host it, that it was a very important meeting. The U.N. special envoy said it was an important meeting. You could quite your critics in one fell swoop by sending your top men.

AMIN: Let me be very frank. I think that the important thing is a process, not so much exactly who goes. Certainly Dr. Abdullah will be going, Sarconi (ph) will be going, and others from United Front, from the Uzbeks and the Hezzaras (ph) and others also be going. And I think that the issue is the process, not so much exactly who goes. They haven't specifically said, that you have to send the president or so, and so forth. That has not been clearly indicated. The delegation will be going, and they'll be going this coming Saturday.

KING: Mansoor, you heard Mr. Holbrooke raise questions about the intentions here. Do you have suspicious about why not send Mr. Rabbani? Do you trust the Northern Alliance at this point?

MANSOOR IJAZ, SOUTH ASIA ANALYST: Well, again, with no personal issue involved here, I just have to say that this is a lot of diplomatic double-speak that we have been hearing for a long time. The fact of the matter is that not only is Rabbani not willing to go, but they still do not have a single, credible significant Pashtun leader involved in this process. And until you get the Pashtuns from the south, there is no chance that there is going to will broad-based government in Afghanistan, and without that, the Pakistanis could be lost as our critical ally in the region in this war on terrorism.

We, the American people, are there to conduct a war against terror. We are not there to replace one Afghan government that was a minority with another Afghan government that was a minority. That's just not in the card for us.

KING: Kelly McCann, you have experience as a special-ops officer yourself. You trained peacekeepers. Your company trains peacekeepers. There is all this talk of a multinational force. You hear these two gentlemen, they can't agree even on a format to discuss a potential solution, let alone a political solution. Would you send peacekeepers into this environment?

J. KELLY MCCANN, PRESIDENT & CEO, CRUCIBLE: No. That needs to be vectored towards nongovernmental organizations, and we should empower the country to help themselves. I mean, you know, Haron, you know yourself, I mean, you are best qualified to decided what goes on in our country, not from a Western ideal or standard. We have tried to do that before, John. (CROSSTALK)

MCCANN: Well, you know, what I'm saying, in your country. But what I'm saying is you as Afghani are empowered to understand how those pieces fit. Our Western understanding of that is totally different. We don't normally deal with tribal customs and tribal understanding of how government works. So the American people sometimes think like Senate, Congress, things that make sense and our ordered to them.

In Afghanistan, their people make sense and order out of tribal way of government, and I think that should be left there.

KING: Let's take a look at map that shows ethnic breakdown, very complicated within Afghanistan, the different ethnic factions, tribes and others. Some have said this idea of one broad-based government is not going to work. we will be back to more civil war, and some have said, let's divide it, can we do something like this? Can we divide the country like this?

AMIN: The idea is, how about the before the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Afghanistan came into existence in 1747, through Alloy Jurga (ph). It lived on peacefully with its neighbors, with the Brits and with others. So in 1978, from 1990, all the way down to 1979, there was relative peace in the country. No killing, none of that whatsoever.

When left to themselves, Afghans can come up with their own administration. The problem is that whenever we talk about Afghan solution, the only side that is antagonistic are the Pakistanis. And certainly, they may have a say, legitimate rights, but indeed, they do not have exclusive legitimate rights in Afghanistan, and that is the problem with Pakistan.

Right now, the international community is completely on one position, vis-a-vis Afghanistan, and then you've got the Pakistanis always saying the questions, this questions, that we know our problems, we know our country. We told the international community do it this way, it worked. Now the hand no Osama bin Laden in very close. And then the Pakistanis are still their way, and I think this is the problem.

IJAZ: Just you know, a very simple question, then why are the Pashtuns who are relevant in this equation not yet involved?

AMIN: The king is Pashtun, 50 percent of the entire...

IJAZ: Will the king be...

AMIN: His representatives will be in the meeting. The security council resolution did not say Rabbani and the king have to be there. They said delegations should be there. I don't think that Francesc Vendrell has got a problem with this, or the U.N., or any other countries.

Certainly that would be a point of be concern if it's explicitly stated they should attend, and they didn't attend.

KING: Our viewers have questions like this. I'll bring you right back in Kelly.

Here's Mohan in Beaverton, Oregon: "Is it prudent to involve Pakistan in forming a viable government in Afghanistan when Pakistan has been the source of the Taliban?"

Now as the U.S. military operates in this area, there are reports from time to time that there are still factions within the Pakistan military, intelligence services and others, helping the Taliban, encouraging the Taliban.

MCCANN: There's no question. I mean, what I am going to say about this discussion that you gentlemen just have, is that the Americans don't have arms long enough to separate everybody over there. We just don't. And any time that we have gone to a peacekeeping operation, we're the darlings of the moment, and then several moment into it, we are suddenly not the darlings anymore. So I think we're much better to use Colin Powell -- he just assigned Tony Zinni now as his adviser -- to enable the regional experts to deal with that problem. We have other problems and other places that we need to address.

IJAZ: The problem here is the following: When you get to a point where Pakistan's -- Pakistan is not democracy right now, OK. It's run by a military government, and a military government has to look at its national security interest, and if they the get impression that they are being squeezed on one side by a minority government wants to, for example, take the northern regions and allow air raids to be conducted from their by the Indian government and all the weapons that are being sold from India to the Northern Alliance, and they get the impression that they are being squeezed between now a different kind of Afghanistan and India on the other side, we lose a critical ally. And for the American people and American soldiers to be put in harm's way in an attack of that sort, and in a strategy of that sort, where we are not getting the Northern Alliance to come clean with us is absolutely not acceptable.

AMIN: See, and there's again the problem. There is the admission that Pakistan is being led by a military junta. We are happy that this military junta has realized that the Taliban position of Afghanistan is not to its advantage, that it was going to also be also self destructive for Pakistan. It is part of that international coalition. The international coalition is responsible for hopefully putting a government in Afghanistan. The international community is looking into the Pakistani interest, but the international community is not making the Pakistani interest the exclusive interest in Afghanistan. That's the important thing.

And I think the ultimate thing is, certainly, we have go about this with an open mind, and I think that the international coalition is coming together to form a representative government in Afghanistan, in which the United Front, in which the king, in which the Pashtuns can play a role. And let me emphasize the Pashtuns are the largest ethnic group in Afghanistan, and they represent, and they should, they deserve a proportion of the presentation.

MCCANN: Being selfish just for a second, though, go back the military peacekeeping. With that in mind, OK, what went wrong in the Soviet invasion with fixed troops, an occupying force that was fixed in place, and that put them in great peril, and I think that if we go into a full-scale peacekeeping operation, we will have had a brilliant military success followed by maybe the same military blunder made earlier, and I don't think anybody will do that anyone is going to do that. So it will be interesting to see.

KING: You were shaking your head quickly. You don't trust...

(CROSSTALK)

IJAZ: Again, it comes down to the fact that you can't say that Pakistan's interests are not relevant. The international community has also said that Pakistan is the frontline ally in this war against terrorism. It is very true that there are some bad things that went on in that part of world prior to September 11th. September 11th changed a lot of the facts on the ground. The ISI is not same institution anymore. They don't play same the same kind of games anymore. We can't count on that.

KING: Let's hit pause button here. I have to earn my pay, and we have to take a quick break.

Coming up in the WAROOM, as it combs Afghanistan for Osama bin Laden, can the United States count on any help?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Welcome back to the WAR ROOM. In a land of warlords where allegiances shift with the wind, who can the United States trust to help it hunt down Osama bin Laden? We will continue our discussion with Haron Amin, Mansoor Ijaz, Kelly McCann.

Let's start with this question, an e-mail question posed to us from one of our viewers, Costa in Salem, Massachusetts: "What type of support and training can we provide Northern Alliance troops as they start to search cave upon cave for bin Laden?"

KING: Can we provide such training, and is it realistic to ask Northern Alliance to go looking in the hills and the mountains?

MCCANN: They know better than anyone that space, so yes, we can provide them the technical expertise to do tactics in those spaces, yes.

KING: Will they do those missions?

AMIN: Well, of course. Our forces are engaged on the ground. They have been working with the international community's special forces? We will do everything that we have at our disposal, and its intelligence, whether its people defect to actually provide any we have information passed on to the international community and coalition. The important thing is that Osama bin Laden is as much America's enemy as he is also our enemy. He has been killing our people, and he has been brutalizing, brutally treating our people for a long time, and in fact, he was behind the assassination of our military chief Amich Ames Masood (ph).

So certainly, I think in this whole coalition, we are part of the same game.

KING: Mansoor Ijaz, let's look at the border. It's not just an issue of looking in the caves and up in the hills. The Pentagon has raised issues this week that perhaps Osama bin Laden, or deputies in Al Qaeda or key Taliban officials would try escape. Look at the border area here. We have some desert down here, mountains up here. Are you satisfied that the government of Pakistan, maybe with help from the CIA, the U.S. military -- is that a secure border, or could someone get across, and if they got across, despite Pakistan's government support for the coalition, maybe is there safe support harbor somewhere?

IJAZ: I don't think it's a safe and secure border. I didn't think anybody in the world that been to Afghanistan and Pakistan can ever say that. For one, I don't believe Mohammed Atef is dead. The fact of the matter is, that these are masters of deception and diversion. What we have to do it keep our eye on the ball, and we have to ensure that we have an ally in the Northern Alliance that will not at the same time that they are trying to help us search cave to cave give up position of our troops to somebody else for pay. We have make sure that they are not going to go out there and sell arms and ammunitions to the very guys that we are trying to eradicate from the other side. This is kind of stuff that has gone on in Afghanistan for years, and that is what we cannot allow to have happen again.

KING: You are smiling, but it's not a happy smile.

AMIN: No, it's not a happy smile. I will tell you from early on, I emphasized one point, and that that is that America ought to be very cautious and not totally remaining calm, and that maybe Osama bin Laden is not going to sneak through border into Pakistan. Clearly there have been collaborations in the past between certain ISI members and others in Pakistan, with Al Qaeda, with the Taliban.

I would be very fearful, and I think that the deployment of the American forces are justified, because there is the apprehension that maybe you can make it across border into Pakistan.

KING: Let me stop you right there, 30 seconds, you are pro -- how do you stop him from moving around? Is that what those Marines are going there for?

AMIN: It could be. They have a maritime special purpose force, which could be forward-deployed, has its own air asset, its own assault element, its own covering force, so if we can get close to him, we can snag him.

The bottom line is, we have heard tonight, we can believe ourselves and our technical expertise with overhead imagery, with input that will sort through, and find out, ferret down, get to the bottom line, but the American experts on the ground are the ones that will be able to confirm the deal.

KING: Yes or no, or they will fire me -- do you trust Pakistan to maintain that border?

MCCANN: You ask hard questions, John. I that would say with our help, they will.

KING: All right, we've got to take a quick break here. "CROSSFIRE" comes your way at bottom of hour.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Welcome back to the WAR ROOM. Here are the latest developments: The Pentagon is considering a temporary halt to the bombing of Konduz. Top military players say airstrikes could be adjusted if the northern alliance felt that would help negotiations with Taliban leaders.

The governor of Connecticut says an elderly woman is being treated for a suspected case of inhalation anthrax. She's in serious condition. Governor John Rowland says the woman seldom left her home and has no connection with the U.S. Postal Service.

Traces amounts of anthrax have been found in the offices of Senator Edward Kennedy and Christopher Dodd. That's the first time the substance has been found in the Russell Senate office building, which is also where a suspicious letter was sent to Senator Patrick Leahy. That's all the time we have tonight. Please join me tomorrow twice, at both 5:00 and 7:00 p.m. Eastern. Until then, thank you very much for watching.

I'm John King in Washington. "CROSSFIRE" begins right now.

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