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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

The War Room: Will the Taliban Give Up Strongholds in Northern Afghanistan?; Does the U.S. Want the Taliban to Surrender?

Aired November 23, 2001 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: Tonight on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS: "The War Room." Will the Taliban give up their last stronghold in northern Afghanistan? Will the Northern Alliance now move into the Taliban heartland? As the war rages on in Afghanistan, we will go Konduz, Kabul and the Pentagon.

Does the U.S. want a Taliban surrender, or the destruction of hard-line Taliban and al Qaeda fighters? Is the U.S. setting the stage for civil war? We will hear from the experts as we go into "The War Room."

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, I'm Martin Savidge reporting tonight from the CNN center in Atlanta. Wolf Blitzer is off.

We will get to our War Room guests shortly, but let's first get a check on the situation on the ground in Afghanistan. As Northern Alliance lay siege to a Taliban stronghold of Konduz, they're on the move elsewhere in Afghanistan. Let's go live to CNN's Christiane Amanpour in the capital of Kabul. Good evening to you, Christiane.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Martin, a lot of developments from here around Afghanistan. You mentioned Konduz in the north, which is still being stubbornly hung on to by the Taliban, and particularly, we understand, by the Arab mercenaries who are fighting with them.

Although the fighting continues and U.S. bombing has been taking place of the frontline positions, a Northern Alliance commander still believes that by Sunday the Taliban will put down their arms. We will wait to see if that development actually becomes a reality.

Meanwhile in Kabul, another pocket of Taliban resistance, just west of this city, in which Northern Alliance have been fighting with the Taliban commander there who is known for his resistance and who wants to hang on to a ridge that he has just in the place called Madan Shahr. There's been fighting for two days, and latest news is that the Northern Alliance pulled back from the positions that they were occupying, trying to push back the Taliban. So far, they haven't succeeded in pushing back the Taliban from that position, slightly west of Kabul.

Now in Kandahar, that situation is still unknown. We still don't know whether the Taliban are beginning to melt away from there, or whether they are determined to fight to the death, like they've been claiming in other parts of Afghanistan. What we do understand is that one of the war lords who has won back the western town of Herat -- his name is Ismael Khan (ph) -- is now threatening to move south toward Kandahar and Helmand. These are two provinces that are held by the Taliban in the south and the southwest of the country -- Martin.

SAVIDGE: Christiane, let's talk about another potential battlefield much to the north, actually. Bonn, Germany. Tuesday now said to be the meeting date for talking about a post-Taliban government in Afghanistan. The Northern Alliance going into this meeting -- what -- with the idea that they are going give up what they have?

AMANPOUR: Well, battlefield or peace negotiations, many people are saying here that this is the do or die. It's either this arrangement that will work, and if it doesn't, well, then Afghanistan will be basically subjected to the same kind of civil war that it's been undergoing for the last 20 years or so.

When we asked the Northern Alliance over and over again -- of course, you know they have control obviously of Kabul, the capital -- whether they're willing to share power, they insist yes, that they are here simply to pave the groundwork for these peace talks. They are obviously a big party to these peace talks, but they insist that they are ready to play ball with the international community, and that they want to go to this Bonn talks to try to hammer out modalities for this broad-based alliance.

Nobody is saying it's going to be easy. The U.N. is saying that it's a first step, but it's an important first step.

SAVIDGE: All right, so the surrender of Konduz and now the talks in Bonn, Germany, both of those up in the hour at this hour. CNN's Christiane Amanpour, thank you very much.

Now more on that waiting game under way around Konduz. CNN's Satinder Bindra is there. He's got the latest on the promise to surrender and the fighting that goes on in spite of it.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SATINDER BINDRA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Waiting patiently for the big battle to begin, the strain shows on the faces of these Northern Alliance soldiers. They've been ordered by their commanders to hold off attacking Konduz until Saturday, to allow thousands of trapped Taliban soldiers, both Afghans and so-called hard-core fighters from overseas, the chance to surrender.

On Thursday, 300 Afghan Taliban soldiers defected to the Northern Alliance, but the Northern Alliance says it will not be easy to entice thousands of trapped Taliban troops from Pakistan, Chechnya, Uzbekistan and other Arab countries to surrender.

MIR MOHAMMAD OSHAL, NORTHERN ALLIANCE COMMANDER (through translator): The Pakistani and Arab people will not defect to us. We will have war.

BINDRA: One senior Northern Alliance general tells CNN hard-core Taliban fighters are now gathering around Konduz Airport, waiting to be rescued. Northern Alliance sources say over the past few days they've been hearing planes coming in to land at the airport, but cannot say where they're from.

On Thursday, anti-Taliban forces launched a massive rocket and armored attack against Konduz.

(on camera): After hours of fighting, the Northern Alliance says its forces captured the village of Sowka (ph), just four miles from here. A short while later, the Taliban launched a massive counter- offensive and recaptured Sowka (ph).

(voice-over): Many of these front lines believe the Taliban still have plenty of fight left in them, so the Northern Alliance look to the skies and to U.S. planes for help.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): The bombardment must hit the exact target, and the bombardment must eradicate the al Qaeda group.

BINDRA: Washington agrees. It says the trapped al Qaeda fighters must either be killed, or they can surrender. But they cannot be allowed to get away.

Satinder Bindra, CNN, on the front lines near Konduz, northern Afghanistan.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SAVIDGE: Konduz was one of several sites targeted by U.S. forces Thanksgiving day. Most were bombed, but others got humanitarian aid. CNN's Brian Nelson is live at the Pentagon with details on that. Good evening, Brian.

BRIAN NELSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Martin. Well, the scene here at the Pentagon all day was a little misleading. The hallways and the briefing rooms of the Pentagon are quiet and empty, as Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld is in New Mexico for the Thanksgiving weekend, and most of the Pentagon staff seemed to have had the weekend off as well.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): Not so in the skies over Konduz, Jalalabad and Kandahar. U.S. Central Command said yesterday that 60 U.S. military aircraft, including B-52 bombers, attacked Taliban and al Qaeda targets, command and control sites, and tunnels and caves. U.S. Central Command also disclosed that the U.S. dropped a 15,000-pound so-called daisy cutter bomb south of Kandahar on Wednesday. The U.S. military increasingly is turning its attention to that southern Taliban stronghold.

The daisy cutter has been dropped twice before in the Afghan war; its effect is to wreak havoc and demoralize fighters, and it seems to have done so with great success in northern Afghanistan.

Aircraft also dropped 19,000 humanitarian rations, as well as 80 containers of wheat and blankets around Konduz, the Taliban-held northern city surrounded by the Northern Alliance, and that will be a welcome sight for the refugees streaming out of Konduz. They are carrying what little they can as they try to get out in time before the tenuous stand-off between the Alliance and Taliban and the al Qaeda forces erupts into a full-scale shoot-out.

Meanwhile, a U.S. military spokesman would not confirm reports that the U.S. believes some high-ranking lieutenants of Osama bin Laden are among those thousands of Taliban and al Qaeda troops trapped in Konduz. The spokesman said, "if I knew, I wouldn't tell you, because then they'd know and try to escape."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NELSON: As for the efforts to try to effect a cease-fire and a surrender in Konduz, the same military spokesman said that all those negotiations are to be conducted solely by the Northern Alliance and that the U.S. military is simply conveying its wishes to them in those negotiations.

Now, of course, one of those wishes is that if a surrender does in fact take place that the al Qaeda and the senior Taliban members who are very close to Osama bin Laden who are trapped inside the city of Konduz do not get set free -- Martin.

SAVIDGE: Sounds like it may take more than wishing. All right, Brian Nelson, reporting to us live from the Pentagon this evening, thanks very much.

Cornered in Konduz, Taliban forces have a choice: Surrender or die. They may be preparing to give up, but does the U.S. want to let up? Can it allow safe passage to hard-line Taliban and al Qaeda fighters, letting them live to perhaps fight again another day? We have battened down the hatches, closed the doors and rigged for red in the War Room. Joining me now is retired Air Force Major General and CNN analyst Don Shepherd, Omar Samad of Azadi Afghan Radio and the Afghanistan Information Center, and Milt Copulos, an adviser in the Reagan White House. He's now president of the National Defense Council Foundation. And keep in mind, you can e-mail your War Room questions to CNN.com/wolf.

Let's get started right away with you, general. And if you would, show us the hot spots right now. We are talking obviously about Konduz and Kandahar. Why are they significant, and what do you think is going to happen in the next, say, 48?

MAJ. GEN. DON SHEPPERD (RET.), U.S. AIR FORCE: Well, if we can go to the map here, I'm going to illustrate on the map from Washington, if I can. The real hot spot is right up here in Konduz in the north. That's where the troops are encircled. The Northern Alliance reportedly have about 30,000 troops encircling reportedly between 5,000 and 15,000 of the Taliban and the foreign fighters in the area. Also, what's taking place now is action to the west of Kabul in this area right here. Clean-up pockets, if you will, by local war lords and local Taliban, and of course the big question is what happens now: Is the Northern Alliance going to move south from Kabul down toward Kandahar and southeast from Herat down toward Kandahar. So all of that is shaping up with the big story being Konduz and what happens there in the next couple of days.

SAVIDGE: All right, let me move on now to Milt Copulos and ask you on this specific front. It looks like the euphoria is now passed as far as swift victory. The U.S. may be standing with one foot on a slippery slope and another on a banana peel. Is this exactly what you were concerned about in Afghanistan?

MILT COPULOS, NATIONAL DEFENSE COUNCIL FOUNDATION: Well, one of the concerns we have had all along is that, unfortunately, we have a tendency to allow ourselves with people who have, at best, a checkered past. You know, clearly the overall strategy we had, which was to use -- conduct an unconventional war supported by General (UNINTELLIGIBLE) forces works, and that means you have to use people on the ground.

And the people on the ground who were most capable were the Northern Alliance. But there are elements within the Northern Alliance that have a very checkered history of human rights abuses, involvement in the drug trade. And this is a pattern we've seen over the years. Unfortunately, we often wind up allying ourselves with people who we later come to regret we've made an arrangement with.

SAVIDGE: All right, well, let me says Omar Samad. This is your nation we are talking about here. What has the U.S. wrought? Are the people of Afghanistan better off tonight than they were under Taliban rule?

OMAR SAMAD, AZADI AFGHAN RADIO: Well, I don't think there's any doubt whatsoever that the people of Afghanistan tonight are better off than what they did and how they lived about a month or so ago. Obviously, the Northern Alliance is the only force that is credible on the ground today, militarily.

Politically, it's another issue. We need to look at how to come about with a new political scene in Afghanistan that's acceptable to all. But the question is -- and I would ask Milt is -- what options do you have? I mean, we do have pockets of resistance against the Taliban in the south where some Pashtun Afghans are fighting trying very hard -- and have for the past few weeks -- trying to put pressure on Kandahar. It hasn't really given any results yet, but I think that eventually it will.

SAVIDGE: All right, well, let me just interrupt you there because I want to switch over back to Kunduz. This is, obviously, going to be the focal point this weekend, the surrender. General, what do we know about how this surrender is supposed to be carried out?

SHEPPERD: We know, first of all, that the first time that the Northern Alliance went into Kunduz to try to arrange surrender terms, they were shot at. Then they retreated to Mazar-e Sharif for talks. And during those talks, supposedly, the surrender terms were arranged.

And what we know now is that tomorrow, supposedly, they're supposed to lay down the arms in the area and then surrender on Sunday, supposedly surrender means the local Taliban being allowed to surrender and perhaps go back to their villages, the hardcore Taliban being separated to be interrogated and sorted, if you will, and then the foreign fighters of the area being, supposedly, taken to an area west of Mazar-e Sharif to Dostum's headquarters to be interred and perhaps tried under Islamic justice.

The exact terms of whether this will take place, what time and all that, we have not yet been told. And until that time, fighting and bombing continues.

SAVIDGE: What about these fighters that come from other nations? Where do they go? Do we let them slip back to their homelands, perhaps to fight us again another day, or do we hold them indefinitely?

COPULOS: Well, the Northern Alliance has been very clear on that. They want them held. And one of the great concerns we have is in Mazar-e Sharif, after that city was taken, there was an indication that there were up to 400 or 500 people. They weren't sure if they were killed in the action or executed, but there was some suspicion that they were executed. And there obviously is a concern that's what is going happen to these foreign fighters.

At the same time, you have to realize that these people were essentially an occupying force. They were very repressive. The reports of the last days of the Taliban regime indicate that they, perhaps, were really running the show, not the local residents.

And, yes, what happened in Afghanistan is kind of an illustration of the old adage, "people who trade freedom for security soon have neither." What happened was, if you recall, there was a very corrupt regime that took place after the Soviets were thrown out. The Taliban initially were seen as people who would come in and clean up the corruption and actually did have popular support in that. And then, of course, they became very repressive and went to an extreme that nobody could condone.

So there's a very complicated history. And we have to remember, in that part of the world, history is not like yesterday. We think of history in this country...

SAVIDGE: I don't want to interrupt you, but I do want to give Omar a chance to talk. It's his nation. He knows this history very well. What is the seeds that have been sewn here as far as what do you think the backlash of the Afghan people would be to these say, fighters that have come from other nations? Do we hold them? Do we let them go? What's the right thing?

SAMAD: Well, let me first of all say that these foreign fighters, Arabs, Pakistanis, Chechens, all the way to Malaysians, have come to Afghanistan at the behest of the Taliban and they all went to Pakistan. So, at the time, the Pakistani authorities were also involved in helping them come to Afghanistan, train for whatever reasons, maybe go back to Kashmir and fight the Indians.

The Afghans don't want these people on their soil. What is going to happen, unfortunately, looking at past experience, is that these foreign fighters will not give up. They will not surrender. The Afghans will have to go after them. If it means killing each and every one of them, that is basically their option, meaning the option of the foreign fighters, their decision not to surrender.

What happened in Mazar-e Sharif, as Milt mentioned earlier, was the same exact situation where the foreign fighters holed up in a school did not want to surrender. They were given time to surrender, to lay their arms down. They didn't. The Afghans had no choice but to go after them.

SAVIDGE: This issue is something raised by one of our viewers in an e-mail that comes to us from Charleston, Illinois. And it says that: Since so many of the Taliban are from Pakistan and some will probably escape back there through a border that is fairly porous, will the coalition be inclined to root them out of Pakistan as well?

General, that's a very good question. Do we go into Pakistan to try to track these troops down? And what are the Pakistanis going say about that? They are our allies here.

SHEPPERD: Well, we would have to have the permission concurrence of Pakistan to do so. And I believe that Pakistan is not eager to have insurrection in their own country. So Pakistan is likely going to be responsible for going after these people.

It's also worth mentioning that General Franks recently went to Mazar-e Sharif, visiting the country up there, and made it clear that if these people are captured, that we do not want to see prisoners from either side mistreated. There are precedents for interring these people, taking them to other countries to be held until this is over. So there are other ways to get out of this other than suicide, other than fighting to the death and other than slaughtering innocent prisoners up there. And I think there are methods that we can find to do that if these people are taken as prisoners.

SAVIDGE: All right, we are going take a break now.

(CROSSTALK)

SAVIDGE: Well, I'll tell you what, hold that thought until after the break. We are going to take a break now. We'll come back and talk about the future for the U.S. and Afghanistan right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SAVIDGE: Welcome back.

What happens after the Taliban and al Qaeda are gone? Will Afghanistan's warlords once again turn on one another? Should the United States help build a new Afghanistan or get out while the getting is good? Milt, I interrupted you. Let me -- you have first crack at this question. Should we be there at all, or should we get out while this civil war that seems to be brewing starts?

COPULOS: Well, I don't think there is any choice, first of all, for us to go, and secondly I think we would be remiss in walking away from it, because what's going to be equally as important is what we do on the ground in resolving the military situation as what we do afterward to ensure that we get a humanitarian situation, that we help the country become what it can be. And also, you know, Omar was making the point about Pakistani involvement. Let us not forget the Saudi involvement in this either.

SAVIDGE: Well, you know what, we are going to bring in an e-mail real quick because we have got the opportunity. Manan from Bangladesh writes, "Is there the possibility of Afghanistan breaking up?" Some may say that's a moot point in this particular juncture. Omar, what would you say?

SAMAD: I don't think that there's that possibility. You know, as an Afghan, I have never come across any Afghan, whether they were Pashtun Afghan, Hazara, Uzbek, Tajik, urban or rural, man or woman, who was ever advocated breaking up the country.

They want a united, a free and an independent country where men and women are treated under law and with justice and in fairness. We would like to see a new government obviously that represents all segments of the Afghan society come about, and there's a lot of work, as you mentioned earlier, that's being done right now. And next week, we will have the major Afghan groupings get together in Bonn.

SAVIDGE: Well, let me show you the map that we flashed just a few seconds ago, because it shows the ethnic break-up that is within Afghanistan. And general, the question of, you know, will Afghanistan break apart, you look at this, and then say, when was it ever really whole?

SHEPPERD: Well, I'll tell you what, I'm not an expert, and Omar is the man to talk about all these ethnic break-ups, but clearly what we do not want is we do not want the United States military responsible for putting this country back together. The mission of the United States military has been to get rid of the Taliban regime, then get rid of the al Qaeda cells and hopefully bin Laden. Once that's done, the U.S. military needs to get out, and they need to use U.S. assistance through the United Nations, basically, to effect the humanitarian and the governmental things that need to be done, which is an interim government for about a two-year period, and then a final government for Afghanistan decided upon by the Afghan people.

But we must not get tied into a guerrilla warfare playing their game. Our job is to go after al Qaeda and the cells that remain after all the Taliban areas are secured, and not get bogged down into nation building as a military.

SAVIDGE: Omar, you plan to be in Bonn, Germany for these talks that are slated to begin on Tuesday. What do you anticipated? Is this going to be a frank, a very organized discussion, or do you think that all heck could break out here amongst these groups?

SAMAD: No, I don't think all heck is going to break out. I think that the four major groupings are going to get together, and maybe a fifth one if things changed around Kandahar, for example. We'll all sit around the table, and they will look at an initial framework for convening a larger gathering of Afghans, representative of all ethnic and regional parts of the country, and they will in turn select an interim government, as Don earlier mentioned, that will be in power for two years. They will have the responsibility to draft a constitution, and then have maybe elections for a more permanent government.

I don't see too many differences between these groups. I just talked to the leaders of some of these groupings that are going to Bonn, and they are somewhat optimistic, and I, as an Afghan, am also very optimistic that the initial steps will be positive.

SAVIDGE: Milt, let me ask you, do you share that optimism, and where should the U.S. be in these talks? In the front row, or sitting in the back of the room watching?

COPULOS: Well I think, first of all, we have the ability to exert enormous influence through our aid, and I think we will need to let the Afghan people decide what their fate will be. However, what we also have to do is ensure that whatever outcome is taken, and that does belong with the United Nations, not with the military.

One of the things I found encouraging was that Turkey sent troops to Afghanistan. There are close ties between some Afghan troops and the Turks, and I think what we need to do eventually is see the United Nations in there ideally -- you may need a peacekeeping force, but if it is, I would like to see it come from some of the Islamic nations.

SAVIDGE: General, I want to ask you one question about the future. There were other international troops that were to join this effort, Germany was one of those nations. We are hearing inklings from the Northern Alliance they don't want them there. What's going on?

SHEPPERD: This is very, very interesting. This is something that's very interesting. We need to find out why the Northern Alliance doesn't want these troops in, because they are being brought in for the humanitarian, to get the airports up to speed, humanitarian et cetera. But now Afghanistan wants it to be Afghanistan of the Afghans. I find that very, very encouraging at least.

SAVIDGE: All right, General Don Shepperd. Go ahead.

SAMAD: Let me just say that I think that the Afghans are somewhat sensitive about foreign troops on their soil, as we are very sensitive about terrorists on our soil. But at the same time I think they would like to see all Afghans maybe in Bonn agree that they would like to see peacekeepers or international troops, whether they are from Islamic countries or under the U.N., be in Afghanistan.

We don't want just one group to agree or disagree. SAVIDGE: All right, Omar, we have got to end it there. Thank you very much. General Don Shepperd, of course, always thanks for your insight. Omar Samad of Azadi Afghan Radio, and also Milt Copulos, an adviser in the Reagan White House, now president of the National Defense Council. Thank you all three for joining us this evening.

"CROSSFIRE" will come your way at the bottom of the hour.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SAVIDGE: Here are some of the latest developments we are following. There is more fighting in Konduz despite the Taliban's agreement to surrender the city on Sunday. Northern Alliance forces launched rockets at Taliban positions, while U.S. war planes targeted them from above. Some Taliban fighters are already surrendering, including at least 300 yesterday.

Preliminary testing on the mail of the latest anthrax victim, negative. Her mailbox and local post office also clean. Investigators baffled as to how 94-year-old Ottilie Lundgren of Connecticut contracted the inhalation anthrax that killed her on Wednesday.

At least seven Palestinians are dead after an especially violent day in the Middle East. Hamas sources that their top militant, Abu Hanoud, was killed in one incident when an Israeli helicopter fired on his taxi near Nablus in the West Bank. The Israeli army is not commenting.

That's all the time we have tonight. Please stay with CNN throughout the evening. I'm Martin Savidge. "CROSSFIRE" begins right now.

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