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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

Ridge Warns, America is Still Vulnerable

Aired December 03, 2001 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Hello from Washington where, moments ago, as you just saw live here on CNN, the U.S. director of Homeland Security reminded the American public this country is still vulnerable to terrorist attacks, and it is still at war.

Let's begin our coverage with CNN senior White House correspondent, John King. He's over at the White House. John, give us the headlines.

JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, the Homeland Security director, Wolf, Governor Tom Ridge, coming into the briefing to say Americans must be on alert. He says the reason for reiterating this alert, not only to the American people, but to 18,000 law enforcement agencies across the country, is because U.S. intelligence services have picked up, in recent days, a dramatically increased level of communication, credible information, they believe, about the possibility of another threat, another wave of terrorist attacks on the United States or on U.S. interests overseas.

Governor Ridge, being very careful at what he said at this White House briefing about the sources of that information. But we know from other senior administration sources and our national security correspondent, David Ensor, picking up from U.S. intelligence officials, several sources saying that a number of these contacts that have been picked up by U.S. intelligence agencies do trace back to the al Qaeda organization.

So the administration believing there is, again, a credible threat of a new wave of terrorist strikes on the United States. So, deciding to make another public alert to the American people, another warning notice to law enforcement agencies across the country.

Even as he did so, Governor Ridge, the president's point man on domestic terrorism, urging the American people to go about their lives and to be vigilant. But he said with the approaching end of the Muslim holy period of Ramadan, other Christian and Jewish holidays approaching as well, that the administration believes there is significantly increased risk of a terrorist attack in the next few weeks.

And because of the high number of communications intercepted by U.S. intelligence agencies, they decided to make, yet again, a dramatic warning to the American people -- Wolf. BLITZER: John, stand by. I want to play for our viewers, who may have missed the operative comment made by the Homeland Security Director Tom Ridge, precisely what he said. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TOM RIDGE, HOMELAND SECURITY DIRECTOR: Over the last several days, our intelligence and law enforcement agencies have seen an increased volume and level of activity involving threats of terrorist attacks. The information we have does not point to any specific target, either in America or abroad. And it does not outline any specific type of attack.

However, the analysts who review this information believe the quantity and level of threats are above the norm and have reached a threshold where we should once again place the public on general alert, just as we have done on two previous occasions since September 11th.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: John, as you well know, and as the homeland security director was asked, this is obviously going to have an impact the American public. He did say in his words he wants this not to be a signal to stop your life, referring to the American public. But how do they balance the pros an cons of issuing these kinds of public alerts with the potential damage to the economy, for example, if people are afraid to go out and go shopping?

KING: One of the reasons this announcement came close to 5:00, and not early this morning, after the decision was made by the president, much earlier today this morning to make this announcement, was they wanted to wait for the financial markets to close. That is one evidence they do take into account, as they make these decisions, the potential impact on the U.S. economy.

Obviously, the U.S. economy in recession now. That is a major concern to the administration. But the president has said, and Governor Ridge just repeated it here in the briefing room, that when they believe this information reaches a threshold -- and he said that's an art, not a science. It requires a judgment.

But when they believe the information is repetitive in nature and believed to be credible, and reached that threshold, they have a responsibility to tell the American people, regardless of what the psychological or the economic impact just might be.

BLITZER: All right, John, stand by. I want to get back to you later. But I want to bring in David Ensor, our national security correspondent, who is also reporting on this story, trying to find out at least some of the reasons for this additional, this third alert to the American public. David, tell us what you have.

DAVID ENSOR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, very little to add to what has already been reported here, Wolf. But perhaps, for what it's worth, here it is. First of all, as our colleague just said, U.S. intelligence officials are telling me that the threat that they are hearing, the increased level of threat they are hearing, is coming from the al Qaeda group headed by Osama bin Laden.

So it is the organization, obviously, that is in contention in Afghanistan, the group that is accused of being responsible for the September 11th attacks. And that obviously raises the level of seriousness with which this is viewed.

Now, there's been a raised threat level since September 11th all along. U.S. intelligence listening in on various conversations, and gathering human intelligence from all sorts of other places. A lot of help from other countries now coming in. So there has been quite a high level of threat out there.

But it has risen in the last few days, to a level where the policymakers, Governor Ridge and others, the president, presumably, as well, decided that it was time once again to warn the public. Part of this, we're told, is to sort of let law enforcement at the state and local level know, and other facilities that may have to raise their security level in the coming days, that this is a time when they should not let their guard down. This is a time when there is a higher threat than there has usually been.

Again, we believe, based on U.S. intelligence sources, that the threat comes from the al Qaeda organization -- Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, David Ensor, our national security correspondent, thank you very much.

I want to bring in now Paul Bremer, a former State Department ambassador at large for counterterrorism, who knows this issue quite well. It's always, Ambassador Bremer, a very delicate balancing act, when to issue these kinds of alerts. Are you sympathetic to the decision of the Bush administration to go ahead and, in effect, alarm the American public?

PAUL BREMER, TERRORISM EXPERT: Well, I'm very sympathetic. I've seen this situation from the inside. And you have a stack of information coming in every 24 hours. And it's very hard to sort through and make the judgments.

And the first point I think that Governor Ridge made is very important. They are very good professional analysts who have been doing this, in many cases, for decades. And they get a feel for the intelligence. They get a feel for when it's rising.

Second point is, we almost never get good tactical intelligence on a terrorist attack. And when we get it, obviously the thing to do is to disrupt the attack, to go after the terrorists before they conduct the attack. So what you're seeing here is more in the nature of a strategic warning -- that is, to say, the threat level has gone up. And this is a difficult thing, then, for the government to decide. It's a close call. I think they have done the right thing.

BLITZER: Even though there were two earlier alerts that were never rescinded. In effect, they were continuing. Why issue a third which could, as I said earlier, perhaps overly alarm the public, just at a time when the American public was beginning to go out and go shopping, trying to get the economy back on track?

BREMER: Well, look, the state of the economy can't take first place, in terms of security of the American people. The government has to do what it has to do to protect the people, whatever the effect on the economy is. Governor Ridge said it right. What happens is, it's human nature.

You know, you're told to be on the alert. And after September 11th, for a while, everybody was. Then there were a couple of other alerts. And there's no doubt that people's human nature is that they tend to then sort of fall back a bit. And that's OK, except that, apparently, in the last 48, 72 hours, we've seen an increase in the kind of intelligence coming in, that suggests we're moving into a more dangerous period.

I think the fact that bin Laden is sitting in a cold cave somewhere, not knowing if he's going to be alive in a week, by itself, just conceptually increases the risk. Because he, presumably, would want to strike back at us again while he's still alive. So I think, even without intelligence, we'd have to say this is a dangerous period.

BLITZER: All right, Ambassador Bremer, stand by, because I want to bring you back. We're going to continue this discussion on terrorism, how it's being played out, as far as the war in Afghanistan is concerned, as well as the latest terrorist incidents in Israel, on the Israeli retaliatory strikes.

We're going to take a quick break. When we come back, we'll get the latest from Jerusalem on those Israeli retaliatory strikes. We'll also find out what's happening on the ground in Afghanistan. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. Israel retaliated today for weekend terror attacks that killed 28 people. Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon promised a war against terrorism. And he said he blames the weekend bombings directly on the Palestinian leader, Yasser Arafat.

Israeli helicopter gunships fired missiles into buildings near Arafat's Gaza City headquarters. Reports say the missiles hit an underground fuel depot and destroyed two of Arafat's helicopters. Local hospitals report about 10 people wounded.

As fires at the compound burned after dark, Palestinian leaders condemned the strikes as dangerous, and said the Israeli resort to force will undermine efforts by Arafat to halt terror attacks on Israel by Palestinian militants. In addition to the helicopter strikes against Gaza, Israeli warplanes attacked targets in the West Bank town of Jenin. An Israeli official said the targets that were struck had been evacuated in advance.

In Israel over the weekend, Palestinian bombers struck two cities within 12 hours, Haifa and Jerusalem. The worst of the suicide bombings, 15 people were killed in a bus explosion in Haifa. Today in the West Bank town of Nablus, hundreds of people marched at the funeral of one of the suicide bombers. The march took place despite an official ban imposed by Yasser Arafat's Palestinian Authority.

For the latest now on today's Israeli attacks and where all of this may be heading, we turn to our Jerusalem bureau chief, Mike Hanna. Mike, give us the latest.

MIKE HANNA, CNN JERUSALEM BUREAU CHIEF: Will, Wolf, at the moment the Israeli cabinet is holding a meeting, a meeting that could prove critical in terms of what happens in the days, weeks and possibly years to come. It is deciding whether or not its official position is that the Palestinian Authority is a viable partner in negotiation, a potentially viable partner in negotiation, or whether the Palestinian Authority is an enemy of the state of Israel and must be dealt with accordingly.

Earlier this evening, Ariel Sharon, the Israeli prime minister, said that he believes that Yasser Arafat had taken a tactical option for violence, that Israel was facing a threat of terror from the Palestinian Authority, which he held responsible for acts of violence against Israeli civilians. So the cabinet is taking a decision.

It is a coalition government, one must remember. And some within the government, such as Foreign Minister Shimon Peres, would not agree with his Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's position, that the Palestinian Authority is not a viable negotiating partner. So, this being discussed.

At the same time, the Palestinian Authority, viciously condemning, angrily condemning the Israeli military operations in the course of the day, saying that this makes the task of Yasser Arafat, in terms of curbing the actions of militants, all the more difficult. Saying quite bluntly, according to one Palestinian leader, that Israel is virtually declaring war against the Palestinian Authority -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Mike, I want to play, for you and for our viewers, an excerpt from what Prime Minister Sharon had to say, and follow that with an excerpt from Hanan Ashrawi, a Palestinian Authority spokeswoman, responding to these latest developments. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARIEL SHARON, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: This war of terrorism, like wars of the past, is being imposed upon us. We know who has brought it on us. We know who is responsible. Arafat is responsible for everything that is happening here. Arafat made his strategic choice, choosing a strategy of terrorism, choosing to achieve political goals through murder, by slaughtering innocent citizens. In doing this, Arafat has opted for terrorism.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) HANAN ASHRAWI, PALESTINIAN LEGISLATOR: I see it as a kind of incitement, and preparing the grounds for coming further escalation, which has been, from the beginning, as military escalation has been from the beginning, the cause of this ongoing violence and this cycle of revenge.

I think it's extremely dangerous. It's extremely provocative. And I think he is laying the grounds for further deterioration in conditions, and for massive attacks against the Palestinians. And of course, for legitimizing his own illegal attempts at targeting the Palestinian Authority, and scapegoating Arafat in person.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: That was Hanan Ashrawi and Israeli prime minister, Ariel Sharon. Mike Hanna, while I still have you, General Zinni, the U.S. special envoy, the retired U.S. Marine Corps general who has been in Israel over these past several days, trying to revive the peace process, is he still there? Does he realistically have any chance of getting anything done any time soon?

HANNA: Well, that's something he'd like to find out for himself, Wolf. General Zinni has stated for, in particular, that there is no coincidence that there's been an upsurge of violence since his arrival here, just over a week ago. He believes, and has stated publicly, that there are militants, there are radicals, who are intent on sabotaging his mission. His mission: to get a working cease-fire in place on the ground.

Certainly, the violence of the past eight days has been intense. And Mr. Zinni does really believe that this is a conscious attempt to sabotage his mission, by militants. Well, he has said that he will stay in the region until his mission is accomplished. That mission, to get the sides to agree to a cease-fire.

But after these days of ongoing violence, ongoing deaths, it's very difficult to see how a cease-fire can be achieved at this point. And for Mr. Zinni, it's a very, very difficult process, a very, very difficult task, to get the sides to begin talking about a cease-fire, let alone, get a cease-fire observed on the ground -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Mike Hanna, back in Jerusalem after spending Sunday in Washington, covering Prime Minister Sharon's meeting with President Bush. Thank you very much.

And responding on behalf of President Bush, chief White House press secretary Ari Fleischer said today's attacks that Israel did engage in -- that Israel does have a right to self defense, a right to defend itself. And an administration official tells CNN the United States is, in his words, "fed up" -- those are the official's exact words -- with the Palestinian leader, Yasser Arafat.

CNN's John king once again joins us from the White House with more on this story. John, the reaction at the White House was surprisingly muted in the past, as you well know. The administration, several administrations, have always urged Israeli restraint. I didn't hear it this time.

KING: You did not hear it, and we are told by senior officials closely involved in the making and shaping of Middle East policy, you will not hear it, at least for the next day or. The Bush administration believes, as you noted, that Israel has the right to respond to these deadly attacks over the weekend. They fully understand.

They don't agree with it in every detail, but they understand the parallel Prime Minister Sharon drew today, likening, essentially, the Palestinian leader, Yasser Arafat, to the Taliban in Afghanistan. Mr. Bush has said the United States has the right to strike the Taliban because it harbors terrorists. Prime Minister Sharon now saying he has the right to attack key Palestinian installations, because in his view, Mr. Arafat is harboring terrorists.

The questions at the White House briefing today, over and over again, Mr. Fleischer was asked for the administration's assessment of the Israeli response. Instead, his answers made clear this administration puts the burden on Mr. Arafat.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The president thinks that this is a chance now for Yasser Arafat to demonstrate real leadership, that is lasting, that is enduring, that puts people responsible for this away, and does so in such a way that they cannot get out again, and commit more terror. The president thinks it's very important that Palestinian jails not only have bars on the front, but no longer have revolving doors at the back.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: The administration questioning Mr. Arafat's commitment to this cause of defeating terrorism from the Palestinian territories. One day after Mr. Bush met with the Israeli leader here at the White House, U.S. officials saying in no way did Mr. Bush give any specific green light, the White House termed, for what the Israelis decided to do today in retaliation.

But it is also clear, as you noted, Wolf, in the past, the administration has urged restraint. Or, in the past, when Israel has used its helicopter gunships, the administration has said the response was -- quote -- "disproportionate" -- in this case, the administration saying it believed the Israeli government had every right to respond -- U.S. officials, for now, standing with the prime minister -- some officials saying the key test will be in the next several days to see whether, in the word of one senior official, Mr. Sharon overplays his hand -- Wolf.

BLITZER: John King over at the White House, thank you once again very much.

And still to come on our program: a debate over what the U.S. steps -- the next steps should be in this conflict in the Middle East. But, up next: today's developments on the ground in Afghanistan. And an American is also in Afghanistan, an American from the United States who is only 20 years old, from Northern California. He wound up becoming, guess what, a Taliban soldier. We will find out all of the details.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Coming up: a debate on U.S. policy toward the Israeli- Palestinian conflict.

But, first, once again, let's go to Joie Chen in Atlanta for a quick check of the latest developments -- Joie.

JOIE CHEN, CNN ANCHOR: Wolf, we just heard a few minutes ago the director of homeland security, Tom Ridge, announcing the possibility of another terrorist attack in the United States. Ridge cited the quantity and volume of threats in recent days as the reason for issuing a new security alert. He urged Americans to be vigilant and aware. It is the third such alert issued by the government since the terror attacks in September.

After a weekend of violence killed at least 25 Israelis, the Israeli military struck back, and hard, today. Israeli warplanes attacked Palestinian targets in the West Bank and Gaza. At least 15 people were wounded -- one of the targets hit: a security compound near the headquarters of Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat. Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon declared war on terrorism.

A 20-year-old American claims he fought with the Taliban. And the man, identified as John Walker, surrendered in Mazar-e-Sharif, which was the site, of course, of a prison uprising by Taliban fighters. Walker is now in the custody of the U.S. military in Afghanistan. His mother says he must have been brainwashed to have joined the Taliban.

U.S. Marines and Afghan rebel groups are gearing up for a possible attack on Kandahar. That is the last city controlled by the Taliban. There are now some 1,000 Marines based at an airfield within striking distance of that southern city. Heavy U.S. air strikes today destroyed two bridges leading from the city, leaving only one possible escape route out of it.

U.S. B-52 bombers today pounded the mountains of Northeastern Afghanistan, where Osama bin Laden and senior Taliban leaders may be hiding. A Pentagon spokesman say there is no evidence to support reports that civilian areas are being hit in the bombing raids. However, some Afghans say people were wounded when their village was bombed.

The United States and Canada have agreed to beef up security along their shared 4,000-mile border. Under the plan, more than 400 National Guard troops will be deployed at 43 border crossings. U.S. military planes will patrol the skies along the border. And Canadian officials will join a U.S. terrorist-tracking task force.

That's a look at the latest stories of the hour. We'll continue to follow up with any updates from here -- now let's go back to Wolf.

BLITZER: Thank you very much, Joie.

The Bush administration has offered guarded support to Israel in the wake of the weekend bombings that left 28 people dead. Is that the right stand for the U.S. to take as it tries to encourage an end to the violence in the Middle East?

To discuss that, I'm joined by Leon Charney. He is a New York attorney, the author of a new book entitled "The Charney Report: Confronting the Israeli-Arab Conflict" -- also Jean Abi-Nader. He is the managing director of the Arab American Institute here in Washington.

Thanks to both of you for joining us.

And let me begin with you first, Jean. The Bush administration is effectively supporting the Israelis in these retaliatory strikes. What is wrong with that in the aftermath of the weekend terrorist incidents in Jerusalem and Haifa?

JEAN ABI-NADER, ARAB AMERICAN INSTITUTE: It's a question of to what degree there is retaliation and to what degree there is revenge.

Unfortunately, one never knows with Prime Minister Sharon whether or not he is going to be excessive in his response or if he going to really try to bring a sensibility to the situation, where the people can actually move back toward the negotiating table. We are not sure. We can't count on Sharon, knowing him from his best behavior.

BLITZER: Well, Leon Charney, you know Ariel Sharon quite well. What is he going to do? What is his strategy, as far as you can tell?

LEON CHARNEY, JERUSALEM EXPLORATORY CMTE: Ariel Sharon is going to war. In my opinion, Yasser Arafat is dead as someone that anyone can deal with.

I think that he has crisscrossed so many times and violated so many agreements that he had that he is just not a credible partner. And there's no way that Israel can negotiate with Arafat. My opinion is that Arafat, if he is in control, should be tried as a terrorist like Milosevic, because he has killed so many innocent victims and children. And if he wasn't in control, he ought to resign or they ought to pump him up and make him sort of a president ceremonially. But they need new leadership in the Palestinian Authority today in order for them to have any credibility.

BLITZER: Jean Abi-Nader, you know the Palestinian leader, Yasser Arafat. You have spoken to him on many occasions. Can he control the situation on the ground as far as additional future terrorist incidents are concerned?

ABI-NADER: No, I don't think he can. I think that he lost the initiative about six months ago when he made his decision to allow Hamas and Jihad to have almost an equal share in terms of decision-making vis-a-vis the process of the intifada retaliation toward Israel.

I think the real difficultly now is, it's of control. He neither has the ammunition or the armaments or the trained people that can take charge of situation the way it is now. People in the streets, for example, take revenge against Arafat's people when they try to arrest Hamas people. And so he is in a very, very difficult situation without anything to offer in response to cracking down on Hamas and Jihad. I don't see how Arafat can go ahead and try to bring any more sensibility to the situation than we have right now.

BLITZER: As you know, Leon, there are a lot of U.S. officials who fear that Israeli retaliatory strikes might wind up, when all is said and done, merely fueling what they call the cycle of violence, making a bad situation potentially even a lot worse, and with serious ramifications for the U.S. war against terrorism, especially in Afghanistan. How do you deal with that?

CHARNEY: Well, let me bring out two points, Wolf.

No. 1, I believe that Iraqi is funding a lot of these suicide terrorists. So, implicitly, the United States has Iraq involved in the situation. This comes to me from really good inside sources in Israel.

The second thing is, what this fellow said whom I am debating here, let Arafat leave. And let him give back the $5 billion that he took from the European Union and from Japan, which has never -- he has never given to his people. I'm not worried about the United States and its coalition. I think good Arab countries like Mubarak and Hussein, Egypt and Jordan, they understand exactly what this type of terrorism is. And they are against it.

And I think the United States can stand strong with Israel and have no repercussions.

BLITZER: Well, let me ask you, Jean Abi-Nader, what should the Bush administration's stance at this delicate moment right now be?

ABI-NADER: I think the Bush administration has to say very forcefully to Arafat: "Get things under control. We want to see a very strong effort. And we want to see a sincere effort. And we want to see actions immediately," which is what they have done.

But, on the other hand, they also have to say to Sharon and to the Israeli people: "Listen, if you want peace, some real sacrifices have to be made. You have to remove the settlements. You have to offer some conditions for which people can believe that you are true negotiating partners."

Right now neither side is laying on the table a posture that the other side can trust in and accept. So I don't think that we can talk about a peace process here. What we are really talking about is getting people to stop the violence and reduce the kind of tension and cycle of terror that they are visiting upon each other.

CHARNEY: Well, that is a fallacious...

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: Let me interrupt, Leon. Unfortunately, we have to leave it right there. But we will have you both back, Leon Charney in New York and Jean Abi-Nader of the Arab American Institute. He was joining us from Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.

Thanks to both of you once again for joining us.

And, as we have been reporting, Israeli retaliation to the weekend suicide bombings could create problems for the U.S.-led coalition that has been formed to fight in the war against terrorism. The coalition depends in part on Arab support.

Once again we are joined by Paul Bremer, the former director of the State Department's Counterterrorism Bureau, a longtime State Department official.

You go back with Henry Kissinger when he was shuttling between Damascus and Jerusalem, trying to get the peace process going in the aftermath of the 1973 war.

Is there anything the U.S. government can do right now to calm things down between the Israelis and the Palestinians?

PAUL BREMER, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR: I'm not sure we should calm it down.

I think, in fact, you have to remember the situation the Israelis are in. They took equivalent losses, on a per capita basis, of several thousand people in the last 10 days. It's almost sort of half of what we took in the World Trade Center attack. This is a very serious attack. And I think what we are seeing now, Wolf, is a very a bright light being shined on some of the hold bromides in the region which are no longer valid.

The first one is that the double game that Arafat and others have played in the region of saying one thing to us and another thing to their Arab followers has got to stop. You can't say you are against terrorism on one side and then wink out of your eye the other side. You cannot say you are going to round up terrorists and then, as Secretary Powell said yesterday, just let them go. That has got to stop.

BLITZER: You heard Leon Charney say -- and Jean Abi-Nader as well -- that they're not sure -- Leon Charney certainly not sure -- that Arafat can control the situation on the ground.

BREMER: Well, but that's the dilemma. If Arafat can control it on the ground, then he should have done it before. And if he can't control it, then he's not an (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE). He's not somebody you can negotiate with.

BLITZER: But he is the democratically elected president of the Palestinian Authority.

BREMER: Well, he is the leader. Democratically elected might be a bit of a stretch -- a bit of a stretch.

BLITZER: Well, those elections were monitored by various international monitors.

BREMER: Well, whatever he is -- if he is the responsible leader, then he has a responsibility to stop terrorism full stop.

And the second bromide that sort of comes under a bright light here is this moral equivalence that what Israel does is also terrorism. That's not true. Israel does occupy territories. And that is a problem, there's no question. But Israel does not target intentionally civilians the way these people do.

It also shows that the war against terrorism, which the president noted was declared on us by the terrorists on September 11, has got to go beyond what the administration has been talking about. They have been talking about a war on terrorist groups with global reach. But we have to fight also Hamas, Hezbollah and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad.

BLITZER: The United States directly or...

BREMER: Well, Hezbollah has killed more Americans -- Hezbollah has killed more Americans than all other terrorist groups in the world combined.

BLITZER: They're mostly in South Lebanon.

BREMER: They're in South Lebanon. They also operate in the Palestinian Authority territory, as do several other small Palestinian groups.

And as the president said, we have got to stop letting territories be used by terrorists against us and our friends. And that's really what is at stake now in the Palestinian Authority. Arafat has got to

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: So what you are basically saying, there is no difference between al Qaeda, and Hamas, or Palestinian Islamic Jihad, or Hezbollah.

BREMER: Conceptually, there is simply no difference whatsoever. There is a difference in the level of threat directly to Americans, but there is conceptually no difference. Once you allow terrorists to operate freely from your territory, which Yasser Arafat has done, he is in the same league as the Taliban.

BLITZER: All right, strong words from Ambassador -- former ambassador, retired ambassador -- Paul Bremer. Thanks for joining us.

BREMER: Good to see you. BLITZER: Thank you.

Let's check some other international stories that we are following right now.

Progress is reported at talks in Germany to create an interim government in Afghanistan. According to sources, a revised draft agreement hammered out by the United Nations is almost complete. The accord is being considered by the four Afghan factions involved in the talks.

Tempers flared today outside a Canadian relief office in the Afghan capital, Kabul. Scores of angry Afghans, including many women, apparently expecting relief supplies, were turned away empty-handed -- no word on why the aid was not distributed.

Tonight, here in the CNN "War Room": balancing the needs of Arab and Muslim members of the anti-terror coalition. With today's developments in the Middle East, join me in the CNN "War Room" 7:00 Eastern, 4:00 Pacific.

And, by the way, you can participate in the discussion. Just log into our Web site: CNN.com/wolf. Click the icon. Send questions. I will ask as many of them as I can to our guests.

Up next: how a 20-year-old American wound up being a Taliban soldier. And could there be more Americans fighting against the United States?

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back.

The discovery of a captured Taliban fighter who is an American has left people who know him shocked and confused. John Walker is now in the custody of U.S. special forces somewhere in Afghanistan.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN WALKER, TALIBAN FIGHTER: I was a student in Pakistan studying Islam. And I came into contact many people who were connected with Taliban. I lived in the region in a northwest frontier province. The people there in general have a great love for the Taliban. So I started to read some of the literature of the scholars and the history of the moment. And this -- my heart became attached to them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: But who was John Walker before he joined the Taliban?

CNN's Joie Chen joins us once again, this time from the CNN Map Room with some answers -- Joie. CHEN: Wolf, the trail that led John Walker to become a Taliban fighter began here in the southern part of Yemen at Sana. This is where his folks told "Newsweek" magazine John Walker went to study Arabic, which apparently he became a pretty good student at. But how that scholarly pursuit led Walker to end up becoming a Taliban fighter in Afghanistan remains a puzzle, even to his parents.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL JONES, FAMILY FRIEND: The parents are very, very upset and very confused, because this is -- what they saw on CNN was frightening. They hadn't seen or heard from him in seven months. And they were desperate. They were afraid that he was hurt somewhere or maybe in the hospital. They tried to get ahold of him. They couldn't. And so to see him lying on this hospital floor with his blackened face and his eyes rolling up into his skull really, really frightened them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHEN: What Walker's parents do know is that the young man, who now calls himself Abdul Hamid after an Afghan poet, had been raised a Catholic. But as a high school student in the San Francisco Bay area, he had been turned on to Islam.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAREN BRESLAU, "NEWSWEEK": As a high school student, his father says he read the autobiography of Malcolm X and came home one day and declared that he wished to convert to Islam.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHEN: From California to Yemen -- we talked about that a moment ago -- Walker then moved on to Pakistan. Now, he went there to attend a religious school. They call those the madrasa. It was in the northwest territory, the frontier territory of Pakistan, along the Afghanistan border.

In April, he called his mother from here. And he told her that he was headed to a cooler place for the summer, but instead he ultimately became a fighter for the Taliban. And you can see it in our inset map of Afghanistan. This is the place that he ended up. He had done some fighting in Konduz, been among those Taliban fighters who were captured, taken prisoner in Mazar-e-Sharif. And, as you know, there was a great deal of rioting there. That is how he ultimately ended up in the custody of the U.S. military.

Now, his mother told "Newsweek" magazine she thought he might have been brainwashed while he was out in Pakistan, perhaps as a very young man. He was only 19 years old when was in Pakistan, alone in a country where he knew absolutely no one ahead of time. She fears that some charismatic leaders might have led him astray.

Walker, though, told his story to CNN.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WALKER: The Taliban have a separate branch in the army. They have Afghans and they have the non-Afghans. So I was with the separate branch of the non-Afghans.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what is the non-Afghani branch called?

WALKER: It's called Anzar (ph). It means "the helpless."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHEN: Now, the Pentagon says that he is being held somewhere inside of Afghanistan. He is in the control, they call it, of U.S. forces. But exactly what that means, Wolf -- whether he is a POW, whether he is under any kind of arrest, even where he has been being questioned -- has not being answered by authorities yet.

BLITZER: Joie, I think a lot of viewers were listening very closely to what John Walker saying. We detected a slight accent. Did you hear that?

CHEN: Right. After all, Wolf, bear in mind that this is a young man who has been through fighting. He said that he hadn't eaten for a week before the point where he was interviewed by the Western journalists. So some of that is some of his weakness.

But he also told reporters who asked him about the accent he seems to have acquired -- remember, he is from the San Francisco Bay area. They asked him about his accent. And he said: Look, for the last six, seven months, I haven't spoken to anyone in American, standard American English. I have been speaking entirely Arabic. And that is why my language has been affected. My accent has been affected by that.

BLITZER: All right, Joie Chen, thanks for the explanation.

And let's get a little bit more on this now. Joining us here in Washington to talk about why an American would join and fight for the Taliban is Rob Sobhani. He is a professor at Georgetown University.

Rob, the Taliban -- and al Qaeda, for that matter -- they have recruited a lot of people from around the world. How did they do that?

ROB SOBHANI, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY: I think the case of Walker is probably an isolated incident. However, it does indicate a larger problem, which is Pakistan, which are the seminaries. The Taliban recruit from the midst of these young idealists who go to Pakistan for reasons of joining Islam, joining a cause. And they end up on the wrong side of the issue.

And I think this is the symptom of a broader problem, which is the recruitment by the Taliban in Pakistan.

BLITZER: At these madrasas.

SOBHANI: Absolutely, these seminaries.

BLITZER: As they're called.

And parents think that they may have been brainwashed. There may be one or two other Americans that we discover were recruited by the Taliban as well. How do they go through this process? Somebody is ideologically committed to Islam. They wind up in one of these madrasas, these seminaries. What happens?

SOBHANI: I think what happens is that, in the case of this young man, he goes to Yemen, becomes immersed in the culture, in the language without any background, with any historical background. Then he ends up in Pakistan under the influence of these clergy. And that's where the recruitment happens, really, under the intense training propaganda of the clergy in these seminaries.

And that's where the transfer happens all of a sudden, a kid from San Francisco to a Taliban fighter. And, by the way, it seems like he spent most of his time with Arabs, because he said he has been speaking Arabic, which tells me that he was among a group of people in the Taliban who are Arabs actually, not Afghans.

BLITZER: So they basically find some of these kids who are maybe idealistic, maybe committed to Islam, and then they go ahead and try to convert them, to a certain degree, to become fighters.

SOBHANI: Precisely. Precisely.

BLITZER: But it's not that unusual. It may be unusual for Americans. But based on our reporting -- I was in Pakistan a year ago -- there's people coming over there from all over the world.

SOBHANI: You see that happen in the West Bank in Gaza. Young men are taken into by Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad. The same thing happens in Pakistan. Anywhere where Islam, where religion is taken to its extreme, it becomes a force for recruitment. And that is the danger of radical Islam. And that is the danger, by the way, of clergy running amok in places like Pakistan, like the West Bank, like the Gaza Strip. It's a misinterpretation of Islam. It's an abuse of Islam.

And that is why, really, it goes to a fundamental problem of Islam being held hostage.

BLITZER: We have got to go, but, as you know, the Saudis have funded a lot of those madrasas. We'll save that stuff for another day.

Rob Sobhani of Georgetown University, thank you very much.

John Walker's father, Frank Lindh, will be a special guest tonight on "LARRY KING LIVE." That's at 9:00 Eastern, 6:00 Pacific. You won't want to miss it.

Let's go now to New York and get a preview of "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE." That begins at the top the hour. You won't want to miss that as well -- Lou, tell us why.

LOU DOBBS, "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE": OK, Wolf, with that assignment, I'll proceed.

Israel, as you have been reporting, retaliating for the deadly terrorist bombings over the weekend. We will have a live report for you from Jerusalem. We will also be joined by former National Security Adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski. We'll also be talking about the events in Afghanistan and these latest threats to United States interests here and abroad.

Enron filing the largest bankruptcy in corporate history: How will this affect the energy industry? I will be talking to the chairman and CEO of the Williams Company -- all of that and more coming up at the top of the hour. So please join us.

How did I do, Wolf?

BLITZER: You did great. I am going to definitely watch the show, Lou, as I do every night. Thank you very much.

We're going to take a quick break. When we come back, a late update: what is happening on the ground in Israel right now.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: CNN has just confirmed that Israeli forces have moved against the position at the Gaza City International Airport in Gaza. Israeli thanks are involved in this operation -- the Gaza airport, of course, controlled by the Palestinian Authority. We are monitoring this story. We will have much more information as it becomes available.

In the meantime, I'll be back in one hour with the CNN "War Room" discussion of how the conflict between the Israelis and the Palestinians affects the anti-terror coalition -- among my guests: the former Pentagon official Richard Perle.

I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. CNN's coverage of America's new war continue with "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE." That begins right now.

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