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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports
Did The U.S. Get To Osama Bin Laden's Lieutenant?; What Would Happen if Terrorists Detonated a Dirty Bomb?; Is a Texas-based Charity Linked to Middle East Terrorism?
Aired December 04, 2001 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Today on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS: "America Strikes Back."
Did the U.S. get to Osama bin Laden's lieutenant?
The clash Osama bin Laden tried to prevent, and signs anti- Taliban fighters did not listen.
Assessing the fallout: What would happen if terrorists detonated a dirty bomb?
Is a Texas-based charity linked to Middle East terrorism?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Money raised by the Holy Land foundation is also used by Hamas to recruit suicide bombers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: As Israel retaliates for suicide bombings, we'll hear from an embattled Yasser Arafat.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
YASSER ARAFAT, PALESTINIAN CHAIRMAN: I am giving 100 percent of my efforts.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: We'll get reports from abroad and the home front, as "America Strikes Back."
Hello from Washington. The co-founder of al Qaeda may not be operating at 100 percent today. An anti-Taliban commander tells CNN Ayman al-Zawahiri is wounded, after a U.S. airstrike in Afghanistan. We must mention the Pentagon says it cannot confirm this information. But if there is truth to the report, it will affect Osama bin Laden. In a moment, we'll discuss why.
First, let's go to Joie Chen in Atlanta for a quick check of the latest developments -- Joie.
JOIE CHEN, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks, Wolf.
Just a short time ago, President Bush told the people of Florida that he sympathizes with those hard hit by the nation's sagging economy. Mr. Bush took the stage at a town hall meeting in Orlando. Tourism, a key industry in the state, has been hard hit by the September terror attacks. Mr. Bush said he would help the state, in part by working to get Congress to pass an economic stimulus plan.
The Bush administration today froze the assets of the Texas-based Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development. Now, U.S. officials say the foundation has raised millions of dollars for Hamas, the Palestinian group Washington says is a terrorist organization. The Holy Land Foundation, though, calls the action a smear campaign against Muslims.
For the second straight day, Israeli warplanes carried out airstrikes in Gaza and the West Bank. At least three Palestinians were killed, 120 wounded. One building hit was just yards from the building where Yasser Arafat was working. He was not hurt. The air attacks followed weekend suicide bombings that killed 25 Israelis.
Hundreds of Afghan opposition fighters today reportedly skirmished with al Qaeda forces in the foothills of the Tora Bora mountains. That eastern mountain range is where Osama bin Laden and some of his top followers may be holed up. The 2,000 anti-Taliban fighters reportedly are preparing to attack al Qaeda and Taliban forces in those mountains.
There are unconfirmed reports that bin Laden's chief deputy was wounded in U.S. airstrikes on the Tora Bora mountains. Ayman al- Zawahiri is an Egyptian exile, who is a co-founder of the al Qaeda terror network -- is believed to be holed up in the Tora Bora mountains with bin Laden and other al Qaeda and Taliban officials.
Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld says he doesn't yet know what will happen to John Walker, the man who says is an American and a Taliban fighter. Walker is now in the custody of U.S. forces and is receiving medical treatment. Walker's father defended his 20-year-old son today in an interview with CNN.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FRANK LINDH, JOHN WALKER'S FATHER: I don't think my son has done anything wrong, Paula. I think he used bad judgment in going to Afghanistan, but he is not a traitor.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHEN: And we'll continue to follow developments here in the CNN newsroom. Now let's back to Washington, and to Wolf there -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Thank you very much, Joie.
In what could signal a major turn in the war in Afghanistan, anti-Taliban fighters are said to be gearing up for an attack on al Qaeda and Taliban forces in the eastern Tora Bora mountains. That's where U.S. officials say Osama bin Laden and other al Qaeda and Taliban leaders may be hiding.
CNN's Brent Sadler is in Jalalabad, Afghanistan, with details.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRENT SADLER, CNN, JALALABAD, AFGHANISTAN: As American warplanes continue to pound suspected al Qaeda hiding places in the Tora Bora mountain range south of Jalalabad, there's been an important new development on the ground here.
The region's security chief, Hazrat Ali, a key member of the eastern alliance, says his mujahedeen fighters engaged a group of al Qaeda terrorists in a brief fire fight at the base of Tora Bora -- the first reported hostilities between the two sides since sustained U.S. airstrikes in eastern Afghanistan began last week.
It was said to be a brief skirmish lasting several minutes. No casualties were reported. Al Qaeda gunmen were said to have fled to higher ground, enabling the mujahedeen, they say, to capture a tank. The mujahedeen chief says that U.S. bombs fell close to his forces during the al Qaeda fire fight, but his men suffered no injuries.
There's been no apparent let-up in U.S. air activity by heavy bombers against a suspect caves and tunnels hidden within the rocks of Tora Bora. A report that Osama bin Laden's right-hand man, Ayman al- Zawahiri, might have been injured in the latest attacks, could not be confirmed by Hazrat Ali, Jalalabad's security chief.
In another development, workers began repairing the runway at Jalalabad airport, damaged in the opening phase of the war. Craters were being filled, making the airstrip usable within days for possible humanitarian relief or military activity.
A reported force of some 1,500 mujahedeen fighters has been sent to Tora Bora to take on al Qaeda or Taliban extremists -- an operation, say commanders here, which will require the use of rocket launchers and artillery, at the very least.
Brent Sadler, CNN, Jalalabad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: CNN national security correspondent David Ensor reports U.S. officials have no information whether bin Laden deputy Ayman al- Zawahiri was injured by an American bomb. Also, a CIA official tells Ensor CIA chief George Tenet did not ask Pakistan for technical assistance for an assault on an Afghan mountain base where bin Laden is suspected of hiding. This disputes a "New York Times" report earlier today.
If reports are confirmed that Osama bin Laden's right-hand man has been wounded or killed, it would certainly be another major setback for the terrorist network. Joining us now to talk more about Ayman al-Zawahiri is David Isby of "Jane's Intelligence Review."
David, thank you so much for joining us.
DAVID ISBY, "JANE'S INTELLIGENCE REVIEW": And let's show our viewers who exactly Ayman al-Zawahiri is. We have a picture that I want to put up on our screen. First, Osama bin Laden, right here. Right next to him, literally alongside, Ayman al-Zawahiri. We've been reporting he may have been injured.
Mohammed Atef, this man over here, he's dead by all accounts. Abu Raeff (ph), still alive. What would that mean, if Ayman al- Zawahiri is now injured?
ISBY: Well, Zawahiri, or Dr. Death, is certainly one of the key players. He has been called the brains of al Qaeda. And this isn't to say that, without him bin Laden is not competent, but he is an intellectual. He's a medical doctor, hence his nickname. He has also been the Islamic ideologue of the group. He was instrumental in their 1998 fatwah.
And indeed, they seem to be actually good friends. They're both rich boys who have gone to Afghanistan to do jihad. So I think they actually even like each other.
BLITZER: And we're reporting that he may be, Ayman al-Zawahiri, up in this area. Osama bin Laden might be up there, around Tora Bora, just south of Jalalabad in the northeastern corner of Afghanistan -- an area where U.S. officials, Pentagon officials acknowledge they don't have much control up there.
ISBY: No one really does. Certainly, these are very high mountains. They are next to the Hindu Kush, themselves. They're some of the tallest mountains in Afghanistan. And complicating it for the U.S., there is also a chance of a bolt hole, out towards Pakistan, or further south into Afghanistan, towards Paktia and Lowgar province.
So not only do you have to get them, you have to watch for an escape.
BLITZER: And, as far as an escape is concerned, Ayman al- Zawahiri, he is an Arab. He doesn't necessarily speak the local languages, the dialects that presumably might help some other Taliban or al Qaeda figures.
ISBY: No, he doesn't. He speaks excellent English and French, but he doesn't speak any of the languages of Afghanistan. Neither does bin Laden. So if either was going to escape, they need Afghan friends to execute an E&E plan, as they say in the trade.
BLITZER: E&E being...
ISBY: Escape and evasion, which -- any good terrorist mastermind isn't keen on becoming a martyr, should have an E&E plan.
BLITZER: Even though it looks like the noose is tightening, the game is by no means over, is it? ISBY: No, the game is actually only just beginning, and it's getting more interesting. And we have to see, even so, is it going to a besieged bin Laden, a fugitive bin Laden, or martyred bin Laden -- which is the most dangerous.
BLITZER: David Isby of "Jane's Intelligence Review," thanks for joining us.
ISBY: You're welcome.
BLITZER: Turning now to the hunt for Osama bin Laden, directly. The defense secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, today said he believes bin Laden is still in Afghanistan. CNN military affairs correspondent Jamie McIntyre is at the Pentagon. He joins us now with details of that and other developments in this war -- Jamie.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, right now it's a war on two fronts, as simply a Taliban front and al Qaeda front. Taking the first one first, the focus is Kandahar for the Taliban, a situation the Pentagon describes as "complicated." But the Pentagon again expressed confidence today that the Taliban and al Qaeda will be driven from Kandahar. The choice, according to Donald Rumsfeld, is theirs, as to how it happens.
Meanwhile, some 1,200 Marines are operating from their base, about 50 miles -- 55 miles or so southwest of Kandahar. The Marines have turned this desert airstrip into a fortified base. And they have begun patrols that are essentially aimed at preventing any Taliban from fleeing Kandahar, and any resupply efforts, getting more supplies into the city, as the U.S. believes that Mullah Omar and the Taliban leadership are holed up there in Kandahar.
Again, Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld indicating that the U.S. will rely on opposition groups to mount that final assault, and that the Marines would not be taking part directly in that combat.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: In Kandahar, the hope remains that Taliban and al Qaeda forces will surrender. But we have reason to believe that Omar may have instructed his forces to continue fighting, which of course, is putting the civilian population in Kandahar and that region at risk. Indeed, hiding in the city, the Taliban are in effect using the civilian population of Kandahar as shields.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MCINTYRE: As for Osama bin Laden, Rumsfeld again expressed the belief that he remains in Afghanistan. The U.S. believes he is in the eastern part, south of Jalalabad, in that corridor between -- up to the Khyber Pass, near Tora Bora.
Defense Secretary Rumsfeld, asked today if he had any hard evidence that Osama bin Laden was there, he said simply that they couldn't say where he was until they knew where he was. And he allowed it was possible that bin Laden could slip through the porous borders of Afghanistan, but he said if he flees, we'll simply pursue him wherever he flees -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Jamie, what did you learn today about John Walker, the American Taliban fighter who was injured and captured, of course, by U.S. troops, and perhaps other Americans who may have been associated directly with the Taliban?
MCINTYRE: Well, the reports at the Pentagon yesterday, that they were up to three Americans, including John Walker, who apparently had been captured by Alliance forces after fighting with the Taliban. The reports are very sketchy about the other two.
As for Walker, he is under the control of the U.S. military. And there are discussions under way about turning him over to the Justice Department and whether or not he might be charged with treason, which is an offense outlined in the Constitution -- that would include giving aid and comfort to an enemy of the United States. Or perhaps some lesser offense, or whether he would in fact be charged with anything. That will be something for civilian authorities to decide. But he remains under military control.
As for those other prisoners, the reports are that there were, among 3,000 prisoners in a camp in Shebegan, which is just west of Mazar-e Sharif, and that they may have been in that large group of prisoners. But the U.S. has no confirmation of that at this point -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon, thank you very much.
And this note in tonight's "CROSSFIRE": Should Osama bin Laden be "TIME" magazine's man of the year? That debate tonight, 7:30 p.m. Eastern, 4:30 Pacific.
President Bush, meanwhile, got out of Washington today for a town meeting in Florida. The questions he heard in Orlando had far less to do with the war in Afghanistan than the state of the U.S. economy. Our senior White House correspondent, John King, followed Mr. Bush to Orlando, and he joins us now live -- John.
JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, this, the first town hall of the Bush presidency, obviously comes at a key point in the war against terrorism. Tensions in the Middle East, as you know.
And the president's main goal was to come here to reassure the citizens of the Orlando area, the state of Florida and indeed, the country, that he, as president, and that Washington was doing all it could to help the travel and tourism industry, and the overall U.S. economy.
But, in a wide range of discussions that went on for more than an hour, the president was asked about the war in Afghanistan. He said the United States military was making good progress, "tightening the noose," his words, on Osama bin Laden. And Mr. Bush was also asked by one gentleman in the audience what the United States was doing to stand by Israel at this moment of great tension and violence between the Israelis and the Palestinians. Mr. Bush recalled his Sunday meeting at the White House with the Israeli prime minister, Ariel Sharon. And he made clear, as Israel continues its retaliations against the Palestinians, that he places the burden squarely on the shoulders of the Palestinian leader, Yasser Arafat.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It is incumbent upon Mr. Arafat now to respond forcefully to route out those who killed. It is incumbent upon other friends and allies of ours around the world to help bring those terrorists to justice, if we want peace in the Middle East, which I do. Which I do.
We've got to bring the terrorists to justice.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Back in Washington, there's quite a controversy over the president's option of using secret military tribunals to try any suspected terrorists rounded up by the United States overseas: that evidence could be presented in secret in military, a 2/3 vote, all that is necessary to convict. Some civil libertarians say that's not fair. Some Democrats have objected as well.
But the crowd came to its feet here in Orlando when the president explained why he thinks he needs the powers to have those tribunals.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: And let me give you one example of why it may be necessary, why it may be necessary to use such a tribunal. What happens if, in the course of this war, that we apprehend or capture an enemy, and we want to bring him to justice? In the course of bringing him to justice, what if the information necessary to bring him to justice would compromise our capacity to keep America safe?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Now, Mr. Bush again reassuring folks here he would do all he could to help on the economic front, urging Congress to quickly pass a stimulus bill. The president, at this moment, about to leave Orlando to make his way back to Washington, again, to pressure the Congress, a partisan debate between the administration, the Democrats and Republicans, over just what should be in an economic stimulus bill.
Mr. Bush telling his audience here that one way they United States can improve its security against future terrorist threats is to have a strong economy. He promises to do his part. It's a struggle between the administration and the Congress right now -- Wolf.
BLITZER: I notice also, John, as you did, a little boy asking the president about the first time he heard about that plane going into the World Trade Center. He also said, "I haven't regretted one thing that I decided. I stand by every decision that I made." He got pretty emotional in discussing some of those early moments.
KING: He did, indeed. He said at first -- remember, Mr. Bush served in the Air National Guard. He is a former pilot. He said when he was told -- and he was here, in Sarasota, Florida, not far from Orlando -- he said when he was told that first plane hit the World Trade Center, he thought it was a horrible accident, some form of terrible mistake by the pilot of that plane.
Then he recalled his chief of staff, Andy Card, coming into the school room and saying, "Mr. President, America is under attack." A second plane had hit the World Trade Center. The president at that moment said he realized it was terrorism, realized it would be his job to rally the country to respond. And Mr. Bush, using very strong words, said he knew from that very moment that once they found out who was responsible -- quote -- "there would be hell to pay" -- Wolf.
BLITZER: And, John, we also have some video. At one moment, the president looked like he was in a little campaign mode, a political mode. Look at this. Kissing some young kids over there, getting some hugs, also for some young kids. He was pretty excited about all of that. He said he was happy to be in Florida.
And, John, I'm sure he was quite happy. His aides, I take it, were pretty happy with his performance, over an hour at that town meeting, as well, weren't they?
KING: Aides quite happy with it. The president noted he was happy to get out of Washington. And I'll add this little personal reflection -- it's not bad for all of us to get out of Washington every now and then. The president was clearly enjoying himself. We can't stay. We've got to come home.
BLITZER: All right, I'll try to get out of Washington myself a little bit, John. Thanks so much.
And before he left today for Florida, the president, while still at the White House, announced he's freezing the assets of an Islamic organization based in Texas, for alleged links to the militant group Hamas. Among other attacks, Hamas has claimed responsibility for the deadly bomb explosions in Jerusalem and Haifa over the weekend.
This morning, the FBI raided four branches of the Holy Land Foundation, including its Richardson, Texas headquarters. The Bush administration says the group raises money that helps Hamas train suicide bombers and support their families. The attorney general says that will not be allowed on U.S. soil.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: We signal that the United States of America will not be used as a staging ground for the financing of those groups that violently oppose peace as a solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. We won't tolerate it any more than we will tolerate the financing of groups that, on September 11, attacked our homeland.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Also raided today were three other branches of the Holy Land Foundation, in San Diego, in Patterson, New Jersey and in Bridge View, Illinois. The group is disputing the charges against it and says today's action is part of a smear campaign against Muslims.
Joining me now for more about this latest development, Jimmy Gurule. He's an official of the U.S. Treasury Department. Mr. Gurule, thanks so much for joining us.
JIMMY GURULE, UNDER SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY: My pleasure.
BLITZER: What about that suggestion, that this is simply a smear of an Islamic charitable organization trying to help poor people in the West Bank and Gaza?
GURULE: It's false. That statement is false. The Department of the Treasury has strong and compelling evidence that the Holy Land Foundation is being used as a front by Hamas to raise money to support terrorist activities. And as you stated, Hamas is a violent terrorist organization that is committed to the violent overthrow of Israel, and has accepted responsibility for the terrorist attacks that took place in Israel over the weekend.
BLITZER: Mr. Gurule, I want you to listen to what one of the organizers, one of the leaders of this Holy Land Foundation said, in response to today's development. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
QUESTION: Are you not convinced that the FBI has enough evidence?
SHUKRI ABU BAKER, CEO, HOLY LAND FOUNDATION: No.
QUESTION: Why is that?
BAKER: They could have taken us to court if they had that evidence. They didn't need to freeze our assets. They did not need an executive, presidential order. They were investigating the Holy Land Foundation since the mid-'90s. What evidence did they show today? The president sounded more like he was coached. He didn't know what he was talking about.
QUESTION: Are you convinced it's a smear campaign?
BAKER: Absolutely. Absolutely.
QUESTION: Don't you think if the president felt that he had enough evidence -- to go after a charity organization isn't smart politics.
BAKER: I think Sharon had more leverage on our policies than U.S. Constitution. I think it was the Sharon-Bush meeting. (END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Two points he makes: first, what evidence, direct evidence do you have that this organization is a front for Hamas?
GURULE: We have strong and credible evidence. First of all, the Holy Land Foundation has been on the radar screen of law enforcement for the last several years. So this isn't something that was investigated overnight. It is something that's been under investigation for a serious period of time.
We have evidence from reliable sources that this organization is used as a fund-raising, as a front for raising money. This money is going to fund schools that encourage their children to participate in terrorist acts directed at the state of Israel. We stand by our ruling.
If this individual wants to open up the books of the Holy Land Foundation, have us examine them to try to disprove the allegations that we stand by, we welcome that opportunity.
BLITZER: Are you going to make that evidence public?
GURULE: We are not going to make it public. And this is an ongoing investigation. This organization is also subject to a criminal investigation by the Department of Justice. And we certainly wouldn't disclose any information that would jeopardize this ongoing criminal effort.
BLITZER: The other point he makes is that this is a gift, in effect, that President Bush gave the Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, coming, as it does, only a day or two after Sharon's meeting with the president of the White House.
GURULE: No, as I stated before, the Holy Land Foundation has been the subject of an ongoing criminal investigation for a long period of time. We have the evidence, we stand by the evidence. This was the right thing to do. The only thing that has transpired, as a result of the terrorist activities of this weekend, is the sense of urgency to move on this organization as quickly and expeditiously as possible.
BLITZER: Jimmy Gurule, under secretary of the Treasury, thanks so much for joining us from the north lawn of the White House.
GURULE: You're welcome, Wolf.
BLITZER: Thank you. And Israel resumed its attacks on Palestinian targets today, sending Yasser Arafat in search of shelter. We'll hear from him.
We'll also get a live update from Jerusalem, and we'll discuss Arafat's future, with the former national security adviser, Samuel Berger -- all of that, when we come back.
In addition, how al Qaeda could set off its plans for a so-called dirty radiation bomb. And later, the tightest security ever for a shuttle launch. The countdown is on for the launch, in less than 25 minutes. You'll see it right here. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back. Aides to Yasser Arafat say the Palestinian leader was taken to an underground shelter today, just before Israeli rockets landed nearby. The rockets hit a security station about 50 yards from Arafat's office in the West Bank city of Ramallah.
Israel says Arafat was not a target. This is the second straight day of Israeli attacks, after the suicide bombings that killed more than two dozen people in two Israeli cities over the weekend.
In an exclusive interview today, Arafat was asked about the Israeli demand that he thwart attacks against Israel launched from Palestinian territory.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARAFAT: President Bush says to stop the attack of bin Laden. You have the biggest power (UNINTELLIGIBLE). I am doing 100 percent of my effort. But no one all over the world can give hundred percent.
QUESTION: What can you tell...
ARAFAT: Including President Bush, and all the American -- the whole -- the biggest power of the world haven't the ability to stop what have been done.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Joining us now for a U.S. perspective on what's occurring in the Middle East, the former national security adviser, Samuel Berger. He served under President Clinton.
Mr. Berger, thanks for joining us. Is it too late for Yasser Arafat to get the job done and, in effect, convince the Israelis and the United States that he's a real partner in a peace process?
SAMUEL BERGER, FMR. NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Well, time is certainly running out. Chairman Arafat is truly, Wolf, between a rock and a hard place. The rock of truly crushing the extremist groups, Hamas. The hard place is facing an all-out assault against the Palestinian Authority by the government of Israel.
And I hope, for the sake of the Palestinian people and for the United States, that he tries to lift that rock.
BLITZER: You may not know this, but CNN has just learned that the chairman of the House International Relations Committee, Henry Hyde, and the ranking Democrat, Tom Lantos of California, say they're going to introduce what they call a non-binding resolution that would bar the U.S. -- that would say the United States should sever its relations with the Palestinian Authority, unless Arafat immediately takes the steps, arrests Hamas, Islamic jihad, suspected terrorists, and keeps them in jail.
BERGER: Well, in all due respect to the House at this point, I think that's the least of Mr. Arafat's problems. Essentially, unless, over the next few days, he does what he did in '96, when four terrorist bombs went off in Jerusalem and he went after Hamas and Pidge in an absolutely serious and intense way and crushed them, then I think he's going to face the consequences from Israel, whatever the resolutions of the House of Representatives might say.
BLITZER: So do you think that, realistically, this is a moment when the Israelis might decide, in effect -- whether or not literally, but in effect to take out Yasser Arafat?
BERGER: I think that's not the best outcome here. I think the best outcome here is for Arafat to take the actions that so far he's equivocated on taking. It will not be a good scenario here, for the future, if Israel moves in, essentially crushes the Palestinian Authority, has to reoccupy this region. That's a prescription for long-term turmoil.
But I think it is what we are likely to see, in the absence here in the next several days, of more serious action by Arafat than we have seen up until now.
BLITZER: But you heard in the interview that he gave Rula Amin, our reporter in Gaza -- he says he is doing 100 percent of everything he can to thwart terrorist attacks against Israel.
BERGER: Well, I think clearly his capacity is diminished from what it was, say, back in '96. But I think that he has more authority than he has exercised, but less than he'll have a week from now.
BLITZER: I noticed that the U.S. special envoy, the retired Marine Corps general, Anthony Zinni, President Bush's envoy, is still in the area. I guess he is trying to do whatever he can to avoid the scenario from unfolding that you say could develop, namely an all-out war, if you will.
BERGER: I think it is very important for General Zinni to stay in the region. I think it is important for the United States, quietly, to be both pressing Arafat to take those actions and, if those actions begin to unfold, to urge the Israelis to give Arafat the time then to carry them out.
At the same time, I think it is time for the Arab countries to provide leadership here and provide some both cover for and support for Arafat. We're at a crossroads here, Wolf. And the consequences here are very serious, not only in the region, but for the United States, because, unlike Afghanistan, where, if we get bin Laden and we get the Taliban leadership, which I believe we will, and there is, unfortunately, chaos in Afghanistan, that really is not of fundamental strategic importance to the United States.
If there is chaos in the West Bank and the Middle East, that is of fundamental strategic importance to the United States.
BLITZER: All right, Samuel Berger, the former national security adviser under President Clinton, thanks for joining us.
BERGER: Good to be here.
BLITZER: Thank you.
And let's go now live to Jerusalem. Our bureau chief, Mike Hanna, is standing by.
Mike, first of all, give us a sense of the mood in the Israeli government, in the Israeli Cabinet. I take it there is some disagreement between the foreign minister, Shimon Peres, and the prime minister, Ariel Sharon.
MIKE HANNA, CNN JERUSALEM BUREAU CHIEF: Yes.
Well, there was a lengthy Cabinet meeting last night, Wolf, at which the Cabinet, the full Cabinet, discussed what its position should be in relation to the Palestinian Authority. Now, by all accounts, there was intense argument during that meeting. It ended with a vote. And the vote from the Cabinet was that the Palestinian Authority is a terrorist entity.
But Labor Party members of the Cabinet refused to take part in the vote, headed by the foreign minister, Shimon Peres. So, certainly, this isn't an issue we have heard the end of. Shimon Peres insists that the Palestinian Authority is a potential negotiating partner, in fact, the only potential negotiating partner. Ariel Sharon and other members in the Cabinet do not feel the same way, according to that resolution they met.
So certainly there are sharp divisions within the Sharon coalition government, which he is going to have to deal with in the days ahead, Wolf.
BLITZER: I know 24 hours ago we were talking about the Israeli attack against the Gaza International Airport. Tell us about the Israeli attacks, the Israeli strikes today.
HANNA: Well, there were a number of strikes in Palestinian territories. One was in Gaza City, where Israeli fighter aircraft struck at offices of the Palestinian preventative security. And there were a number of Palestinians injured in that attack. And at least three Palestinians were killed.
Among those killed was a 15-year-old schoolboy who Palestinians said was returning from school at the time the aircraft were flying overhead -- this denied, incidentally, by the Israeli defense force, which says that there were no schoolchildren in the vicinity of that attack.
In Ramallah, there was another Israeli fighter aircraft attack, this on the police station which was right next to a building occupied by the Palestinian Authority leader, Yasser Arafat. Mr. Arafat was reportedly taken to a bunker beneath the building and was uninjured. But it was certainly the closest that an Israeli military operation has come to the Palestinian leader in 14 months of ongoing conflict, and this in itself a signal that Israel says it is serious about bringing home to Yasser Arafat the consequences should he not clamp down on militants within Palestinian territories.
He says he is trying to, but these operations in particular make his task all the more difficult -- Wolf.
BLITZER: OK, Mike Hanna in Jerusalem, thank you very much for that update.
And we will have much more on the Middle East impact on the war in Afghanistan tonight, 7:00 p.m. Eastern, here in the CNN "War Room." The former secretary of state, Lawrence Eagleburger, will be among my guests. You can participate, by the way, by going to my Web site, CNN.com/wolf. Click on the "Send Questions" icon. We will try to get to as many of those questions as we possibly can. You can also, by the way, read my online daily column, today about the future of Yasser Arafat -- once again, CNN.com/wolf.
They are compact and can be concealed. When we return, the dirty bomb danger: How real of a threat is it?
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BLITZER: We are inside eight minutes from the launch of the space shuttle Endeavour. You are looking at live pictures mission control -- the space shuttle expected to take off within about eight minutes, although we are being told weather conditions have deteriorated within the past few minutes. We will bring it all of this to you live when it happens. Our Miles O'Brien is on the scene, as he always is.
Meanwhile, U.S. intelligence officials are looking at the possibility that al Qaeda terrorists could possess so-called dirty bombs.
CNN's Joie Chen once again joins me from our CNN Map Room to examine that risk -- Joie.
CHEN: Wolf, what people are talking about, a dirty bomb or a suitcase bomb, it is not a nuclear weapon, per se, although it could have some radioactive element. It is the sort of thing that has been conjured up before. But some reporting out now suggests that Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda may be closer to developing one than had been thought.
Now, how would they get the nuclear material for it? "The Times of London" reports that bin Laden and company may have gotten a source -- some from a source over in Pakistan. Others suspect, though, that there could be supplies of raw nuclear material available through illegitimate sources, in the former Soviet republics, quite possibly Turkmenistan here, the Ukraine up in the far corner, Kazakstan, or in Russia.
Now, before we go any further here, we do need to emphasize that there is no hard evidence that al Qaeda or any terrorist group, for that matter, has built a bomb like this, or even has the capability to do so. The U.S. government believes, though, based on interviews with captured al Qaeda members and inspection of their former facilities in Afghanistan, that bin Laden may have made progress in his acknowledged quest for weapons of mass destruction.
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DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: There is intelligence information floating around the world in various countries of various types that reflect the fact that the al Qaeda organization has an interest in weapons of mass destruction, chemical, biological, radiation, as well as nuclear. We -- I do not know of certain knowledge, precisely what kinds of capabilities he may have actually developed and weaponized and have available to him.
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CHEN: Now, several documents relating to the construction of chemical and biological weapons were recovered from a location used by al Qaeda in Kabul recently. Now U.S. officials have said that it could have come from common sources, including perhaps the Internet.
But CNN has learned of a meeting in which an associate of bin Laden's waved a canister which allegedly contained nuclear material as proof of al Qaeda's progress in trying to build one of these so-called dirty bombs.
So exactly what is a dirty bomb? And why should we be concerned about it? Well, simply put, a dirty bomb uses conventional explosives to spread radioactive material across a wide area. It is not a nuclear explosion, but it would use nuclear material, something like spent fuel rods from a nuclear reactor, to create a large area of potentially deadly radioactivity.
Russia and Pakistan are most often mentioned as sources of this kind of material. In fact, Moscow reports that terrorists very recently tried and failed twice to break into top secret nuclear storage facilities. The United States is certainly on the alert in all this. You will recall that just yesterday, the homeland security director, Tom Ridge, issued another national alert concerning potential terrorist attacks. But he said that it was not specifically related to reports of al Qaeda's quest for a so-called dirty bomb.
This morning on CNN, he underlined that point.
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TOM RIDGE, HOMELAND SECURITY DIRECTOR: We have to be prepared for all eventualities, but that, the report that you relate to in "The Washington Post," has absolutely nothing to do with our going on alert again, and just reminding Americans, that since September 11, there have been three occasions when the analyst within our intelligence community taken a look at information and say, this is something serious, we have to remind the public, and coupled with the convergence of several important religious observations, of Ramadan and Hanukkah and Christmas. And based on that information, we went public. (END VIDEO CLIP)
CHEN: Another thing to bear in mind here: Experts do advise that a dirty bomb might not kill any more people than a conventional explosion, if anyone was killed at all. But the psychological impact of a radioactive device might actually serve the terrorists' end, Wolf, which is, after all, to terrify people.
BLITZER: Joie Chen, thank you very much for all that information.
I want to pursue it a little bit further. How real is the risk of a dirty bomb being used in the United States? And how much damage would it cause?
To shed some further light on that, we're joined now by the Harvard professor, Graham Allison. He joins us live from Boston. He's a former assistant secretary of defense, by the way, for policy and plans.
So, let me ask you that question: How realistic is this concern, Professor Allison?
GRAHAM ALLISON, PROFESSOR, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: Well, I think, unfortunately, very realistic.
I think you can quite easily imagine a radioactive bomb being used. I think the report that Joie gave was on target in terms of the consequences, which would be more psychological than in terms of instant deaths.
BLITZER: But people in the immediate area presumably would be exposed to a lot of radiation that could cause an enormous amount of problems for them, couldn't it?
ALLISON: Well, I think, if we looked at the reactions to Three Mile Island or Chernobyl, when people are exposed to radiation -- which we know has very big negative effects for their long-term effects. Their chance of getting cancer, leukemia and other diseases increases significantly, and therefore, their lives are shortened. They just not killed instantly -- that people are terrified and tend to run away.
BLITZER: How does the U.S. prepare itself, defend itself against this potential threat of a dirty bomb?
ALLISON: I think the list of things to do is very similar to the list of things to do in trying to prevent a nuclear bomb, namely to try to control all the materials at the source to the best of our ability, to persuade the Russians and the Pakistanis and others that materials and weapons ought to be secured in every way they physically and technically can, and to involve ourselves very actively in that process.
BLITZER: I know you have spent a lot of time studying this whole issue of what we used to call loose nukes, the former Soviet Union scientists, perhaps unemployed, looking for work. This is still -- even though it's still well over a decade since the end, the collapse of the Soviet Union, this is still a huge issue out there, isn't it?
ALLISON: Well, it is almost impossible to believe, but after September 11, we know that we face a serious enemy. We know that bin Laden killed thousands of people. We believe that he would kill tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands if he had the capability. And the thing to worry, in which he would do the most damage, would be a small nuclear device, which could kill literally hundred of thousands of people instantaneously.
BLITZER: All right, Professor Graham Allison, I want to thank you very much for joining us. Always good to have your insight.
Right now, I want to go back to Miles O'Brien. He is standing by the space shuttle Endeavour, set to take off in the next few minutes.
Miles, give us the latest. What is going on?
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN SPACE CORRESPONDENT: The latest, Wolf, is that there will not be a shuttle launch tonight. NASA launch managers just called a 24-hour scrub.
I have been listening on the scanner to the chief astronaut, Charlie Precourt, as he has been flying in the so-called shuttle training aircraft. It's a modified Gulfstream. He's been flying through the clouds all around the Kennedy Space Center, getting a visual indication as to the situation. The bottom line is, the weather deteriorated very suddenly within the past 15 minutes.
And, as he put it, if we had just had another 15 minutes, we might have had clear enough weather for a launch. So they will rerack things, get the crew back in their quarters. And they will try again in 23 hours and 40 minutes, to be precise. And we will be there for it as well -- Wolf.
BLITZER: How unusual is it to call off this kind of launch only literally a few minutes before it's supposed to take off?
O'BRIEN: Well, what you have to remember, Wolf, is, on these missions where they are trying to intercept and rendezvous with the International Space Station, they have this narrow five-minute window. If they don't launch in that period of time, they don't have enough fuel to catch up with the space station.
Think of a quarterback throwing a football to a receiver. You got to fire that football at just the right time. They have to launch the shuttle at just the right time. And so they don't have a lot of latitude on the weather. There are some missions where they go up and they're not doing a rendezvous, and they can spend a couple of hours waiting for a break in the clouds. In this case, since there is no margin, these sorts of things do happen. There is not a lot NASA can do about it. It's the situation where you can't do much about the weather.
BLITZER: And, Miles, I know you have been reporting about the extraordinary security precautions under way down there in the aftermath of September 11. What can you tell our viewers about that?
O'BRIEN: Well, extraordinary is a good word, Wolf.
There has never been an occasion where a space shuttle rolling out to the launch pad -- or, for that matter, a Saturn V rocket or a Mercury rocket, going back to the very early days of the space program -- has been escorted by fighter jets. But that's what happened this time on this first rollout after September 11. F-15 fighters were overhead. In the meantime, they have greatly augmented their radar capability here, bringing in some portable radar equipment.
And all throughout our time here as we have been waiting for this launch we have seen repeatedly F-15s and F-16s circling overhead, Apache attack helicopters. And earlier today, in fact, one unwitting helicopter pilot, who had just picked up his new Bell 214 helicopter, and was headed up from South Florida on his way ultimately to Washington state, flew right into this restricted zone around us, a 40-mile disk around us, and was greeted by an F-16.
And I can tell you that must have been quite an eye-opener and a wakeup call for him. He was on the ground very shortly, made his apologies, and has quite a story to tell. The Air Force says it will not press charges. They also say it proves, Wolf, that their veil of security is impregnable here.
BLITZER: All right, Miles O'Brien, I'll see you in 24 hours -- the space shuttle Endeavour delayed for 24 hours. That's the headline here: the weather deteriorating very rapidly over the past 15 minutes. We will, of course, have coverage tomorrow at around 5:19 Eastern time.
We will be the right back.
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BLITZER: A successful missile intercept tops today's "Newswire."
The Pentagon says the test took place over the Pacific Ocean. A modified missile was launched from California last night. Minutes later, an interceptor launched from the Marshall Islands hit the target. The Pentagon says it's the third successful intercept.
Federal and local authorities searched former football star O.J. Simpson's home in Florida today. The search was part of Operation X, a two-year investigation into drug distribution and money-laundering. Simpson has not been indicted or arrested in the investigation. O.J. Simpson was acquitted of the 1994 murder of his ex-wife and her friend.
Muhammad Ali once again held the Olympic torch in Atlanta. The boxing legend and Olympic medalist lit the torch for its two-month trip through 80 cities on its way to Salt Lake City, Utah for the Winter Olympic Games. CNN's own Paula Zahn carried the torch for part of the trip through Atlanta.
And let's go to New York now and get a preview of "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE." That begins at the top of the hour -- Lou.
LOU DOBBS, "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE": Indeed, it does. Thanks a lot, Wolf.
U.S. warplanes continue to pound Taliban positions tonight. A key al Qaeda leader has reportedly been killed. And we will have a live report for you from Afghanistan. I will be talking with General David Grange, CNN military analyst. Israel has stepped up it attacks against the Palestinians. We'll have a live report for you on that as well.
And, meanwhile, here in this country, the Bush administration has frozen the assets of the Holy Land Foundation, accused of financing the terrorist organization Hamas. We will have a special report for you on that. And we will have a lot more as well coming right up on "MONEYLINE" at the top of the hour. Please join us.
Until then, I'm Lou Dobbs -- now back to Wolf Blitzer.
BLITZER: Thank you very much, Lou. I will be joining you.
There are efforts, meanwhile, going on to help a victim of war. Even the king of the beasts was affected by the violence in Afghanistan. You won't want to miss this.
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BLITZER: Life has been difficult for many in Afghanistan, including for an African lion at the Kabul Zoo. Marjan lost an eye to a hand grenade and has been stoned by Taliban soldiers. A Texas foundation wants help from the State Department to get food and other aid to the injured animal. That help could include trying to get Marjan moved to another location -- more on the Kabul zoo tonight, 10:00 p.m. Eastern, on "CNN NEWSNIGHT WITH AARON BROWN."
I'll be back in one hour here in the "War Room." Among my guests: the former secretary of state, Lawrence Eagleburger. We'll discuss the impact on the conflict in the Middle East in the war in Afghanistan.
Until then, thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. CNN's coverage of America's new war continues with "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE." That begins right now.
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