Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

Interview with Lawrence Eagleburger, George Joulwan, Paul Bremer

Aired December 04, 2001 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS: THE WAR ROOM: Afghan tribesmen clash with al Qaeda fighters near a suspected mountain hideout. Is Osama bin Laden in the neighborhood? Was his right-hand man caught in a U.S. airstrike?

Heavy U.S. airstrikes and fierce fighting near the Taliban's last stronghold, and what should the U.S. do with an American Taliban fighter? I'll speak live with former secretary of state, Lawrence Eagleburger, former NATO Supreme Commander George Joulwan, and Paul Bremer, who chaired the National Commission on Terrorism, as we go into the WAR ROOM.

Good evening. I'm Wolf Blitzer reporting tonight from Washington.

We're following several major developments, including an alarming report that Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda organization may be close to building a so-called "dirty radiation bomb." But we begin with the war in Afghanistan, and a report that bin Laden's top deputy has been injured in a U.S. airstrike.

There's also stepped fighting in eastern Afghanistan, where bin Laden may be hiding out.

Let's go live straight to the region, that is where CNN's Nic Robertson is standing by at Chiman (ph) , along the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan -- Nic.

ROBERTSON: Wolf, 350 miles north of here is Jalalabad. Around Jalalabad the White Mountains. It is in those mountains where be Tora Bora is. This is a suspected camp of Osama bin Laden and the al Qaeda network. It is true the intense bombing that has been going on there by the U.S.-led bombing campaign in the last few days that Ayman al- Zawahiri, a close associate of Osama bin Laden, often seen in Osama bin Laden's videos along side the al Qaeda leader may be injured.

Those are unconfirmed reports at this time. What we know is local mujahedeen commanders are joining in the search for al Qaeda, for Osama bin Laden on the ground. And just 60 miles away from here, Kandahar City Airport, the key strategic gateway to Kandahar has been under intense bombardment, a battle now into its 5th day for control of the airport. U.S.-led bombstikes reported on the airport throughout day yesterday. Anti-Taliban forces entering part of that airport complex, we understand -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Is there a sense out there, Nic, that the fighting, which seems to he confined now to smaller areas, even though it may be intense, is that the way this war seems to be unfolding?

ROBERTSON: It appears to be centered around key strategic areas. Kandahar, the last stronghold, the bastion of Taliban resistance and support. They do have a lot of popular support there.

Tribal forces are closing in from the north, strategic bridges around the city have been taken out. The airport is the key gateway. Marines, although they may not be involved in a final assault in Kandahar, are some 60 miles away and tribal forces here tell us that in a desperate plea, Mullah Muhammed Omar, the leader of the Taliban, asked those tribal forces to come and fight alongside the Taliban.

But last night tribal leaders told us they were sending more fighters from here inside Pakistan clandestinely across the border into Afghanistan to join that fight. Perhaps that is an indication now of how things stand for the Taliban, that they are tying to call on their former comrades in arms among these tribal forces to help them out.

BLITZER: Nic Robertson, thank you very much. And this note, Nic will have much more at the top of the hour in his SPECIAL REPORT, LIVE FROM AFGHANISTAN.

CNN confirmed that a member of the U.S. special forces has been wounded in Afghanistan. Officials say the soldier was hurt while helping opposition troops around Kandahar. It is unclear if the wound was the result of an accident, friendly fire, or hostile action.

The injury is not considered life threatening and the soldier has been evacuated out of Afghanistan.

U.S. intelligence meanwhile, says Osama bin Laden and his al Qaeda organization have a strong interest in getting their hands on a nuclear weapons and some of the material needed to build nuclear weapons. It may have been developing a so-called "dirty bomb."

CNN national security correspondent David Ensor explains.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID ENSOR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): At a meeting of senior lieutenants of Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan within the past year, U.S. intelligence officials say, one person held up a cylinder claiming it contained highly radio active material. He waved it around as proof of al Qaeda's program towards building a radiological device often referred to as a "dirty bomb."

A dirty bomb is a crude device made by wrapping highly radio active material, such as spent nuclear fuel rods, around a conventional explosive like TNT. The radioactive active material would probably not raise the death toll but it could sew panic. RIGER HAGENGRUBER, SANDIA NATIONAL LABORATORY: This would be a major psychological problem in a public way. But as a threat, it's not going to kill a lot of people, by and large.

ENSOR: The radio active material would make cleaning up the aftermath of a terrorist incident even more dangerous and difficult, experts say. But handled correctly, it wouldn't dramatically increase longer term health risks to those exposed.

DAVID ALBRIGHT, INST. FOR SCIENCE & INTL. SECURITY: Even if it is a fairly significant radiological -- fairly significant radiological attack, it is not like, 20 years from now we are going to see this huge spike in deaths from cancer.

ENSOR: Al Qaeda's interest in learning how to make nuclear weapons is clear, from materials recently found by journalists and others in the group's safe houses in Kabul. There is also evidence the group has tried hard to obtain materials to make a nuclear bomb.

In the New York trial of al Qaeda members accused in the Africa embassy bombings, Jamaal Ahmend Al Alfadl (ph) testified that an attempt was made in 1993 to buy South African bomb grade uranium.

ALBRIGHT: My understanding is it was highly enriched uranium. And that they didn't get it and it was a scam.

ENSOR: That failure may not have stopped the efforts. In recent months, a senior Russian general said, terrorists -- he did not say which ones -- were seen snooping around some little known nuclear facilities in Russia.

PAVEL FELGENHAUER, RUSSIAN JOURNALIST: These are very secret places. And, of course, he didn't say any more, didn't go into other any detail, except that there were attempts of stalking and that they were foiled.

ENSOR: And in Pakistan, this man, Bashiruddin (ph) Mahmood (ph), and another former Pakistani atomic scientist have been detained. They are being questioned about their trips to Afghanistan and alleged meetings with Osama bin Laden. They insist they were only working for a Muslim charity.

(on camera): Still, it would be much easier for terrorists to get their hands on radioactive materials such as those used in medical research, not nuclear-weapons grade, but usable in a dirty bomb. And cleaning up after such an explosion, experts say, could take years.

David Ensor, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: How real is the terror threat from radioactive dirty bombs? Should special forces move into the mountains to hunt for Osama bin Laden? Joining me now in the CNN WAR ROOM, the former secretary of state Lawrence Eagleburger, former NATO supreme commander, retired General George Joulwan, and Paul Bremer, a former U.S. ambassador for counterterrorism. And by the way, you can e-mail your WAR ROOM questions to cnn.com/wolf, that's my Web site. That's also where you can read my daily on-line column.

Mr. Secretary, let me begin with you, one questioner e-mails us this: "How does Osama bin Laden's possible possession of a dirty bomb impact current or near term military strategies in Afghanistan?"

LAWRENCE EAGLEBURGER, FMR. SECRETARY OF STATE: Well obviously, if he has one, it makes a lot of difference but I have assumed for several years that he and his cohorts must have been trying to get one. I would be surprised if they haven't had an effort for some time to get one.

So we hear a report that he may have a dirty bomb. I don't know whether we can believe it or not. If he has got one or if he is about to get one, it changes a lot of pictures unless we get in there fast and take it away from him.

BLITZER: General Joulwan, you used to deal with kind of situation in the bad old days of the Cold War, but there are some experts who assume that if this kind of device he would have used it by now.

GEN. GEORGE JOULWAN (RET.), FORMER NATO SUPREME COMMANDER: Perhaps, but you have to remember that our troops are trained in combating chemical, biological, radiation sort of devices. We have been concerned about this for a lot of years. The troops are trained to do it. Some of their vehicles are shielded against this.

I think we have to assume that he has what you call weapons of mass destruction, or the ability to get them. That's should not deter us from what we are doing. We have to be focused on what we are doing and continue on. And I think our troops are well prepared for it.

PAUL BREMER, FMR. AMB. FOR COUNTERTERRORISM: Ambassador Bremer, what is your take on this whole dirty bomb scenario? My guess is, if he tried to get it, and we know he tried, and if he got it, he is probably not planning to use it in the war campaign, he is trying to use it for terrorism outside of Afghanistan and that is a much more serious problem.

BLITZER: How do you do that?

BREMER: If you get your hands on radiological materials, and that can be things like hospital waste, we are not necessarily talking about highly enriched uranium, that is available all over the place, including in the United States. And then if you fabricate that into a conventional weapon, wrap the radiological equipment around a conventional explosive of some kind, you have at least a primitive, what is called an RDD, a Radiological Dispersal Device, which couldn't cause, as your story said at the top of the hour, considerable, certainly psychological, damage I think, more than the actual physical damage, the psychological damage.

BLITZER: All right, the search for Osama bin Laden continues, Mr. Secretary. I want to put up a map that shows where that search the U.S. intelligence community, seems to be focusing in, if we could get that up on the screen, take a look over here, just south of Jalalabad, in this Tora Bora area, a mountainous area, but one that the Pentagon says the U.S. doesn't have a whole lot of assets out there.

It is pretty rugged and it is pretty dangerous and it is not apparently under U.S. or allied control. Is this search for Osama bin Laden going to result in cave by cave by cave searches?

EAGLEBURGER: Well, you have got a militarily expert who, I hope, knows more about this than I do. But it seems to me, we have said we are going to get him one way or another. If what that requires, as far as the generals are concerned, is it would be a search cave by cave -- I assume that's what we'll do.

As long as we understand that there is more to this war and I don't mean just Afghanistan, there is a lot more to this war than Osama bin Laden. And while I think we have get him, if we can, since we said we were going to try, let's not assume that if we get him it's the end of the effort. Let's not assume that if we don't get him, there aren't other targets that are just as valuable. Yes, we ought to try to get him, but remember this is a long-term effort. And it goes well beyond Afghanistan.

BLITZER: You heard the former -- you may have heard the former Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu say if this is like getting a needle in a haystack, why not kill the haystack?

EAGLEBURGER: Well, I think what we have done is separate the hay from the needle. The Taliban fighters, now the Taliban and I think we are focusing in on them. That fight is going on in eastern Afghanistan is extremely interesting. You are seeing a marriage of the U.S. spotters on the ground, bringing in very, very precise strikes, and you see the opposition forces who know the terrain extremely well, working in conjunction with the coalition on the ground. So I think we have to have, as Larry has said, some patience here. But I think the -- it's progressing as well as we could expect right now.

The intent is to get him, the troops know that's part of the mission, but there's clearly a wider mission, here, that we have to focus on, not just in Afghanistan but in the region and indeed globally.

BLITZER: I want to read a question to you, Ambassador Bremer, see what you think about this. Rob from Atlanta e-mails us this: "Have the Taliban folded too quickly, is it drawing American troops into strategic "pockets" of resistance bait for something larger?"

BREMER: I don't think so. I know there was some concern about that when the Mazar-e Sharif fell so fast three weeks ago. But I think we are seeing a classic military route here. Now, there's a lot of hard work left to be done. Both around Tora Bora and Jalalabad, and in the south around Kandahar. And it's one of those classic things where the 80 percent of the mission is done, and the last 20 percent is going to be long, rough, it could very well be cave to cave, road to road in Kandahar. But this is not a strategic retreat by the Taliban, this is a route.

BLITZER: I have a military question. As a military what's your take on this John Walker, this American, this 20-year-old, who was working or serving in the Taliban? He's now injured, he's being held by U.S. special forces, what should the U.S. military do with this guy?

JOULWAN: I think turn him over to proper authorities and try him as someone that is -- taked up arms against his -- his country and he -- we've got precedents for this in the past. I think it's very simple, straight-forward -- try him. In this case, let the law work. And I think that whether it's treason or whatever statute is going to apply, I think he needs to be brought to justice.

BLITZER: Mr. Secretary, you may have seen some of the interviews his father gave suggesting that the kid was brainwashed. He's barely, you know, beyond being a teenager. Is there any sympathy we should have for this guy?

EAGLEBURGER: I personally have sympathy for him, and brainwashed I don't think so, but clearly he became enamored of the Muslim religion. He is, apparently, became a real believer. And you got himself into a mess, he's what 20-years-old? I'm not saying that he deserves no punishment at all, but what I would say to you is that this war goes far beyond some you this war goes far beyond some punk kid who got himself involved in Afghanistan, when he should have been home minding his manners. It's not that important.

BLITZER: As You know, Ambassador Bremer, there's a lot of interest out there, a lot of passionate feeling about this kid, out there in the country. What do you think the government should do with him?

BREMER: Well, I think the general put it right, he's violated American laws and it should just be turned over to the Justice Department. To me, it's as my friend Secretary Eagleburger said not a particularly important part of the story. The story really is now to try to finish the operations in Afghanistan, and then move on to the rest of the campaign against terrorism, which is going to be a long, hard campaign.

BLITZER: And we are going to talk about the rest of the campaign. I know General Joulwan has some strong views on what the U.S. has to do next.

When we come, though, terror and the war on terror. Is the Middle East plunging into chaos? We'll check out that, as well. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. You are looking at a live picture of Marine One, which has just landed on the south lawn of the White House, bringing President Bush back to the White House from Orlando, Florida -- where earlier today he was at a town meeting, spoke for about an hour, answering questions from an audience on everything ranging from the economic stimulus package to the war on terrorism. The president will be emerging from Marine One in a second or two, he'll be walking back into the White House. As we look at these pictures, Secretary Eagleburger, how is the president doing as commander-in-chief, right now?

EAGLEBURGER: So far, I think you you have to give him an a-plus. I have to warn you this has -- as I've said, this is a long-time effort, but so far I think he has done it brilliantly, I really do.

BLITZER: Do you agree with that general?

JOULWAN: I agree, and I think most importantly the troops are fired up with this commander-in-chief. And the greatest compliment, I could pay to a commander-in-chief is that troops will fight for this guy. They understand him, he's clear. He's made the mission clear. He said all options were on the table. So I think he's doing very well.

BLITZER: And as the president walks by reporters, let's see if he says anything, if he responds to any questions. Let's listen.

Did not respond to reporters who were standing by getting his picture, though. Clearly, he was happy, though, earlier in the day in Florida.

Retaliating, by the way, early today for a series of deadly weekend terror bombings -- Israeli jets and helicopters continued to rain fire on Gaza and the West Bank. The targets were Palestinian security organizations, but civilians were also caught in the assault. Missiles hit a building next to where Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat was sitting, in the west bank town of Ramallah. Israel says it's not aiming at Arafat himself, but rather symbols of his authority. So that's, of course, Ramallah -- not ramulla.

Ambassador Bremer, you have studied Middle East for a long time, it's a bad situation, right now, but the potential, of course, is that it could get a whole lot worse.

BREMER: Yes, actually what's hard to define is how it can get better. It is very bad. I think it's really at a turning point now. The Arafat double game is sort of over now. I think he's either going to have to fish or cut bait. The president pretty much said that to him, and I think it's really a question now whether he can do, what we've asked him to do, which is to control the terrorists that have been operating in the Palestinian Authority, and that's an open question.

BLITZER: Mr. Secretary, you remember during the Gulf War, the then President Bush dispatched you and Paul Wolfowitz to Israel to keep the Israelis on the sidelines during the Gulf War. Do you think that is likely to happen, once again, not necessarily dispatching you, but someone else to keep the Israelis on the sidelines, if, for example, the Iraqis were to launch some Scud Missiles at Israel? EAGLEBURGER: Well, look, I don't think that is likely to happen, but I think you have touched on a very important point. And I think what is going on in Israel right now can have a serious bearing on what we are trying to do in the war against terrorism, because if we are not -- if we are too close to the Israelis, some of our erstwhile friends that are helping us now in the war against terrorism will begin to back off.

At the same time, we have every reason in the world to support the Israelis in terms of what it is they are taking right now. So we have got ourselves a bit of a problem. It is similar to the Iraqi issue that you mentioned, except that in the case of the Iraq war, you could step them back and they weren't directly involved. In this case, they are directly involved.

BLITZER: Let me let General Joulwan pick up on the military aspects. This battle between the Palestinians and the Israeli could spill over and affect how the U.S. military conducts its own war.

JOULWAN: Absolutely. The stakes are very high here in Israel right now, and I think for example, I had this as part of my responsibility in my hat as a UCON (ph) commander in Europe, Israel, Lebanon and Syria. So, we watched it very closely.

What I'm concerned is, the linkage that we see with what is happening in Afghanistan. I think it is absolutely essential that United States stay engaged. We have seen a sea change since 11 September in our relationship with Israel and the Palestinians. So, I think we have to stay engaged and U.S. leadership has to be provided here. Without that, I think it is going to be in a spiral that is going to go nothing but down.

BLITZER: Ambassador Bremer, there was an editorial in "USA Today" which simply said this, among other things, "Arafat must choose: Crack down in hopes of defeating his terrorists, or join them and be crushed by Israel."

Is it, in your opinion, and you have studied this region for a long time, going back to the shuttle diplomacy of Henry Kissinger after the '73 war, is this a moment where the Israelis might seek to take out Yasser Arafat's leadership as they did in Beirut after they invaded Lebanon?

BREMER: The Israelis have a real problem here, which is that it is hard to imagine a leadership that is worse than Arafat, but it is also hard to imagine one that is better than Arafat. And I -- my own guess is that they won't take him out. They could if it got worse. One options that they are talking about is escorting him out of the Palestinian region and basically closing the airport and saying you can't come back and turn him into a sort of a refugee.

I think one thing to keep in mind here, we can't allow the terrorists to succeed in getting us to abandon Israel. We have to got to back up Israel. In fact, what is at stake in Israel really now, is the war that the president declared on September 20, a war that allows terrorists free range. And the Palestinian Authority is one of those places. It comes home rather dramatically and I think long before the administration wanted to face that issue.

But this is the issue. It will have an effect on our relations with Sudan, with Syria, with Lebanon as we go forward. It happens that it is being presented to us right away in the Palestinian Authority. But in cannot be that the result of that terrorism is that we abandon Israel.

BLITZER: All right, unfortunately we have to leave it right there. Ambassador Bremer, Secretary Eagleburger, General Joulwan, thanks for joining us.

And new concerns about a weapon in the war on domestic terrorism coming up. Find out what vaccines some medical experts are now second guessing. Stay with us.

BILL PRESS, CO-HOST, CROSSFIRE: I'm Bill Press from Washington. The White House says, watch out for new terrorist attacks. At the same time, it says. go shopping? What? Isn't that just confusing people?

And get ready. "TIME" magazine is preparing to name the 2001 person of the year. Would you believe it could be Osama bin Laden? What? Isn't that just making a hero out of him? It is a special "CROSSFIRE" double header up next after Wolf Blitzer's news headlines.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. Here are the latest developments. The U.S. government froze the assets of a Texas based charity, the Holy Land Foundation, as federal agents raided several offices of the group. The United States is asking other nations to freeze assets of two more organizations said to be involved in fundraising for Hamas.

A dose of medical doubt over the wisdom of widespread smallpox vaccinations. Today the American Medical Association stopped short of supporting smallpox vaccinations for all Americans, and called for more study. The AMA is concerned the vaccine could kill hundreds if the entire U.S. population is vaccinated.

And that's all the time we have tonight. Please join me again tomorrow twice, at both five and seven p.m. Eastern. Until then, thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. "CROSSFIRE" begins right now.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com