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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports
Are the Leaders of the Taliban and al Qaeda Getting Away?; Are Terrorist Cells Ready to Strike America Again?
Aired December 07, 2001 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Today on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS: "America Strikes Back." Taliban forces flee their last city and spiritual home, and al Qaeda diehards are hammered in the mountains. But are their leaders getting away?
Are terrorists sleeper cells lying in wait, ready to strike at America again?
And, as the nation retaliates for one day of infamy, it pays tribute to those who died in another.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And out of that surprise attack grew a steadfast resolve that made America freedom's defender. And that mission, our great calling, continues to this hour.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: We'll go live to Pearl Harbor, and we'll have the latest from the front lines in Afghanistan, as "America Strikes Back."
As promised, the last Afghan city under Taliban control is now in new hands. Hello from Washington. The focus shifts today to the leaders of the Taliban and al Qaeda, Mullah Mohammed Omar and Osama bin Laden. This hour, we'll explore the possibility of them escaping.
First, the latest developments. The birthplace of the Taliban is now under control of opposition forces. After weeks of vowing a fight to the death, the Taliban today surrendered the southern city of Kandahar. Now, sources say, a political fight has broken out among rival factions for control of the city. And opposition officials say they don't know the whereabouts of the supreme Taliban leader, Mullah Mohammed Omar.
U.S. Marines and special forces troops are attacking Taliban fighters fleeing Kandahar. Officials say the American forces have been involved in several fights. There are no reports of American casualties.
In eastern Afghanistan, opposition forces continue to attack positions held by al Qaeda and Taliban fighters. The attackers are being backed by heavy U.S. airstrikes. U.S. officials believe Osama bin Laden may be hiding in caves in the area.
And in the Middle East, Israeli troops today killed two Palestinians in the West Bank. The Israel defense forces said the Palestinian were intercepted as they were about to attack a village. Earlier, Israeli warplanes attacked a Palestinian security compound in Gaza City. The Israelis said the building was used to support terrorist activity. Seventeen people were injured.
The pilot of the American Airlines jet that hijackers crashed into the Pentagon will be buried at Arlington National Cemetery, after all. That's the final word now from Virginia Senator John Warner. Warner says the U.S. Army will allow the family to bury Navy reservist Charles Burlingame in his own plot. The Army initially denied the family's request, saying Burlingame did not meet an age requirement.
Remembering Pearl Harbor on this, the 60th anniversary of the Japanese attack, that plunged the United States into World War II. About 100 survivors of the December 7, 1941 surprise attack were on hand for today's ceremony. The attack killed nearly 2,400 people and destroyed or severely damaged many of the Navy's warships.
The final chapter has closed on the rule of the Taliban. But as important as it is, today's surrender of Kandahar leaves America's work in Afghanistan far from finished. In fact, one of the top U.S. targets, the Taliban leader, Mohammed Omar, may have used today's events to his own advantage. Some reports say Omar escaped Kandahar, either by agreement or in the chaos that followed the Taliban surrender. The Pentagon says it simply does not know.
Also unaccounted for, target No. 1. Despite a new report that Osama bin Laden was spotted in the hills above Tora Bora, bin Laden remains very much at large. But as CNN's Brent Sadler reports, the pursuit is on in earnest. And more and more, it involves the United States.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRENT SADLER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This is the end of a dramatic day of military activity in the foothills of the White Mountains, now in shadow behind me, in eastern Afghanistan. We have seen one of the most sustained and heavy periods of U.S. airstrikes. American bombers flying over this location, bombing, pounding positions of al Qaeda in the lower and higher regions of those mountains behind me.
Very hostile terrain, at the top of which, the fortress, mountain fortress of Tora Bora, possibly hiding Osama bin Laden himself, is located. Now, according to anti-Taliban force commanders on the ground here, as those U.S. planes were bombing those positions, they're claiming that -- the anti-Taliban fighters claiming that they have inflicted some severe casualties on al Qaeda, claiming to have killed at least two dozen of the al Qaeda fighters. Also, two of their senior commanders.
The anti-Taliban groups are also claiming that they have received radio appeals from al Qaeda representatives asking for time, breathing space, if you like. They're asking for five days, it said, for them to clear positions, for the anti-Taliban to stop fighting, and for al Qaeda to begin position to clear their areas and to withdraw from this region, so that they can move perhaps into Pakistan.
That mountain range behind me marks the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan. But the anti-Taliban commanders on the ground here say they refuse to do that. They reject that request, and they're going to continue with their assault, which they say will intensify in the coming days ahead.
Now, another important development today, we saw what appears to be a deployment of unidentified special forces, a group of non-Afghan armed men, moving slowly up the valley towards Tora Bora, with pack animals loaded with equipment, and guides. It was reported several days ago that as many as 20 American personnel were on the ground in eastern Afghanistan, but their services were not identified by commanders here.
But it does seem to be a deployment of some special forces of some kind heading up this very key region, possibly for intensified air activity in the coming days ahead.
Also at the end of this day, we saw tanks, T-55s, which have been pounding away at those al Qaeda positions, moving forward. Presumably for a better shot so that they can continue tank support of the warriors, the anti-Taliban warriors, making their way, inching towards the final objective of Tora Bora itself. That's going to take many, many more days of what's expected to be tough and heavy going.
Brent Sadler, CNN, in the White Mountains of eastern Afghanistan.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: So, despite the progress of today in the Afghan war, there's still no Osama bin Laden and still no Mullah Omar. Joining us to talk about the hunt for these two fugitives, Representative Porter Goss of Florida. He's the chairman of the House intelligence committee.
Mr. Chairman, thanks for joining us. Is it possible that when all is said and done, Mullah Omar and Osama bin Laden may not be caught?
REP. PORTER GOSS (R), FLORIDA: I don't think that's a possibility. I think that they will in fact brought to justice. They may not be caught this week or in the caves, but I think that we will do everything we can to make sure they and their close followers are brought to some form of justice. I think there's no doubt about that.
They are the king pieces of the international terrorist network. And we are going after the whole network -- the top, the bottom, and all the parts in between. So they will be brought to justice.
BLITZER: Mullah Mohammed Omar, was he allowed to escape, if you will, by some of the opposition forces aligned with Hamid Karzai, the interim leader of Afghanistan, or did he escape on his own? GOSS: I don't think anyone really knows that. There is a lot of confusion. There is a lot of tribal agendas at play over there. And there are only a very few American troops in the area, or American personnel in the area. Consequently, we're not going to know all of those things.
But I do know that sooner or later we will find it. Because we are in the business of tracking these people down. And this is not just in Afghanistan. People say, what if they get out of Afghanistan. We are doing, concurrently, around the world, in several dozens of countries, intelligence work to bring the total network to bay, so that we wipe it out, as the president said we are going to do.
BLITZER: Well, let's put up on a screen -- we have a map of the al Qaeda network. And I want to show our viewers, everything up in red that you are seeing, not only here in the United States but in Russia, around the world, northern Africa, these are areas where U.S. intelligence believes al Qaeda has active cells. What's your worst- case scenario? Your nightmare scenario right now, despite the successes on the ground in Afghanistan?
GOSS: Well, we have made good success. That's the first thing. And we've got some great Americans out there doing intelligence work around the world, 7/24, right now. My worst fear is that in these countries, which includes the United States, where there are active networks, is that we are going to find a suicidal person who is going to take independent action to do carnage to Americans, to deliberately maim and kill the most innocent of victims, at the time when they least expect it, when we're most vulnerable. Something like the World Trade Towers, which we did not expect. center.
That's my nightmare, because you can't defend against every possible construct they may make to come after you with, especially when you're dealing with people who are suicidal and will give their life. So you have to get good intelligence to find out what the plans, intentions are ahead of time, and to stop the bomb from going off before it goes off.
BLITZER: We've heard a lot about a bomb, even a crude, dirty bomb, a nuclear device. Are these fears of chemical, biological, even nuclear capabilities, realistic?
GOSS: They're not as much a threat, in my view, as the fact that a suicidal person who is now sleeping in the United States could use something that is already here, and something as innocent as a commercial airliner, and turn it against us, by abusing our freedoms and our hospitality here -- would be very easy to do.
I'm not going to give you a specific, because I don't want to put ideas in anyone's head. But as you've seen the kind of terror that other countries have experienced, like Israel, what it's going through in the Mideast, that gives you a little bit of a clue.
BLITZER: Porter Goss, the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, thank you. So much for joining us. Later this program, we're going to continue this discussion with Brian Jenkins, who is a terrorist specialist as well, especially on the so-called sleeper cells that may still be out there. Thank you very much.
GOSS: I'm pleased for your attention.
BLITZER: Thank you. And meanwhile in Kandahar, after the Taliban surrender, we've seen reports today of shooting among rival militias. There are also reports of looting, and a general sense of chaos. By chance, the Taliban surrendered today in another town, where CNN's Nic Robertson happens to be. He reports now on the change of power near the border of Pakistan in the Afghan town of Spin Boldak.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Raising the flag of exiled King Zahir Shah, Achackzai tribesman declare this corner of Afghanistan free from Taliban. Only hours before, they say, the last Taliban fighters left, after first surrendering their weapons. The Achackzai fighters wander freely around this part of Spin Boldak. Negotiations with the Taliban left them 1/3 of the tiny border town. Two other tribes control the rest.
For now, as the change in order takes place, the streets are somewhat chaotic. Given that these people have just thrown off their Taliban overlords, a remarkable sense of normality pervades. In a quiet room away from the confusion of the streets, Haji Kareem Khan, head of the Achackzai tribe, holds court.
Tribal elders come to show respect. The vigorous debate is over how to run their part of town.
HAJI KAREEM KHAN, ACHACKZAI TRIBAL CHIEF (through translator): If we catch any Arabs, we'll arrest them. We'll hand them over to the international law. They destroyed our country and spilled our blood.
ROBERTSON: And while most of these men knew and got on with the Taliban for the seven years the hard line Islamic militia ran things here, these tribesmen want revenge.
KHAN (through translator): The leaders of the Taliban will not be given amnesty. All of the problems that happened to Afghanistan are because of these leaders. If it were not for their crimes, Afghanistan would not be in this misery.
ROBERTSON: Unlike Kandahar, three hours drive down a highway, tribal leaders here in Spin Boldak say they have been united sufficiently to prevent looting here, despite all of the valuable goods stored in this frontier town.
(on camera): While some elements of the transition still remain unclear, intentions do exist between some tribes. Most people here are hoping now, after 22 years of war, tribal commanders can settle any outstanding differences without further bloodshed. Nic Robertson, CNN, Spin Boldak, Afghanistan.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: The commander of the United States forces in Afghanistan confirmed today that the situation in Kandahar remains unstable. He also confirmed that the United States Marines have been fighting some of the Taliban troops who are trying to flee the city.
General Tommy Franks also said this...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GENERAL TOM FRANKS, U.S. CENTRAL COMMAND COMMANDER: I will not say that we anticipate the Marines going into Kandahar. I would simply leave it on the table. We certainly have not ruled out the possibility of the Marines going into Kandahar. We have not ruled it out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Joining us now, the retired Army General Wesley Clark. He's of course the former supreme allied commander of NATO. He's currently a CNN military analyst.
What do you take of what General Franks said? They're not ruling out the Marines going into Kandahar, but no present plans. Is it necessary for the Marines to go into that city?
GEN. WESLEY CLARK (RET), FMR. NATO SUPREME COMMANDER: Well, I'm sure there's work going on right now, to try to encourage Karzai and all of these Pashtun tribes that were anti-Taliban to go in there, do the searches, go to the locations where Mullah Omar was and pull him out, and all of his top leadership.
But whether that is going to happen, whether that's going to happen in a timely and effective manner, no one knows. So I think it's very smart for Tommy Franks to hold on to the option to put the Marines in there, if necessary.
BLITZER: I want to show our viewers a map of Kandahar, and the roads going away from Kandahar. Take a look at -- this is the airport, where friendly forces have been there for some time. But there's only a certain number, limited number, indeed, of roads that leave. How difficult will it be to try to capture those escaping Taliban forces who are fleeing Kandahar?
CLARK: Well, my guess is it will be more difficult than that map shows, because a lot of these people have off-road vehicles. This is an area that's renowned for smuggling. And people have traveled in that area for centuries. So there's bound to be a lot of different ways to move, other than the most prominent roadways that are shown on that map.
And we've only got so many Marines on the ground. And even if we are on the ground and watching and looking in vehicles, remember, most of our troops don't speak the language. And we're not going to, in all probability, recognize Omar when we see him...
(VIDEO GAP)
BLITZER: Looks like we've unfortunately lost our satellite connection with General Clark. We'll try to fix that. We'll get back to him, of course, when we can. Meanwhile, President Bush today, saluted the collapse of the Taliban. As it happens, this major event in Afghanistan fell upon the anniversary of another military milestone, that day of infamy back in 1941.
CNN White House correspondent Kelly Wallace traveled with the president today for his speech as the commander-in-chief aboard a USS aircraft carrier -- Kelly.
KELLY WALLACE, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, President Bush back at the White House. But during his visit here earlier this afternoon, he saluted the U.S. military. In fact, he got a lot of laughs when he said the al Qaeda and the Taliban used to control most of Afghanistan, but now he said, they just control a few caves.
Mr. Bush also using this visit to draw parallels between what he called one of the most fateful days in American history and the September 11th terrorist attacks. The president getting a very, very warm welcome from a crowd, estimated at about 10,000, gathered here earlier this afternoon aboard the flight deck of the USS Enterprise.
The Enterprise, participating in the first airstrikes against Afghanistan. The ship returning back to port just a couple of weeks ago. Also on hand, 25 survivors of the attack on Pearl Harbor. The president saying that attack, after that attack, America had a great resolve to defend its freedom. He said the same holds true today.
And then, to the delight of many gathered here, he mocked Osama bin Laden and his al Qaeda operative.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: They celebrate death, making a mission of murder in a sacrament of suicide. Yet for some reason, for some reason, only young followers are ushered down this deadly path to paradise, while terrorists leaders run into caves to save their own hides.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WALLACE: The men and women of the armed forces certainly cheering that comment. The president saying the U.S. is fighting this war to win. And he says it would win, although he did say it is a long way from finished, that much more difficult work lies ahead. But he said piece by piece, the U.S. military would tear up any terrorist network of global reach.
And then, Wolf, the president, once again, putting nations around the world on notice, saying there will be a day of reckoning for any nation which harbors or sponsored terrorists. Wolf, back to you. BLITZER: Thank you very much, Kelly Wallace.
And should Iraq be the next U.S. target? Senator John McCain talks to me about that and other issues relating to America's new war tonight, 7:00 p.m. Eastern, here in the CNN war room. And you can read more about Iraq in my daily column. That's on-line on my Web site. Just go to it, cnn.com/wolf.
And I'll talk to the Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz on "LATE EDITION" Sunday. That's at noon eastern, 9:00 a.m. Pacific.
This is certainly a day that will live in infamy. Remembering Pearl Harbor and comparing December to September 11, later this hour. Next, the Taliban American's interrogation by the man who would become the first American to die in combat in Afghanistan.
And we leave you now in this segment with live pictures from Ground Zero in New York, where they have just recovered yet another body.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Last month, a young CIA officer became the first American killed in combat in Afghanistan. Mike Spann was killed in an uprising by Taliban prisoners. Since then, information has come to light on what Spann was doing shortly before his death.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): On "Newsweek's" Web site, a remarkable snapshot of the CIA field interrogation. November 25, armed CIA agents, known on the tape only as Mike and Dave, interrogate foreign fighters of the defeated Taliban at a 19th century fort in Mazar-e Sharif.
Among the prisoners, a young man with a mysterious history. "Newsweek" saw a video of the interrogation. This is "Newsweek's" account. Mike, later identified as Mike Spann, is wearing jeans and a black sweater, a kalashnikov strapped across his back.
The prisoner, going by the Muslim name Abdul Hamid, is brought in, arms bound. Mike Spann: "What's your name?" Spann speaks in English, apparently aware his prisoner is Western, snaps his fingers twice. "Hey!" No response.
Spann: "Who brought you here? How did you get here? Hello?" Spann turns to Dave: "I explained to him what the deal is."
DAVE: "The problem is, he's got to decide if he wants to live or die. If he wants to die, he's going to die here. It's his decision, man. We can only help the guys who want to talk to us." They're getting nowhere.
Spann tries again. He tells the prisoner that the September 11 hijackers killed other Muslims. There were several hundred other Muslims killed in the bombing. "Are you going to talk to us?" No response. Dave: "This guy got his chance. He got his chance."
An Afghan man pulls Hamid's long hair from his face, Dave takes a photograph. Interview over.
Hours later the prisoners attack their guards. Mike went down shooting. He was killed -- the first U.S. combat casualty in Afghanistan. After his partner was killed, Dave, according to "Newsweek," got out with the help of U.S. and British special forces.
The prisoners fought a brutal four-day pitch battle against the Afghan opposition and U.S. and British troops. Near death, the rebels finally gave up. Then, another shock.
JOHN WALKER, TALIBAN AMERICAN: I haven't eaten in about more than a week.
BLITZER: A CNN crew interviewed the man known as Abdul Hamid. He was an American, John Walker, from northern California.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
In this note, the "Newsweek" correspondent, Colin Soloway, who broke the story, will be a guest tonight on "LARRY KING LIVE." That's' at 9:00 Eastern, 6:00 Pacific.
And I want to bring back General Wesley Clark, who's joining us. General Clark, I was going to ask you about the search for Osama bin Laden and Mullah Omar. There's been some speculation that perhaps Osama bin Laden, with all of his wealth, could get on a boat somewhere, get out of Afghanistan. There are several ships, apparently, that he owns or has control over.
I want to put up on our screen a map showing some of the possible waterways in which he could presumably get out of that area. Is that realistic? And what, if anything, should the U.S. military do about that contingency?
CLARK: I think it is a realistic possibility. There are many possibilities for him to escape. We've got to put the net as close as we can to Tora Bora, assuming he is there. We've got to get the Pakistani government, all of its police and its agents, to help isolate and prevent Osama bin Laden from getting to a port.
And then we have got to have a third ring around it. We've got to take a look -- our allies have to take a look at every one of those ships that leave.
BLITZER: Who has a better chance of escaping, Mullah Omar or Osama bin Laden?
CLARK: I'd say Mullah Omar. Even though he doesn't have the money, he's in his own country. He's one of a number of tribesman there. He's got lots of friends. He can hide and good to ground, and he'll be much tougher to find.
BLITZER: General Clark, as usual, thank you very much for joining us.
CLARK: Thank you, Wolf.
BLITZER: Thank you. In an update on today's developments in "America's New War," that's just ahead. Also, as the hunt for Osama bin Laden intensifies, what will trigger a wakeup call for the so- called sleeper cells? Terrorism expert Brian Jenkins will join me on that.
And we'll also speak with mayors of three large cities on preparing for what's ahead. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back.
How worried should you be about another round of terrorism here in the United States? We'll ask Brian Jenkins in just a few moments.
But first, let's take a look at the latest developments in "America's New War." The fall from power of the Taliban was formalized today, with the surrender of Kandahar, the Taliban's birthplace and final stronghold. Reports say control of the city remains uncertain. The Pentagon says it cannot confirm reports that Taliban leader Mohammed Omar escaped, amid the chaos.
The Pentagon confirms that as Taliban fighters attempt to flee Kandahar, some are being attacked by the United States. Officials say the American forces have been involved in several fights, including one today in which seven Taliban fighters were killed. There are no reports of American casualties.
In eastern Afghanistan, opposition forces continue to attack positions held by al Qaeda and Taliban fighters. The attackers are being backed by heavy U.S. airstrikes. U.S. officials believe Osama bin Laden may be hiding in caves in the area.
And the pilot of one of jets that was hijacked September 11 will be buried after all at Arlington National Cemetery. Charles Burlingame was the pilot of the American Airlines plane that crashed into the Pentagon. The U.S. Army came under pressure after originally rejecting the request of Burlingame's family to allow him a plot at Arlington.
Right now, we want to turn our attention to the fight against terrorism within the United States. Lest we forget, this country remains under a state of alert, as declared by the federal government. And some have suggested that al Qaeda terrorists on U.S. soil may be awaiting a signal to launch yet another attack.
Joining us now to talk more about that and more, the terrorism expert Brian Jenkins. He is a senior adviser to the Rand Corporation. He joins us live from Los Angeles.
Brian, thanks, as usual, for joining us.
How worried should Americans be right now?
Brian, I don't know if you heard me, but I was having some trouble hearing you. Let me repeat the question.
How worried, Brian, should Americans be right now?
I guess we're having some audio problems. We'll going to try to fix those problems with Brian Jenkins.
Stay with us. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back.
One We've fixed some of the audio problems with Brian Jenkins, a terrorism expert, a senior adviser to the Rand Corporation.
Brian, I hope you can hear me. I hope we can hear you.
Let's get right to the key question at hand. In the aftermath of this third alert issued earlier in the week by Governor Ridge, the homeland security director, how worried, realistically speaking, should Americans be right now of another terrorist attack?
BRIAN JENKINS, TERRORISM EXPERT: Well, putting aside these threats and warnings that come and go and reflect information and warning and changes in the volume and patterns of communications among terrorists, we should be extremely concerned.
It would be very dangerous to slip into a complacency, despite the progress that we have achieved in Afghanistan. We know that the terrorist operatives who carried out the September 11 attacks were in this country for months, for years planning these attacks. And yet we did not identify them until the events occurred.
We also know that these attacks were calculated to provoke a military response that those who directed them could then attempt to portray as an attack on Islam. Therefore, we have to assume that they made plans in advance, that they have a business-continuity plan to protect the leadership, the finances and the key operatives. And there may even be other operations in place that we will find out days from now, months from now, potentially years from now.
BLITZER: So you agree with the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, Porter Goss, who I just interviewed, that there could be all sorts of so-called sleeper cells out there throughout the United States just waiting for some sort of signal or perhaps getting ready to act on their own?
JENKINS: I don't know that they need wait for a signal.
I mean, it was predictable on the part of the leadership of al Qaeda that they would be going to ground. They might be on the run. They might not be able to communicate effectively with their own network. So there may be operations already in place that need no further approval from the top.
We also know that, as al Qaeda leaders are killed or captured and brought to trial, that those events themselves may inspire individual terrorists or small cells to carry out terrorist operations. So this thing certainly is going to continue for months, quite possibly for years. But we must destroy the al Qaeda network, unless we are willing to accept the risk of another September 11 a year, five years from now in this country.
BLITZER: Is there any way of knowing or guessing even, if you will, in a very serious manner what the nature of the next terrorist attack might be? As you know, there has been a lot of speculation about chemical, biological, perhaps even a crude dirty nuclear device. Are any of those scenarios realistic?
JENKINS: Look, we know the mind-set. We know that the kind of planning that went into this operation and the mind-set behind it was to kill as many Americans as possible.
We don't know with certainty -- at least I don't -- whether or not al Qaeda or operatives associated with it possess chemical, biological or nuclear weapons. But we don't want to run the test. We can safely assume that they will attempt to acquire and will employ against us whatever weapons they can get their hands on.
And, therefore, we cannot accept the risk that they might acquire weapons of mass destruction. Even with conventional weapons, with relatively low-tech means, they have demonstrated a capacity to inflict major casualties and damage.
BLITZER: Brian, I've known you for many years. And I know you always have good, practical advice. The average American watching this program right now, perhaps the average Canadian who might be watching this program right now, what advice do you have for them in dealing with this higher state of alert against terrorism?
JENKINS: We will learn to live with it. We ought to avoid the danger of slipping into some kind of a complacency. We're not talking about an episode of "West Wing" here, where it is going to be over in an evening's television.
This is an ongoing war. There will be further casualties. However -- however -- even the increased probability of a significant terrorist attack does not significantly increase the attack to any individual. There are 280 million of us.
And so, while we have to maintain our courage, our determination, and we have to be realistic in our acceptance of that risk, nonetheless, we can go on with our lives. We need not fundamentally alter the way this nation is put together. And we're certainly not going to give up the democratic values that this nation represents.
BLITZER: Brian Jenkins, thanks for joining us. We always appreciate having you on our program.
JENKINS: Thank you. BLITZER: When we come back, we'll speak with some mayors. How should they deal with the potential problem of terrorism once again?
And we will leave you right now with this image, an image that explains why we're talking about all of this. This is ground zero, of course, where they have just recovered another body.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back.
One of the jobs that has gotten harder since September 11 is that of being a mayor. In cities large and small, mayors are involved in the detailed work of protecting America's citizens.
Joining us now from Atlanta, where the nation's mayors have been meeting this week, the Washington, D.C. mayor, Anthony Williams, Mayor Jeff Griffin of Reno, Nevada, and Michael Guido, the mayor of Dearborn, Michigan.
Thanks to all of you.
Mayor Guido, let me begin with you. You have a very large Arab- American population in Dearborn. Does that require you to have special problems that perhaps some other mayors don't have?
MICHAEL GUIDO, MAYOR OF DEARBORN: I don't know if it's necessarily special problems, but there is certainly challenges. In essence, our community has been very peaceful, very respectful.
We have gone through these issues before: the liberation of Lebanon, the intifada. Any time there is an issue in the Middle East, we seem to get a lot of media attention. But for us, we worry perhaps that people from outside the city may come in and try to cause problems. And so, for that, we take extra precautions.
BLITZER: Mayor Griffin, you're the mayor of Reno, which depends heavily on tourism. Is tourism -- obviously, I'm sure it's being affected by all of this. How much is your community suffering?
JEFF GRIFFIN, MAYOR OF RENO: Well, it was originally, right after September 11, hit pretty hard.
But one of our concerns, quite frankly, over the last seven or eight years, has been our dependence on what we call the drive-in part of our tourism economy, the people from the Pacific Northwest and Northern California. And, quite frankly. it has really saved us, because people have been more hesitant to fly. And they still want to recreate. So we found that our business, while taking an initial dip, has really come back fairly strong.
BLITZER: That's not the case, Mayor Williams, in the nation's capital, where tourism is indeed suffering. What special steps are you taking now to deal with the threat of another targeting of Washington, D.C., which, of course, was the case in the attack against the Pentagon? ANTHONY WILLIAMS, MAYOR OF WASHINGTON, D.C.: Well, you're right, in anthrax as well, as you know, Wolf.
Tourism in the city is off one still one-half to one-third. So that's a big, big hit to tourism, an economy that was leading the nation before September 11. And our strategy is -- and your guest right before us I think hit it right on the head -- are, people have to be realistic. They have to be prepared. They have to be alert. But they have to, they must go about their regular lives.
And we're doing a number of promotions, ranging from promotions with "The West Wing" program, to special promotions with our restaurants and our retail, to an international effort to get stars and cultural institutions who are affiliated with the District, from the president on down, speaking the same message: Come on out. Enjoy the American way of life in our nation's capital.
BLITZER: Mayor Guido, have you taken some emergency measures in Dearborn to deal with the potential threat of another terrorist attack?
GUIDO: Actually, since September 11, we have been on heightened alert. And despite the fact that we have had three warnings from the federal government, we have not relaxed our standards since September 11.
We have a few mosques in our city. We have a large manufacturing plant and some Fortune 500 companies. And, certainly, all of those deserve protection, but we're concerned about our neighborhoods as well. So we have not changed our methods since September 11.
BLITZER: Can you say, Mayor Griffin, that you're completely prepared, your community is completely prepared for some sort of terrorist attack?
GUIDO: I don't think so.
We've obviously spent a lot of time, both here and in Atlanta with The National League of Cities, as well as meeting in Washington several times. I convened a regional emergency summit in Reno. We're doing the very best we can. We try to anticipate. I think one of concerns that I have are the generalized nature of these alerts.
I would really like to see a little more specificity. And I know Governor Ridge is, I think, telling us as much as he possibly knows. But I'm very concerned about the boy who cried wolf, kind of -- forgive that, Wolf -- but that eventually seeping into my community's subconscious, where they begin to not take these warnings seriously. We are on alert, as Mayor Guido said, in Dearborn -- same thing in Reno. And it's an overwhelming effort right at the moment.
BLITZER: Unfortunately, we have to leave it right there. I want to thank all three of our mayors, Mayor Williams, Mayor Griffin, Mayor Guido. And we'll have you back, probably on many occasions. We appreciate it very much.
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: Thank you.
Still ahead: remembering the days of infamy. What makes Pearl Harbor different from September 11?
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Two Navy buglers, one playing "Taps," the others its echo, were part of the somber ceremony marking the 60th anniversary of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. December 7, 1941, a date that President Franklin Roosevelt told a stunned American nation will live in infamy. Sixty years later, many Americans are drawing comparisons with the surprise attack on Pearl Harbor to the terrorist attacks of September 11.
Among those attending the ceremony at Pearl Harbor were some 100 survivors of the attack. Many are now in their 80s and say this may be the last time they will see one another or Pearl Harbor.
CNN's Eric Horng has more now from Hawaii -- Eric.
ERIC HORNG, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, we have to a spoken of a number of veterans this week here in Hawaii. And I can tell you that 60 years have weakened the body, but it's done very little to diminish the memories of December 7, 1941.
Hundreds of veterans from around the country gathered here in Hawaii today to mark this very solemn anniversary.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): Six decades have passed since the attack on Pearl Harbor. But on this day, amidst the melancholy strains of a long bugler, and the salute of an aging veteran, time seems to stand still. For many veterans, the journey back to Pearl Harbor is less about the place than the moment.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is a date that stands out. It's unique. Before Pearl Harbor was, quite literally, a different era than after Pearl Harbor.
HORNG: Almost half of the nearly 2,400 Americans who died perished aboard the USS Arizona. Hundreds remain entombed in a watery grave, their names listed on this memorial wall hovering above the sunken ship; 81-year-old Milton Hearst (ph) was one of the lucky ones, swimming ashore moments before the Arizona went under, eventually ending up in this bomb shelter. After 60 years, this is his first trip back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, golly. What a thrill. Now this thrills me.
HORNG: Many of these Pearl Harbor survivors were on hand for previous commemorations, but with each passing year, age takes a greater toll than bullets ever did.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HORNG: This anniversary of Pearl Harbor taking on new meaning in light of the events of September 11. And so, perhaps fittingly, hundreds of relatives of rescue workers killed at the World Trade Center were invited to attend commemoration ceremonies here in Hawaii this week.
At Pearl Harbor, I'm Eric Horng reporting live -- Wolf, back to you.
BLITZER: Thank you very much, Eric.
And joining us now to talk about Pearl Harbor and its special meaning this year because of the September terrorist attacks, the historian Richard Shenkman. He is the editor and founder of the Web site: HistoryNewsNetwork.org.
Richard, thanks for joining us.
Compare, historically speaking, for Americans Pearl Harbor Day with September 11.
RICHARD SHENKMAN, HISTORIAN: Well, first of all, there are both similarities and there are differences. Let's talk about the similarities: a big huge event.
After Pearl Harbor, the world changed. After 9/11, the world has changed. We understand that. Secondly, both events elicited an enormous patriotic fervor by the American people. They rallied around the president. So those are the things that they have in common.
The differences, though, may be even more striking. First of all, al Qaeda is not a state. So we're not going against the Germans or the Japanese or the Italians. That makes a difference. Secondly -- and this is vital to understand -- this, while -- this was a real genuine sneak attack in a way that Pearl Harbor never was. We understood, through the late 1930s, that the risk of war with Japan was very, very great.
In 9/11, no one was expecting that these terrorists were going to be attacking the United States, not in this way, not in this incredible way. So this, in a way, was more of a surprise.
BLITZER: And one of the other differences that some commentators have pointed out is that, after Pearl Harbor, the country rallied and got engaged in massive sacrifices, if you will, including government service. That has not necessarily been the case right now.
SHENKMAN: Yes. No, Americans are not being called to sacrifice now.
You know, in World War II, we had to shift immediately from an economy that was geared toward civilians to the military. In just a couple of years, the United States produced something like 300,000 planes, hundreds of thousands of tanks. The United States economy right now is not going on a war footing. We're adding a couple of billion dollars to the military defense budget.
That's not requiring the kind of sacrifices that Americans had. Another difference that I would love to point out was that Pearl Harbor was about the United States going after another state. The United States now is going after, very much like in the 19th century and the 18th century, almost Indian tribes. It's that same sense, where Indians came and massacred an American settlement or a village, and then George Washington, for instance, would send the Army out to crush that Indian spot of hostility.
And he would send the Army -- for instance, at one point, he sent the Army crush the Seneca in Upstate New York. And he said: I want them demolished. I want their villages destroyed utterly.
That's the same kind of approach that we're hearing right now out of our president in this administration. And I think that's a stronger analogy to what's going on than to Pearl Harbor, where we're gearing up to fight half the world.
BLITZER: That's a fascinating point. I haven't thought of that. Richard Shenkman, thanks for joining us.
SHENKMAN: Sure.
BLITZER: And let's go to New York now and get a preview of "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE." That begins at the top of the hour -- Lou.
LOU DOBBS, "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE": Yes, Wolf, thank you.
Coming up next on "MONEYLINE," The Taliban, as you have been pointing out, has collapsed. The hunt for Osama bin Laden is intensifying. And there is reason to believe that the military has narrowed that area. We'll be assessing the progress in both the removal of the Taliban and the destruction of the al Qaeda and the search for Osama bin Laden with military analyst General David Grange.
And on the very day that the Taliban falls, America remembers a tragedy of 60 years ago -- the commemoration of Pearl Harbor.
Also tonight, we'll be telling you why many advertisers are not taking that offer to advertise on the Super Bowl -- all of that and a lot more coming right up here at the top of the hour -- Wolf, back to you.
BLITZER: Thank you very much, Lou. We'll be watching.
We're going to take a quick break. Before we do, though, we have a picture, a live picture: this moving ceremony, a Christmas tree being lit, just having been lit, at ground zero.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back.
Sixty years ago, defending America cost the country hundreds of thousands of lives.
CNN's Garrick Utley takes a look back and remembers.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GARRICK UTLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): What had happened on that December morning, Americans knew the war would claim its price -- more than 400,000 American war dead before the last shot was fired.
Sixty years later, in another war, there has not yet been a single American military combat death from enemy fire. American weapons are now so advanced, they have changed the very nature of war.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are way ahead of any military. There has never been a situation where the military gap between one nation and the rest of the world has been this great.
UTLEY (on camera): Think about that and what it means if the United States can now fight its war on the cheap, not in terms of dollars spent or enemy destroyed, and certainly not in the number of civilians accidentally killed, but rather low cost in the number of American military dead.
(voice-over): Today, Americans no longer have to directly face the enemy. Bombers can fly at such heights and with such stealth, unmanned missiles can cruise and strike with such accuracy, that they are nearly invulnerable. The smart bombs and missiles today are up to five times more accurate than those used in the Gulf War.
Most U.S. service men and women in this war have been able to stay out of harm's way. What did it take to so dramatically change warfare?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One is the amount of money we spent on defense. If you take a look at what the United States spends on defense, it's almost more than the rest of the world combined.
UTLEY (on camera): You can say that has been a good investment: more money for new weapons to protect the lives of Americans in uniform. And, unlike past wars, anyone who doesn't want to be in uniform doesn't have to be. There is no draft, no legal obligation anymore for anyone to fight America's wars.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, ARMY AD)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am an army of one.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UTLEY (voice-over): But if the military is all voluntary and wars have few U.S. losses, could there be a hidden danger?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I think the danger is that we could have a unilateral approach to international politics. Because we are so powerful militarily, we think we can do it alone in lots of other areas. UTLEY: And the United States has been going it alone in Afghanistan. Yes, it needs air bases and airspaces, but it has asked for virtually no direct combat support from other nations.
Still, before anyone becomes too confident over the defeat of far weaker enemies, before we think that those painful reminders of past wars are relics of a bygone era, there is September 11. Others, too, can change the way they fight their wars and inflict casualties on civilians and create a space and a place for yet another memorial to a war.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE" begins right now.
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