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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports
Have the Taliban Given Up the War in Afghanistan?; Where are Osama bin Laden and Mullah Mohammed Omar?
Aired December 07, 2001 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS, THE WAR ROOM: They've given up their last stronghold, but have the Taliban given up the fight?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Not long ago, that regime controlled most of Afghanistan. Today they control not much more than a few caves.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Al Qaeda fighters are being pounded at Tora Bora. But where are Mullah Omar and Osama bin Laden?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: That has to be part of our goal, is to kill or capture the leadership.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Is the war on terrorism entering its most dangerous phase? I'll ask Senator John McCain, a hero of another war. And on this December 7th, we'll look back at two days of infamy as we go into THE WAR ROOM.
Good evening. I'm Wolf Blitzer reporting tonight from Washington. We'll get to my special interview with Senator McCain shortly.
But first, there have been dramatic developments in the war in Afghanistan two months to the day after the start of U.S. air strikes. On this day, U.S. military forces and their coalition partners including Afghan rebels wrapped up their rout of the Taliban, taking their last remaining stronghold. The southern Afghan city of Kandahar is no longer under the control of the Taliban's supreme leader, Mullah Mohammed Omar. But despite the battlefield victory, Omar and Osama bin Laden remain at large. America's search for them continues.
Let's get right to the situation on the ground. CNN's Nic Robertson joins us now live from the Pakistani-Afghan border. Nic, give us the latest. NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, hello.
Just a few hours ago as the Taliban left the border town of Spin Boldak, just across the border from where we are now, we went into that town. It's now controlled by three different tribal groups. We could see plenty of armed men on the street, flags red, green and black were flying, symbolizing the support of the people now for the exiled King Zahir Shah.
Now the tribal leaders there told us that the Taliban had gone and that they had surrendered their weapons before they had gone. The tribal leaders saying that Spin Boldak was calm.
When we crossed -- when we talked more to our sources deeper inside Afghanistan in Kandahar, they talked about a chaotic start to the day in that city, with the Taliban fleeing and widespread looting. As the day progressed, Mullah Nakib (ph), who is now the commander of the Kandahar area, as his forces came into town, the looting stopped, more flag waving for the exiled king and more tribal forces join the town. We are told by night's end that the city is now quiet.
However, the Taliban were fleeing and it's not clear to us at this stage whether or not they surrendered their weapons. Marines who were based at the Camp Rhino, the Marine expeditionary base unit some 60 miles southwest of Kandahar, went on the ground offensive for the first time, I interdicting fleeing Taliban leaders. They reportedly killed seven Taliban. However, they have not so far found the Taliban leader, Mullah Mohammed Omar.
The new head of Afghanistan's interim government, Hamid Karzai, who negotiated a Taliban surrender, said he does not know where Osama bin Laden is. He does not know where the Taliban leader, Mullah Mohammed Omar, is. Mullah Mohammed Omar has been in hiding for at least several weeks now. That's what Taliban officials have been telling us.
Further to the north, the bombing around Tora Bora, the mountain and the cave hideaway of an al Qaeda hideout where Osama bin Laden is also believed to be hiding, not only came under U.S. led bombing raids but also from ground offenses by several thousand mujahedeen fighters. But again, the location of Osama bin Laden not known. And in the north around Jalalabad, the bombing still continues. We hear the bombers flying overhead right here in Chaman -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Nic, is there a sense in the region that Osama bin Laden may be running out of places to hide?
Nic, I don't know if you can hear me, but let me repeat the question. Is there a sense in the region Osama bin Laden may be running out of places to hide?
ROBERTSON: There is absolutely because where he can hide is essentially where he has friends. The Taliban were his friends. Mullah Omar was, maybe still is, his friend. Mullah Omar doesn't control anything of Afghanistan now perhaps beyond the compound where he is. So Osama bin Laden's options are equally limited. He may be with those al Qaeda fighters around Tora Bora. He may be with the Taliban leader, Mullah Mohammed Omar. He may also have taken refuge somewhere inside southern Afghanistan. But, absolutely, the view of people here is that his options are very, very limited -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Thank you very much, Nic Robertson. And Nic will have much more at the top of the hour in his special report, "LIVE FROM AFGHANISTAN."
Meanwhile, in the U.S.-led military campaign, Marines operating out of Camp Rhino in southern Afghanistan are on heightened alert and have been involved in several clashes. U.S. forces have attacked armed Taliban fighters fleeing Kandahar while others have given up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GENERAL TOMMY FRANKS, COMMANDER, U.S. CENTRAL COMMAND: We have seen the surrender of a great many Taliban forces inside Kandahar. We are not yet sure. We do not yet have a sense of comfort that there is stability in the city. And I don't expect that we will have a sense of comfort for perhaps two or three days.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: There's been no signs of the Taliban supreme leader and the commander of the U.S.-led campaign says he does not know where Mullah Mohammed Omar is.
Meantime, U.S. warplanes continue to pound the hills and caves around Tora Bora where Afghan opposition fighters clashed with followers of al Qaeda's Osama bin Laden.
So how does the United States go about getting its hands on the Taliban and al Qaeda leaders? Should Iraq be the next target in the war against terrorism? Earlier, I spoke with Senator John McCain here in the CNN WAR ROOM.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
Senator McCain, thanks for joining us. Welcome to the CNN WAR ROOM. And I want to begin right away with the news of the day, the fall of Kandahar. Does this mean it's all over?
MCCAIN: Well, I think it's a major achievement and a major milestone. Clearly, it's not over until we have eliminated al Qaeda and also bin Laden has been either killed or captured. But it is the last stronghold. It is a major achievement and incredible testimony to our leadership and most of all the men and women in the military who are doing a job that exceeds everyone's expectations.
BLITZER: As we speak right now, the leader of the Taliban, Mullah Mohammed Omar, he's on the loose. He's gone. The -- Hamid Karzai, the leader of the Pashtun opposition that's now been designated as head of an interim government -- he says they want to bring justice to Omar, but they don't know where he is.
MCCAIN: And I think that that's going to be a problem of tracking him down. I'm sure that he's doing everything he can to make himself invisible. But I also think a little money goes a long way in that part of the world and I hope that we are able to apprehend him. I know that that's our goal.
BLITZER: Will this not been seen as a success if Osama bin Laden is still on the loose?
MCCAIN: I think that the president has made it very clear that either the death or capture of bin Laden is a critical part of this effort to combat terrorism. And I think he's -- I'm absolutely in agreement with that. We either have to have evidence of his death or his capture in order to continue to move on this war on terrorism.
But again, as he has pointed out, we still have not ended this conflict that we are in. And there's other nations that harbor terrorists that we are going to have to hold responsible.
BLITZER: And the next stage in Afghanistan presumably will be some sort of international peacekeeping force. Should the American public be prepared for a long-term U.S. military involvement on the ground in Afghanistan?
MCCAIN: I don't think that is absolutely necessary. A United States presence in the form of AID and many other programs is necessary. I think this is an ideal situation for the United Nations, but particularly an ideal situation for the Turks. They're respected. They're a healthy military organization. They can bring in other countries that are in the region as well as Europeans. And I think the United States' presence can be minimal.
BLITZER: John Walker, the American Taliban fighter, the 20-year- old was found in Mazar-e Sharif at that prison uprising. James e- mails us from Huntsville, Alabama: This 20-year-old American who fought with the Taliban must have known he was fighting with a group which advocates the destruction of America. Treason for sure.
MCCAIN: Well, that certainly is apparently the case. I do believe that, in deference to the fact that he's an American citizen and his parents obviously are still in some way responsible, he's still a minor in many respects, we ought to look at exactly what he did, what he didn't do, where his training was, what his involvement was I think before we make a decision.
But being an American citizen gives you certain protections, but it also makes you liable to certain charges such as treasonous activity. So I think, you know, rather than rush to judgment on this young man, we can have our opinions and that is distaste -- obviously that's the mildest I can say if he's involved -- but let us see exactly what he did and let the Justice Department and others take a position on this and us do that when we are better informed.
BLITZER: You were among 10 members of Congress to send a letter to President Bush this week saying that Iraq should be the next target. Among other things you wrote this: As we work to clean up Afghanistan and destroy al Qaeda, it is imperative that we plan to eliminate the threat from Iraq. We believe we must directly confront Saddam sooner rather than later.
MCCAIN: I think what we mean is that exactly that. As Afghanistan winds down and we recognize that there's still a lot to be done in Afghanistan, that we should then make preparations to do what's necessary to remove the threat of Saddam Hussein as a clear and present danger to the United States national security.
BLITZER: Let me interrupt for a second.
MCCAIN: Yes.
BLITZER: Sooner rather than later. Does that mean within day, weeks? Is there a precise timetable you have in mind?
MCCAIN: No. I guess what we are saying is also we believe that there are other nations that present challenges as we all know, Sudan, Syria Somalia, et cetera. But Iraq is the only one that apparently has developed weapons of mass destruction, is working on the means to deliver them, and poses a clear and present danger. No expert that I know, including Mr. Butler, who has been on CNN many times, the former weapons inspector, doesn't agree that they have the weapons that -- that Saddam Hussein has the will to use them. So, and of course, there's evidence of ties to terrorists and terrorist organizations. So I don't believe anyone believes that he is not a threat to United States national security.
BLITZER: Although those experts, like Larry Korb who was on this program last night, a former Pentagon official during the Reagan administration, say it's a lot different. Iraq is a lot different than Afghanistan. Listen precisely to what Larry Korb said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LARRY KORB, FORMER ASSISTANT DEFENSE SECRETARY: If you want to go after Saddam, you better make sure that you have a coalition to support you because just militarily it won't be easy. And the idea that some of these opposition groups in Iraq are anywhere near like the Northern Alliance, I don't think holds up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MCCAIN: I think he makes a legitimate point. But I would also respond by saying, one, Iraq is far weaker militarily than they were in 1991. I believe that we, if I may be so bold, need to have a sort of phased engagement here. First, demand, as the president has, the return of the inspectors. That's just asking Saddam Hussein to comply with the materials of the agreement.
BLITZER: For three years, they've said no.
MCCAIN: Absolutely, but we are in a different position now. And he is facing a very different situation.
BLITZER: But, let me interrupt for a second. Let's take a look, militarily speaking -- I want to put up on the screen a map showing where the U.S. has potential air bases that could be used in a military kind of strike against Iraq. And if you take a look at the air bases, the critical ones, in this area right around here, a lot of them may not be available this time. Turkey up here might be available. Iraq is, of course, right over here. But it's by no means clear the Saudis are going to participate in this kind of strike.
MCCAIN: Well, we have a lot of coalition-building to do, a lot of work to do. I think it's interesting that the conventional wisdom when this conflict started with Afghanistan was that there would be huge up rising in Pakistan, that Musharraf was in danger of being overthrown, the Arab street was condemning what we did. That rhetoric has all changed. It's dramatically shifting because of our success.
I think that there would be a period of patient coalition- building, but we are the rider and the coalition is the horse, if I may partially quote Bismarck. And as long as Saddam Hussein presents this threat to our national security, then we are going to have to act. And, again, it doesn't have to be a precipitous, military outbreak. I think that it can be done in a phased manner, but Saddam Hussein has to understand that we can't abide his continued defiance of agreements that he made and overwhelming evidence that he wants to acquire and use weapons of mass destruction against us, as well as his support of terrorism.
BLITZER: All right, Senator McCain, stand by. We still have some more to talk about.
When we return, today is the the 60th anniversary of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, a day that lives in infamy. How will history compare that day with September 11? I'll ask Senator McCain. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back to the CNN WAR ROOM. I'm continuing our conservation with Senator McCain.
Senator McCain, a new CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll takes a look at December 7, the day the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, September 11, of course, most recently -- asked the American public which will have a greater impact on U.S. history.
Look at this: 72 percent said September 11, 25 percent said Pearl Harbor, December 7. Is that because Americans have a short memory?
MCCAIN: I think because they feel the clear and present danger that is challenging us today. I would, perhaps, put myself in the twenty-some percent because, not only because of the threat that we faced at that time from Nazi Germany and Japan, but also the outcome. The United States emerged as the world's superpower, and there was two of them, and now we've emerged. But the events of World War II really shaped the 20th century in a way that I'm not sure that this war on terrorism. I do not understate the danger and the threat. But I also think that the World War II was significant as far as the history of the world is concerned, perhaps in greater measure than this one will be. BLITZER: David Broder wrote a column in the "Washington Post" in which he made the similar point. He said, this time there has been no such summons to service. President Bush has urged Americans to live their normal lives, to hit the stores for Christmas shopping and to spend their tax rebates.
You were a little boy on December 7, 1941. Your dad was in the Navy, a submarine commander. You remember that period very well. Quite a different -- quite a contrast.
MCCAIN: And the United States emerged -- in 1941, the United States was still an isolationist nation. The American -- America did not want to be involved. We didn't want to be entangled. Pearl Harbor, December 7, thrust us onto the world stage. We went from a nation that, militarily, was very weak to the strongest power in the world with an understanding that we were now the guardians of peace and democracy and freedom throughout the world, an incredible obligation.
It had begun to be passed to us by the British, in their own view of the world, in a way. But we, following World War II, emerged as a nation ready to combat a new challenge and obviously that was the Soviet Union, which we won and now put us into a world which primarily is at peace with this huge exception of these threats of terror to the United States of America.
But one other small point -- the G.I. Bill. The G.I. Bill educated an entire generation of millions of Americans and changed America so much for the better. The Marshall Plan changed the world so much for the better.
BLITZER: And I think we are too close to September 11 to have a precise understanding of what the historic impact of that is going to be.
MCCAIN: I think so.
BLITZER: Senator McCain, thanks for joining us.
MCCAIN: Thanks, Wolf.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: December 7, America's infamous date. We'll look at the ceremonies marking the 60th anniversary of Pearl Harbor. Plus, parallels to the September 11 attacks. All of that when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back.
President Roosevelt called it a day that will live in infamy, and for six decades it has. The 60th anniversary of the bombing of Pearl Harbor was marked with a solemn ceremony at the U.S.S. Arizona Memorial in Hawaii today. And President Bush took part in a ceremony aboard the aircraft carrier Enterprise in Norfolk, Virginia. Drawing parallels to the current war on terror.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: What happened at Pearl Harbor was the start of a long and terrible war for America. Yet out of that surprise attack grew a steadfast resolve, that made America freedom's defender. And that mission, our great calling continues to this hour.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: The president is one of many people comparing December 7, 1941 and September 11, 2001. CNN national correspondent Bruce Morton looks at the similarities, and the differences.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRUCE MORTON, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: At the D-Day Museum in New Orleans they are honoring:
FRANKLIN D. ROOSEVELT, FRMR. PRESIDENT: December 7, 1941, a date which will live in infamy.
MORTON: An they talked, the veterans and their heirs about that time and now. Was September 11 this generation's Pearl Harbor. World War II historian Stephen Ambrose sees similarities, a country bitterly divided then over a great question.
STEPHEN AMBROSE, U.S. HISTORIAN: Is America going to get into this war or not? And it caused a lot of divisiveness in the United States. December 7, everybody was united. We are all in this together.
MORTON: This time a bitterly close presidential election, divisions over taxes, over Social Security. And then:
AMBROSE: We saw those planes go into those Twin Towers, and it brought us together. In exactly the same way, we became a united people. I was surprised at how much the American people yearned for that feeling of unity.
MORTON: Other similarities, nobody thought the Japanese fleet could attack Pearl Harbor. Nobody thought Osama bin Laden could turn passenger jets into flying bombs and bring down the Twin Towers.
But there were differences, too, of course, Pearl Harbor mobilized the country, Americans enlisted, got drafted, women poured into the work force, Rosie the Riveter was a household name. Kids collected scrap metal. Americans were asked to sacrifice, most did willingly. Some foods and gasoline were rationed. This time war and recession arrived together in many and many young people worry about what to do with their lives. Act naturally, our leaders say, travel, spend money, but be alert. (on camera): And one thing more. I was one of those kids collecting scrap back during World War II, and I never met anybody grown up or child who wasn't sure America would win the war.
This time Americans expect to win in Afghanistan, to kill or defeat bin Laden. But they don't know, because they haven't been told, where the war on terror will go next. And ending terror completely may not be possible, it's been around for a very long time.
Bruce Morton, CNN, New Orleans.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: Thank you, Bruce. And that's all the time we have tonight. Please join me Sunday on "LATE EDITION." Among my guests, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz and Senators Trent Lott, Joe Biden and Chuck Hagel; that's Sunday at noon Eastern.
Until then, thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.
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