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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

Bush Administration Delays Release of Bin Laden Tape

Aired December 12, 2001 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: (AUDIO GAP) thorough and accurate prior to releasing something to the world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: We'll discuss the bin Laden tape, and other late developments with Dr. Jerrold Post, a former CIA psychiatrist who's profiled Osama bin Laden, U.S. Representative Saxby Chambliss, from the House Intelligence and Armed Services Committees, and former state department counter-terrorism official Larry Johnson, as we go into the WAR ROOM.

Good evening. I'm Wolf Blitzer reporting tonight from Washington.

The Bush Administration has delayed at least for another day, the release of that video tape of Osama bin Laden reportedly bragging about his role in the September 11 terrorist attacks. We now expect it to be released tomorrow. But there were other major developments today in the war in Afghanistan.

A U.S. Air Force B-1 bomber went down over the Indian Ocean. The four crew members were rescued and they're fine. We'll have complete details shortly. But we begin in Afghanistan, and the assault on Tora Bora, still going strong in the air, but pausing briefly on the ground as anti-Taliban forces offer al Qaeda a new surrender deal.

CNN's Christiane Amanpour is live in Kandahar. She joins us now with details -- Christiane.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, we regularly see the vapor trails of aircraft flying overhead towards Tora Bora. And obviously there has been an incredibly intense pounding of that area by U.S. fighter bombers over the last couple days. There was, as you say, a deadline to surrender that came and went. And now, Eastern Alliance people, those fighters that are fighting on the ground against the Tora Bora cave complex, say they are going to offer another demand, that the people holed up there, hand over, surrender, Osama bin Laden and his top lieutenants or face further assault.

They are saying, according to reports, that the Eastern Alliance would allow other members who are holed up there, the lesser Taliban and al Qaeda operatives to move away if they gave up Osama bin Laden and his top officials. We have no way of knowing whether or not this demand is going to be met.

Meantime here, in Kandahar, U.S. forces prepared to move their forward base from Capm Rhino, we are told, over here to the city airport, the Kandahar airport. That is the information we are getting here on the ground by officials who are now in control of Kandahar, the Afghan officials who have take ever over the city since the weekend.

We have seen obviously much evidence of U.S. special forces in the town. We have seen them in pickup trucks, we have seen them with various officials of the new administration in this town, and we have been told that they have already been at the airport, special forces, preparing it and lookina and investigating what is going on.

In any event, word we are getting is that the Marines might move at some point from Camp Rhino to the airport here in Kandahar. At the same time, of course, the political movements still continue. Hamid Karzai expected in the capital Kabul to meet with the new members of the interim government ahead of the inauguration of that government on December 22 -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Christiane, as you know, officials here are skeptical of a report in the "Chirstian Science Monitor" that Osama bin Laden some 10 days ago, may have fled to Pakistan. They say they have reason to believe he is still in Afghanistan. What are you hearing from people on on the scene in Afghanisn about the whereauts of Osama bin Laden?

AMANPOUR: Well, it's always difficult to pin this down, because there have been so many of these reports throughout this air campaign, but the latest from the Northern Alliance, they believe, I have heard officials quoted. and I have heard them telling us here, including people here, that they believe he is still in Afghanistan.

In terms of going to Pakistan, it must be said that the Pakistani officials are quite worried about that border because it is a very long border. It's the quite porous, they have stepped up surveillance both on the ground and in the air, including with helicopter gunships over the last few days, to try to catch and intercept any al Qaeda operatives or any senior Taliban leaders.

But they do point a couple of things: One, that it is a very nebulous border. There are so many people on both sides of that border in the sort of cross-Pashtun zone who have sympathies with the Afghans, with the Afghans, with the Taliban, with Osama bin Laden, that they are very conscious, that it is potentially a porous border. They are stepping up surveillance and most people, officials still believe that he is in Afghanistan.

BLITZER: Christiane Amanpour, reporting live. Thank you very much.

And this note, Christiane will have much more at the top of the hour in her SPECIAL REPORT: LIVE FROM AFGHANISTAN. Now let's go over to the Pentagon and the latest on the crash of that American B-1 bomber in the Indian Ocean. Our military affairs correspondent Jamie McIntyre has more on that -- Jamie.

JAMIE MCITYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, it's the first loss of a fixed-wing aircraft and it came not a result of hostile fire, but of an accident.

Today at the Pentagon, we got a first hand account from the pilot of the B-1 bomber and the military personnel who rescued him and his crew.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): Once criticized as a Cold War relic, the non- stealthy B-1 bomber has become a workhorse of the Afghanistan war. On Wednesday, a B-1 left its base on the British island of Diego Garcia for the 4,000 mile bombing run over Afghanistan.

Pentagon sources say it developed mechanical problems about 100 miles out and tried to return to make an emergency landing. Air Force Captain William Steele was pilot.

CAPT. WILLIAM STEELE, U.S. AIR FORCE (voice-over): We had multiple malfunctions, the aircraft was out of control, and we all had to eject.

MCINTYRE: The plane was at 15,000 feet, and 30 miles from land.

STEELE: I wasn't scared until I was actually in the chute on my way down, because at the time of the accident, I was just trying my best to save the aircraft and the air crew and do my job.

MCINTYRE: A KC-10 refueling jet was flying nearby, and heard the distress call.

MAJ. BRANDON NUGENT, KC-10 PILOT: The pilot in the water apparently saw our lights and shot a flare. And when we saw that, we were extremely excited about that. And then shortly thereafter, Captain Dali (ph) was able to establish radio contact with the co- pilot of the downed aircraft. MCINTYRE: While the plane circled above, and the four crew members bobbed in the warm waters of the Indian Ocean for about two hours, a U.S. Navy destroyer raced to the area at top speed, only to find the ocean treacherously shallow.

CMDR. HANK MIRANDA, COMMANDING OFFICER, U.S.S. RUSSELL: We brought the ship as close as possible to where we thought the aircraft or the downed pilots were. And we had to put our boats in the water to actually make the recovery, about seven miles away from the ship.

MCINTYRE: Navy Lt. Dan Manetzke headed up the small boat rescue crew. LT. DAN MANETZKE, U.S. NAVY: Basically, I think, they were just as happy to see us as we were to see them.

STEELE: This is Captain Steele. I have to say, I got to disagree a little bit on that last point. I think we were much happier to see them than they were to see us.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE: The crew suffered only minor injuries, cuts and bruises. Captain Steele described the ejection as the most violent thing he's ever felt. He said he is pretty sore but he is ready to fly again as soon as the Air Force will send him back in battle -- Wolf.

BLITZER: And Jamie, on that videotape of Osama bin Laden reportedly confessing to his role in the September 11th attacks, we know that once the administration releases it, it will be released over at the Pentagon, which is where you are. What are the thoughts of officials at the Pentagon about the release of this videotape?

MCINTYRE: They had hoped to release it today. In fact, the White House had asked the Pentagon to releas it today. And the Pentagon has been working all day to make sure it's got its translation ready. But it became clear in the course of the day that they weren't going to have it done before late tonight. They have decided to put off the release until tomorrow. Pentagon spokeswoman, Victoria Clarke, said it was simply a matter of wanting to get it right.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VICTORIA CLARKE, PENTAGON SPOKESWOMAN: The quality of tape is poor. The picture is not great. This is not a professionally produced videotape. The audio is very poor. Evidentally, even if you are a fluent Arabic speaker it's very hard to hear some of the things. So we want to be very careful that we have an accurate translation of those parts that we can.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCINTYRE: The actual release of the tape may be somewhat anti- climatic. You heard it is not very good quality. It is hard to hear. U.S. officials have already described it in pretty good detail and the Pentagon says it has always been convinced bin Laden was behind this, but somebody out there has any doubts, they say this tape may erase them -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon, thank you very much.

Joining me now here in the CNN WAR ROOM, three guests: Georgia Republican Congressman Saxby Chambliss. He is the chairman of the House subcommittee on terrorism and homeland security. Larry Johnson, a counterterrorism expert formerly with the State Department and the CIA. And Jerrold Post, who helped develop the field of political psychology and is an expert on psychological profiles of terrorists. Thanks to all of you for joining us. Congressman Saxby, you have actually seen this videotape. How compelling is it? If there are some skeptics out there, will they be convinced?

REP. SAXBY CHAMBLISS (R), GEORGIA: I don't think there is any question, but once you see the tape it will erase any doubt in anybody's mind. And the White House is right, the quality of this tape is very poor. It's a homemade tape. It is very difficult to hear the words that are being spoken, but it's pretty clear from the translation that we have received that it will erase any doubt in anybody's minds.

BLITZER: Do you think all those skeptics who are in the Muslim world and the Arab world who have been conspiracy minded and think this is all a U.S. plot, if you will, are going to come around and support the United States?

LARRY JOHNSON, COUNTERTERRORISM EXPERT: No. Look, we still have people who believe there was a conspiracy to kill JFK despite multiple congressional investigations, and other evidence to the contrary. So, this one videotape is not going to solve that. I think what it will do, though, is for the mainstream, the moderates within the Arab- Muslim world, are going to see a new side of bin Laden -- he is really a user. He is a cowardly user of people.

He asked people to die for the cause. He's not willing to die for his own cause and he lies to folks, doesn't even tell them they're going to commit suicide. So I think, once they see this they'll realize that he's really more of a loser than they anticipated.

BLITZER: Dr. Post, you teach at George Washington University, here in Washington, you've done a profile, a psychological profile of Osama bin Laden -- what will we learn, presumably, from this tape that we don't already know about him?

JERROLD POST, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY: I think this last point, that Larry emphasized, particularly his laughing about having manipulated individuals who thought they were doing a conventional hijacking that they were going to their death, this really has to shake the faith of anyone who is ambivalent, who's still seeing him as a hero, and including lower-level members of his own group. Can you really trust this leader who says he is a hero of the al Qaeda freedom fighters when he's laughing cynically and manipulating them.

BLITZER: So presumably it's one thing, Dr. Post to get suicide bombers who know they're going to die on these missions. It's another thing to be devious and tell people their going to be on a -- a not necessarily suicide mission, to get them involved. Is that what you're saying?

POST: Well, more over, those who are going to their death who are committing ishtashad (ph), martyrdom in the serious vow, prepare themselves for this. There is a religious anointment. There is getting at peace with themselves, and he deprives them of doing that. It's really quite sacrilegious. BLITZER: Congressman Saxby Chambliss, talk to us about that particular parts of the tape when he sort of brags that some of these 19 hijackers, who were killed in the various crashes, didn't even know they were on a suicide mission?

CHAMBLISS: Well, there has been some speculation that they may not have known exactly what sort of mission they were going on. And again, the evidence is pretty clear here. But I think Larry makes a good point. You know, we as Americans are going to be look at this date and say gee whiz, nobody can believe anything else. But the people who don't want to believe it, I don't care how strong it is there, they're simply not going to believe anything other than a plot of -- some American plot, maybe. But it's pretty convincing.

BLITZER: Larry, we have a questioner, an e-mailer from Toronto. Sharon e-mails us this question: "How does the military know this tape is not a set-up?"

JOHNSON: I think it's very unlikely that it's a set-up, because to go through. Number one, I don't think we know the full source of it, as far as -- and that's not going to be public. I think one of the reasons for the delay has to do with how the tape was attained, most likely from a source within that they have been trying to protect. I think that's number one, but if you are going to do a set- up, you are going to do it more professionally, you're going to put it together. This -- from what I understand, and I've not seen it, it comes across more as sort of a home movie. You catch somebody in a candid camera moment.

BLITZER: The audio is apparently very bad, the video is very bad. There's about 20 minute section of this one hour videotape that's totally extraneous, it has nothing to do with Osama bin Laden talking. Is it going to be confusing to the viewers out there.

CHAMBLISS: No, the audio is very bad, but it -- it won't be confusing. The translation is what's critical. And there is some problem with the translation. That's why the White House wants to make sure it's right.

But, you know, there's one thing that Larry raised, at one point he raises about the source of the tape. And that is a concern to me on the release of this tape, because if the source of the recovery of this tape is discovered, then obviously, there's some folks who may be in jeopardy. And that's another reason for concern about releasing the tape.

BLITZER: Are you worried about the release of it? Do you not want the administration to release the tape?

CHAMBLISS: Well, I think the administration is frankly in a position now where they may not have a choice. I think there's been such a widespread reporting of it, that they may have to, and the contents have been pretty public over the last couple days. So there may not be any real reason not to, but I think there are reasons why we ought not once again publicize this scumbag Osama bin Laden. And if you do anything to make that guy a hero in the eyes of anybody in the world, then it's not the right thing to do to release any public document that shows that.

BLITZER: And that's a good point that Congressman Chambliss makes, Dr. Post, that some people watching this videotape and they watch Osama bin Laden talking about all of these developments, they could come around and say, you know, he's right.

POST: Well, for those who need to do that, they will, and I quite agree with you Larry -- and I'll put my professional certification as a psychiatrist behind this. That those who want to believe he isn't responsible, who also want to believe he's a hero ---

BLITZER: Those who hate America to begin with?

POST: Right. The other part of the tape, as it's been reported, that I find striking is his exultation at the scope of the destruction. There wasn't just the top floors of the World Trade Center, but the entire collapse -- and surely Allah, he says, must be with me to have done this. And that he exults in the number of innocent casualties, and the Koran makes no exception for innocent casualties. And that he exults in this is quite striking

BLITZER: And this other notion, Larry, you are expert in this field, that he -- presumably one of the reasons the administration didn't want us to show the al-Jazeerah tape interviews with him, if they were interviews in fact, was the he could be sending along codes, messages, activating sleeper cells out there. Is that an issue in this particular case?

JOHNSON: I don't think it's an issue in this case. And I think he's ability on that front is a little over-stated. I'm familiar with the training that our pilots go through in order to have that kind of ability, and it's nothing you learn overnight. It requires some time and some discipline. In this particular case, because it's put together the wait it is, I don't think that's an issue. I think it goes more to the issue of if we have a source that provided this, we want to be able to protect the source.

And part of the reason -- I see really two reasons in the delay. One, you want to give some time for the source to be protected. Number 2, if you remember TWA 800, we had experts arguing for weeks over a one sentence phrase that the pilot made, and the recording was pretty good.

BLITZER: Arabic is a nuanced...

JOHNSON: Yes. So...

BLITZER: ... language.

JOHNSON: ... this we've got an hour -- you know they could be arguing until next July, perhaps.

BLITZER: Stand by, we are going to have more on the tape when we come back. We have to take a quick break.

Also, he's the first person charged in direct connection with the September 11th attacks, and he's case will be heard in federal court -- not before a military tribunal, is that the right decision? Our guests will weigh in on the case against Zacarias Moussaoui when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back to our CNN WAR ROOM. Congressman Chambliss, you know about the case of Zacarias Moussaoui suspected of being involved in the September 11th attack. The first individual indicted formally by the administration, the Justice Department only yesterday. Listen to what Senator Joe Lieberman said today about the decision not to try him before a military tribunal, listen to this:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOE LIEBERMAN (D), CONNECTICUT: This guy, to use the parlance of the regular criminal courts of the United States, is a big fish, and I fear that the decision to try him in the federal district courts of the United States, with all rights of evidence and rules of evidence and the rights of due process, may let this big fish get away.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: He says if there was ever a case of a military tribunal it's this guy. If not him, who?

CHAMBLISS: I happen to agree with the Senator Lieberman on that issue. I think that even though, while I have great confidence in the criminal justice system and our federal court process, this guy is not a U.S. system. He is the perfect one to start off with in the military tribunal process.

And this is going to be a security nightmare. And it has the potential for the public to see the acts of this guy and for reaction among the public to be something that is not going to be pretty. I think there is every reason in the world for him to be the first one tried in a military tribunal.

BLITZER: Larry Johnson, there are procedures that classified information can be kept secret even in an open trial as this is the case, but how worried are you about this?

JOHNSON: After looking through the indictment, I suspect they are going to be able to make the case without having to go into the issue of classified sources. I think the key criteria ought to be, if you are going to jeopardize sources it ought to be in a military tribunal.

In this case, I think, because they are building a conspiracy case, they are going to be able to will rely on a lot of information that has been collected here in the United States, not necessarily from overseas. It looks like they have at least one witness that is cooperating that -- implied in the indictment, so I think when they get to court -- when you look at the indictment, it's pretty thin. The conspiracy is there but the proof I think, they are holding the cards back.

BLITZER: Dr. Post, switching gears for a moment, you have done some research. What happens if Osama bin Laden were to die? What happens to al Qaeda then?

POST: For most charismatic terrorist organizations, the two that come most prominently to mind, are Sindera Laminosa of Peru, headed by the charismatic Guzman (ph), the PKK of Turkey, headed by Oshalan (ph) . When the leader is captured, that's the end. It's a mortal wound.

This is a very different organization. Bin Laden is more like the chairman of board with Zawahiri as his CEO, who manages things day-to-day, is reputed to be at least as charismatic and apocalyptic as bin Laden, and I think the leadership has really switched really quite seamlessly.

Having said that, there were reports of Zawahiri being killed last week. If the top leadership echelon is eliminated, then I think what you may have is a devolving to the semi-autonomous terrorist groups that were present in the first place. But the end of bin Laden is not the end of al-Qaeda and terrorism.

BLITZER: A sobering note. Dr. Post, thank you for joining us. Congressman Chambliss, thanks for joining us. Larry Johnson, always good to have you on the program.

Thank you and just ahead, details of a plot to attack a U.S. mosque and the offices of a United States congressman. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back once again. Let's check the latest developments. Los Angeles investigators say they have foiled a plot blow up an Arab and Muslim target in southern California. Last night the FBI arrested Erv (ph) Rubin and another suspect, Earl Krugel, two leaders of the militant Jewish Defense League. They are charged with plotting to bomb Muslim targets, including the King Fahd Mosque in Los Angeles and the offices of an Arab-American congressman, Darrell Issa.

In the Middle East more violence. Israeli authorities say Palestinian gunmen in West Bank set off explosives and fired on a bus killing 10 Jewish settlers and injuring 30 others. Israeli jets responded swiftly, hitting Palestinian targets both in Gaza and the West Bank.

The Palestinian Authority now says it will close offices of Hamas and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad.

And the American Airlines pilot whose plane hit the Pentagon was buried today. Fifty-one year-old Charles Burlingame was laid to rest today at Arlington National Cemetery with full Navy honors. The former Navy pilot was initially denied his own plot at Arlington, but his family protested and the Army secretary reversed the decision. That's all the time we have tonight. Join us tomorrow at 5 and 7 p.m. Eastern. Until then thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. "CROSSFIRE" begins right now.

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