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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports
Is Osama bin Laden Hiding in Tora Bora?
Aired December 13, 2001 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Now on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS: "America Strikes Back."
Osama bin Laden, in his own words.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, U.S. GOV. TRANSLATION)
OSAMA BIN LADEN, AL QAEDA LEADER: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) ... then he said those who were trained to fly didn't know the others. One group of people did not know the other group..."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Outlining the plot.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, U.S. GOV. TRANSLATION)
BIN LADEN: ... the iron structure of the building and collapse the area where the plane hit and all the floors above it only. This is all that we had hoped for.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Underestimating the destruction. Chuckling at the outcome. Our experts will analyze the words and images.
The fight for Tora Bora. Is this where bin Laden will be found? Are these kids a target of terrorism? Evaluating the threat to Texas schools.
Hello, I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. An extraordinary day in "America's New War." From the beginning, the Bush administration told the world it had evidence that the September 11 attacks were carried out by Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda terrorist network.
Today the most convincing piece of evidence played out in the court of public opinion. A videotape showing bin Laden talking and laughing about the plot, in such detail that many in the administration call it a smoking gun. We'll have extensive coverage this hour, including extended excerpts and analysis from a man who knows all about bin Laden and his al Qaeda network, Ahmed Rashid, the author of the best-selling book, "The Taliban." I'll talk to him right after Martin Savidge gives us today's latest developments -- Marty. MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Thanks, Wolf. Let's take a look right now at what is going on. Osama bin Laden says the damage done to the World Trade Center is greater than he expected. Bin Laden speaks out on videotape. It was discovered in Afghanistan and released today by the Pentagon. Some have called it a smoking gun. In a U.S.-provided translation, bin Laden says he did advanced calculations to determine the impact of burning jet fuel on the massive Trade Center towers. We'll have much more on what bin Laden said, and reaction.
The father of one of the hijackers is quoted as saying the tape is a farce. Mohamed Atta is described on the tape by bin Laden as the person in charge of directing the plot. Contacted in Egypt by the Associated Press, Atta's father called the tape a forgery, a farce, and a fabrication.
In Afghanistan, the United States has dropped heavy bombs around the mountain stronghold of bin Laden's al Qaeda militia. Reports called the bombing relentless. On the ground, Afghan fighters resume their attacks after a second pause failed to produce an al Qaeda surrender. An Afghan commander is quoted as saying al Qaeda's top leaders are trying to flee. The Pentagon says it believes that bin Laden is still in Afghanistan.
A short time ago a federal judge in New York ordered Zacarias Moussaoui sent to Virginia to be tried in connection with the terror attacks of September 11. Moussaoui was indicted two days ago on six conspiracy counts. We'll have more on this story as well.
Also today, President Bush is being criticized for pulling out of a treaty with Russia. Russian President Vladimir Putin calls that move a mistake. The nearly 30-year-old treaty is considered to be the cornerstone of arms control. Senate majority leader Tom Daschle says backing out of the treaty could prompt other nations to break treaties with Washington.
Those are the latest developments. Now back to Wolf in Washington -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Thank you very much, Marty. There's still the chance it was a calculated bit of bragging, of fiction to further his legend. If not, what Osama bin Laden told the men gathered around him strongly suggested he was deeply involved in the events of September 11.
We have much to talk about this hour. We'll get to all of that in just a moment. First, CNN's David Ensor.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAVID ENSOR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Recorded in early November, the tape shows Osama bin Laden with Sheik Sulayman, a visitor from Saudi Arabia. Over dinner they laugh and celebrate the attacks, with Bin Laden saying the death toll far exceeding his fondest hopes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, U.S. GOV. TRANSLATION) "We calculated in advance the number of casualties from the enemy, who would be killed based on the position of the tower. We calculated that the floors that would be hit would be three or four floors. I was the most optimistic of them all. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) due to my experience in this field, I was thinking that the fire from the gas in the plane would melt the iron structure of the building and collapse the area where the plane hit and all the floors above it only. This is all that we had hoped for."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ENSOR: The complete collapse of the towers was something not even bin Laden, who once worked in his family's construction business, could predict. Repeatedly on the tape bin Laden makes clear he helped organize the attacks. He names Mohamed Atta as being in charge of the hijackers, and says many of them did not know until moments before that they would die on that day.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, U.S. GOV. TRANSLATION)
BIN LADEN: The brothers who conducted the operation, all they knew was that they have a martyrdom operation and we asked each of them to go to America but they didn't know anything about the operation, not even one letter. But they were trained and we did not reveal the operation to them until they are there and just before they boarded...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ENSOR: Throughout the tape, bin Laden and his guest and others are clearly in a jovial mood, praising Allah and talking about the joy they and others felt when they heard their plot had succeeded so dramatically. Bin Laden speaks explicitly of knowing in advance when the attacks would come.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, U.S. GOV. TRANSLATION)
BIN LADEN: We were at (UNINTELLIGIBLE) when the event took place. We had notification since the previous Thursday that the event would take place that day. We had finished our work...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ENSOR: There is also a chilling suggestion that additional attacks may be planned. But it comes from bin Laden's friend, Shaykh Sulayman.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, U.S. GOV. TRANSLATION)
SHAYKH: No doubt it is a clear victory. Allah has bestowed on us... honor on us... and he will give us blessing and more victory during this holy month of Ramadan. And this is what everyone is hoping for. Thank Allah America came out of its caves. We hit her the first hit and the next one will hit her with the hands of the believers, the good believers, the strong believers. By Allah it is great work... (END VIDEO CLIP)
ENSOR: U.S. officials also point to bin Laden saying that not even his spokesman, his close aid, knew the attacks were coming until after he'd heard about it on the radio. That underscores, officials say, how compartmentalized information has been in al Qaeda, and thus what a difficult intelligence target it has been -- until now.
David Ensor, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: Joining me now, two experts, David Isby, he's a special correspondent for "Jane's Intelligence Review," and Hisham Melhem. He's the Washington bureau chief for the Lebanese newspaper, "As- Safir."
Hisham, let me begin with you. You speak Arabic, you understood the Arabic. First of all, the translation, I take it, was pretty good.
HISHAM MELHEM, "AS-SAFIR" NEWSPAPER: They were clear Arabic words. They were clear phrases. I had difficulty listening to complete sentences in Arabic. So, I understood the full context when I compared the Arabic and English. You had to have the help of the English translation.
But there were clear references enunciated by Osama bin Laden that shows his advance knowledge of the bombings. There is a great deal of details that no person who is trying to brag could come up with. And what struck me, in addition to that, was the celebratory tone. This is a bunch of people, in many ways, celebrating the death of many civilians. And he was very interested in reaction in Egypt and in Saudi Arabia. And was hoping for a popular reaction to support him after the attacks.
BLITZER: David, what impressed you?
DAVID ISBY, "JANE'S INTELLIGENCE REVIEW": I think the phrase of the (UNINTELLIGIBLE), and this, you know, sort of comparing to things of Hitler's table talk. And again, the light-hearted tone, the joking of the horrible, terrible events. But also, I think that's going to be very much its impact in the Islamic world.
People throughout the Islamic world, Egypt, Morocco, Bahrain, who have suffered from terrorism, whatever their attitudes may be towards the government of the day realized this is not our friend, the deliverer. He's one of the people who inflict pain for the benefit of a few people at the mosque, like this Saudi radical.
BLITZER: We have an excerpt. I want to play this excerpt. It underscores, specifically, some of the detail which he was interested, Osama bin Laden. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, U.S. GOV. TRANSLATION) BIN LADEN: ... we calculated in advance the number of casualties from the enemy, who would be killed based on the position of the tower. We calculated that the floors that would be hit would be three or four floors. I was the most optimistic of them all. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) due to my experience in this field, I was thinking that the fire from the gas in the plane would melt the iron structure of the building and collapse the area where the plane hit and all the floors above it only. This is all that we had hoped for.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: He and his family have long been in the construction business, so he knew something about construction. He demonstrated it right there.
MELHEM: If you are in the business of construction, you now the business of destruction. And it's very clear from his calculations that he thought about it. He though about the fuel oil and the intensity of it, and how it's going to melt the iron, and how the upper floors will collapse.
Definitely, this kind of knowledge, this kind of -- you don't expect that from someone who is bragging. This is detailed knowledge, just as he provided other details. My only problem, Wolf, with reaction in the Muslim world, because of the poor quality of the audio, some people are going to say this may have been doctored or this is not clear evidence, or it's not very convincing evidence.
But any rational, fair, descent person listening to this, Muslim or non-Muslim, cannot escape the conclusion, that this is the closest thing we have for a smoking gun about his culpability in this thing. We need, also, the Arabic script. We asked the Department of Defense today, apparently had only portions of Arabic in written form. They wanted to rush the English version first.
I think tomorrow there will be excerpts in Arabic, and they'll probably be provided to Arab satellite televisions throughout the region, so they can use them when they air the Arabic edition without any English transcript. And I think in that case, you probably continue to debate taking place now in the Arab and Muslim world.
BLITZER: Let me ask David briefly, for a man as concerned about security as Osama bin Laden is, here he is in early November speaking openly about his own role in all of this, and allowing a video camera to record it all.
ISBY: A major security lapse. But sometimes, you know, even the worst evil people let their mouths run away with their brains. I think this is just an example of this. And certainly, shows the prevalence of the video cameras as the recorder of our time.
BLITZER: Let me bring in Ahmed Rashid. Ahmed, who's the author of the best-seller book "The Taliban," is a real scholar, someone very familiar with al Qaeda, the situation in Afghanistan. I was privileged to spend sometime with him last year in Pakistan in his home. Ahmed, give us your take of this videotape of Osama bin Laden.
AHMED RASHID, AUTHOR, "THE TALIBAN": Well, I think the first thing that is quite extraordinary, is that even in the beginning of November, when this tape was made, there seems to be Arab militants coming in and out of Afghanistan quite freely. One of these characters in the film, Shaykh, has arrived recently. And there is a lot of talk about people coming and going.
Now, that, to me, shows that the U.S. blockade, if you like, and the neighbors' cooperation in stopping militants coming and going has really not been very effective. And right up until the end, Arabs were coming in. And clearly now, some of these militants can also escape using the same route.
I think the other very important factor is the -- how keen bin Laden is to see the reaction in Saudi Arabia, his home country, and this whole idea of global jihad, where America may be the target and the victim, but where he wants to overthrow the regimes in the Arab world -- really, I think gives global jihad, you know, a clear -- indication, as it was, that he wants to destroy countries in the West and in the Muslim world.
BLITZER: Ahmed, I want you to listen to an excerpt from the videotape earlier today, an excerpt that shows what the hijackers themselves knew and didn't know about what they were engaged in. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, U.S. GOV. TRANSLATION)
BIN LADEN: The brothers who conducted the operation, all they knew was that they have a martyrdom operation and we asked each of them to go to America but they didn't know anything about the operation, not even one letter. But they were trained and we did not reveal the operation to them until they are there and just before they boarded the planes....
BIN LADEN: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) ... then he said: 'Those who were trained to fly didn't know the others. One group of people did not know the other group... (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: If you were watching closely on that, clearly he was laughing at the end, as if they tricked some of those hijackers into getting on those planes, not knowing that they were going to be engaged in a suicide mission. How will that play in the Muslim world?
RASHID: Well, I think it's going to shock a lot of people. I mean, people well know that when recruits join al Qaeda, they take an oath of loyalty to bin Laden, which also involves the fact that you're willing to sacrifice your life for al Qaeda, the cause, and bin Laden himself.
But I think, you know, to be able to hear him kind of be extremely cocky and confident explaining this, and then also to have a bit of a giggle at the end of it, as saying -- almost kind of trying to say that, well, you know, these people are so loyal they're willing to do anything for me, I think is going to be very shocking for a lot of people.
BLITZER: Ahmed, assuming that Osama bin Laden is captured or killed, does that necessarily mean that al Qaeda and that whole network is done with?
RASHID: Well, I think, you know, al Qaeda has always been divided into two halves. One is the half which is based in Afghanistan, fighting for the Taliban. And they will certainly be eliminated. But the tens of thousands of al Qaeda militants, usually well-educated, middle class people who have come into Afghanistan, trained and then left, and settled down in many foreign countries, these cells, of course, you know, are going to remain.
BLITZER: Did this tape, if there are some that still doubt the involvement of Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda in the September 11th terrorist attacks, if some of the Arab world or Muslim world still doubt it, will this convince them that they were wrong?
RASHID: Well, I think it's going to be very important, what the attitude the leaders in the Muslim world take, the Arab world, in particular. As far as I remember, although the Muslim world is supporting the war against terrorism, I think only President Musharraf in Pakistan has actually said that I believe bin Laden carried out the bombings, and I have been shown proof of that by the Americans.
We had no such categorical statements by the Saudis, by the Gulf Arabs, I think, even by Egypt and some of the north Africans. And I think what this tape should demonstrate to these leaders is that there is little doubt that bin Laden did carry out these bombings, and that he should be condemned, you know, I think more directly by some of these regimes.
BLITZER: Ahmed Rashid, the author of "The Taliban," the bestseller -- a wonderful book. Thank you very much for joining us on your visit to the United States from Pakistan.
And I want to bring back Hisham Melhem and David Isby to follow up on that specific point, the reaction in some of the more moderate Arab states, that you heard Ahmed talk about.
How is the reaction, if it's going to change at all, from Saudi Arabia, Egypt or north African states?
MELHEM: Ahmed is correct. The attitude of the Arab leaders would help sway public opinion in the Arab world. The king of Jordan, King Abdullah, was in fact denouncing Osama Bin Laden. The foreign minister of Saudi Arabia, Saud Faisel, also was close to emphatically also denouncing him and essentially saying that he was responsible, also.
But Ahmed is correct. The leaders of the Arab world should speak forcefully -- not only the political leaders, but the religious leaders. The Shaykh Balazhar (ph), which is one of the greatest Islamic institutions in Cairo, spoke, criticized this kind of suicide attacks. He didn't take on bin Laden forcefully and directly, and I think religious leaders in the Arab world should be urged to do that.
And unless Muslims do it themselves, you are not going to convince some of the multitudes, people who have no access to the Internet or CNN, or may not watch the tape in total. So that is a very important point.
BLITZER: David, a lot of concern going into the release of this tape, whether there could be some clues that could undermine sources and methods involved in how the U.S. obtained it, that could undermine the U.S. intelligence community. Did you see anything at all in that videotape that would suggest that some sources or methods could be compromised?
ISBY: Well, probably those have been edited out, even things like the identity of the machine that was used, or places as to when and where. As they said, what we've seen is just an excerpt of an hour-long tape.
BLITZER: Well, we did see the whole hour tape.
ISBY: But what we just saw here was not the outside scenes, the helicopter scenes.
BLITZER: Right.
ISBY: So I don't know which segment, in particular, the concerns were limited on. But certainly, these other things -- again, the use of a passive signal, certainly this is something which the idea that bin Laden made a signal, left it for the Americans knowing they would find it and put it on television, perhaps doesn't quite jive with the rather simplistic world view we see here.
In fact, their idea of command and control are dreams and visions, rather than well-organized systems. And I think that's also going to certainly hurt his appeal. Plus out of global jihad, which, as you said, educates no children and doesn't bring about social justice -- Just lots of bodies.
BLITZER: All right, David Isby, Hisham Melhem, thanks to both of you for joining us, and Ahmed Rashid, earlier. Appreciate it very much.
ISBY: Thank you.
BLITZER: And this reminder: join me to see the Osama bin Laden tapes in their entirety during a one-hour special report at 7:00 p.m. Eastern tonight, 4:00 p.m. on the West Coast. And check out my on- line column, on the tape, on my Web page, cnn.com/wolf.
Former counterterrorism expert Paul Bremer joins us next to discuss the tape. And find out what kind of intelligence has been gleaned from the tape later this hour when I speak with the House intelligence committee chairman, Porter Goss.
And if bin Laden is captured or killed, what happens to America's war against terrorism? Does the public have the stomach for more war?
And, we shift to another hot spot, the Middle East, and Israel's new stand on Yasser Arafat. Live from Jerusalem next, when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back. We will get back to the Osama bin Laden tape and the war in Afghanistan in just a few moments. But first, there are major developments on the crisis in the Middle East. Israel has declared Yasser Arafat irrelevant and cut off all communication with the Palestinian leader, while carrying out punishing airstrikes on Palestinian targets. CNN Jerusalem bureau chief Mike Hanna joins us now live with details.
What's happening today, Mike?
MIKE HANNA, CNN BUREAU CHIEF, JERUSALEM: Well, Wolf, there's been widespread violence throughout the day. This, in the wake of the Israeli cabinet decision not to have any more dealings whatsoever with Yasser Arafat and the Palestinian Authority. Palestinian leaders say this amounts to a declaration of war. Israel insists that it is not singling out or targeting Yasser Arafat or the Palestinian Authority, but says because those organs will not take action against militants, it will do so.
Well, Israeli took action indeed. It sent air waves, airstrikes against targets in the Gaza Strip. Targets in the West Bank. Among the targets struck were police stations, compounds, buildings associated with the Palestinian Authority. These were the same type of targets that were hit in the West Bank.
But also, among the ongoing Israeli barrage, there were some other areas hit. A mosque in the Gaza City was partially damaged by an Israeli missile. Also damaged was a Quaker school in Ramallah. The Israeli Defense Force says it had no intention of targeting religious institutions, saying that its targets were clearly defined, that is, buildings it says were used to further the aims of militants carrying out attacks against Israeli citizens.
All of this following a Palestinian gun attack on an Israeli bus moving through a Jewish settlement yesterday evening. There, 10 Israelis were killed. And following that, Israel said it will have nothing more to do with the Palestinian Authority. Difficult to see in these circumstances, Wolf, how there can be any form of negotiation, any form of attempt to get a cease-fire in place on the ground.
BLITZER: Mike Hanna in Jerusalem, thank you very much for that report. And for more on the struggle for peace in the Middle East, as elusive as it is right now, you can also get a look at the history of the conflict over there. Just click onto our Web site, cnn.com. For AOL users, the keyword is CNN.
And there's more trouble elsewhere around the world. In India, a deadly attack on Parliament. Five men crashed a car through the building's outer security ring and then set off hand grenades and fired guns. Seven people, mostly policemen, were killed in a lengthy battle before the gunmen themselves were shot dead. The motive for the attack is not clear.
Let's get back to the Osama bin Laden tapes and the latest on that. I'm joined now by Paul Bremer, a former U.S. counterterrorism ambassador, director of the office of counterterrorism.
Thanks so much, Paul, for joining us.
Nice to be back.
BLITZER: The tape that we saw today -- and there's one particularly chilling excerpt from the guest, the Saudi visitor, he was identified as Shaykh. He spoke some words about Ramadan, the Muslim holy month, that it's about to end and there is more to come. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, U.S. GOV. TRANSLATION)
SHAYKH: No doubt it is a clear victory. Allah has bestowed on us... honor on us... and he will give us blessing and more victory during this holy month of Ramadan. And this is what everyone is hoping for. Thank Allah America came out of its caves. We hit her the first hit and the next one will hit her with the hands of the believers, the good believers, the strong believers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Clearly wants more victories in this month of Ramadan, which ends this weekend. Is that what put the U.S. on a higher state of alert?
PAUL BREMER, COUNTERTERRORISM EXPERT: If you look back at the bin Laden crowd, they have tried to do attacks sometimes in Ramadan, or around the Christian and Jewish holidays, which are all coming together here in the next 10 days. And so this is certainly a very high threat period, particularly with bin Laden trapped somewhere, we don't know where, and probably in need of showing that he can still strike back.
BLITZER: When you were watching and reading the translation from the Arabic, with his gestures, his moves, as a former U.S. official who is involved deeply in the war against terrorism, almost before it became that fashionable, what was going through your mind?
BREMER: I saw here a man who speaks out of deep, and in my view, deeply distorted religious views, clearly, who has a great and deep sense of historical perspective. He refers in sort of images to the crusades, tot he Ottoman empire, to the -- as he sees it, occupation of the Arabian peninsula. This is a person who has a real sense of history, I think, is distorted.
He has also a very -- paid a lot of attention to trade craft in this attack. He talks about how the terrorists were kept from one other. They didn't all of them know the plan. That's a very good piece of trade craft. Some of them knew they were on a martyrdom operation but they didn't know the pilots. The pilots didn't know who the others were.
There was considerable trade craft involved in this. And then, of course what you see coming through is a deeply evil man, a man who smiles and jokes about the fact that, contrary to his expectations, they actually knocked down these entire buildings.
BLITZER: Was there anything at all that surprised you, particularly in watching that videotape?
BREMER: I think the most surprising thing you touched on in your earlier segment, which is why did he allow this to happen? Here is a fellow who has been quite attentive to his security, who has tried to control his appearances in the press, and yet lets someone come from Saudi Arabia, apparently, to simply make a film. And then make no effort, apparently, whenever he left that guest house, although he may have left in a hurry, to destroy the film or take it with him.
BLITZER: The only thing I can imagine is that they wanted to use this videotape, the Saudi sheik who had come by, for recruiting purposes, to show the leader, the revered leader of the al Qaeda network, and to use that, maybe make copies of it, to recruit more followers.
BREMER: Well, that also raises another point that comes out of this tape, which is the degree of activity that is going on in Saudi Arabia, which has sort of been unveiled to us like the dance of seven veils here over the last couple of months.
There is obviously -- they talk about several other sheiks, presumably in Saudi Arabia, including this mystery guest, who have been delighted, one of them who apparently delivered a sermon at the very time of the attack, which suggests he might have known of the attacks in advance. We have a real problem in Saudi Arabia, a very, very severe problem.
BLITZER: And Saudis are supposedly a very close ally of the U.S. There is an enormous political, military, economy relationship at stake there.
BREMER: We have to be very careful how we proceed with Saudi Arabia. This is not a case where we simply go blundering in and, in a very public way, throw our elbows around and tell the Saudis what to do.
We have to be careful that we don't bring into being the thing which is our horror and bin Laden's dream, which is an Islamic republic of Arabia. And his vision for the Islamic republic of Arabia we have seen in Afghanistan. He said: That's what I want to do in Arabia.
And that would be a disaster for us.
BLITZER: Did you notice in "The New York Times" today that reporter who is in Riyadh saying that, even though President Bush asked all of America's friends and allies around the world to mark the third month at 8:46 a.m. precisely and play the national anthem or do some other moment to commemorate that, if you will, to remember what happened on September 11, they didn't do that in Saudi Arabia.
BREMER: It seems to me that is a big mistake by the Saudi government. Those are relatively easy things to do. And they ought to be doing public things to try to assure the American public that they really are on our side. There are real problems in Saudi Arabia. That's obvious.
BLITZER: Paul Bremer, thanks for joining us.
We've seen the videotape. Now what information can the U.S. government gather from Osama bin Laden's statements? The chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, Porter Goss, will join me next.
And, as bombing continues near Osama bin Laden's suspected hideout, is the United States any closer to finding him?
And following yesterday's news of a threat against schools in Texas, how safe are the nation's children?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: A dramatic day today: Osama bin Laden seen and heard on videotape.
Joining me now to discuss that, the head of House Intelligence Committee, the chairman, Porter Goss, Republican of Florida.
Mr. Chairman, thanks for joining us.
You saw the earlier. We saw it today. The impact of this, in your assessment, is going to be what?
REP. PORTER GOSS (R), Florida: Well, let me put it this way: It doesn't get any better the more times you see it. It's just gets more and more offensive. Frankly, it's the ultimate arrogance.
I think the motivation of why this tape was made was probably for recruitment purposes. He is an illegitimate person. And he trying to sell an illegitimate religion to a bunch of young people who are able to be manipulated and duped. And I think that's what we are seeing. And to see that face of bin Laden here, now I think gives it all away. It is the smoking gun.
I think it is a very useful document. I think I'm glad it was released. I don't think there is a danger to sources and methods in it. And I think we are seeing for the first time just how despicable these people really are.
BLITZER: And the notion that this could be used for recruitment, he obviously knew there was a video camera in there recording him.
GOSS: Oh, sure. Sure.
BLITZER: The purpose was the sheik, the visitor from Saudi Arabia, was going to go out and use this?
GOSS: That is a disreputable shaykh in the first place, obviously.
But the idea is to try and give legitimacy to this that -- the president refers to him as the evildoer. The evildoers, nobody helps the evildoers in the language of the Koran. I think it comes out of the chapter on the feast, the surah, I think. And it basically is, nobody will help the people who are the evildoers.
And they are trying to overcome this image that they are the evildoers. So they are trying to appeal to other radical shaykhs around and create this image, sort of this bow wave, that somehow there is some legitimacy, that this is real Islam. It's not. It's a fake.
BLITZER: He showed that he was pretty media savvy, interested in details. Here is another excerpt. I want you to watch listen to this excerpt right now:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OSAMA BIN LADEN, AL QAEDA LEADER: They were overjoyed when the first plane hit the building, so I said to them: be patient.
The difference between the first and the second plane hitting the towers was twenty minutes. And the difference between the first plane and the plane that hit the Pentagon was one hour.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Mr. Chairman, is there any possibility that he is just bragging and gloating and really wasn't involved, but, ex post facto, he decided to claim credit?
GOSS: Absolutely not. I think this clearly demonstrates that he had foreknowledge. It certainly is the picture of all the other evidence the intelligence community has brought along. I think that it is very clear that he is capable of trying to dupe people, as he apparently even duped some of the people who carried out these despicable acts.
He didn't even tell them where they were going. But if you follow the whole thing here and look at this whole tape, certainly a number of times, it adds up. He had foreknowledge. And he is taking great delight in it. And he is taking great delight in it for recruiting purposes, is the best guess I can give you.
BLITZER: But there's some ominous warnings in there about additional terrorist attacks, that this war is going to continue. There are more mountains to climb, or whatever phrase they used. How concerned should the American public be right now about more terrorist attacks?
GOSS: Well, I think they should be concerned that we need to wipe out the whole international terrorist network of al Qaeda. And we are doing that systematically.
Sometimes, I get asked the question: What if he escapes from Afghanistan? He is not going to escape from the hunt to erase the international terrorist network. We are going to get him. So it doesn't really matter whether we get him in Afghanistan or someplace else. We are going to get him. We're going to get his top lieutenants, because we have employed our intelligence capabilities and all of the other capabilities we can find out there.
Plus, our friends are doing it. And we find we have more and more friends, because, unlike the evildoers, people are coming to us and saying: These kinds despicable acts are not good for an organized globe. And we are not going to tolerate it.
BLITZER: So, so far, we are seeing action, military action, in Afghanistan. But what's the next target, in your assessment, without specifics? But a lot of people are pointing to Iraq, even though there is apparently no smoking gun there. Where will we see this war against terrorism unfold next?
GOSS: Well, the question of where you will see it and where it's actually happening are two different things. It's actually happening right now around the world in many, many ways unseen. We have a great number of people involved in a great number of countries.
We do not have what I call the CNN optic out there of the blunt force being applied directly so that we can watch the bombing in Tora Bora, Kandahar, Kabul, or whatever it is. But we do have activity going on tracking down these people and shutting off their sources of supply and money.
BLITZER: OK, chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, Porter Goss, thanks for joining us.
GOSS: My pleasure.
BLITZER: And the fighting, of course, does continue.
CNN's Ben Wedeman is near the scene of the battles in the Tora Bora mountain region of Eastern Afghanistan.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The second deadline for al Qaeda fighters to surrender has come and gone -- Eastern Alliance commander Hazrat Ali telling CNN that the talk of a surrender was merely a ruse, an attempt by al Qaeda to buy time for its leaders to flee the area.
He also says that the Eastern Alliance has resumed its attacks on al Qaeda positions, this claim confirmed by radio traffic between members of al Qaeda, who said they were busy repulsing an attempt by Afghan fighters to infiltrate their positions. Those same fighters said that, as far as they are concerned, they are not interested in talk about surrender, that for them it's just a case of martyrdom or victory. The same al Qaeda members said that they would turn, in their words, all attackers into dust. Meanwhile, U.S. warplanes kept up their bombing of al Qaeda positions during the night, using 15,000-bomb daisy-cutter bombers in the mountains behind me. The bombing continued well into the day -- approximately every half hour more bombs falling on the mountains. It appears, in this case, it may be a fight to the death for the al Qaeda network.
I'm Ben Wedeman, CNN, reporting from the Tora Bora region of Eastern Afghanistan.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: And what about terrorism, more terrorism here in the United States? We will have more on that shortly.
But next, there were also some funerals today for two of the Green Berets killed last week in a bombing accident in Afghanistan. The family of Staff Sergeant Brian Cody Prosser held private and public services for him in Bakersfield, California. And Sergeant Daniel Petithory was laid to rest in Cheshire, Massachusetts.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Suspected Osama bin Laden conspirator Zacarias Moussaoui today made his first court appearance since his indictment on Tuesday on charges related to the September 11 terrorist attacks.
CNN's Deborah Feyerick was in the courtroom and joins us now live.
Deborah, tell us about the hearing.
DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, this was a removal hearing. Zacarias Moussaoui will be taken to Virginia. That's where he was indicted. And that is where he is going to be tried.
He is the man suspected of being the missing hijacker, the fifth person who was supposed to be on board United Flight 93. That's the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania. All the others had five-men skyjacking teams. That plane had only four.
Now, Moussaoui shuffled into court. His hands and his feet were shackled. His beard was considerably longer and thicker. He looked much different than the picture that we have seen. The charges against him right now are very serious. Four of the six carry the death penalty. They include conspiracy to commit acts of terrorism, pilot planes to be used as weapons of mass destruction, as well as the murder of government employees.
His lawyer, Donald DuBoulay, contends that Moussaoui didn't do it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD DUBOULAY, ATTORNEY FOR ZACARIAS MOUSSAOUI: Our position is that, at every opportunity, we are going to assert the rights as a human being that he deserves, and that he is charged with very serious matters. And we are going to vigorously defend it. Or whoever represents him will vigorously defend him. And so, at every step of the way, at every opportunity, we are going to do what we have to do to protect him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FEYERICK: Moussaoui was arrested back in August when some people got suspicious he had been taking flight-simulator courses. Moussaoui could be moved as early as this evening, taken to Virginia -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Deborah Feyerick, in New York, thank you very much.
Meanwhile, in Texas, all over that state, parents and schoolchildren are on edge -- this after the governor, Rick Perry, said the FBI warned him of a vague and unsubstantiated threat against the state's schools.
CNN's Ed Lavandera is in Dallas. He's covering the story.
Ed, tell us how the word of this threat became public in the first place.
ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, about three days ago, we are told by FBI officials that a foreign government which hasn't been specified took a man in custody. And that person, while in custody, alluded to the possibility of a threat against a school or schools in the state of Texas.
And from there, that government passed the message along to the FBI here in Texas -- the FBI officials telling us that they felt compelled to pass that information along to state officials yesterday and Tuesday night. That information came to the Department of Public Safety here in Texas. And they scattered that news throughout the state. And by late yesterday afternoon, the governor of the state of Texas, Rick Perry, felt compelled as well to make the announcement public and to let parents know.
Throughout the day here in Texas, we haven't seen any evidence that this information has scared parents or kept parents from keeping kids away from school. There aren't -- the state of Texas isn't able to keep up daily tabs on totals on exactly school attendance. But we have been able to call around several of the major school districts here in Texas and do kind of our own polling. And the major school districts in Texas say they aren't seeing any signs that the parents kept their kids out of school today -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Ed Lavandera in Dallas, thank you very much.
In Boston, meanwhile, Authorities Logan Airport say the discovery of improperly-trained screeners from a fired security firm caused the shutdown of a terminal this morning. The Federal Aviation Administration temporarily closed terminal B and called back several planes that had already been boarded. All the passengers were rescreened. The security checkpoint was staffed by a firm that's scheduled to halt operations at the airport tomorrow because of its allegedly poor record.
There's bad blood between the FDA and the American Red Cross. We'll tell you what the dispute's about -- also, how the FBI plans to use the Postal Service to help investigate the anthrax investigation.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Now checking these stories making today's "Newswire": The nation's blood supply is called into question by the government. The FDA says the American Red Cross has not fulfilled a promise to improve quality control of its blood program and is asking a judge to hold the Red Cross in contempt of court.
Many New Jersey and Philadelphia residents will soon be getting mail from the FBI asking for help in the anthrax investigation. The agency is casting about for leads as it searches for whoever mailed four anthrax-laced letters in the Trenton area. Meantime, traces of anthrax were found in a U.S. diplomatic mailbag in Vienna.
In Los Angeles, the star of the film "Girl Interrupted" had her shopping and her life interrupted by police last night. Winona Ryder is free on $20,000 bond after her arrest at a Saks Fifth Avenue store in Beverly Hills. She was charged with shoplifting and possessing pharmaceutical drugs without a prescription.
As the hunt for bin Laden intensifies, how will the public feel about continuing the war on terrorism once he is captured or killed? Bill Schneider checks the public's pulse when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Let's go to New York and get a quick preview of "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE," which begins, of course, at the top of the hour -- Lou.
LOU DOBBS, "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE": Wolf, thank you.
The world's most wanted man reveals the attacks on the World Trade Center were more even successful than he had hoped. We will check the reaction around the globe to that videotape.
And, in Afghanistan, the hunt for bin Laden continues tonight, while the al Qaeda is running out of room in which to fight. We will have a live report from Kandahar. We will be talking with CNN military analyst General David Grange.
And the crucial holiday shopping season is here. And retail sales fell sharply last month. I be talking with economist Lakshman Achuthan about the health of this economy -- all of that, a lot more at the top of the hour. Please join us -- now back to you, Wolf.
BLITZER: Thank you very much, Lou.
And if the United States captures or kills Osama bin Laden, it's safe to say that millions of Americans will, in some way, rejoice.
And then, as CNN political analyst Bill Schneider reports, they are likely to ask: What's next?
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST (voice-over): One day, possibly soon, we'll get Osama bin Laden. What happens then? President Bush has made his intentions clear.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Our war on terror begins with al Qaeda, but it does not end there. It will not end until every terrorist group of global reach has been found, stopped and defeated.
SCHNEIDER: But remember back to 1991 when the Gulf War ended? Americans cheered and celebrated: It's over, we won. Let's get back to normal.
There was no pressure from the public to finish the job and overthrow Saddam Hussein. Instead, there was pressure to deal with the country's economic problems. Could the same mood of public exhilaration take over on "Osama day"? will the country say, "We got the bad guys; now let's get back to normal? Or will Americans want to go after more bad guys?
The public tells poll-takers they're ready to fight a long-term war against terrorists all over the world. Success in Afghanistan feeds the country's ambition. So does the fact that the U.S. was attacked. Even if Osama is eliminated, there are still a lot more bad guys out there.
PAUL WOLFOWITZ, DEPUTY DEFENSE SECRETARY: Independent of September 11, there is a serious problem, with Iraq having expelled the inspectors and continuing to develop weapons of mass destruction.
SCHNEIDER: On the other hand, Americans have a powerful desire to get back to normal. The economy is already becoming the country's dominant concern. Much depends on leadership. Trusted figures will urge the U.S. to go on with the war, not just the president.
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: We believe that there are other nations that present challenges, as we all know: Sudan, Syria, Somalia, etcetera. But Iraq is the only one that apparently has developed weapons of mass destruction. It's working on the means to deliver them, and poses a clear and present danger.
SCHNEIDER: Other voices will urge caution, Republicans as well as Democrats.
SEN. TRENT LOTT (R-MS), MINORITY LEADER: We better make sure we have the facts before we go to the next step, whether it is Iraq or anyplace else.
SCHNEIDER: The best bet? Americans will be split over continuing the war. The day we get Osama, a new debate will begin. (END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHNEIDER: It was easy to mobilize opinion against Osama bin Laden. His wrongdoing was monstrous and tangible. The threat from Saddam Hussein is more theoretical. It's what he is capable of doing. On the other hand, hawks argue, isn't it dangerous to wait and see what Saddam Hussein might do?
BLITZER: Bill Schneider, thank you very much.
And I'll be back in one hour with a special report, "The Bin Laden Tape." We'll replay the tape in its entirety, 7:00 p.m. Eastern.
Until then, thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. CNN's coverage of America's new war continues with "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE." That begins right now.
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