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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

Where is Osama bin Laden?; What's Next in the War on Terrorism?

Aired December 17, 2001 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS: THE WAR ROOM: His mountain hideout has been pulverized, his fighters are fleeing. So where's Osama Bin Laden?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REAR ADMIRAL JOHN STUFFLEBEEM, PENTAGON SPOKESMAN: Maybe he still is there, maybe he was killed or maybe he has left.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: What's next in the war on terrorism? The president says he won't tip off America's enemies.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: They just need to know that so long as they plan and have got plans to murder innocent people, America will be breathing down their neck.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Should Saddam Hussein be pulling the collar tighter around his neck? Are hawks and doves fighting their own battle over Iraq? We'll go to Afghanistan and the White House.

And I'll speak live with former CIA Director James Woolsey, investigative reporter Seymour Hersh, and the former chairman of the National Commission on Terrorism, Paul Bremer, as we go into THE WAR ROOM.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

BLITZER: Good evening. I'm Wolf Blitzer reporting tonight from Washington.

Top U.S. officials are blunt in assessing the whereabouts of Osama Bin Laden. They now admit they just don't know. Late last week, they were optimistic the al Qaeda leader was effectively surrounded in the mountains of eastern Afghanistan. But today, they are no longer that confident.

Indeed, the search for Osama Bin Laden and other al Qaeda fighters in the Tora Bora mountains goes cave to cave. Left behind in many of those caves, piles of weapons. With more, CNN's Nic Robertson joins us live from Tora Bora -- Nic.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, the intense bombing that has characterized the hunt for Osama Bin Laden in the last couple of weeks has essentially come to an end. We've -- we haven't heard a bomb here -- fall here for almost 24 hours.

We were able on get up into the mountains yesterday and take a look at some of those caves. We found some small excavations in the hillside where clearly people had -- they were designed for people to get in to -- to escape heavy bombings and other, smaller cave systems. Again, these lower in the mountains. We haven't been able to get high into the mountains where reportedly some of the bigger caves are.

But in those smaller caves we were able to see ammunition piled high, higgledy piggledy. Strewn in these caves almost to the ceiling in some of them. Now, it was Chinese-made heavy machine gun rounds that filled one cave, and also mortar rounds. Surprisingly, what we found outside of those caves was no sign of resistance from the al Qaeda fighters.

It appears that when those complexes and training facilities were bombed, that they merely took off into the mountains. And this is an indication of the problems now in trying to find Osama Bin Laden.

Reportedly, there have been as many as 2,000 al Qaeda fighters in the mountain -- in the mountains. And so far the Eastern Alliance fighters who have been in here on the ground capturing al Qaeda fighters when they come across them have only really found a handful so far.

They paraded some of them to journalists yesterday. One was injured, obviously had a head injury, bandage round his head. Another one had a bandage on his foot. They all looked fairly dejected and didn't really want to look at -- look at the journalists. But we were able to speak to some of them privately.

Some of them said that they believed Osama Bin Laden had been in the region as late as Saturday, but they said they said they just didn't know where he was now.

And certainly that's what are hearing from Eastern Alliance commanders. They don't know where Osama Bin Laden is. He could be further in the mountains.

They are very, very extensive, these mountains. He could be hiding out there, he could be deeper in a -- in an extensive cave system. And also he could have gone further south, across the border into Pakistan.

The border is trying to be sealed, if you will, by Pakistani forces who are operating out of their tribal region on that frontier in Pakistan.

But it is a long border. It is mountainous. There are a lot of trees. And it is, apparently, from all indications now, a very, very difficult prospect to try and round up all these other al Qaeda fighters who have been reportedly in the mountains. And of course, Osama Bin Laden -- Wolf.

BLITZER: And -- and is there an assessment out there from these Eastern Alliance fighters, the U.S. military on the ground, how long it will take to secure the Tora Bora region, irrespective of finding Osama Bin Laden?

ROBERTSON: The Eastern Alliance fighters came down from the mountains a little over 24 hours ago, essentially saying there job was done, that they'd overrun the caves, that as far as they can see Osama Bin Laden wasn't in the caves.

Military analysts would suggest that it will take a lot longer for special forces who are still in the mountains to do a really thorough assessment. And we believe that when we went into the mountains yesterday to see the -- the few caves we saw that a small team of probably British special forces were coming down off the mountain.

Perhaps -- and I say perhaps because they are -- we are not able to see these special forces in -- in action here -- perhaps they'd already inspected the caves we'd seen.

But it -- and analysts do suggest that it will take a lot longer -- some of these systems are extensive, some of them -- some entrances have been blocked. It will take time to get in them. Perhaps some are booby trapped.

So the special forces who have been very much involved in the front line of guiding in some of the precision bombs that have targeted some of the camps are now going to be engaged, likely, on the ground trying to assess, you know, if all the caves are clear, if Osama is hiding or what -- what exactly is left behind. Wolf.

BLITZER: Nic Robertson, thank you very much for all the very good reporting. And this note. Nic will have much more at top of the hour and once again at 11 p.m. eastern in his special reports "LIVE FROM AFGHANISTAN".

His whereabouts are unknown, but President Bush today vowed that Osama Bin Laden will be caught. Let's go live to our Senior White House Correspondent John King for more on what they're saying at the White House -- John.

JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: And as the search continues, Wolf, the president stressing again that patience may be required here. He said Osama Bin Laden might be captured or killed tomorrow, or it might take a month.

The president said again today it could take a year. And as he said that, the president conceding in a conversation with reporters here at the White House earlier in the day, that the U.S. intelligence reports now -- when comes to Osama Bin Laden's whereabouts -- are inconclusive. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: We have all kinds of reports that he's in a cave, that he's not in a cave. That he's escaped, that he hasn't escaped. There's all kinds of speculation. But -- but when the dust clears, we will find out where he is and he will be brought to justice.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: And as the search continues in Tora Bora -- where you just spoke with Nic Robertson -- U.S. officials say they also are keeping a very close eye on the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan.

They say Pakistan is cooperating and we are told by senior U.S. officials tonight that there are U.S. special operations forces on both sides of the border watching those al Qaeda fighters trying to escape, trying to determine if Osama Bin Laden is trying to escape as well. Wolf?

BLITZER: John, and what about John Walker, the American Taliban fighter? What's the latest as far as the White House perspective is concerned?

KING: The administration line on Mr. Walker for now is wait and see. He has been moved from Camp Rhino, that Marine base near Kandahar. He is now on a U.S. naval vessel off the coast there. He is being detained right now, being questioned, not only by the CIA but the FBI as well.

U.S. officials say he is of course not eligible -- if he is charged -- for one of those secret military tribunals because he is a citizen of the United States. But the president saying today let him be interviewed. The president himself saying he hasn't read the transcripts of interviews that have already been conducted.

One point, Wolf, the administration does not want a distracting debate here in the United States right now over how this one individual should be treated. The New York mayor, Rudy Giuliani, even saying that if he's found guilty of treason he should be given the death penalty. The administration wants to focus on the war against terrorism, not get involved in a distracting debate over John Walker.

BLITZER: John King at the White House. Thank you very much.

And why has the United States had so much trouble smoking out Osama Bin Laden and Mullah Omar? Joining me now here in the CNN WAR ROOM: former CIA Director James Woolsey; Paul Bremer -- he's a former ambassador for counterterrorism, and the investigative journalist Seymour Hersh of "the New Yorker" magazine.

You can e-mail me some room questions. Go to my Web site, cnn.com/Wolf. That's also, by the way, where you can read my daily online column.

And let me begin with you, Director Woolsey. The optimism seems to have gone away. He was cornered, effectively. Now he seems to have perhaps slipped away. What is your -- what's your assessment?

JAMES WOOLSEY, FORMER CIA DIRECTOR: He may be dead in one of those caves or he may have slipped away. But I agree with the president. We're going to find him. It could -- it could be if he got out into Pakistan. The Pakistanis are looking for him. He is six foot five and not easy to hide among crowds in that part of the world.

I think we'll get him, but it could be weeks to months.

BLITZER: Sy Hersh, I want to put a map up and show that Tora Bora region, how close it is to Pakistan. Here is -- here's this little area where the U.S. and the allied forces were looking for him. This border area right alongside. This is all Pakistan, of course. It's very close. Do you have confidence the Pakistani government will help in the search if he managed to slip across the border?

SEYMOUR HERSH, "NEW YORKER" MAGAZINE: It doesn't matter what I think. What matters is -- I think we have prepare ourselves for the possibility that we may be getting some homilies from Osama Bin Laden from somewhere, you know? Indonesia, someplace. Malaysia. You know, it's -- it's possible...

BLITZER: What do you mean by that?

HERSH: Well, just, he could get out. He could get out. He could be funneled away. There's -- you know, there's certainly a big -- a tremendous amount of supporters in for -- inside the Pakistani intelligence service, for example. There are a lot of people that could funnel him out onto a boat somewhere.

BLITZER: Let me ask Ambassador Bremer, because you know the story quite well. Is there still support in the Pakistani intelligence community for Osama Bin Laden?

PAUL BREMER, FORMER COUNTERTERRORISM AMBASSADOR: I think there probably is some. But you have to remember that Musharraf took the very dramatic step of firing the top people, both in the intelligence service and in the army very soon after the attacks in -- in September.

There are two things to remember about this Bin Laden question. Number one, the war is not about Osama Bin Laden. He is the bad guy that we're all talking, about but he is not the whole thing. There is a lot bigger problem here that we've got to deal with. Secondly...

BLITZER: But the American public's not going to think this is a victory unless he is captured or killed.

BREMER: Well, but it's important for journalists and leaders in our country to make clear that that isn't what it about. It's about more than Bin Laden.

And secondly, we do have him on the run. And we will -- I agree with Jim Woolsey -- we will eventually get him. And it's much harder for him to operate if he is on the run. BLITZER: Director Woolsey, Steve from Spokane, Washington, e- mailed us this question: "Why weren't more U.S. and British forces deployed into the Tora Bora region in order to keep al Qaeda members from escaping? What is the U.S. doing to track down those who may have escaped to Pakistan?"

WOOLSEY: Well, the short answer is I don't know. But to speculate, special forces are relatively limited in number and very highly trained. And they are operating, as I understand it, in other parts of Afghanistan as well, going after pockets and helping the Afghans go after pockets of al Qaeda who are left.

We don't know exactly how many they have up there. I'm sure they are pressing it as hard as they possibly can. It is absolutely remarkable that in three months and a few days from September 11 -- from a standing start, going to the entirely opposite side of the world -- we are effectively involved in the last elements of mopping up after a victory.

And we have had one killed in action from hostile fire, a CIA officer. We have had people killed in action by friendly fire by accident and by -- by accidents. But it really is a remarkable achievement for the American military and intelligence services.

BLITZER: Sy Hersh, a pretty dramatic achievement, you've got to admit.

HERSH: Oh, my God, yes. Who would -- none of us thought it was possible they could do this well that quickly. But there's -- it's not over yet. And not only that, there's a lot of corollary problems. For example, India and Pakistan are now at each other's throats over Kashmir.

BLITZER: And they have nuclear capabilities.

HERSH: And also, it's not clear that -- how many Taliban soldiers who were -- did escape into Pakistan or were facilitated in that escape by the Pakistani military, again.

I think getting Bin Laden clearly -- by the way, I think actually the administration probably is sorry now they focused on him as much as they did in the beginning. It made good publicity and good headlines, but basically, I agree with you, Mr. Bremer. That -- that's not the issue.

But let me just say this: the next step is going to be do something about fundamental militarism -- militarism in Pakistan.

BLITZER: Let me -- let's talk about the next step. Bob from Kalamazoo, Michigan, e-mailed us this question. "In your opinion, which is the most likely area to become the next focus of America's war on terrorism? Somalia, Lebanon, Iraq?" I could list a whole bunch of other places.

BREMER: Well, you could. And we'd all be guessing because none of us are in the government. But my own view is the thing to do next is to go after some of the relatively easy are targets like Sudan and Lebanon, places where I think there's a chance for a really robust diplomacy backed by the threat of military action can bring some early -- early successes.

BLITZER: What do you say ?

WOOLSEY: I wouldn't mind seeing that option at all. We've got to make sure we have enough of the right kinds of ordnance if we are going to go after Saddam Hussein because we need to be able to take out his entire air defenses and own the skies before we start trying to do anything else.

I don't think it is for us on the outside to try to tell the administration January, February, March, April, whatever. But I do think at some point in order to be successful in this, we are going to have to get rid of the -- the Iraqi regime.

BLITZER: Sy Hersh, you have a piece in the "New Yorker" that's out today. A good piece. Among other things you write this, and I'll read it. Put it on the screen. "A senior intelligence official debunked the notion that what worked in Afghanistan would necessarily work in Iraq, as equivalent 'taking the show from upstate New York to Broadway.'"

You don't think the Afghan model necessarily -- finding rebel forces, using paramilitary, going in there with special operations, heavy air -- airstrikes, that necessarily would overthrow Saddam Hussein?

HERSH: The problem is we can do a lot of damage to Saddam Hussein. The question is, what happens next? And we don't have anybody in place or anything in place. We don't have intelligence. We don't have a -- we don't have a force that's capable. There's a lot of concern, a lot of interest. One of the people Jim is friendly with, Mr. Chalabi at the INC, but the government isn't very anxious to proceed in that manner either.

BLITZER: Is he a credible figure, Ahmed Chalabi in the Iraqi National Congress?

WOOLSEY: I believe he, together with his organization, is a reasonable opposition structure to start with. I mean, the INC...

BLITZER: But are they the Northern Alliance that can do to Iraq what the Northern Alliance did in Afghanistan?

WOOLSEY: They are more broadly based than the Northern Alliance because they have Shi'a and Sunni and Kurds all as part of the -- the structure.

They don't have as -- proportional to Saddam's forces, they don't have the forces that the Northern Alliance did because the Taliban had relatively limited forces. On the other hand, the Iraqi military would be extraordinarily vulnerable to American air power.

I think there are pros and cons. And you know, some of people, Wolf, who are now saying, "don't think that Iraq would be as easy as Afghanistan has been" are exactly the same people who were saying just before we moved into Afghanistan, "don't think that Afghanistan is going to be easy as Iraq was in 1991."

Whatever is next, a lot of these people are going to say, "Don't think it's going to be easy. We shouldn't do it."

BLITZER: And just to point in the article that Sy Hersh wrote, you are listed as one of the hawks when it comes to Iraq. That's no great surprise.

WOOLSEY: I think maybe -- I'd prefer owl, but hawk sometimes...

BLITZER: Well, what is your take on that?

BREMER: Well, I think -- well, I think sooner or later we have to confront Saddam Hussein. I don't think there's any question.

But -- and we can't let the best be the enemy of the good. We cannot sit around and wait until we have the ideal replacement for Saddam Hussein. We're not going to have the ideal replacement any more than we had the ideal replacement for the Taliban in Afghanistan.

A lot of this is going to have to be done an the assumption that as a war progresses against Iraq -- which it will do -- we will find the leaders we need. And I think we're just going to have to get with it. I don't know Chalabi so I don't know -- I don't have a view of him one way or the other. But we have to face the fact that sooner or later that Saddam is the threat to security in that part of the world.

BLITZER: Sy, I interviewed Condoleezza Rice yesterday, the president's national security adviser. She said Iraq was a problem before September 11, it's a problem since September 11, irrespective of any smoking gun that may or may not exist connecting the Iraqis to the September 11 attacks.

And one of the reasons: the weapons inspection teams which have disappeared over the past three years. You write in your article in the "New Yorker" -- you say this: "Inside the administration, there is a general consensus on one issue: officials tell me there will be no further effort to revive the U.N. inspection regime in Iraq."

That sounds pretty strange given the commitment to try to get some of those weapons inspection teams going.

HERSH: They can't do it anymore. There's a new regime that's being -- they're working, they're training but they don't have the expertise. Saddam can simply pull the wool over their eyes and pull their pants down. It's clear that that's not going to be a solution. You can send them there, but they're not going to stop his BW or CW -- his chemical or biological warfare work.

So that's a problem. So the answer is not to do that. I'm not sure the -- you used the word diplomacy earlier. You know we -- we're coming out this with a pretty big punch.

BREMER: I was using the word diplomacy in terms of some places other than Iraq.

HERSH: I can't imagine what's so bad about trying to do diplomacy with Iraq, either.

BLITZER: Well, let's pick up that thought. We'll get the former CIA director to weigh in as well. We're going to take a quick break. When we come back, what should the fate of an American caught fighting for the Taliban be? We'll also discuss that. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. Let's pick up where we left off. Director Woolsey, the U.N. weapons inspection teams. Not even bother anymore sending them because they're going to be useless?

WOOLSEY: Well, the president's already done the diplomacy on this. I think he said, "take them in or else." Now, implicitly, I think, in that is "have effective inspections or else."

And even if Saddam let anybody back in -- which I think there are very long odds against -- he's not going to let them be effective. So what we don't want to do is get bogged down in month after month of haggling about exactly what they can see and when they see can it.

They -- because they have two wonderful guys -- Kais (ph) and Butler heading up these teams before -- they got some very useful material. But they were never completely effective because Saddam's people kept them at gunpoint away from the things that were really sensitive.

BLITZER: Sy Hersh, you touch upon this in your article in the "New Yorker." But Bob from San Luis Obispo in California asks this question: "Would it be feasible and militarily advantageous for U.S. forces to move in and occupy land with the Kurds in north Iraq and let Saddam come to us?"

HERSH: Well, that's the idea, actually, that Chalabi has in the south.

BLITZER: Sure.

HERSH: I mean, if you want to do it, that's one way to do it. Once you put them in...

BLITZER: But they would then be very vulnerable to air attack?

HERSH: Look. He's vulnerable, period. And he's not that strong. And we're much, much stronger. And he's -- he's worried. He's passing a lot of messages to the American intelligence community saying he wants to -- even I've heard as far as helping us in the hunt for Bin Laden. He's definitely rattled.

And it seems to me you've got some -- you know, he is secular. We forget this. He is not a fundamentalist. And it seems to me in the list of priorities as we think of where to go next, why you'd want to go after a secular government, that doesn't mean... BLITZER: So you think there are some redeeming qualities characteristic to Saddam Hussein (UNINTELLIGIBLE)?

HERSH: The fact that he is secular, I -- whether it's redeeming or not, it's a fact. And the fact is, it seems to me that -- I could think of much more logical things to do. Come out of here and go after Hezbollah, the Iranian-sponsored terrorist organization.

BLITZER: In Lebanon.

HERSH: Yeah. I mean, that seems to me -- let's go after guys who are doing terrorism today. He's not doing it now. He did. I would see that as a valid argument. And let's see what happens.

BLITZER: Ambassador Bremer, the latest CNN-"USA Today"-Gallup poll asked this question: Will the U.S. be as successful in the war against Iraq as it was in Afghanistan? 66 percent say yes, 26 percent say no.

So the public that the U.S. could get the job done if President Bush gives the order.

BREMER: In fact, I think you had a poll, Wolf, last week that showed that 78 percent of the American people think he would should go after Iraq next. So I think the president has got an opportunity to lead here. I think Sy is right that the situation is more delicate in Baghdad than perhaps we realize. I think with the right leadership and the right strategy, we can accomplish a lot there.

BLITZER: Let's change gears for a second. A lot of interest in the American Taliban fighter, John Walker. He's aboard a USS ship in the Arabian Sea. I want to play a sound bite from what Mayor Giuliani said yesterday about the future of John Walker. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUDOLPH GIULIANI, MAYOR OF NEW YORK CITY: When you commit treason against the United States of America -- particularly at a time in which the United States of America is in peril of attack and further attack -- I believe in the death penalty is the appropriate -- appropriate remedy to -- to consider.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Director Woolsey, among other things you are an attorney. You're a lawyer. So is the death penalty appropriate in -- in this particular case?

WOOLSEY: Certainly in principle it's appropriate, at least as far as I'm concerned. But we may be involved in plea bargaining here. And one of the things you're after in plea bargaining is information. If this man is extremely cooperative and gives a lot of useful information, that ought to be considered in the punishment.

BLITZER: "Newsweek" magazine in the current issue, Sy, says that he not only was involved in Taliban training, but in al Qaeda training as well.

HERSH: Here I go sounding like the, you know, the liberal out here, but he's also pretty -- probably -- he comes from a broken home. He's not a very happy, well child. He's probably very sick. And I could imagine an insanity defense as much as anything else. I would -- would get him treated and looked at very carefully to make sure how balanced he is. He did very crazy stuff.

BLITZER: And Ambassador Bremer, as you well know, there's no shortage of defense attorneys who would be more than happy to represent this guy.

BREMER: Well, some of them are already out on the talk shows. He's clearly violated some laws. There's no question. He violated, at a minimum, the Neutrality Act. He may have committed treason. But as Jim says, this guy may have some useful information for us and that would in any normal criminal case be taken into account in a plea bargain situation. So let's see how this develops over the next couple of weeks.

BLITZER: Do you think that the information that he's providing is in fact already useful?

WOOLSEY: It's hard to say. Some of it looks sort of detailed, at least by press reports, and pretty interesting if true. It seems odd that he might know some of these things. But -- but I think we just have to have the professionals assess how much of it is accurate and -- and useful. It does seem to me that is a consideration here.

BLITZER: And we only have a few seconds. But in the article you wrote in the "New Yorker," there's a very fascinating dance that's going on right now with Iran and the United States. Briefly talk about that.

HERSH: Well, the most interesting thing is that Iran is clearly willing to let opposition groups come, use -- go through its borders into Iraq. So much for the dual containment policy of the Clinton administration.

Iraq is -- Iran is clearly -- as you know it's helping us in the -- it did help us in the war against the Afghans, and they're clearly willing to do things for us. That's one of the principles of the Chalabi group...

BLITZER: Ten seconds.

WOOLSEY: The mullahs are a little worried. They had some big demonstrations there with kids chanting, "Death to the Taliban in Kabul and Teheran."

BLITZER: Really.

WOOLSEY: Yeah.

BLITZER: We'll watch that. We look forward to your next article in the "New Yorker." Sy Hersh, always good to have you on the program. Jim Woolsey, Paul Bremer, thank you very much.

"CROSSFIRE" is just ahead at the half hour. Let's turn to Bill Press for a quick look at what's coming up in the "CROSSFIRE" -- Bill.

BILL PRESS, "CROSSFIRE" HOST: All right, Wolf. Thank you.

Two hot issues on "CROSSFIRE" tonight. Should American Taliban John Walker be treated as a confused young man and released or treated as a traitor and executed? And if Osama Bin Laden is no longer in Afghanistan, where is he? And where do we go looking for him next? On the trail of John Walker and Osama Bin Laden. That's coming up next, Wolf.

BLITZER: Thank you very much. We will definitely be watching.

And when we come back, we'll take another look at all the latest developments, including more on the search for Osama Bin Laden and questions on whether he remains in the mountain region of Tora Bora. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. Here are the latest developments. Osama Bin Laden's location is called a question mark by the defense secretary, Donald Rumsfeld. Prisoners held by anti-Taliban forces say they believe Bin Laden remains somewhere in the cave network of Tora Bora, their supposition that Bin Laden has slipped away from the area.

Three U.S. Marines injured yesterday when one stepped on a landmine at the Kandahar airport have been taken out of Afghanistan for treatment. According to the Pentagon, the most seriously injured lost a leg, another had a head wound, and the third an injury to his hand.

And this just in, an envelope with white powder in it was opened in the offices of Deputy U.S. Secretary of State Richard Armitage this afternoon. Officials say there was only the unidentified white powder in the envelope. No word yet on whether it's a hoax. The return address on the envelope is from Texas.

And that is all the time we have tonight. Please join me again tomorrow twice at both 5:00 and 7:00 p.m Eastern. Until then, thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. "CROSSFIRE" begins right now.

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