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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports
Has the Search for the Taliban's Leader Been Put on Hold?; Where Could Terrorist Sleeper Cells Pop Up Next?
Aired December 18, 2001 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Today on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS: "America Strikes Back."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: It's going to be tough, dirty, hard work.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: The Pentagon says the search for Osama bin Laden will go step by step, cave by cave. And if he's gotten away, a warning.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAUL WOLFOWITZ, DEPUTY DEFENSE SECRETARY: I think any country in the world that would knowingly harbor bin Laden would be out of their minds.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Has the search for the Taliban's Mullah Omar been put on hold? And where are terrorist sleeper cells likely to pop up next? The answer may come from al Qaeda prisoners, as "America Strikes Back."
Hello, I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. What would make a battle- hardened al Qaeda fighter offer information to his captors? In just a moment, the FBI's efforts to put the squeeze on Osama bin Laden's followers.
But first, the latest developments. A warning today from Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. At a NATO meeting in Brussels, Rumsfeld said that September 11 could be but a dim preview of terror attacks to come. Although fighting is dying down in Afghanistan, Rumsfeld says the mission there is far from over.
Afghan militias are pulling heavy equipment out of Tora Bora. It's another indication the fighting there is finished, after al Qaeda's apparent retreat. U.S. forces are said to be searching caves in the region. With still no sign of Osama bin Laden, several officials suggested today he may be dead. More than a dozen enemy prisoners arrive today at the U.S. encampment in Kandahar. Also arriving in Kandahar, a team of Fbi interrogators. One told reporters their primary mission is to gather information that could prevent terror attacks in the future.
Thousands of Capitol Hill staffers and police officers and postal workers will have the option of receiving the vaccine for anthrax or continuing a course of antibiotics. The people affected include those who were closest to the anthrax-tainted letter that was open in the office of the Senate majority leader, Tom Daschle. All have received antibiotics. The vaccine is precautionary. We'll have much more on this coming up.
In the Tora Bora mountains, the weather has turned cold, and so has the trail of Osama bin Laden. Assuming bin Laden was in Tora Bora, he has escaped, he is dead, or he's still in the area hiding out. U.S. commandos still are in the region. So is CNN's Nic Robertson.
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We spoke with some prisoners today coming down off the mountains a couple days ago. They told us that Osama bin Laden was very mobile, that even some of the people they were with wouldn't recognize him. They say they don't know where he is. They think he could have fled to Pakistan, south through the mountains.
That is certainly the view of the Eastern Alliance military commanders here, that the al Qaeda forces have been pushed back by the bombing in the air and by their forces on the ground, pushed back southwards. And they believe that has driven Osama bin Laden back into Pakistan.
However, the mountains are extensive here. It is possible that somewhere in these mountains, in the densely forested in places, Osama bin Laden could still be holding out and he could have doubled back, essentially, and come back into Afghanistan. So nobody really knows. And nobody has any -- even any current evidence that they're sharing with us, at least that they may know where he is.
And the radio transmissions that were quite intensive during the bombing, when the bombing was going on, have essentially dried up. And there is very little, with that regard, that commanders here can point to, saying yes, this is a clue Osama bin Laden is still there. Very little information to go on.
BLITZER: That was Nic Robertson reporting from Tora Bora. As far as the most wanted go, after Osama bin Laden, the Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar may be No. 2. And Afghan officials are beginning to say they believe they know where to find him.
But as CNN's Amanda Kibel reports, they also seem to be taking a pass on trying to hunt him down.
AMANDA KIBEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: In an interview with CNN Tuesday, Kandahar's new intelligence chief, Haji Jul Alia, says his people know where former Taliban leader, Mullah Mohammed Omar, is -- just eight hours away from here, south of Kandahar, in Helmand province, in the district of Bagran.
Now, Bagran is a mountainous, cave-filled area and once it was an al Qaeda stronghold. Jul Alia says this is the perfect place for Mullah Mohammed Omar to hide. But Jul Alia says his administration's priority right now is not to launch a major manhunt for Mullah Mohammed Omar. He says the administration has neither the time, the money, nor the resources to go after Mullah Omar.
However, he stresses that Mullah Omar is by no means off the intelligence radar screen. His people continue to monitor his movements. They know where he is, and this intelligence is being shared with U.S. special forces on the ground.
Their operation, says Jul Alia, remain completely separate. His forces have not been asked to cooperate as yet with the search for Mullah Mohammed Omar, but he says should his forces be called on to assist on the ground, they would be ready to do so.
BLITZER: That was Amanda Kibel reporting from Kandahar.
Meanwhile, eight federal agents have been dispatched to Afghanistan to interrogate enemy prisoners. More than a dozen prisoners arrived today at the U.S. compound at the Kandahar airport. The compound's newly constructed prison is made of corrugated steel, and designed to hold up to 120 people. The head of the FBI's interrogators spoke today with reporters.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOM KNOWLES, FBI SPECIAL AGENT: Our primary goal is to see if we can gather information to try to prevent future attacks against Americans. And then obviously, a secondary role is to try to garnish any information, evidence, concerning the past attacks against us.
QUESTION: The scores of al Qaeda fighters here, that is a pretty potentially rich source of information?
KNOWLES: Possibly could be, if they are willing to talk us to. They can be a hard group, and sometimes it's very difficult to get them to talk to you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Joining me now to talk about the effort to learn something from those prisoners, a former State Department and CIA official, Larry Johnson.
Larry, thanks for joining us. How do you get these people to talk? Obviously, the information these prisoners have may be critical.
LARRY JOHNSON, FORMER CIA OFFICIAL: There are some techniques you can use that aren't going to be considered torture, such as a little bit of sleep depravation. And also, just old-fashioned bargaining and leverage. You get them apart and you try to make them think that some of their compatriots are giving up more information, cutting a better deal than them, and give them opportunity to bargain. BLITZER: They're considered prisoners of war, right?
JOHNSON: Right.
BLITZER: So they're not subject to Miranda rights or anything like that?
JOHNSON: Right. They're not subject to Miranda rights. And they're really not prisoners of war in the classic sense, because under the classic definition, you have to be wearing recognized uniforms, a clear chain of command. These were not a regular army. So we may be going the extra step to treat them under those conventions, but they were not operating under those conventions.
BLITZER: If some of them do have information that could be what they call a ticking bomb, that they know of a terrorist operation under way, a sleeper cell someplace around the world, in the United States, is there some sort of pressure that could be used, short of all out torture, that could get them to talk?
JOHNSON: I think there are methods that can be used. Let me put it this way. I've seen it used against myself and some of my colleagues in training situation. And people were willing to talk in 48 hours. Nobody suffered long lasting, or even short term psychological damage. There are ways to interrogate to elicit that information.
I think the key here is, it's got to be FBI and intelligence community working together. This information, if it stays compartmented, as it has in the past in law enforcement investigations, where folks on the intelligence side aren't aware, it could make it much more difficult to prevent. Because this is not just an FBI effort. This has got to be a total effort of the CIA, the defense intelligence agency, drug enforcement administration. Everyone has to work together.
BLITZER: I know you testified before the Senate today on the search for Osama bin Laden. Now, I want you to listen to what the deputy secretary of defense, Paul Wolfowitz, said earlier today. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WOLFOWITZ: Any country in the world that would knowingly harbor bin Laden would be out their minds. And I think they have seen what happened to the Taliban. I think that's probably a pretty good lesson to people to people not to do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: What do you think about that?
JOHNSON: Amen, Paul. He's got it exactly right. I think what we've seen is, this demonstration of force has sent a very powerful message throughout the Middle East. They understand that the United States is not just talking tough. We're not posturing. We're willing to back up our words.
I think if bin Laden has escaped from Afghanistan to somewhere else, he will be hunted down. What's under way right now is just a very patient search. We're going to look in the caves, we're going to look under the rubble, and we'll look outside. There is money on the table to go get him. He'll ultimately be found and brought to justice.
BLITZER: And why is there increasing speculation right now, do you think, that he may have been killed in one of those massive bombing raids? Is it because, as some intelligence sources have said to me, when he travels he travels with a relatively large entourage that would leave a footprint that U.S. and friendly intelligence services would hear about?
JOHNSON: He's not the kind of guy that likes to just travel with one or two and then show up -- he's not the Howard Hughes, if you will, of radical Islam. This guy has a retinue about him. And while he revels in being a regular guy, he still likes to have the trappings of power with him. So I think the possibility that he may be dead can't be ruled out.
BLITZER: Very briefly, the notion that he may have shaved off his beard, cut his hair, put on civilian clothes, flown out on a private jet someplace?
JOHNSON: If that is true, it is going to completely explode the myth that this guy was some committed Muslim fighter. This was just about him and murder.
BLITZER: Larry Johnson, thank you very much for joining us. Appreciate it very much.
And the Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said today that despite the drop in fighting, the task in Afghanistan is far from over. He referred to what's ahead as tough, dirty, hard work. CNN's national correspondent, Bob Franken, is standing by at the Pentagon. He has more on all of this -- Bob.
BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the United States now faces the prospect in Afghanistan of searching some of the very treacherous caves, dealing with a country that is so saturated with land mines, and of course, having to look around every corner for some disaffected Taliban fighter who blended into the hills and wants to make a career now out of killing the enemy. And the enemy, of course, would be the United States.
So that kind of scenario prompted the defense secretary, who is meeting with other defense ministers, of course, in Brussels, to talk about a job that is anything but done.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUMSFELD: We have reduced the number of areas within Afghanistan where they are likely to be. Those areas are being attacked from the ground by Afghan forces, with the support of coalition forces. They are being attacked from the air. And additional prisoners have been taken today. Additional ground has been covered. And progress continues to be made. But the task is still ahead of us and it should not be considered that it will be accomplished in a short period of time. It's going to be tough, dirty, hard work.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FRANKEN: And it's going to be methodical work, in the Tora Bora area. They're starting to get -- "they" being the United States troops -- are starting to get, from the allies, some of the prisoners that have been taken in the fighting. Some of the more important ones, at least the United States believes they are important, are now being moved away.
Some al Qaeda, 15 of them, have been taken to the new detention facility to the south near Kandahar airport. Five others are now on the Peleliu, which is the U.S. assault ship offshore. Those, of course, include John Walker, the expatriot American who is also in custody there. And the effort to interrogate, Wolf, goes on in earnest. So much so that the FBI has sent over agents for expertise in interrogation, and also of course, to see if there is any information they have which might coordinate with those who have been captured -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Bob Franken at the Pentagon, thank you very much.
I'll have much more assessment on the war in Afghanistan, including a live report from Kabul at 7:00 p.m. Eastern in the CNN "WAR ROOM." And among my guests, the Senate intelligence committee member, Senator John Edwards of North Carolina. Please join me then.
And by the way, you can participate by simply going to my Web site, cnn.com/wolf. Click on "send questions." I will try to get to as many of those questions as possible for our panel. That's also, by the way, the Web site where you can read my daily on-line column.
And as we mentioned, federal doctors could start administering anthrax vaccine to some 75, perhaps many more, Capitol Hill staffers, and perhaps even thousands of police officers as early as tomorrow. Joining us now for some perspective on this story is Dr. Michael Osterholm. He's the director for the Center for Infectious Disease Research at the University of Minnesota. He's also an author of "Living Terrors: A Review of the State of America's Preparedness for a Bioterrorism Attack."
Dr. Osterholm, thank you very much for joining us.
DR. MICHAEL OSTERHOLM, UNIV. OF MINNESOTA: Thank you.
BLITZER: Let's get right to the story of the moment right now, this decision to make available this anthrax vaccine to thousands of postal workers, Capitol Hill staffers, police officers, if they want it, or to continue taking antibiotics, perhaps, for another 30 days beyond the 60-day regimen. What's your take on that?
OSTERHOLM: Well, I think part of what we're experiencing here is really a recognition that we don't know as much about anthrax as we wish we did. As you know, until this recent outbreak, we hadn't had any cases of inhalational anthrax in this country dating back to the early 1970s. And even then, only a very few this entire century.
So what we're really doing is formulating good science policy, kind of on the run. And I think that what the recommendations here, for either extending the time period for which people are on antibiotics, or giving them the vaccine is a very good idea, and really represents the best effort to make sure no one comes down with anthrax as a result of exposures that occurred some 60 days ago.
BLITZER: As you know, that vaccine was a controversial vaccine. Some members of the U.S. military who have taken it believe that was probably the cause, at least, they claim it was the cause of Gulf War syndrome and some other diseases. How risky is taking that vaccine?
OSTERHOLM: First of all, we really have to go back and look at those data from the Gulf War. And none of us will tell that you that people didn't have local reactions then -- they did. Meaning the kinds of sore arms, and so forth, that occur with any number of different immunizations.
But I think the important point here, Wolf, is that there have been several studies that have looked carefully at the vaccine and other kinds of serious illnesses affecting your muscles and organs and so forth. In any of those studies, they didn't find an increased occurrence in any of those conditions among the vaccines. Meaning that, on any one given day, anyone on the streets of America could come down with some serious illness -- but does it occur more frequently when people are vaccinated.
So I can just tell you from a bottom line, personal experience myself, if I had access to this vaccine right now and I had been one of the individuals exposed, I would definitely want it.
BLITZER: Are you suggesting, Dr. Osterholm, that if you have taken the 60-day regimen of the ciprofloxacin, or penicillin, some other antibiotic, that that may not have killed all of the spores that perhaps arrived in someone's lungs?
OSTERHOLM: Exactly. What we really know -- and this is largely based on animal studies, looking at intentional infections in monkeys, for example -- is that when one inhales these spores, they're like kernels of corn. They're very hardy entities. Once they get into lungs, they get moved by cells into the lymph nodes and the chest. And they sit there.
And then one day, they may pop, like popcorn, and suddenly now you have the live bacteria that gets into the bloodstream and causes a serious illness. In those monkey studies, animals got sick sometimes as late as up to 60 days or more after they actually had the bacteria and spores inhaled in.
So what we're really doing here is saying that, given those kinds of data -- clearly it's not human, but it's the best data we have -- says yeah, that maybe someone could actually get sick up to 60, 90 days afterwards. And therefore, let's be as safe as we can be and make sure that should those spores germinate or start to grow, that you have the protection of antibiotics or the vaccine.
BLITZER: You've been taking it for 60 days, you're a Capitol Hill employee or you're a police officer who worked at one of the buildings up there, the Hart Senate office building, a postal worker, and you get this statement today from the Department of Health and Human Services that says this: "The decision to use this vaccine is at the discretion of the individual in consultation with his or her physician."
They probably want better guidance than that. Is that the best that the federal public health authorities can do, and just say consult your doctor, see if you want to get the vaccine or some more cipro?
OSTERHOLM: Again, Wolf, I think that we would likely have more data. We want to know: does this really work or not work? What is the risk? And I think that the federal officials are giving the community the very best information they have.
Had they come out and said everybody must take this vaccine, you would have heard a number of people crying out that somehow they are being experimented upon. If you had not offered it at all, people would say there is a life-saving potential modality that's not being offered to individuals -- why not?
So I think that this is not an attempt to take the middle ground, it's just telling the truth. It's saying these are the best data we have on the science, and therefore we would make this available to you. But in the end, it's got to be an individual decision. I think I've made it clear tonight, if I had access to this vaccine, I had been exposed, I definitely would take the vaccine.
BLITZER: There was some question, Dr. Osterholm, about if there is enough vaccine available. As you know, there have been some problems in manufacturing it over in Anne Arbor, the only place where it is put together. Is there enough vaccine available?
OSTERHOLM: At this point there is enough vaccine to cover this particular situation. And I think it's also important to note that the problems that occurred in making this vaccine were not around its safety, it's around its potency, meaning how powerful was it or not -- how to stabilize that. And we want to make sure that the people out there don't think that somehow they're getting an unsafe vaccine.
But at this point we have enough vaccine, and I think that people should seriously consider looking at the potential.
BLITZER: Good advice from Dr. Michael Osterholm, who probably knows more about infectious diseases than almost anyone I know. Thank you very much for joining us.
OSTERHOLM: Thank you very much, Wolf.
BLITZER: Appreciate it. And, preliminary tests on an unidentified white powder delivered yesterday to a top State Department official suggest that that powder does not appear to be anthrax. The envelope was opened in the offices of the Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage. There was no letter inside, just the as yet unidentified white powder.
Officials tell CNN they're increasingly convinced the letter is a hoax. But just in case, the air system in Armitage's office was shut down and FBI agents were called in to investigate.
President Bush has a wish this week. But getting Congress to help him out has not been easy. When we return, a debate on getting rid of recession. Two U.S. Senators give their opinions, and they don't agree.
Later, a stunning setback for a New York City landmark, made even worse by the time.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back.
The search for the Osama bin Laden continues. Our senior White House correspondent, John King, standing by at the White House. This subject came up during a meeting that the president had with some Congressional leaders earlier today. John, tell us what you've learned.
JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: We are told, Wolf, that the president told Congressional leaders much of what we are hearing from officials speaking publicly at the podiums, that the United States has no definitive information as to the whereabouts of Osama bin Laden.
One other potentially interesting footnote from that meeting: we are told the president and his national security advisers also told the Congressional leadership that as U.S. military forces go through al Qaeda and Taliban installations in Afghanistan, they are scooping up anything -- documents, records -- anything that might be significant from an intelligence standpoint or an investigative standpoint.
The leaders of Congress were told today that additional videotapes -- plural, no number put on it -- but additional videotapes have been seized by the U.S. military and are now being brought back to be analyzed by investigative and intelligence agencies.
No one could say at this meeting whether they would be as significant as the bin Laden tape we saw released recently, simply because those tapes are not back yet, not back in the hands of the intelligence agencies. But the president did say, among the evidence being gathered, are additional videotapes.
BLITZER: All right. Maybe they'll be releasing more videotapes as well. John, the main thrust of that meeting was what the president hopes to accomplish this week, some sort of deal between the Democrats and the Republicans in the Senate, on how to stimulate the economy, get over the recession. Does it look like he's going to get that deal?
KING: White House says 50/50 odds right now. Obviously, the next 24 hours are critical because Congress wants to go home for a holiday recess. The key sticking point right now, there are still some disagreements over tax policy. But the major disagreement is how the government should deliver extended health care benefits to workers thrown out of work, either by the September 11 attacks or the overall recession, dating back to March.
Democrats want to do that through existing government programs, employer based programs. If you've been laid off, you might be familiar with a program called Cobra. Republicans say give a tax credit to individuals, let them go out and buy their own health care. That is the major sticking point right now.
If that can be broken -- and it is a big if, negotiations ongoing as we speak -- everyone believes the rest of it could be worked out. The president will go to Capitol Hill tomorrow, meet with House Republicans. His negotiators are up on Capitol Hill right now. Still a big question mark as to whether this administration can broker an agreement. There are negotiations in the House, but the main sticking point is an administration fight with Senate Democratic leader, the majority leader, Tom Daschle.
BLITZER: OK, John King at the White House, thank you very much. And for more on what can be down to revive the economy, we're joined by two members of the U.S. Senate. John Rockefeller of West Virginia, he's a member of the finance committee. He's been taking part on the negotiations on the economic stimulus bill. And Senator Phil Gramm of Texas. He sits on both the budget and finance committees.
Senators, thanks so much for joining us. Senator Rockefeller, let me begin with you. The president wants a deal. He's a very popular president right now. Can he achieve it? Can he get what he wants? Are you going to stand in his way?
SEN. JOHN ROCKEFELLER (D), WEST VIRGINIA: The only way this is going to be settled is for president and for Speaker Hastert and leader Tom Daschle to sit down and work it out. We've been working on this for two weeks, more or less, nonstop. It's reached a stalemate. Republicans have a totally different view of how you do health care. They want to put the individual, as your guy just said, against the insurance market, all by himself or herself. That's a loser for the individual.
We disagree on a lot of things. But the president and the speaker and the majority leader can work it out if they sit down together. Otherwise it won't work.
BLITZER: Senator Gramm, you've walked down this path many times over the years. The president sometimes has to come in and reach a deal. Can he satisfy the Democrats on this issue that Senator Rockefeller just talked about, the insurance for unemployed individuals? SEN. PHIL GRAMM (R), TEXAS: Wolf, I don't know. I think there are several issues there. I think one issue that the president has been adamant on is that working people ought to get tax relief to provide incentives for them to consume, to work, to save and to invest. The proposal that he's made is that for that tax bracket that you get into as an individual, above $28,000 a year, and as a couple, around $46,000 a year -- the so-called 28 percent bracket, that the president wants to lower that rate to 25 percent.
I don't understand why Democrats have decided that they want to portray someone making $28,000 a year as "rich," and therefore oppose this provision. So I think it is essential, in terms of health care. I think the question is, how can we have a program to help people that are unemployed that can be up and running immediately, and that is only going to last for a year or 18 months, or at most, 24 months?
If you set up a brand new entitlement program, the year is over before it goes into effect. And it seems to me that what the Democrats really want here is a massive new entitlement that would ultimately be paid for with payroll tax. And I think that's an economic depressor.
BLITZER: Senator Rockefeller, it's the old debate. The Democrats supposedly just want more federal spending, more government spending, the Republicans want to cut taxes. Is that what it all boils down to?
ROCKEFELLER: That's partly what it is.
BLITZER: You're standing in the way of a tax cut?
ROCKEFELLER: No. It's partly the fact that Republican -- and I have been in the negotiations, Phil Gramm hasn't -- the Republicans have been basically saying we want to cut taxes on corporations, they want to give IBM $1.4 billion on something called the alternative minimum tax, which I don't need to explain at the moment. And IBM isn't selling computers. So what does that have to do with stimulus?
BLITZER: But I thought the president had -- when Mitch Daniels was on my program Sunday -- he's the budget director, he said that the White House wasn't supporting what the House Republicans wanted, the retroactive tax rebate for the corporations on that alternative minimum tax.
ROCKEFELLER: That could be. That could be. If it's changed, it's changed within the last 24 hours. But we're facing the president trying to raise the national debt ceiling, the director of the budget saying, we're going to -- already, we're in deficit. What we want to do is to deliver health insurance to people right away.
We don't want to do it through the individual tax credit, because history and time have proven that it doesn't work. The insurance company beat the people, the little people, the poor people, every single time. And we want to do it on a program which is already in place, called Cobra. The Republicans don't want to make any trades or any kind of adjustments, because they are focused on rate relief and on alternative minimum tax reform. And we did that to the form of almost $2 trillion last summer.
BLITZER: Let me bring back Senator Gramm. What about that specific issue of the big tax breaks for the huge corporations that Senator Gramm (sic) is talking about? That's a major issue, as far as the Democrats are concerned. Are you ready to walk away from the retroactive nature of it?
GRAMM: Well, the Senate Republicans never proposed a retroactive provision. The president has made it clear now for three weeks that he did not support the retroactive provision. I think it's clear the House passed a bill to get into the negotiating position.
But I really think it comes down to a difference in philosophy. It's like on a cold winter night, the roof blows off. The Democrats want to provide penicillin and blankets. We want to rebuild the roof. They say, well, somebody might make money rebuilding the roof, might be a rich person building the roof. We don't think it matters. We think we need to get the roof back on the house.
But the bottom line is, they believe in more spending. We believe you provide incentives for people to work, save and invest by letting them keep more. And it's a fundamental difference, no doubt about it.
BLITZER: What about that, Senator Rockefeller?
ROCKEFELLER: Well, it brings out the exact difference between, frankly, the two parties, although this, I think, is more ideological than political.
The Republicans fundamentally want to take care of corporations and wealthy people, simply as they did last summer, and bankrupted the country in the process. We want to follow our principles, which we thought we had all agreed on and which I think the president might agree on. And that is do stimulus now to improve the economy, make it better, get money into people's hands, make sure that they can -- that they have good health insurance and good unemployment insurance benefits, and, incidentally, Medicaid for all those states with now have about a $50 billion debt.
And the Republicans are fundamentally blocking that. All can I say is that the president may think what he thinks and may have the right ideas, but the negotiator -- that is Bill Thomas -- has a totally different idea. And he wants AMT and the tax reductions for wealthy individuals. And I don't know how to get around that, Wolf.
BLITZER: What about that, Senator Gramm? I sounds to me like there's not going to be a deal, despite the popularity of the president, despite his personal involvement. Given this fundamental philosophical difference that Senator Rockefeller is talking about, there may not be an economic stimulus package in place before the Christmas recess.
GRAMM: Well, Wolf, I think the American people will be disappointed if there is not a stimulus package. I think the president started out with a compromise. But, as long as I have been in Congress, I still cannot understand why Democrats have got to try to divide America into rich and poor, and how somebody making $28,000 a year is rich.
They are fighting giving tax relief to someone making $28,000 a year, claiming that those people are millionaires. It just doesn't make any sense. The point is, we want the economy to get stronger. We want people to invest more. And the people that have got money, we want to encourage them to invest it. And, if America is going to be saved, it is going to be saved at a profit. That doesn't offend me.
But we have got some Democrats that would prefer that America not be saved if somebody is going to earn a nickel in the process. And I just think it is narrow-minded.
BLITZER: All right, we have got to leave it right there. But if both of you can give me a quick yes-or-no answer, I would be grateful.
First to you, Senator Rockefeller: Will there be an economic stimulus package this week?
ROCKEFELLER: If the president gets himself involved and participates with the speaker and the leader, there can be.
BLITZER: Senator Gramm.
GRAMM: If I had to bet money, I think the White House assessment of 50/50 is pretty good. But I think it is still slightly better than 50/50.
BLITZER: All right, let's see. Thanks for joining us. Appreciate it -- two knowledgeable members of the U.S. Senate discussing an issue obviously very close to both their hearts. Thanks, Senator Gramm and Senator Rockefeller.
And how to revive the economy is our question of the day at our Web site at CNN.com/Wolf. We asked what you think is the best medicine for the economy: tax cuts or spending for the unemployed? So far, tax cuts have been the overwhelming favorite in our nonscientific poll. Favored -- look at this -- 75 percent of our respondents, they like the tax cuts.
And is Iraq the next target in the international war against terrorism? I will speak with an expert who believes now is the perfect time for the United States to attack.
And more chaos today following another airport shutdown: how a small discovery turned into a very large mess.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back.
Let's get a quick check of all the latest developments.
Thousands of Capitol Hill staffers and Capitol Hill police and U.S. postal workers will have the option of receiving the anthrax vaccine -- that decision announced within the past hour by the Department of Health and Human Services. Those being offered vaccine are among the people most at risk. They include those closest to the letter containing anthrax that was opened in the office of the Senate majority leader, Tom Daschle. All have received antibiotics already.
At a NATO meeting in Brussels, the defense secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, warned today that September 11 may have been but a dim preview of terror attacks yet to come. Although fighting is dying down in Afghanistan, Rumsfeld said the mission there is far from over.
And more than a dozen enemy prisoners arrived today at the U.S. encampment in Kandahar -- also arriving in Kandahar, a team of FBI interrogators. One told reporters their primary mission is to gather information that could prevent terror attacks in the future -- still no word on the whereabouts of Osama bin Laden.
Sirens once again echo through the streets of New York City, as a Gothic cathedral goes up in flames. We'll hear about the damage. And, as winter approaches, is a cure for the common cold in the future? How a new medication might help.
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BLITZER: Looking at other stories now on our "Newswire": Truck painter Gary Leon Ridgway pleaded innocent today to four of the so- called Green River serial killings. Ridgway is being held without bail pending a hearing next month. At least 49 women are believed to have been victims of the Green River killer since 1982.
Hours after it was shut down, the airport in Charlotte, North Carolina, is open, but still a mess. Thousands of passengers had to be rescreened. And dozens of flights remain on the ground. The shutdown was ordered after a screening device was found -- get this -- unplugged.
It's months away from being on drug store shelves, but it could help you fight the sniffles. Scientists have created a drug that treats the common cold. Researchers say it won't make your symptoms disappear overnight, but it is proven to help you get better more quickly.
Last week the House, today the Senate, gave schools greater leeway when it comes to spending government money. In return, schools will have to give more standardized tests and create tougher standards for school performance. President Bush promises to sign the education bill into law.
In New York, a landmark cathedral goes up in flames. We'll have a full damage report in just a minute.
Stay with us.
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BLITZER: After weeks of working at ground zero, New York's finest and bravest will soon meet America's finest and bravest. Six New York City firefighters and police officers are on their way to Afghanistan. The men want to say thanks to the troops fighting the war against terrorism.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSEPH HIGGINS, NEW YORK FIRE DEPARTMENT: I'm going with the memory of my brother Tim, Lieutenant Timmy Higgins from Squad 252. I'm bringing over some special bracelets in his honor. We have patches from various fire houses, my own, others, mass cards, all of types of good things. We even have some of the concrete from the World Trade Center. We even have a piece of the plane. We want these troops to know that we are bonded together here and that we love them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Besides meeting with troops, the men will deliver food and supplies to needy victims of the war.
Part of a religious and cultural landmark in New York City went up in flames today just a week before Christmas.
As CNN's Deborah Feyerick reports, New Yorkers are left to cope with yet another blow to their city.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Flames engulfed the side of the world's largest Gothic cathedral, St. John the Divine -- a fire igniting early morning in a gift shop, threatening to spread to the main sanctuary and consume priceless artifacts.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just think that it's a tragedy that the city has suffered more trouble.
FEYERICK: The sounds of sirens echoed loudly once again in a city still reeling from attacks on the World Trade Center and the crash of American Airlines Flight 587. But this time, there were no casualties, as 200 firefighters brought the flames under control within three hours, helped by a relatively new kind of camera that guides them through blinding smoke to the heat source.
COMMISSIONER THOMAS VON ESSEN, NEW YORK FIRE DEPARTMENT: It was such a heavy smoke condition inside, the firefighters couldn't see anything. So they were just -- they would have been just shooting water into an area they thought there was fire. The thermal-imaging cameras allow them to zero in on it exactly where it was.
FEYERICK: With so much smoke and water, church officials fear that some damage might be irreparable. Two priceless 18th century tapestries were nearly destroyed.
JERE FARRAH, CATHEDRAL SPOKESMAN: There's some left of each of those two tapestries. It's unclear at this point whether or not they can be restored. FEYERICK: St. John the Divine has been under construction since groundbreaking in 1892. It's a cultural magnet for New Yorkers, one of the city's preeminent concert stages, with a school, arts and community programs, and some homeless people who have trained here as stone masons to help build the historic landmark. Every year, more than half-a-million people visit St. John's, with Christmas a very busy time.
REV. E. DON TAYLOR, ST. JOHN THE DIVINE CATHEDRAL: There will be slight disruptions, but I don't think it will cause us to cancel our services. The services of the cathedral, where thousands of people from all over the world will be converging on the cathedral, will go on.
FEYERICK (on camera): The main part of the cathedral remains virtually unscathed. One lieutenant said it was critical to put this fire out quickly. If not, he says, it is the kind of fire that could have burned possibly for weeks.
Deborah Feyerick, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: A surprise decision today in the case of Mumia Abu- Jamal, who was convicted of the 1981 killing of a Philadelphia police officer. A federal judge overturned Abu-Jamal's death sentence, but rejected his request for a new trial and upheld his 1982 conviction on first-degree murder charges. The judge said a state court judge in 1981 had inappropriately instructed the jury on how to determine if Abu-Jamal should get the death penalty.
The ruling was slammed by Philadelphia's DA.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LYNNE ABRAHAM, PHILADELPHIA DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Two hundred and thirty-five pages Judge Yohn's opinion states that all the phony claims and all of the faddist claims and all the propaganda about the procedures of the trial, his lawyer or anything else, has been totally and completely rejected by the court.
Our position is that the judge's decision was incorrect on the law and that we have an absolute right to take an appeal. And, after 20 years, I don't think any of you would expect any less.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: The case of Abu-Jamal, a former Black Panther and radio reporter, has sparked years of protests from opponents of capital punishment.
And this note: "THE POINT WITH GRETA VAN SUSTEREN" will have an exclusive live interview with Maureen Faulkner. She is the widow of the slain police officer Abu-Jamal was convicted of killing. And attorney Johnnie Cochran will also join in the conversation to discuss the details of the case. That's at 8:30 p.m. Eastern tonight, 5:30 on the West Coast here on CNN.
And when come back, we will make a dramatic turn. Sports fans, listen to this. Wait until you see the game that the U.S. Marines have introduced in Afghanistan. They have been introduced to a nice new game, not so nice sometimes. "Monday Night Football" might never seem as exciting. Watch this.
Stay with us.
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BLITZER: Lou Dobbs is standing by to tell us what he has on "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE," which begins at the top of the hour -- Lou.
LOU DOBBS, "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE": Wolf, thank you very much.
Coming up on the top of the hour: A cave-by-cave search for Osama bin Laden is under way tonight. We will have a special report for you on something called cave-snoopers, the latest on how this important technology is being used to find, hopefully, Osama bin Laden and to carry out the campaign against terrorism in Afghanistan. Tonight, we be will joined by CNN terrorism expert Peter Bergen.
We will be discussing where that search for Osama bin Laden will likely lead. And to discuss the situation in the Middle East and the war against terrorism, former Defense Secretary, "MONEYLINE" regular contributor William Cohen will also join us.
And we will be taking you to malls all around the country for a look at how retail sales are doing this holiday season -- live reports from all around the country on what shoppers are buying and what they are spending -- all of that and a lot more coming up at the top of the hour. Please join us.
Now back to Wolf Blitzer in Washington -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Thank you very much, Lou. We certainly will.
Meanwhile, although anti-Taliban forces have made major gains in Afghanistan, the United States says the war on terrorism is far from over. If so, which country may be next? One strategist is speculating Iraq is atop the list. He is Eliot Cohen from the Johns Hopkins University School of Advanced International Studies here in Washington, D.C. He joins me now live.
Thank you very much, Eliot, for joining us.
So, why do you think the timing may be right to go after Iraq right now?
ELIOT COHEN, JOHNS HOPKINS UNIVERSITY: Well, I think the administration has established the principle that the key issues is states that sponsor terrorism. Al Qaeda is a problem on its own. We're going to be chasing them around the world for quite some time to come. They couldn't have been what they were if they didn't have state support. And state sponsorship of terrorism is really the big issue.
BLITZER: Does the administration, though, in order to keep this coalition together, need some smoking gun linking Saddam Hussein, Iraq, to the September 11 terrorist attacks?
COHEN: Our issues with Saddam go, of course, way beyond September 11. There may or may not be a smoking gun. But there are some things we do know about Saddam.
We know that he is developing weapons of mass destruction, that he is persisting in trying to do that. We do know that he tried to kill the first President Bush. He may very well have had a hand in the first attempt on the World Trade Center. There's pretty good evidence of that. He's committed mass murder. This is a very bad actor. We already know that.
As for the coalition, the truth of the matter is, we don't need that many countries to go after Saddam. Really, you need Kuwait and Turkey. The big issue is Saudi Arabia. And there I think part of the issue is going to be what sort of approach we take to the Saudis. Until now, we have been extremely deferential to them, which is rather odd when you consider the fact that we're protecting them.
BLITZER: But, for the U.S. to launch strikes against Iraq, that's quite a different category than to go after Taliban forces in Afghanistan. The Iraqis, despite the Gulf War, still have a rather formidable military force.
COHEN: It's really not very formidable at all. It's about a third the size of what it was in the Gulf. More importantly, they have replaced none of their major equipment. By all accounts, it's about 50 percent unready. The troops are demoralized. Meanwhile, the United States has been progressing enormously since the Gulf War.
You should never predict that anything is going to be a walkover. But the truth of the matter is, this is an extremely frail military. They have been up against us once. They have no desire to come at us again. If the administration decides it is time to take on Saddam's regime, it's just a question of whether we decide we want to do it or not.
BLITZER: And, briefly, do you think the administration has made any such decision?
COHEN: I think they are edging towards it. I think there is probably disagreement about how quickly you do it and what kind of excuses or pretexts or developments you need. But I think there is a general feeling out there that the world would be a lot better off without Saddam Hussein.
BLITZER: Eliot Cohen, from the School of Advanced International Studies, thank you very much.
COHEN: Thank you.
BLITZER: And strong symbolism today at the Kandahar Airport, where U.S. Marines raised a special American flag.
The pool correspondent for the television networks, David Wright, reports from Southern Afghanistan.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAVID WRIGHT, POOL REPORTER (voice-over): For the Marine Corps, the flag is an icon of freedom. And its sacrifice is made in the name of honor. This flag has special significance. It was found in the rubble of ground zero and is dedicated to civilians, the first casualties in this war.
It was inscribed at ground zero by family members of the victims, by firefighters, FBI agents and police officers, and by New Yorkers brought together by a tragedy. The stars carry the names of police officers who lost their lives September 11, as well as sailors who died on the USS Cole.
(on camera): The flag belongs to New York City Police Department's Emergency Services Unit, many of whose members are former Marines. They felt it important that the flag come to Afghanistan as a powerful reminder to these Marines of what they are fighting for.
(voice-over): This morning in the courtyard of Kandahar Airport, the three Marines charged with raising the flag stood stock-still for a good 15 minutes, as the men gathered to reflect on its significance.
SGT. GERALD LANE, U.S. MARINE CORPS: To have this one signed by the families of victims, police officers from New York City, have flown in New York City, to be able to bring it out here, take this airfield, and raise that flag, that means a lot to all the Marines, the sailors that are here, and all the armed forces, I'm sure.
WRIGHT: The assembly saluted, as the stars and stripes climbed slowly up the flagpole. It hung there for a moment, tentative and quiet, before it found a gust of wind and unfurled in the morning sun.
David Wright with the U.S. Marines in Kandahar.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: And in Mazar-e-Sharif in Northern Afghanistan, U.S. Marines joined some Afghan soldiers today to play a very different version of -- get this -- polo. Its called Buzkashi. The game begins with a decapitated calf -- look at this -- placed in a chalked circle. The riders battle to grab hold of the calf. Winners received wrist watches and some American cash.
Let watch it for a little bit.
What a game.
(LAUGHTER)
BLITZER: I will be back in one hour with more coverage here in the CNN "War Room." Until then, thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.
CNN's coverage of America's new war continues with "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE." That begins right now.
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