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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

Where are Osama bin Laden and Mullah Mohammed Omar?

Aired December 18, 2001 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS: THE WAR ROOM: They're combing through the rubble at Tora Bora.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GENERAL PETER PACE, VICE CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: It's going to be step by step, cave by cave.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Where are Osama Bin Laden and Mullah Omar?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: We have reduced the number of areas within Afghanistan where they are likely to be.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Has the al Qaeda leader escaped?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I don't think there's a country in the world that's foolish enough to want to take Osama Bin Laden in.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: We'll go live to Afghanistan and the Pentagon and I'll speak live with Senator John Edwards of the Intelligence Committee, former Assistant Defense Secretary Frank Gaffney, and CNN security analyst Kelly McCann, as we go into THE WAR ROOM.

Good evening. I'm Wolf Blitzer, reporting tonight from Washington.

Osama Bin Laden may be the world's most wanted man, but he remains elusive. Despite a worldwide dragnet, the al Qaeda leader's whereabouts are very much a mystery. Our focus tonight: he can run, but can he hide?

The Eastern Alliance and U.S. troops are going cave-to-cave looking for Bin Laden. For that and the rest of what's going on inside Afghanistan, let's go to CNN's Jim Clancy. He joins us live from Kabul. Jim, what -- what is the latest?

JIM CLANCY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the latest, let's begin in Tora Bora as they take you around the country. There's a lot of developments right now. In Tora Bora, U.S. special forces and Afghan fighters continue to scour the wind-swept mountains around Tora Bora. They are going cave to cave in a search for Bin Laden and other al Qaeda members.

At the same time, we hear from the defense secretary this is tough, dirty, hard work. Afghan fighters -- many of them who had been on the frontline -- declaring victory and returning home atop Soviet- era tanks. They are leaving the battle scene, but that search goes on.

We also understand the Pakistanis are on alert. More than 300 border posts set up there. Unclear whether U.S. special forces have also moved to cut off the retreat areas there. Of course, defense officials not commenting on that.

As you put it, Wolf, the search is on. Let's go now to southern Afghanistan. Another search is on, this time for Mullah Mohammed Omar, the spiritual leader of the Taliban, another man wanted by the United States.

The head of the Afghanistan intelligence in Kandahar says Omar and 300 to 400 of his fighters are in Helmand province. He says there are in the foothills there. The intelligence chief telling those who will listen that he's got hourly reports on the whereabouts of Mullah Omar and they are closing in.

He says, though, U.S. airstrikes cannot begin until and unless he can get Afghan fighters in the region to direct those airstrikes. But the circle there appears to be closing as well.

Meantime, here in the capital city of Kabul, there were developments on the multinational force that is believed to arrive to stabilize the situation.

And the U.S. Embassy opened its doors for reporters, revealing not so much an embassy but a time capsule.

Reporters who went inside saw cobwebs hanging from the ceiling. They saw old equipment, encrusted with dust from more than a dozen years of lack of use.

In addition to that, you looked into the canteen, Wolf. You could see that hamburgers were 60 cents or the Kabul hamburger was 80 cents and a ham and cheese one dollar.

On the ambassador's desk was a half-smoked cigar, the ashes still there. Everywhere signs of a hasty departure from the U.S. embassy 12 years ago on January 30, 1989. And one of most interesting aspects of it all was the amount of Soviet era magazines, intelligence reports.

A "Time" magazine sitting there on the ambassador's desk with a picture of Mikhail Gorbachev on it. As you looked at the evidence of hasty retreat you could also be impressed by the fact those who were inside the embassy tracking the Soviet Union in those days -- which is -- which was of course very active in Afghanistan before that -- had no idea that the Soviet Union would collapse in a matter of months. Wolf.

BLITZER: Jim, I'm not so sure I want one of those 60-cent Afghan hamburgers. But that's another subject. Getting back to that peacekeeping or stabilization force that the international community is trying to put together for Afghanistan. What are you hearing now about the latest developments on that front?

CLANCY: Well, we are hearing from Afghan sources that are telling CNN that the first elements of some 2500 British and German force members may begin arriving by tonight. That's Thursday -- Wednesday night here in -- in Kabul or in the area.

Now, in all, there are expected to be five to six thousand members of this stabilization force, from a number of countries. There has been a delay, Wolf, in the way that this has all played out, specifically because the Afghans have not agreed to giving these -- these peacekeepers, if you will, Chapter Seven authorization under the U.N. Charter. That means they have the right to use force. But the details are being worked out, Wolf. After all, against a deadline here, the 22nd, there will be an incoming government.

We talked to the U.S. Special Envoy to Afghanistan, James Dobbins. He told us, however, there will be no U.S. forces on the ground here in that role.

They may be acting as enablers on the ground, assisting this multinational stabilization force, but they won't be on the streets of Kabul or Herat or cities like Mazar-e Sharif, Jalalabad or Kandahar -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Jim Clancy in Kabul, thank you very much. And this important programming note: CNN's Nic Robertson will have more at the top of the hour and later at 11:00 p.m. eastern in his special report LIVE FROM AFGHANISTAN.

The United States, meanwhile, has gotten its hands on some al Qaeda fighters. Let's go live to our national correspondent Bob Franken. He's over at the Pentagon and he's following that part of the story. Bob.

BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, what we have now is a consensus that as massive as it was, phase one of the war in Afghanistan may be very slowly drawing to a close. But the consistent message we're getting is that phase II may be every bit as difficult.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

(voice-over): The United States is focusing more and more on the prisoners taken in Afghanistan. Pentagon officials confirmed that 15 more had been turned over to U.S. troops, taken to the new detention facility constructed at Kandahar airport. Five others, including American John Walker, are on board a U.S. assault ship offshore. FBI agents have been dispatched to assist with interrogations.

PAUL WOLFOWITZ, DEPUTY DEFENSE SECRETARY: The first priority is to get information from them, and first and foremost information that can lead us to the capture of other terrorists. And I would say particularly, frankly, the capture of terrorists here in the United States or in other places where they may be planning operations.

FRANKEN: And perhaps information about Osama Bin Laden, still unaccounted for. Pentagon officials say they don't know if he's dead at the bottom of a cave in Tora Bora or alive -- in Afghanistan or out -- although there was a blunt warning to any country that might be considering giving him someplace to go.

WOLFOWITZ: Any country in the world that would knowingly harbor Bin Laden would be out of their minds. And I think they have seen what happened to the Taliban and I think that is probably a pretty good lesson to people not to do that.

FRANKEN: Not that officials have given up on the possibility that Bin Laden is still in Afghanistan. The search for him -- and for Taliban supreme leader Mullah Mohammed Omar -- the treacherous caves, the landmines, the ongoing military operation, are all evidence that the Taliban and al Qaeda are what the deputy defense secretary described as only "half defeated." In Brussels, his boss warned that the worst could be yet to come.

RUMSFELD: The task is still ahead of us, and it -- it should not be considered that it will be accomplished in a short period of time. It's going to be tough, dirty, hard work.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

FRANKEN (on camera): And each day, officials here try to come up with the catch phrase that will best describe the current situation. The deputy defense secretary might have had the phrase of the day. He was describing the state of the war on terrorism by saying, "the bell hasn't rung yet on the round" -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Bob Franken at the Pentagon, thank you very much.

President Bush, meanwhile, told leaders of Congress that more al Qaeda videotapes have been found in Afghanistan, and are being analyzed by the U.S. intelligence community.

According to sources at the meeting, there's no indication that the additional tapes will be all significant; certainly, perhaps, not as significant as the recently-released tape of Osama Bin Laden showing him discussing the September 11 attacks. The additional tapes were gathered from al Qaeda installations.

Has the United States let Osama Bin Laden get away? And if he's made it into Pakistan, should U.S. forces go after him? Joining me here in the CNN WAR ROOM, Senator John Edwards of the Senate Intelligence Committee, CNN analyst Kelly McCann, the CEO of Crucible Security, and Frank Gaffney. He's a former Pentagon official, now president and CEO of the Center for Security Policy.

Remember, you can e-mail your war room questions to us. Go to my web site, cnn.com/wolf, which is also where you can read my daily online column.

Senator Edwards, let me begin with you. Is it possible that despite all this effort, Osama Bin Laden has managed to get away?

SEN. JOHN EDWARDS (D), NORTH CAROLINA: Well, I don't think there's any way for us to know that for certain, Wolf, and I think that's what we've been hearing. We're going cave to cave, we're looking for him, our people are looking very hard for him.

But if you think about what's happened in Afghanistan, we have -- we've actually made great progress. And that's a real tribute to our military men and women who have put their lives on the line over there.

But from the beginning, this has been an intelligence-driven operation. That's not going to change, neither within Afghanistan nor around the world. I mean, what we know is, we are dependent on real- time intelligence in order to be successful.

We have learned that from what's happened in Afghanistan already. And what we have also seen occur, is we have seen Taliban leaders and al Qaeda leaders not only not be captured but sort of fade back into the population. And I suspect some of them have moved across the borders into other lands.

So the key thing here -- here is to recognize that as we go forward, number one, this is going to take a long, sustained effort -- as we've said from the beginning. And number two, we're going to continue to be heavily dependent on accurate, effective, real-time intelligence.

BLITZER: Frank Gaffney, a viewer, Pedro from San Juan writes this: "Why is it that very few mention the possibility that Bin Laden may have been killed already, with his remains buried beyond recovery?

FRANK GAFFNEY, PRESIDENT, CENTER FOR SECURITY POLICY: Because as the senator says, we don't know.

BLITZER: But -- but that's a possibility.

GAFFNEY: It's an entirely realistic possibility. In fact, it may be about as even a bet as that he's gotten out of the country and is operating from someplace else.

You asked that question at the top of the program that I think is the right one, sort of. You said, "he is running, but can he hide?" The question is not so much can he hide, as can he operate? Can he continue to mount operations against us?

And I think we would all agree he almost certainly has assets in place, even in this country, with which to do that if he can communicate with them, if he can energize them. And our hope has to be that he's not dead, that he's in a position where he can't make those kinds of communications.

BLITZER: But can't some of those-called sleeper cells operate on their own?

GAFFNEY: Conceivably they could. This seems to be a fairly disciplined operation. And we have to hope that by suppressing the head, if not cutting it off, you are making that a lot more difficult.

BLITZER: Let me bring in Kelly. A question from June in Georgia. She asks this question. Maybe you can help us answer it. "If credible intelligence indicates Osama Bin Laden is in Pakistan -- they are already across the border -- will U.S. forces cross the border?

KELLY MCCANN, CEO, CRUCIBLE SECURITY: That's a difficult question, June, and good one. Here is the round way to answer that. Number one, we know that there is a more populated area in Pakistan and a more educated people, basically, than we had Afghanistan -- who understand the value of $25 million. So I think that you have lot more eyes and ears on the ground from the local population.

Number two, the Taliban did turn down the poppy fields two years ago. So there are a lot of drug runners who were pretty angry about that who originated from Pakistan. That's an exploitable source.

And you can bet that there are things right now -- provocative things, of both human actions that are observable by our enemies and also technological inputs that are guaranteed to present new opportunities that are not discernible by the enemy.

BLITZER: Senator Edwards, a follow-up question on Pakistan from Donna in Houston, e-mails us this: "How trustworthy is the Pakistani army, since we are apparently counting on them to keep Bin Laden and his top people from fleeing east from Tora Bora?"

EDWARDS: Well, we know that historically, Wolf -- in answer to the question -- we know that a number of members of the Pakistani military have had relationships with the Taliban in the past. And they have probably had relationships with al Qaeda in -- in addition to that.

But I think the reality is Pakistan has generally been helpful to us in this operation. Our relationship with them has been important.

You asked earlier about it, are troops crossing the border into Pakistan. I think the key to this is for us to continue to work with people who have worked with us as allies, productively, in this operation and this effort to find Bin Laden.

BLITZER: The other...

GAFFNEY: It's not just the Pakistani military. We ought to be clear about this. It's the intelligence services, it's... EDWARDS: Oh, absolutely.

GAFFNEY: It's the nuclear weapon program scientists and it's the government itself. We're responsible for propping up -- and in fact I -- help -- think -- helping to install the Taliban and thereby turning over Afghanistan to al Qaeda. So this is a very serious question.

MCCANN: And the information service that was stood up to basically promote these kind of rewards and incentives for the population. That was stood up recently. So all of that's a good blend.

BLITZER: Let's go to the map. I want to put it on the map. In addition to Osama Bin Laden, the U.S. is also searching for Mullah Omar, the leader of the Taliban. He's supposedly in this area. This is Helmand Province. Right around here. Just to the west of Kandahar.

They obviously are looking for him over there. The question is this, Senator Edwards: the allied forces allied with Hamid Karzai -- he's the leader, now, of the six-month interim government -- do they have the same agenda as the U.S. has?

Because there's history, if you will, in Afghanistan of making deals with former enemies. The "Washington Post" in an editorial -- and I'll read it to you -- they said this today. "The Afghan practice of negotiating the surrender of Taliban commanders rather than crushing them not only has left many senior officials at large, but also has given the new government a stake in protecting them from U.S. retribution."

EDWARDS: Well, as a practical matter, we know that what's happened in this negotiation process, that is a part of what's happened historically within Afghanistan, that a number of Taliban leaders have been able to recede into the population.

I might add that I think it's critically important that we continue to move forward aggressively with our intelligence operation to identify those people, because they are just lying in wait, Wolf, lying in wait to reorganize and to come forward and -- and do a lot of mischief.

But the answer to the question is, I think that we need to work with those people. We need to make sure that they are doing what they need to do. But I think at least up until now they -- they have been doing the sorts of things we would want them to do.

GAFFNEY: This is a problem for the government -- the new government of Afghanistan, too, not just for us. The Taliban will be laying in the weeds, not just to get at us but to get back into power. So it's very much in their interest as much as ours to roll these guys up and put them away.

BLITZER: All right. Let's take a quick break.

We have a lot more to talk about when we come back. Knowing what happened to the Taliban, would any country now dare to shelter Osama Bin Laden, knowing what some in Afghanistan have already gone through? Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. I want to bring back Kelly. This whole notion that Osama Bin Laden may find some haven someplace, some country that might accept him. What possible motivation, benefit could that country have in accepting Osama Bin Laden knowing that -- the turmoil that could follow?

MCCANN: None. However, there could be some benefit to individuals who are uncontrolled by the government or unable to be controlled by the government who may have sympathized with him.

So I think that every government in the world recognizes he's a very dangerous man for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is if you're connected with him, you're going to get stepped on. And I think that the dragnet will work. So people are going to be very careful not to get involved.

BLITZER: You would think, Senator Edwards, that the deterrent factor from airstrikes in Afghanistan would get the job done. But as Kelly says, there may be some groups out there, some -- some cells or some individuals who may still want to protect Osama Bin Laden.

EDWARDS: Well, it's certainly possible. There are some extremist groups that are -- that are in that position, Wolf.

But -- but as we just -- as we just discussed, no government is going to want to harbor Osama Bin Laden. They've seen what's happened to Afghanistan, they've seen what happened to the Taliban. And if they have any question, there can be no doubt about our commitment to go after this guy -- wherever he is -- and hold whoever is harboring him responsible.

BLITZER: At the same time, he could disappear in various countries. There's been a lot of speculation, Frank, about Somalia, Sudan, Yemen, even the Philippines or Indonesia. Is all that speculation realistic?

GAFFNEY: Well, he lived for five years in Sudan. So it's not just speculation, it's possible. I think I'd -- well, I may dissent on this a little bit.

I think that there are governments on this planet -- North Korea comes to mind, Iraq comes to mind -- who frankly are just cussed enough to be willing to give this guy safe harbor as long as he keeps out of sight.

And the question is, will he be able -- and this goes back to the point I made at the beginning -- will he be able to operate from any place that does give him safe harbor? I hope not. Because boy, I tell you, if he does -- if he does come up in the net...

MCCANN: His ego -- Bin Laden's ego will not the let him stay out of sight. And the other thing I would say, Frank, is that the talk about him post-September 11 was him as a fearsome man. Listen to the verbiage right here: running, hiding, scared. That's what we want. That's the image we want to project. And truthfully, this is an angry, angry machine.

BLITZER: He could shave his beard, put on some suits...

MCCANN: ...a six-foot-four bald man.

EDWARDS: That isn't accurate anymore. That isn't accurate...

BLITZER: You know, Frank raises the issue of Iraq. We heard from president Saddam Hussein in Baghdad today. He said this. Listen to what he said.

He said, "We want to hold a quick meeting without wasting more time to discuss the issue of aggression on Palestinians, in particular, and let the meeting be held at the Holy Ka'aba" -- that means in Mecca -- "or any other capital where the presence of all can be assured."

He wants the Arab world, the Muslim world, to get together and talk about the Palestinians right now. I think he's feeling the heat a little bit.

EDWARDS: Well, I hope he's feeling the heat little bit. This is a very serious -- this is a very dangerous man, not only to the United States, Wolf, but to all the people in that region.

BLITZER: So...

EDWARDS: ... including, that's exactly right. And it creates a serious threat.

We need to finish what we are doing in Afghanistan. There's no reason to telegraph what we are doing next, but we need to treat this threat very seriously. And the notion that he's not letting our weapons inspectors in is completely unacceptable.

BLITZER: What about that -- a lot of people say that that coalition that the bush administration has assembled would crumble immediately, beginning with the Russians.

GAFFNEY: Well, I think the -- this is part of the problem that we've discussed in the past, Wolf, about the Russians simply having an interest in maintaining relationships with what we call rogue states and they call clients. And that ought to tell us something about what their true agenda is. It's not perfectly aligned with ours by any means.

But I think on the question of whether or not the coalition -- or a coalition can be manufactured to support us in fighting Saddam Hussein, the critical determinant of that really is: do they think we're serious? Are we going do it this time and finish the job? Do we have the capabilities to do it? And I think if we do, we're going to have company.

MCCANN: ... Secretary Rumsfeld said good enough for me. Coalition of one. And when it's necessary, we will be a coalition of one. If we have to wage this thing by ourselves in certain quarters, rest assured we are going to do it.

BLITZER: Kelly McCann, Frank Gaffney, Senator Edwards. Thanks for joining us. Appreciate it very much.

And when we come back, the first lady talks about the way President Bush has dealt with the attacks on America and the war on terrorism. That's coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Tonight on CNN's "LARRY KING LIVE" the first lady, Laura Bush, and a tour of the holiday White House. Mrs. Bush also talks about how President Bush has handled recent events.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LAURA BUSH, FIRST LADY OF THE UNITED STATES: I know how strong he is. I know how disciplined he is. He's very, very disciplined.

And the other things that I see that I think Americans are also seeing were for instance when he went to ground zero on that Friday after September 11, and this -- when the -- they yelled, the firemen yelled, "we can't hear you." And he yelled back, "well, I can hear you and America can hear you." And that really is the way my husband relates to people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: You will want to watch the full interview with the first lady on "LARRY KING LIVE" at 9 p.m. Eastern, 6:00 p.m. on the West Coast. Very good interview.

That's all the time we have tonight. Please join me again tomorrow twice, at both 5:00 and 7:00 p.m. Eastern. Until then, thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. "CROSSFIRE" begins right now.

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