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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports
Has Osama Bin Laden Changed his Identity?
Aired December 19, 2001 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Now on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS: "America Strikes Back."
Could a clean shave have helped him make a clean getaway?
As the search continues, we'll get an exclusive look at what's said to be Osama bin Laden's former hideout.
As al Qaeda prisoners stage a bloody break for freedom, the FBI hopes others will tell what they know about past and future attacks.
Hello, I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. You're about to see CNN exclusive video of the American Taliban fighter, John Walker. CNN has obtained the first pictures of Walker being interviewed. Now we have additional excerpts that give us a more complete account of his views about the Taliban, as well as the bloody prison uprising that led to the death of a CIA field officer.
But first, let's check the latest developments. The only person charged so far in connection with the September 11th attacks appeared this afternoon in federal court in northern Virginia, just outside Washington. Zacarias Moussaoui was transferred this morning under tight security from New York. A federal judge ordered Moussaoui held without bail at a brief hearing in Alexandria.
An Eastern Alliance official says the alliance may have helped al Qaeda commanders escape from Tora Bora. The unnamed official says two alliance leaders have been rebuked. He says they conspired to help al Qaeda fighters flee into Pakistan by the hundreds.
More than 40 al Qaeda fighters taken prisoner in Pakistan escaped today, just across the border from Tora Bora. About half were recaptured. Local commanders say the prisoners rebelled on a bus near Peshawar, sparking a shoot-out that left seven prisoners dead, as well as six police. Later, the United States said that Pakistan has managed to capture hundreds of fighters who fled to Pakistan.
Here in Washington, despite a trip to Capitol Hill by President Bush, there's still no deal on a bill to spark the U.S. economy. Mr. Bush announced he sealed an agreement, but later the Senate majority leader Tom Daschle said there is still a dispute over health care coverage for laid off workers.
A decision could come this week on what charges to bring, if any, against John Walker. White House spokesman Ari Fleischer says President Bush is still receiving information from the Justice an Defense Departments. Walker is now being held aboard the USS Peleliu, in the Arabian Sea. CNN has obtained the only on-camera interview with Walker -- it was conducted earlier this month -- after he was taken into custody during a prison uprising in Mazar-e Sharif.
We now have extended excerpts from that interview by journalist Robert Pelton. Here, John Walker talks about how he came to help the Taliban.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN WALKER, TALIBAN AMERICAN: When we withdrew from Tahar, we walked by foot maybe more than a hundred miles. Afterwards, I was very sick for the whole period, until we came to Mazar-e Sharif. I was still sick. So I wasn't really in a condition to be able to research these other things.
ROBERT PELTON, AUTHOR: Were you with the Taliban the whole time?
WALKER: The Taliban have a separate branch in the army. They have Afghans and they have the non-Afghans. I was with the separate branch of the non-Afghans.
PELTON: What is the non-Afghani branch like?
WALKER: It's called Anzar (ph). It means the helpers.
PELTON: Is that the same as the 55 brigade, and...
WALKER: I'm not familiar with that.
PELTON: That's a term (UNINTELLIGIBLE) I was with the Taliban in 1995.
WALKER: Really.
PELTON: Yes, and they were explaining that they have the 055 brigade, and then...
WALKER: Yeah, they have a number name. I don't remember the number.
PELTON: You have an accent...
WALKER: I haven't spoken English with native speakers in several months. I have been speaking Arabic. So I've been living overseas for about two years, also.
PELTON: How did you get to Afghanistan? Because some friends of mine fought in Chechnya.
WALKER: Really.
PELTON: Did you go through the Mudj (ph) trail, or did you just come here and volunteer? WALKER: I came -- I was a student in Pakistan, studying Islam. And I came into contact with many people who were connected with Taliban. I lived in a region in northwest frontier province. The people there in general, they have a great love for the Taliban.
So I started to read some of the literature of the scholars, and the history of the movement. My heart became attached to the movement. I wanted to help them, one way or another. So I had the opportunity to...
PELTON: Do you have any military skills, or you just were sort of...
WALKER: No, I don't.
PELTON: Did you go to the camps where they train you?
WALKER: Simple training camps.
PELTON: Because a friend of mine was American, and they had to hide him from Secret Service all the time. And he got to fight in Kashmir.
WALKER: In Pakistan? Yeah, that's how it is. They always had to...
PELTON: I mean, after this is all done, how do you feel? Do you feel like you were sort of -- you did the right thing?
WALKER: What do you mean?
PELTON: Well, do you feel now, after there's been a number of losses on the Taliban side...
WALKER: With regard it this, this particular incident, you mean?
PELTON: Yeah.
WALKER: This was all a mistake of a handful of people.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: Later this hour, you'll hear more of this exclusive interview, including John Walker's description of the prison uprising in Mazar-e Sharif that eventually led to the first U.S. combat death inside Afghanistan. And you can see the entire exclusive interview with John Walker on a special edition of "THE POINT WITH GRETA VAN SUSTEREN." That's at 8:30 p.m. Eastern, 5:30 p.m. Pacific, tonight.
And also later tonight on "NEWSNIGHT WITH AARON BROWN," hear the first-person account from the journalist who interviewed John Walker, the author, Robert Pelton. That's at 10:00 p.m. Eastern, 7:00 Pacific.
It's becoming a little clearer where the enemy fighters who survived Tora Bora have gone. Today the Pentagon says Pakistan has managed to capture hundreds of fighters who fled across the border just south of Tora Bora. What remains unclear is how many fighters crossed undetected, and how many others still may be hiding on the Afghan side where U.S. commandos are trying to find them.
With the latest on the hunt, CNN's Walter Rodgers. He's in Tora Bora.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WALTER RODGERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Although U.S. warplanes were overhead again today in the Tora Bora section of extreme eastern Afghanistan, they have not dropped bombs. Indeed, we do not believe we have heard any bombs dropped by U.S. warplanes in this area for over 48 hours now.
The work now seems to be more searching than destroying. The searching goes on by U.S. special forces teams who are in that extremely remote, mountainous area of eastern Afghanistan, the Tora Bora mountains. They are going -- the special forces soldiers are going from cave to cave, mopping up, as it were, looking for some remnants of the al Qaeda fighters who may or may not still be in that particular region.
And as the U.S. special forces go around looking for the remnants of al Qaeda -- that is, Osama bin Laden's fighters -- so are a number of Afghans who are returning to the area. Many of them were driven out of their homes earlier by the fighting. They are now returning. We saw some earlier today scavenging, looking for anything that was salvageable, usable. Not only weapons, but perhaps just firewood.
Now, a number of the al Qaeda fighters did indeed escape from Afghanistan -- over a hundred, we're given to believe. They were interdicted as they made their way into Pakistan. However, as they were being taken to a holding area, a prisoner of war intern camp, a number of them were able to revolt and cause something of a rebellion, which resulted in some shooting.
That is to say, the al Qaeda fighters who were taken prisoners by the Pakistanis grabbed guns of the Pakistani soldiers and turned the guns on the Pakistanis. We were given to believe that there were at least five people killed in that firefight, and more than a few of those al Qaeda Arab fighters escaped into Pakistan itself.
Walter Rodgers, CNN, in the Tora Bora region of eastern Afghanistan.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: Here in Washington, the U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld complimented Pakistan today for apprehending al Qaeda fighters. Rumsfeld spoke this afternoon at a Pentagon news briefing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: The Pakistani army is doing a good job along the border of Afghanistan. They have captured a very large number, hundreds, of people who were fleeing over the border. And we have people that are communicating with them, and doing everything humanly possible to avoid having the people that were pressing in Afghanistan from moving into neighboring countries, where they could cause damage and terrorist acts there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Mr. Rumsfeld emphasized again today that finding Osama bin Laden would not necessarily be an end in itself. The problem, he says, is al Qaeda. Still, though, there is a lot of interest, of course, in finding Osama bin Laden. Joining me now on that, the defense analyst, David Isby.
David, thanks again for joining us. What's your sense about the whereabouts of Osama bin Laden? Likely, we don't know, obviously. Where do you believe he may be?
DAVID ISBY, DEFENSE ANALYST: Probably he has escaped and evaded. He is probably in a safe house somewhere in Pakistan, under the care of people from some of Pakistan's religious parties, who have been his allies. He may even be in a large metropolitan area, trying to blend in with a large crowd.
BLITZER: Do you believe that the Pakistani government of President Musharraf wouldn't be able to find him if, in fact, he is on Pakistani soil?
ISBY: As Rumsfeld said, picking out one flea on a dog full of fleas. You don't just have to block -- once he's passed the border area in an urban area, where you literally have millions of people, and can move, and in doubt, can buy your way through a checkpoint. Bags of money work wonders at checkpoints.
BLITZER: So if he managed to get to a big city like Karachi, let's say, that would make it very, very hard it find him, if he's got some good friends there who are helping him.
ISBY: He has to keep it very secure. Has to be known by a few people. And then the Pakistanis would have to break the cell that knows where he is. If his location is known only to a few people, it's going to be very hard to get good intelligence that is going to allow him to be picked up.
BLITZER: There is a computer program called Faces that's shown what he might look like now if in fact he tried to disguise himself. Take a look at some of these pictures that we've seen, if he shaved off his beard, for example, just kept the mustache. Or if he completely shaved everything else, with glasses, with a different kind of turban, for example, a hat. Do you believe it's in his psyche, in his characteristic, to go ahead and undertake these kinds of dramatic changes?
ISBY: Certainly. I believe he had an escape and evasion plan going into this, and he probably left sometime in November. So that would give him the ability. Certainly, he doesn't know the local languages. He needs help. And certainly he is 6'5" and doesn't know the local languages very well, but it can be done, especially if you have collaborators.
BLITZER: And he still has a lot of money, people forget. He presumably has access to millions and millions of dollars.
ISBY: He has a lot of money. And indeed, a bag of money in hand may be more attractive than the prospect of a 25 million reward sometime in the future, if you encounter it.
BLITZER: What about his al Qaeda fighters? If, in fact, he tried to disguise himself and flee to save his own life, wouldn't that be going against the martyrdom, the desire to fight until the very end, fight until the death?
ISBY: I think he's sort of come to the conclusion that martyrdom is overrated, that these -- there are martyrs enough, and that his ability as a factor to motivate and link the struggle, which he sees as being crucial to the future of Islam, supervenes that. So I think he has left his troops because he can recruit new ones.
BLITZER: David Isby, thanks for joining us.
ISBY: You're welcome.
BLITZER: Appreciate it very much.
And near the Afghan city of Kandahar, a CNN crew has glimpsed the bunker that Osama bin Laden is believed to have used before fleeing after the war began. CNN's Amanda Kibel was taken to the area and has just filed this report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANDA KIBEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): We fold the road north out of Kandahar City into the mountains. Lining the way, shells of old Soviet tanks, now well beyond use after U.S. bombing. Ten kilometers later, on the edge of the mountains, we entered an area not seen by westerners, and by few Afghans, since the Taliban took control of Kandahar six years ago.
This was the stronghold of Osama bin Laden and his al Qaeda fighters. Strangers were not welcome here. In a series of caves and underground bunkers built into the landscape, Osama bin Laden and hundreds of al Qaeda lived and worked.
In this cave, a stockpile of thousands of artillery shells, just some of which we could reach. The rest, we were told, hidden deep in tunnels, which stretched for kilometers into the mountains. Anti- Taliban forces discovered this cave two days after Kandahar fell.
Not far from here, a solitary house where al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden once lived.
(on camera): Osama bin Laden, we are told, built this house specifically as a hideout, a place to shelter when he felt unsafe. And it's here that he came when U.S. bombings on Kandahar began. It is also from this house, we are told by locals, that Osama bin Laden finally fled Kandahar.
(voice-over): In one room, piles of mortar bombs, about 30 rows high and five rows deep, lined the walls. A rough count totaled 4- to 5,000. In the grounds of the house, boxes of heavy machine gun bullets, Russian and Chinese made -- some stacked almost six feet high. Besides these wooden cases filled with the same.
And then, still more piles of linked ammunition for heavy machine guns. Altogether, another rough count, many hundreds of thousands of these bullets. Mujahedeen forces have begun collecting the abandoned weapons and munitions. They will be held in a storage facility on the outskirts of Kandahar, but eventually handed over to Afghanistan's new interim government.
But Osama bin Laden was not only preparing for war, here. He claimed this land, Afghan land, as his own, and tried to turn its natural resources to profit. A large hole in the ground and a hole in the mountain, evidence of Osama bin Laden's attempts to mine for gold here. He was never very successful. The machinery and equipment he used were outdated, leftover from 30 years ago, and just not up to the job.
Across the mountainside, rubble and craters, all that remain of what were once al Qaeda living quarters. Built underground, the bunkers were bombed in U.S. attacks. About 600 al Qaeda fighters lived here. A few hundred died here. Littering the ground, we found small paper leaflets.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This was coming from the plane from America.
KIBEL: Messages from the United States to Taliban and al Qaeda fighters. This one, instructions for surrender. "Put your hands on your head," it reads. "Face your weapons to the ground. Wait until we call you. Don't move. Slowly, slowly walk towards us."
But there was no slow walk to surrender here. Most of the al Qaeda fighters who once held the mountains left suddenly, and by all accounts, very quickly.
Amanda Kibel, CNN, Kandahar, Afghanistan.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: More assessment of the war in Afghanistan at 7:00 p.m. Easter tonight here in the CNN "WAR ROOM." Among my guests, the Senate foreign relations committee chairman, Joe Biden, and Pakistan's ambassador to the United States, Maleeha Lodhi. That's at 7:00 p.m. Eastern. Please join me then.
And you can participate. Just go to my Web site, cnn.com/wolf. Click on "send questions." I'll try to get as many of those questions to our panel as possible. That's also, by the way, where you can read my daily on-line column.
He is the only man charged in the terror conspiracy that unfolded September 11th. Today, Zacarias Moussaoui had a court appearance not far from the Pentagon. CNN's Susan Candiotti was there. She joins us now live from Alexandria, Virginia -- Susan.
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Wolf. Zacarias Moussaoui, a French citizen, had a change of scenery today. He was flown from New York, where he had been detained for weeks and weeks, to Washington's Reagan National Airport by the U.S. marshals, then taken by a highly secure motorcade to the Washington suburb of Alexandria, Virginia, where his trial will eventually be held.
He held a seven-minute hearing, very, very short indeed, called the first appearance. And he heard a U.S. Magistrate summarize, read a summary, of the six conspiracy counts he faces, including conspiracy to hijack a plane, and using a plane as a weapon of mass destruction, in connection to the attacks of September 11th.
The judge told Moussaoui he had the right to remain silent, and Moussaoui did not utter a word. The government alleges that he received the same training and funding as the 19 other hijackers. There is debate as to whether Moussaoui was meant to be the 20th hijacker aboard flight 93, which crashed in Pennsylvania, or whether he was to be part of a future wave of attacks.
His next court appearance is January 2nd, an arraignment where he might enter a plea. And he is currently being held without bond. Today he had the first opportunity to meet with his lawyers. And he appeared in court today without wearing handcuffs. But, Wolf, there were plenty of U.S. Marshals guarding him. Back to you.
BLITZER: Thank you very much. Susan Candiotti in northern Virginia.
And when we return, the anthrax investigation: where the nation stands. And should those exposed take the vaccine?
Also ahead, September 11th, 100 days later. An upper floor executive trapped in the World Trade Center tower listened to his gut and got out. Coming up, why he was able to live when so many others were not.
Later, new information on what may block the benefit of taking aspirin. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back. The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services has offered the anthrax vaccine to thousands of people who may have been exposed to the bacteria, mostly Capitol Hill workers and postal employees. Here to talk with us is one of those Capitol Hill employees, who also happens to be a United States Congressman. He's Representative Christopher Shays of Connecticut.
Congressman Shays, thanks so much for joining us. What do you think about this notion now, these Capitol Hill staffers, postal workers, Capitol Hill police, they've been taking the antibiotic cipro for 60 days. Now the government says to them, try it for another 40 days. And while you're at it, go ahead and get the anthrax vaccine? REP. CHRISTOPHER SHAYS (R), CONNECTICUT: Well, I think they should probably take the antibiotics. The question is, should they take the anthrax vaccine that is really not approved? They're using a new batch from the facility, since it was altered. And the facility hasn't been approved and the vaccine coming out of the facility hasn't been approved. So I would think we would wait until January, after the approval process has reached a point where we know, yes or not, on the vaccine.
And I would think we would call on the British to let us use their vaccines, which they have a whole group of approved vaccines. If we take it in the United States, it would be an investigative drug, but it's approved in Great Britain. And that would be my recommendation.
BLITZER: I spoke yesterday with Dr. Michael Osterholm of the University of Minnesota. He's an infectious disease specialist. He says if he were one of those who may have been exposed to the anthrax, the inhalation form of anthrax, he would be more than happy to go ahead and take that vaccine, pointing out that half a million U.S. military personnel have taken the vaccine, and very few of them appear to have negative side effects.
SHAYS: He left out something. The military took the approved vaccine. Those vaccines were approved by FDA. The vaccines that we're giving to the civilians have not been approved.
BLITZER: So you're saying that -- if you have one of your staffers, or somebody else on the Hill, you're saying don't go ahead and get the vaccine?
SHAYS: The vaccine has to be approved for safety and effectiveness. And it hasn't been approved for either. It has not yet been approved. And yet, we're asking our civilians to take it. So I would advise my staff not to take it. Take the antibiotics. See if they could request to have the British vaccine that has been approved, and then wait until January to use the U.S. vaccine -- and only if it gets approved.
BLITZER: Are you saying -- how long will it take to get the U.S. vaccine, the one that's made in Ann Arbor, Michigan, the only plant that manufactures the vaccine. How long will it take to get approved?
SHAYS: Well, they're going through the process. Again, it's been rejected a few times, because they haven't been doing it right. And so if they approve this last batch, then I would take that last batch. And it should be by the middle of January, they'll know that.
BLITZER: On the broader issue, though, of what to do with this anthrax problem, it seems that the science is not that good right now. They're sort of learning as they go along. Do you have confidence in the CDC, the Department of Health and Human Services, that their recommendations are appropriate?
SHAYS: Oh, I have a lot of confidence in the FDA and CDC and the HHS. But we have a process, and the process is you tell people exactly what they're faced with. And you have them use approved drugs. The FDA approves a drug after they certify it is safe and effective. And the FDA has not certified yet that the drug we're offering our civilians in the Capitol is safe or effective.
BLITZER: OK, Chris Shays, his subcommittee has probably held more hearings on this threat of bioterrorism than any other on Capitol Hill. Thanks again for joining us.
SHAYS: Thank you very much.
BLITZER: Appreciate it. And you can add your thoughts about the anthrax investigation and see what others have to say in an anthrax and bioterrorism discussion group. That's on our Web site, cnn.com.
One hundred days ago, one man walked through smoke to escape from the burning World Trade Center tower. And the only reason he survived was that he ignored the advice given to him. When we return, Brian Clark's dramatic experience on and since September 11th.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WOLF BLITZER, HOST: Welcome back. And now to the U.S. economy and that controversial stimulus package that stalled over at extending healthcare benefits for the unemployed. The White House and House Republicans want to use tax credits to subsidize health insurance costs for those laid off. Many Senate Democrats want a direct subsidy. President Bush went to Capitol Hill today to push for a resolution before week's end.
Our senior White House correspondent John King and our congressional correspondent Kate Snow are joining us now to update us on where all of this stands.
First to you, John, I thought I heard the President say earlier today that this was a done deal. He thought he had a deal with Congress?
JOHN KING, CNN CORRESPONDENT: An interesting civics lesson from the President. If you go back to eighth grade where you taught you how a bill becomes a law, Wolf, it's not exactly as the President played it out today.
As you noted, he did make a rare visit to Capitol Hill. He met now only with the Republicans, he also stopped by the House Democratic caucus. And had a group with -- a meeting with a small group of Democrats, who support this approach and the House Republican approach, at least the least the latest House Republican approach to stimulus.
And as you noted, if you listen to the President, you would think we're almost to the point of a signing ceremony.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This bill will pass the House. It's got enough votes to pass the Senate. And therefore, I look forward to working with both bodies in any way I can, to convince those who are reluctant to get a bill done, that this makes sense for America so we can leave for Christmas knowing full well that we've done the people's business.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Those who are reluctant, to use the President's word, to pass the President's approach, include the Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle, much of the Democratic caucus in the Senate. So despite what the President said, there is no deal. He has the support of only a few Democrats. And tonight, despite the President's optimistic words this morning, they are very pessimistic here at the White House that there will a deal before the Congress heads home for the holidays.
Wolf?
BLITZER: Let's go to the other end of Pennsylvania Avenue. That's where Kate Snow is standing by. Kate, what's the mood on the Hill?
KATE SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, it's taken even longer than we thought it would for the House to take up this bill. The President making it clear this morning that the House, at least, would be able to pass it rather quickly. Well, it's taken a number of hours now. We understand they are just now filing the bill. that means putting it into motion to vote on it tonight. It's probably going to be another five hours before we see that vote, but it will pass easily in the House.
Meantime, Democrats, both in the House and Senate, privately are expressing a lot of frustration about this, Wolf. They are angry at the tactics that were used. They're angry about what you just saw John King present, that the President basically claiming he had an agreement. And Democrats will say he had no such thing. He was just saying that to try to convince more middle of the roaders to get onboard with his plan. But ultimately, it will pass the House. And then it's in the Senate's ball court. Senator Daschle saying he has some real concerns.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN TOM DASCHLE (D), MAJORITY LEADER: We've said we'll take some of your tax provisions, if you'll just take the provisions that we care deeply about on health and unemployment for unemployed workers. And I said, "We'll take that."
So we are as clearly on record as I think we can be about our desire to get an agreement. Now what we won't do is spend Social Security and Medicare dollars to pay for tax cuts of a magnitude that some Republicans have proposed for General Motors and IBM. We can't do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SNOW: Again, just to emphasize the point in the Senate the way the rules work, you have to essentially have 60 senators on your side in order to even get something up for a vote. So that means that if Senator Daschle doesn't support this, and he being the majority leader, it's probably not even going to come up for a vote in the Senate before they leave for the holidays at the end of week.
Wolf?
BLITZER: Kate, very briefly, how close are they to that 60 vote margin?
SNOW: Not very close. We think they have 51 right now, which includes three moderate centrist Democrats. But beyond that, it doesn't look like they have the 12 that they would really need in order to pass the bill.
BLITZER: And John King, how's the President going to play this if he and everyone else leaves Washington for the Christmas break without a deal?
KING: Well, this is a return of the blame game, if you will, Wolf. A lot of bipartisanship during the war, but economic issues, a great deal of partisanship, philosophical divide. One of the reasons the President went to Capitol Hill is to try to send the message to the American people that he's trying. In his view, he won't use the words, but his Vice President has, in his view, it is Tom Daschle being obstructionist.
BLITZER: John King at the White House, Kate Snow on Capitol Hill. Thanks to both of you. And perhaps reflecting all the political wrangling, public opinion about the economy and what to do about it is pretty evenly divided, that's according to a new CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll, which shows a 50 to 49 split over economic conditions today.
And when asked if the immediate government action is needed to improve the economy, also an almost even split.
More on the economy and the stimulus debate later on CNN. The Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle talks to our Aaron Brown on "NEWSNIGHT." That's at 10:00 p.m. Eastern, 7:00 p.m. on the West Coast.
And in a moment, we'll continue our exclusive conversation just obtained by CNN. John Walker, the American who became a Taliban recruit.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN WALKER: We spent the night under the basement. Then they let us out one-by-one. They would search each one of us. Then they tied us up. And they put us on the lawn.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back. And let's return now to our lead story. This hour, the American Taliban fighter John Walker. CNN has the only on-camera interview with Walker. It was conducted by journalist Robert Pelton shortly after Walker was taken into custody. That followed a prison uprising in Mazar-e-Sharif.
Now extended excerpts from the interview. Here, Walker describes what happened in that prison uprising.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WALKER: We had arranged with the government that we pass through his territory. We would (INAUDIBLE) from Konduz, passing through his territory to Herat. And we would give them all of our weapons on the way. Either on the way or when we arrived.
So they stopped us. And you have to understand all of the mujahedeen at that point were in a very bad state psychologically. We had withdrawn a great distance and we'd lost a lot around Afghanistan.
So when they stopped us on the way, and they said give all of the weapons, many people were hesitant. So many of them held -- they hid inside of their clothes hand grenades, which is against what we had agreed upon. And this is against Islam, considered a major sin to break a contract that you've made, especially in military situations.
So some of them kept hand grenades with them. And when arrived in the military complex in Mazar-e-Sharif, I think some -- I don't know what nationality or who they were exactly, but some of us -- some of the brothers or -- were very tense. So --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's going to feel a lot better afterwards..
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm giving you morphine now OK?
WALKER: That's fine.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This will take away all of the pain.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He will be happy.
WALKER: Happy.
So anyway, so as soon as we arrived, I remember as soon as I came down from the truck that we arrived in, a grenade exploded right next to the truck. Some, I don't know, what he was thinking or what he was -- but they blew up a grenade.
So the (INAUDIBLE) authorities became afraid of us. And they thought that maybe we had deceived them or something like this. So they immediately put us down in the basement for the night. And I don't know if they intended after that to let us free or interrogate us.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE).
WALKER: And then let us go or what, what they intended. So what happened was, we spent the night under the basement. And they let us out one-by-one. They would search each one of us. Then they tied us up and they put us out in the lawn. So as they were taking us one-by-one, some of the last people to come out again, they were, I don't know, they were afraid or whatever. They did the same thing. They pulled out a grenade and -- they -- anyway, somehow they started fighting with -- starting with a grenade. And one of them grabbed a Klashnkof (ph) from one of the (INAUDIBLE) Army force. And so the fighting began.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: The White House Press Secretary Ari Fleischer said a decision could come this week on what charges to bring, if any, against John Walker. And you can see all of the extended excerpts on a special edition of "THE POINT" with Greta Van Susteren. That's at 8:30 p.m. Eastern tonight. And learn more about Walker from the man conducted the interview. Robert Pelton will be live on "NEWSNIGHT" with Aaron Brown. That's at 10:00 Eastern.
An aspirin a day might keep the doctor away, but one medication might get in the way. When we return, research you may want to take to heart. Later, a job so challenging this man likens it to building a palace on the moon. So why on earth did he accept the offer?
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BLITZER: Welcome back. If you're among the millions of people who take aspirin for its heart protecting qualities, you might want to think twice about also taking ibuprofen. A study out today says it wipes out almost all the beneficial effects of aspirin.
Our medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta joins us from the CNN Center with details. Sanjay?
SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right, Wolf. They say an aspirin day may help keep the cardiologist away, unless you're one of the millions of folks who also takes an ibuprofen everyday.
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GARRET FITZGERALD, UNIV. OF PENNSYLVANIA: We found a common dose of ibuprofen interfered with the ability of aspirin to afford cardio protection.
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GUPTA: And a simple aspirin has been touted for years as having cardio protective effects. That means, preventing heart attacks. It can also prevent strokes. And all of us have heard of ibuprofen, better known as Motrin or Advil, often used to treat common aches or pains.
Dr. Derrick Fitzgerald and his colleagues at the University of Pennsylvania wanted to look at the effects of possibly taking both together.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) FITZGERALD: So many people are taking both low-dose aspirin and pain relievers, we felt it was important to address the possibility of an interaction between these classes of drugs, that might undermine the effectiveness of aspirin as a cardio protective agent.
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GUPTA: Their findings are published in "The New England Journal of Medicine," Wolf. It's a little complicated. Let's try and work through it.
Basically what we're talking about here is, as blood courses through blood vessels here, certain cells called platelets, will sometimes come together in little clumps. These clumps can be dangerous because oftentimes, they can aggregate and subsequently block or completely narrow a blood vessel, causing a heart attack or a stroke.
Aspirin, a medication often given for people who are at risk of this, will sometimes actually prevent those aggregates from ever occurring, thus preventing those same heart attacks or strokes. What Dr. Garret Fitzgerald is concerned about is that if you take ibuprofen, it actually interferes with the mechanism of aspirin being able to do that. So actually, decreases the effects of the aspirin. So it is a concern, Wolf.
BLITZER: Just very briefly, Sanjay, in other words, if I'm taking a little baby aspirin every day to prevent a heart attack or stroke or something like that, and I have an ache or a pain later in the day and I want to take an Advil or a Motrin, that Advil is going to relieve the pain, but it's going to totally negate the effect of that baby aspirin.
GUPTA: That's sort of what the article is talking about, Wolf. It's important to point out that it's usually over a period of several days. If you take an ibuprofen or a Motrin, Advil occasionally, it shouldn't be a problem. But if you're someone who has chronic aches and pains, and you take a few Motrin or Advil every day over a period of weeks, that could be a problem if you're relying on that aspirin to prevent the heart attack or stroke.
BLITZER: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thank you very much.
GUPTA: Thank you.
BLITZER: Appreciate the practical advice.
And when we come back, we'll talk to a man who ignored the advice he was getting, and went down all those stairs at the World Trade Center. He survived, while so many others did not. We'll talk to him right when we get back.
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BLITZER: Welcome back. The number of people killed at the World Trade Center has been revised downward again. Officials now say 3,000 people died there September 11. That's less than half the original estimates. The horror of that day is "USA Today's" cover story, with journalist Dennis Couchon reporting that 99 percent of those who were on floors below the sites where the planes hit the towers did survive.
In the south tower, only four people above the 78th floor survived. And they did it by ignoring the advice of others, and some would say, commonsense.
We're joined now from New York by one them, Brian Clark, who was on the 84th floor. Brian, thank you so much for joining us. And tell our viewers how you managed to survive on the 84th floor, ignoring the advice you were given?
BRIAN CLARK, WTC SURVIVOR: Well, when the plane hit, I was standing along the west wall. And the building was just -- rocked our room, sort of fell apart. And there was a group of seven of us -- made our way through some debris. It was mainly dusty at the time, not smoky.
And we made to the center hall, and turned left, and began to descend stairway A. There are three stairways in the building. We at random picked the one that apparently was intact. The other two, apparently, I didn't realize that at the time, had fallen apart. And of course, we at the time, did not know that a plane had struck our building. We knew it was terrorism, but we began the descent.
We got to the 81st floor. And we were met by a couple of people coming up from a floor below. And the woman, in particular, just told us to stop, go up, there's flames down below. Let's get above it. There began to be a debate with a group of people. At the same time, I heard a voice calling on the 81st floor, a strange voice. I didn't know who it was, but they were calling for help. I grabbed one of my associates by the arm, Ron DeFrancesco, the two of us went in on the 81st floor and found a fellow buried in some debris.
My associate backed off the floor. He was overcome by smoke. And I learned later he actually ascended. He eventually came down the stairs and is a survivor, but when I left the group on the 81st floor, they were helping each other to ascend. That's the last vision I have of these people.
When I dug this fellow, Stanley from Fuji Bank, out of the rubble, we went back to the stairs. There was nobody there. And we just instinctively decided to go down. We didn't see flames. We saw smoke, but we both agreed that we detest, you know, going below. And about five floors below, we passed broken walls with flames and smoke coming out of them, but we were able to descend. And about five or six floors below 81st floor, we broke into clean air.
BLITZER: And the other people, who were going up, they thought that if they got to the top of the building, they'd be rescued by helicopters. Was that the commonsense that they were working under?
CLARK: I don't know anything about them thinking about helicopters. I just thought -- I believe they just thought that they were going down into smoke and flames and wanted to avoid that. I don't know if they were thinking of helicopters at the time.
I know if I had gone up, I might have been thinking about, you know, the fire extinguishers, the sprinkler system putting out the flames. I mean, that came into my mind, but I wasn't thinking personally of helicopters at that time.
BLITZER: When you say instinctively you decided to walk down all those stairs, it was more than instinct. There must have been some logical thought that went through your mind.
CLARK: Well, you know, I didn't see this woman's dress on fire. It was just -- I -- until I was threatened by flames, I was going to keep going down. I'm telling you, it was an instinctive thing to go down and explore. And as you know, we broke through the -- out of the smoke.
BLITZER: And when you were walking down all those flights of stairs, were people climbing up those stairs?
CLARK: There was not a soul. We passed one person on the 68th floor. That's a longer story that I don't need to tell you right now, but a co-worker of mine going back up to help people. And that was the only person we passed on the stairs. No firemen, no other evacuees on the whole descent to the ground.
BLITZER: So looking back on that awful day right now, and it must have been literally obviously hell for you, and I'm sure you're relieved that you've managed to make that decision, but what has gone through your mind all these since then, these 100 days?
CLARK: I feel blessed, truly. I was in a bubble that day. It is a miracle that I got through all of that. I'm sleeping well at night. That also is a miracle. I am not stressed by the event. And I don't say that, that it's anything that I've done. It's just a gift that's been given to me.
And it's so sad. You know, that's always on your mind. Our company is -- we lost 61 people in total of our 280 employees. And the sadness just pervades our company. We've gone to almost that many memorial services or funerals over the last 100 days. Each person can't go to every funeral or memorial service, but you do the best you can. But being together has been a help. And the sadness isn't -- doesn't go away, but there's comfort in us going together. It's just so sad we aren't all there.
BLITZER: You know, some survivors of this tragedy and other tragedies go on through their lives and they ask, "Why me, why did I manage to survive when so many other good people did not?" Is there any sense of guilt that you may have? I'm sure you have heard of this phenomenon that develops?
CLARK: Personally, I don't feel guilt. I feel at every moment I did the best I could. I stayed back on the floor to -- as a fire marshal to get people off the floor. There was an announcement for people come back up to our floor. It felt like the pressure was back off. So there was a relaxation. Then when that second plane hit, you know, there was chaos, and some organized panic, if that's a correct phrase. I personally don't feel guilty. I feel terribly, terribly sad. But I've got things to do ahead in my life.
I'm fortunate that I've been appointed to be president of the Euro Broker's Relief Fund. And we're raising funds to try and help the families of our lost co-workers and the families of uniformed rescue service, you know, scholarships, health benefits. We haven't figured out our application procedures yet, but so far, we've raised money. And our board has recently been constituted. We are a legal 501-C-3 corporation now . So we're going to be making an application and make that available to people to appeal for funds.
BLITZER: And looking down the road, do you see yourself as hero for what you managed to achieve?
CLARK: No, I reject that. And it's almost -- I'm not criticizing you, but I am embarrassed at interviews like this because I -- it is nothing that Brian Clark did special that day. There was some instincts involved and there were some miracles involved. I'm here to tell a story, but it wasn't really me that did much that day. I survived, as did many, many other people, but I don't feel like I'm a hero.
BLITZER: And you obviously have a new purpose in life after September 11?
CLARK: Yes, I feel blessed. And I've been given an opportunity to live longer, but also to do some good.
BLITZER: And in the immediate future you, you're going to be going back to work, but you're also going to be involved in this foundation?
CLARK: Absolutely. We're -- I'm dedicating 100 percent of my time. Fortunately my firm has allowed me to do that. And I've been appointed and given that challenge. And I relish it. And I hope we do some good things.
BLITZER: Brian Clark, thank you so much for joining us. And obviously, we are impressed by what you managed to accomplished, even though you don't want to be called a hero. Thank you very much for joining us.
CLARK: Thank you, Wolf.
BLITZER: And you can learn more about the victims of the September 11 attacks. Visit our web site, www.cnn.com/memorial, where we set up a tribute to thousands of those who lost their lives that day. The AOL key word is "CNN."
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Thanks very much watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.
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