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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports
Will White House Pursue Treason Charges Against John Walker?
Aired December 20, 2001 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Now on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS: "America Strikes Back."
American John Walker fought with the Taliban.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN WALKER, AMERICAN TALIBAN: My heart became attached to them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Will the White House pursue treason charges?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The president is continuing to receive recommendations about the best course of action.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: We will get legal insight from famed defense attorney, Alan Dershowitz.
Combing the caves of Tora Bora, and sending in the Marines to hunt for Osama bin Laden.
Hello, I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. It's been 100 days since the September 11 terrorist attacks. And as President Bush targets more terrorist organizations, we can tell you more about what was lost in the translation of that famous videotape of Osama bin Laden. CNN national security correspondent David Ensor will join us later this hour with the words left out of the official translation.
Also, breaking news we're following right now out of South America, where the president of Argentina is going to resign in the face of deadly riots in the wake of an economic crisis.
But first, a quick check of all of the latest developments. About 100 people were wounded today in an explosion in northern Afghanistan. Officials in the city of Mazar-e Sharif are calling the blast a terrorist act. It rocked an open air market late this afternoon. Mazar-e Sharif was the scene of some of the bloodiest fighting between the Northern Alliance and the Taliban. Up to 500 U.S. Marines may be rushed to the hills of Tora Bora, to assume the lead role in the dangerous work of searching and bombing -- looking for those bombed-out abandoned caves. The Marines could arrive in the next few days from the U.S. bases that are near Kandahar.
The vanguard of an international peacekeeping force arrived today in Afghanistan. The British-led force is to total as many as 6,000 troops. The British Marines, who arrived today, will help provide security Saturday at the swearing-in ceremony of Afghanistan's new president, Hamid Karzai.
On the 100th day since the September 11 terror attacks, President Bush took aim at two more groups of militants today. At the White House, Mr. Bush announced he will seek to freeze the assets of a Pakistani group alleged to have helped Osama bin Laden trying to inquire nuclear information, and a group operating from Kashmir that's alleged to have had a role in the attack last week against India's parliament. We'll hear what the president had to say and examine that explosive situation between Pakistan and India, later this hour.
But first today, the case of John Walker, the Islamic holy warrior from northern California. The vexing question it raises is how a privileged young man such as this one could end up fighting with the Taliban.
But there's another question, and it rests with President Bush. Should this American citizen be tried as a traitor? First to the White House. Our White House correspondent, Major Garrett, is standing by on this issue that Mr. Bush is handling, of course, with utmost caution -- Major.
MAJOR GARRETT, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, let's get to the John Walker case in a moment. If I could, let me just give you some reaction here at the White House -- at the Treasury Department, exactly -- to the situation evolving in Argentina.
The Treasury Department, through a senior official, has just told CNN the Bush administration has no intention at all of stepping in to intervene to provide financial assistance to Argentina in any way. As you may well know, Wolf, that country has racked up more than $135 billion in official government debt.
A senior Treasury Department official telling CNN that the Bush administration brought the finance minister of Argentina and other top aides here to Washington in August. They had suggested ways Argentina could work its way out of the situation. Those recommendations were not heeded. A senior official telling CNN that that chaotic situation in Argentina now was widely anticipated by the Bush administration.
The Treasury Department is not ruling out some minor assistance in the future, but right now the official word from the Bush administration, at least from the Treasury Department, is it's going to let this situation, chaotic as it is, play itself out on the streets of Argentina. Now on to the John Walker case. Ari Fleischer, the White House press secretary, made it clear today that no options, treason or other forms of civilian criminal trial charges, have been ruled out against John Walker. The Pentagon and the Justice Department are weighing in on this. But Mr. Fleischer said to reporters today, all options remain on the president's table.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The president hasn't ruled anything in or out, because no determinations have been made. And he hasn't received all the word yet. from investigators, from the advisers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GARRETT: Wolf, this has really worked in a two stage process. First the military got to John Walker and tried to extract as much tactical information about military actions al Qaeda may or may not be considering, or trying to take.
Now Justice Department investigators, through the FBI, are with John Walker now, trying to also find out as much information relevant to possible charges, be they criminal or treason. Those things have yet to all be collected. Not all of the fact are at the White House. The White House is telling us not to expect any announcement on this case, either this week. And may not even next week -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Major Garrett at the White House, thank you very much.
And if the John Walker case presents political challenges, there are also legal hurdles, especially if Walker is charged with treason. Joining us now to talk about that, from Boston, the constitutional lawyer and Harvard law professor, Alan Dershowitz.
Thanks, Alan, for joining us. And let's begin with the issue of treason. As you know, there are a lot of people who would like to charge him with treason. The Constitution says this, as you well know, your could probably say it by heart.
Let me read it to our viewers: "Treason against the United States shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering tot heir enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or in on confession in open court."
Could the government, if it wants to, make a strong case that he committed treason?
ALAN DERSHOWITZ, CONSTITUTIONAL LAWYER: President Bush is absolutely right, keeping all of the options open and waiting until all of the evidence comes in. What we don't know yet is what the circumstances were when he joined the Taliban. They were not, after all, at that time, taking up arms against the United States. They were taking up arms against their other enemies. They were supporting al Qaeda. So the question really is, what did he know, when did he know it? Did he continue on with his loyalty to Taliban? Did he join al Qaeda after knowing that they were in effect waging war against the United States? It would be a plausible case, but a difficult case.
It would be a defense lawyer's dream, because it would give any defense lawyer an opportunity to make all kinds of important constitutional arguments of first impression. It would have to go all the way up to the United States Supreme Court, because they have never considered a treason case quite like this, which is why I think that prudent minds in the end will prevail.
Probably, a plea bargain will be reached. But if not, he will be charged with specific offenses, which can be proved against him without having to go through the hurdles of proving treason.
BLITZER: Let me run a brief excerpt from that CNN exclusive interview that aired last night with John Walker, in which there seems to be a very damning indictment of him of his allegiance. Listen to this segment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
QUESTION: Were you with the Taliban all the time? Or were do you doing something else?
WALKER: The Taliban have a separate branch in the army. They have Afghan and they have the non-Afghans. I was with the separate branch, the non-Afghans.
QUESTION: And what is the non-Afghani branch called?
WALKER: It is called Enzar (ph). It means the helpers. The Arab section of the Enzar is funded by Osama bin Laden. Also, the training camps, the Arabs train before they come to the front lines, are funded by Osama bin Laden.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Alan, as you heard, he says he worked with Enzar, the Arab funded part of al Qaeda, of course, Osama bin Laden's organization.
DERSHOWITZ: Yeah, there is no question he makes damning admissions. Also, no question, those are admissible. Those were not Miranda-needed statements. They were made to a journalist, a great journalist, who managed to get that story for CNN.
So, those are admissions. But remember too, that treason is not a crime of the mind, it's not even a crime of words. It's a crime of actions. And it's going to have to be proved that at the time that he engaged in the actions he seems to admit, that he knew and had a choice, and had the option of leaving and not taking arms up against the United States.
So I think it'll be a very, very tough case to make. I think the government is going about it exactly right. First they're trying to get information from him -- and you don't need Miranda or lawyers to do that. That's battlefield information.
Second, they're sending in FBI agents that are trained to operate under American law, to try to get admissible statements against him. And they're apparently involved in perhaps ongoing negotiations. That's why I think the White House announced today, don't expect anything to happen quickly. It may take weeks. That sounds to me like an ongoing negotiation, or at least a contemplated negotiation is in the works.
BLITZER: What about the argument his father makes, that he was simply a misguided young boy, 20 years old. He got brainwashed, if you will, and he really didn't know what he was doing.
DERSHOWITZ: Well, he's not the first person to be seduced into this kind of activity. Twenty-year-olds, all the time. Radical groups, religious groups -- brainwashing is not a defense in this kind of context.
It's not like the Patty Hearst case. He wasn't held in a closet. He wasn't abused or raped, or subject to all kinds of threats. He made a decision on his own and he describes it very articulately. He became a religious Muslim. He decided to join the cause. The Taliban were very well thought of and very well spoken of.
That doesn't sound like brainwashing. That sounds like a young, impressionable man, according to the law, making a decision which he probably, I hope now, regrets. And the fact that he was 20 is a consideration on sentencing, which is why I think they won't eventually opt to seek treason and the death penalty.
This doesn't sound like a death penalty case to me. But it doesn't sound like a case where we just say, gee, sorry, we understand you. Now go back to college and complete your work. It's certainly a very serious crime, for which he is culpable and responsible. At least if the evidence is what it seems to be.
BLITZER: Alan Dershowitz, the famed constitutional lawyer, the Harvard law professor. Thank you very much for joining us.
DERSHOWITZ: Thank you very much.
BLITZER: And we're following a breaking news story out of Argentina. Our Lucia Newman is standing by right now in Buenos Aires with details on the imminent resignation, we're told, Lucia, Of the president of Argentina involving the deadly riots that are unfolding there now.
What's the latest, Lucia?
LUCIA NEWMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, good evening. Right now there are widespread disturbances here in downtown Buenos Aires, near Buenos Aires' famous obelisk. I'm speaking to you now in front of the presidential palace. Things are fairly quiet here. But in other parts of the city, police are still battling with protesters with tear gas, on horseback, wielding rubber batons and also water cannons. But the protesters just will not give in.
They are of course, demanding the resignation of President Fernando de la Rua. And by all accounts, that resignation will take place in about 45 minutes more. He is expected to address the nation there. Just a few hours ago, he had addressed the nation, for second time in 18 hours, calling for a coalition government, a government of national unity, with the main opposition party, the Perinos Party. But that party says no-go, and wants nothing do with sharing responsibility for getting this country out of its crisis.
And even according to President Fernando de la Rua, without that kind of national unity, it is almost impossible to govern here. So he is expected now to be forced to resign. It's also hoped that if that resignation comes, and comes quickly, that would help quell the widespread disturbances here that police are unable to put out -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Lucia, give our viewers some background. These economic disturbances, the economy in Argentina. What sparked this round of deadly violence?
NEWMAN: The president was forced to declare a state of siege yesterday in this country, following widespread food riots all over the country. Thousands and thousands of impoverished Argentines, people that were once middle classed, with nothing to eat, sacking supermarkets. Many times, police just standing by and letting them raid warehouses. Absolutely starving, they say. People who are out of work. There's 20 percent unemployment here. And people say they've just had enough.
This follows four years, almost four years, of deep recession in this country, Wolf. And this new government, which has been in power for two years, had a mandate to get the country out of recession. Instead, it's even deeper in debt than the country ever has been. The country is on the brink of defaulting on a massive $132 billion debt. And only austerity measures are the answers they get from the previous economy minister, who had to resign earlier today.
So people have just reached their limit. And that is why they started rioting. And is what led to the situation the country is in now, which is basically a political power vacuum, Wolf.
BLITZER: Lucia Newman in Buenos Aires in Argentina, following a breaking story that we'll be continuing to cover, obviously in the next several hours and days. Thank you so much, and stand by over there.
Let's get back now to the war in Afghanistan. As we just reported, several hundred United States Marines may be sent into those caves in the Tora Bora region of eastern Afghanistan. The caves are believed to have housed hundreds of militants who were driven from the region only last weekend. Osama bin Laden may have himself been there. He may have been killed, or he may have left clues as to where he is headed. A small force of commandos is going through the caves right now. But the Pentagon wants a bigger presence, and it wants it there fast.
Joining us now to talk more about this, Michael Vickers. He's formerly with the U.S. Army special forces. Michael, thanks for joining us. Give is your sense, this mission of the Marines, these special operations forces, are about to undertake. Cave by cave search: How difficult is this?
MICHAEL VICKERS, U.S. ARMY SPECIAL FORCES (RET): This is dangerous and dirty work, and something that has to be approached very carefully. The way the Marines typically would go about this, or army units, if they were so tasked, is to use our surveillance assets first, our overhead predator, reconnaissance aircraft, to look at an area. And the to push surveillance cameras forward in, and to have any unit that moves, you have to assume you're moving into contact. And so they would be protected by covering fire.
And of course, the Marines or soldiers that do this, tremendous adrenaline, tremendous tension, so they have to be relieved fairly frequently as well.
BLITZER: And they have to worry about booby traps. Some of those caves could be booby trapped. There's probably a lot of land mines in that area, as well.
VICKERS: There are land mines all over Afghanistan. There could be booby traps left by from al Qaeda. Although, it looks like they left in a hurry, from the caves we've seen so far. But there could be just fragile ordinants, that -- a lot of it looks like it has been indiscriminately tossed. And some of it could be unstable for that reason.
BLITZER: Give us a sense how elaborate these caves are. I've heard reports they go for kilometers.
VICKERS: The whole region is very difficult terrain, and just covered with caves. And so that's why we're looking for larger forces, rather than the special forces that we have there now.
BLITZER: And the assumption that a lot of these al Qaeda fighters, Taliban supporters, crossed into Pakistan, got away. But presumably there's some signs that may have been left behind, that the special operations forces will be looking for.
VICKERS: I think so. One, we want to collect intelligence. But there is a reasonable possibility that senior al Qaeda people are still in Afghanistan, rather than Pakistan, or maybe dead in a cave. So we would like to know that if we can.
BLITZER: And the U.S., of course, launched enormous rounds of airstrikes at those caves, including some huge, huge bombs. You go through those caves and you're looking at bodies. Do they immediately try to determine who some of these people might be, if they're leaders, for example?
VICKERS: Well, the first level problem is an engineering problem, in some cases, cleaning away the debris from the caves that we bombed. At least we know the ones we targeted, and could go to those, if we have reason to believe that's where we'll find them. But yes, it may take some time to sort out who's who, depending on what happened in the strike.
BLITZER: And technically, it's still very possible that Osama bin Laden could have been in one of those caves that was bombed. He might be dead.
VICKERS: That's right.
BLITZER: That's one of the things they'll be looking for. Michael Vickers, thanks for joining us.
VICKERS: My pleasure.
BLITZER: Appreciate it.
Where's the next front in America's war on terrorism? I'll ask the former national security adviser, Brent Scowcroft, as well as Senators Chuck Hagel and Evan Bayh, when they join me tonight in the CNN WAR ROOM.
That's at 7:00 p.m. Eastern, 4:00 Pacific. You can participate by going to my Web site at cnn.com/wolf. Click on "Send Questions." I will try to get as many of those questions answered by our panel. While you're there, you can read my daily on-line column, which includes my experience last night at the White House Christmas party with the president and the first lady.
Many of those exposed to anthrax face a decision: should they take the vaccine? We'll talk to the Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, next. Plus, a World Trade Center survivor and the men who helped saved her. It's a reunion you will remember. We'll take you there. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back. The Department of Health and Human Services has decided to make the anthrax vaccine available to about 3,000 people believed to have been exposed to the anthrax-tainted letters. But a CNN medical correspondent, Rea Blakey, reports that decision is very controversial.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
REA BLAKEY, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A new Centers for Disease Control report shows that anthrax contamination at Washington's Brentwood postal facility was more widespread than originally suspected. Will that sway postal workers faced with deciding whether to take the anthrax vaccine?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't think I would actually take it. I would continue the antibiotics.
BLAKEY: Saying there is inadequate science, the CDC is not formally recommending the anthrax vaccine. But it is urging certain high risk people to take the three shots: Anyone who had contact with the five people who died of inhalational anthrax, anyone who came in contact with the powder that contained the deadly spores, and anyone in an environment where a high concentration of anthrax has been confirmed. Like, Washington's Brentwood postal facility.
Those who do agree to take the anthrax vaccine must sign a lengthy consent form, which indicates the potential benefits are "theoretical," since the vaccine is an unknown entity. Though it is approved for use prior to anthrax exposure, taking it after exposure is considered investigational.
(on camera): CDC officials say at least 38 Capitol Hill staffers have been given the anthrax vaccine by way of the Capitol Hill physician's office. But the District of Columbia department is against taking the vaccine, criticizing the CDC for not making specific recommendations for those considered at greatest risk.
DR. IVAN WALKS, D.C. HEALTH DIRECTOR: You don't just offer people an option. If you can't figure it out, how are they and their local doctors supposed to figure it out?
BLAKEY: The anthrax vaccine has been controversial from the start. Its manufacturer is still completing safety inspections at its facility, though the Food and Drug Administration says the vaccine is safe. Half a million U.S. service personnel have already been given a serious of six shots. The Department of Defense says only 1 in 100,000 people have severe allergic reaction.
Rea Blakey, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: For some more perspective now on the issue of anthrax vaccinations, we're joined by Dr. Anthony Fauci. He's the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases. Dr. Fauci, thanks for joining us.
You can't blame a lot of those people for being confused. You heard Dr. Ivan Walks comments and Rea Blakey's report just, now saying that if the CDC and the Department of Health and Human Services can't make a flat recommendation, what are individuals supposed to do?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, NAT. INST. OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: Well, it is a very difficult situation. I think it's based on the fact that there is an unusual issue here, and that is that there are theoretical considerations with no scientific proof at all that this is going to be beneficial.
And once you use something, this vaccine, within the framework that it has not been used before, it technically really becomes what we call an investigational new drug, or an IND. So it isn't something that has proven value when you say the value is proven, we can recommend or not recommend that you take it.
But the situation, that there had been a lot of (UNINTELLIGIBLE) in fact the people on the Hill had felt very strongly that on the basis of the theoretical possibility that it might help, that they really wanted it. So if they really wanted it and it was held back from them, there would a lot of concern there. If you're going to make it available to the people on the Hill, then you really have to make it available to other people who might want it. But you can't really definitively recommend to take it, because there's no scientific data to indicate that it would help. I agree, it's a very tough situation, but that's just the way the situation is, unfortunately.
BLITZER: Dr. Fauci, we're going to take a quick break. I want to try to fix our audio. There seems to be a hiss in what you're saying. We're going to take a quick break, we're going to work on that problem. When we come back, we'll continue this conversation. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back. We're going to get back to Dr. Anthony Fauci in just a few minutes, as soon as we work out a technical problem. We're also going to have a debate on the economic stimulus package: why you're not going to be getting any immediate benefits from the U.S. Congress.
But first, let's do a quick check of the latest developments in "America's New War." About 100 people were wounded today in an explosion in northern Afghanistan. Officials in the city of Mazar-e Sharif are calling the blast a terrorist act. It rocked an open air market late this afternoon. Mazar-e Sharif was the scene of some of the bloodiest fighting between the Northern Alliance and the Taliban.
Up to 500 United States Marines may be rushed to the hills of Tora Bora. The mission: to assume the lead role in the dangerous work of searching the abandoned caves. The Marines could arrive in the next few days in the U.S. bases near Kandahar.
President Bush is taking aim at two more militant groups. At the White House, the president announced he will seek to freeze the assets of a Pakistani group alleged to have helped Osama bin Laden get nuclear information. He's also freezing the money of a group operating from Kashmir that's alleged to have had a role in the attack last week on India's parliament.
A week ago today, the Bush administration released perhaps the most damning evidence of Osama bin Laden's involvement in the September attacks. The videotape of bin Laden boasting about the attacks was translated by a team of translators brought in by the government. But there were some lapses. Our national security correspondent David Ensor joins me now with more on what may have been lost on the translation -- David.
DAVID ENSOR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, the tape is famous by now, to most people around the world, for showing Osama bin Laden bragging about the attacks of September 11. What a Saudi dissident now says, and an independent translator hired by CNN confirmed, is that the U.S. government left some significant parts of what bin Laden said out, of its official translation into English.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALI AL-AHMED, SAUDI INSTITUTE: The translators missed a lot of things on the tape. They missed names of the hijackers, two of them mentioned by full names. They missed that four hijackers who come from the same tribe were also mentioned not by name, but by their tribe name.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ENSOR: That was Ali Al-Ahmed of the Saudi Institute.
On the tape, bin Laden names two additional hijackers, the brothers Nawaq Alhamzi and Salem Alhamzi. Later, he says that four other hijackers were from the Al-Ghamdi (ph) tribe. And he names two more Al-Shekri (ph). Including Mohamed Atta then, he names nine of the hijackers, not just one -- also left out of the translation, the names of three Saudi clerics that his visitor says have publicly backed the attacks, at least one of them a government official.
And one more striking example of a detail left out in the government translations: bin Laden's description of exactly what he said to others just before the radio announcement was heard that the first of the attacks has succeeded.
"When you hear a breaking news announcements on the radio," he says, he told followers at that point, "kneel immediately. And that means they have hit the World Trade Center" -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Is there an explanation you are getting from U.S. officials on why they missed those translations?
ENSOR: There is a variety of issues here. One is that the tape is very hard to hear. The audio is bad. Another one is that they were working under a fast deadline trying to get the tape out faster than they had expected, given the fact the news that the tape existed broke over the news media.
Another is -- and this is an allegation made by Mr. Al-Ahmed --he believes that some of translators were not in fact up to date with Saudi colloquial English -- Saudi colloquial Arabic, excuse me -- that some of them came from other countries in the region and just simply missed some of the words.
BLITZER: And have they had a chance -- because, when Ari Fleischer, the White House press secretary, was asked about this at his briefing earlier today, he said he didn't know anything about this lapse in the translation. Have any other officials come forward and offered any more specific reaction?
ENSOR: Well, U.S. officials say they do stand by the Arabic translation -- the Arabic transcript, I should say, that was put out a couple of days later. And since this tape, in many ways, the release of it was aimed at the Arabic-speaking world to show them that Osama bin Laden has admitted he was involved in this, perhaps it's the Arabic that really counts.
BLITZER: And I guess the bottom line is, he knew, at least, on the original translation, some of hijackers. Now we have learned that he has known some others. So that's just more damning evidence against him.
ENSOR: That's right. The tape -- the changes, the additions that we're making here don't change the basic message: that bin Laden admits on the tape he was behind these attacks and even boasts about them.
BLITZER: OK, David Ensor, good reporting. Thank you very much.
And the stall over the economic stimulus is coming up -- new tensions as well between two nuclear powers. When we come back: what Pakistan's foreign minister is saying that is ratcheting up tension another notch with India.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back.
New rules were announced today governing the distribution of money for those who lost loved one in the September 11 terrorist attacks. The interim rules established by Justice Department special master Kenneth Feinberg say family members should receive at least $500,000, but no more than $3 million. The money will be tax free. And eligibility issues such as same-sex partnerships have not yet been resolved.
Some think the rules are already unfair.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHEN PUSH, WIDOWER: They provided this fund, which was supposed to provide full, economic -- full payment for economic losses and also noneconomic losses, pain and suffering. And the interim regulations that Mr. Feinberg has revealed today will only give us limited economic compensation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Recipients can receive an immediate advance payment of up to $50,000.
On Capitol Hill, the economic stimulus bill made its way through the House early today, but it now faces the daunting task of passing through a Democratic-controlled Senate.
We have two people with us who fall on opposite sides of the political fence when it comes to the fate of this plan: the republican Senator, Charles Grassley of Iowa, and the Democratic senator, Bob Graham of Florida. Thanks to both of you for joining us.
A lot of people were hoping for a Christmas present. They didn't get it with this economic package. Why?
SEN. CHUCK GRASSLEY (R), IOWA: Senator Daschle did not want to bring it up. When we asked for unanimous consent to bring it up, he objected.
Now, remember, this is a White House, centrist compromise. It was brought before the Senate, that, candidly, did not have 60 votes to stop debate. But it did have a majority vote to pass the Senate. And we think, since it helped dislocated workers, unemployed workers, it gives tax rebates to low-income people, it encourages investment, that it is something that should have passed, should have passed by Christmas.
BLITZER: Senator Graham, it sounds like it was a good deal.
SEN. BOB GRAHAM (R), FLORIDA: I don't think so.
There was an agreement early on as to what the principle should be in any stimulus: one, that it actually had to have an effect on the economy in the next 12 months; two, that it couldn't affect long-term interest rates in a negative way and therefore drive up the cost of buying a house or a car; and, three, that it could not put an undue burden on the federal government's fiscal condition over the next 10 years. By those principles, this legislation got an F.
BLITZER: Democrats obviously did not like all the tax cuts in there, presumably for the big corporations.
GRAHAM: Well, the bond market was up yesterday. I don't know about today. That ought to prove that the long-term impact of this was not in doubt in anybody's mind.
Also remember that when this process started to develop this bipartisan legislation that we ended up with, we had Greenspan representing the administration, or at least the Federal Reserve Board. We had Secretary Rubin representing Democratic point of view. He was a former secretary of treasury. They said that we needed a stimulus package. It ought to encourage investment and it ought help dislocated workers. And that is what this bill does.
BLITZER: But now the dislocated workers, Senator Graham, are not going to get any immediate help from the federal government as far as an economic stimulus package is concerned.
GRAHAM: For the next 30 days, correct. We are going to be back in session on the 21st of January. And I imagine this will be topic No. 1. The question is: Should we have bought this package now and not waited until we could have a better result in just a month from now?
As an example, this... BLITZER: The biggest sticking point, as far as you were concerned, Senator Graham, was what, the insurance for -- the medical insurance?
GRAHAM: No. The biggest sticking point is, it was not an economic stimulus package. First, it cost too much. The president had laid out a parameter this should be within $60 billion, $75 billion. The bill that passed the House last night was $160 billion, more than twice
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: Senator Grassley, specifically on this, you're fiscally conservative. Why spend all this money when the federal government is already now in deficit?
GRASSLEY: Nineteen of the $22 billion dollars -- or 19 of that increase over 75 went to help dislocated workers, more specifically for their health benefits. Why? Because that was something that the Democrats put a very high priority on. We Republicans did, too. The president did, not as much as the Democrats. But we came around to a compromise of about 19 the first year over a two-year period of time, about $22 billion for help for dislocated workers.
This is most major change in social policy for dislocated workers since unemployment compensation was passed in the 1930s.
BLITZER: So why couldn't you get enough Democrats, moderate Democrats, centrist Democrats, to get that up to 60 that you needed to break any potential filibuster?
GRASSLEY: Senator Baucus and I -- or, Senator Baucus was not free, as chairman of the committee, to negotiate with me and other Republicans, because there was a nonwritten rule within the Democrat caucus that their negotiator couldn't do anything that at least two- thirds of Democrats -- you can't negotiate.
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: That point is a contentious point, an important point. Senator Daschle is accused of having caved in, saying two-thirds of the Democrats would have to go along before he signed off on anything.
GRAHAM: The fact is, there were only, at most, two or three or four Democrats who were prepared to vote for this package because it cost too much. The tax part alone, putting aside dislocated workers, was almost twice what the president had asked in his original request for an economic stimulus package.
The biggest single tax provision was to reduce the tax rates of the middle- and higher-income earners, the effect of which, almost four of every $5 of that took effect after 12 months from now, which means that it was not likely to have any kind of impact on the recession that we are trying to affect.
BLITZER: Senator Grassley, these tax cuts were a bone of contention with the Democrats, especially the tax cuts for the wealthy and for the big corporations.
GRASSLEY: Well, see how balanced this is.
There's the middle-income taxpayers, starting at $27,000-a-year income, is going to get a 2 percent reduction in their tax rates. That's costing about $12 billion dollars next year. Republicans were concerned, as Democrats were, of helping low-income people. There's $14 billion in this package for tax rebates to low-income people. And then there's $19 billion in it for dislocated workers.
It seems to me to be a very balanced plan. It's wrong for Democrats to say it cost too much when they wanted to spend $17 billion more than what the president wanted to spend on dislocated worker programs.
BLITZER: He had the first word. You're going to have the last word, Senator Graham. But what makes you think when you come back from recess in January that the landscape will change, that you will be able to work out a compromise then that you couldn't work out now?
GRAHAM: Because I'm an optimist. And I believe that good people like Senator Grassley who want to reach a reasonable position will be able to work together without the kind of end-of-the-session pressure that we just had. I'm afraid that, had we acted now, we would have passed a bill under the banner of economic stimulus which would have had very little effect to shorten or reduce the impact of this recession through which we are now living and would have diluted our willingness to do something that really was worthwhile in January.
BLITZER: If it were probably just Senator Graham and Senator Grassley, there would be a deal. But there are 98 other senators. And that is a problem.
(LAUGHTER)
GRASSLEY: We did that on the trade promotion bill. He was a partner with me on that.
BLITZER: And you will probably be partners down the road.
Thanks again for joining us on this program. Good luck to you. Have a merry Christmas a happy New Year.
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: Thank you.
And for more information on the economic stimulus bill, you can head to our politics page at CNN.com/allpolitics. It's a great page. The AOL keyword is CNN.
President Bush's latest terror target allegedly has a role in last week's attack on India's parliament -- next, the tensions between Pakistan and India and how it impacts on America's war against terrorism. And later: When the World Trade Center fell, this woman fell with it. A survivor reunites with the men who saved her life -- a remarkable story.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back.
In the Rose Garden today, President Bush moved to cut off the financing of two terror groups, one that is suspected of providing nuclear secrets to al Qaeda, the other a Pakistani group that Mr. Bush says is trying to destroy already fragile relations between India and Pakistan.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: American power will be used against all terrorists of global reach. And so today I'm adding another terrorist organization to the list of those whose assets are blocked by my executive order. Lashkar-i-Taiba is an extremist group based in Kashmir. LAT is a stateless sponsor of terrorism, and it hopes to destroy relations between Pakistan and India and undermine Pakistani's President Musharraf.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: And the president's action comes a week after attack on India's parliament which left 14 people dead.
Joining me now for some perspective on all of this is Sumit Ganguly. She (sic) is with the University of Texas in the Consul on Foreign Relations -- he.
Excuse me very much, sir. Thanks so much for joining us, Sumit.
Give us your sense. How dangerous is the situation right now between India and Pakistan, both nuclear countries, over the disputed territory of Kashmir?
SUMIT GANGULY, UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS: The situation is really quite ugly between India and Pakistan. In fact, it has not reached this low ebb for a very long time. The attack on the Indian parliament by the Lashkar-i-Taiba and most likely another group, the Jaish-i-Mohammed, was an extraordinarily daring and extraordinarily brazen attack.
And, consequently, tempers are very high in New Delhi, and understandably so. And Pakistan, unfortunately, has spoken from both corners of its mouth. One the one hand, General Musharraf has condemned the attack. But then Rashid Qureshi, his spokesperson, has hinted perhaps Indian intelligence might have orchestrated this attack to embarrass Pakistan. This has been rather unhelpful and has generated even stronger tempers in New Delhi. BLITZER: As you well know, the United States government has dramatically improved relations with Pakistan since September 11. Pakistan is seen as critical in the U.S. war against al Qaeda and Taliban in neighboring Afghanistan. How is that viewed in India, where there's always suspicion about Pakistan?
GANGULY: As you correctly suggest, this is viewed with some degree of trepidation in India, particularly at a time when India's relations with the United States were on a clear upswing. And then September 11 came on.
And because of Pakistan's intimate links with the Taliban, and because of Pakistan's geography, the United States' force had to rely on Pakistan to be able to carry out raids against the Taliban and to obtain information about the Taliban. And this necessitated improving relations with Pakistan. And the Indians worry that this might come at their cost.
BLITZER: The decision by President Bush today to freeze the assets of this one terrorist group so much involved in the battle over Kashmir, how will that be received in both India and Pakistan?
GANGULY: Well, certainly in India, this will be viewed as a welcome decision. It's a decision that should have come somewhat earlier. But at least the Indians will say better last than never.
This will enable the Indian foreign policy establishment to go to the Indian people and say: Look, the United States is not oblivious to our concerns.
In Pakistan, of course, it doesn't make a huge difference, except in so far General Musharraf can certainly turn to the LAT, the Lashkar-i-Taiba, and say: Look, it's your activities that have gotten you into trouble.
But, frankly speaking, General Musharraf has been rather disingenuous about the operation of these groups. He has not cracked down upon them, either prior to September 11. He had not cracked down. And certainly after September 11, he hasn't doesn't much to crack down upon them. But he can certainly shift the blame to the United States. It doesn't directly affect him.
BLITZER: Professor Ganguly, thank you so much for joining us. We are going to continue to follow this story, the situation in Kashmir obviously one of the most dangerous in the world. We will get a perspective from Pakistan tomorrow.
Now let's take a look at some other stories on our "Newswire": President Bush has averted a strike by United Airlines mechanics. That strike could have come as soon as tomorrow, the start of the busy holiday travel season. But the president signed an order to create an emergency board which imposes a 60-day cooling-off period.
A lockdown is in effect at the California state prison in Lancaster about 40 miles north of Los Angeles. Officials there say about 300 inmates were involved in a brawl that left seven of them injured. Guards used pepper spray, tear gas and rubber bullets to end the fighting.
Telecommunications companies Comcast and AT&T have reached a $47 billion deal to merge their cable television operations. The new company would have about 22 million customers in 17 of the nation's 20 largest metropolitan areas. The deal is expected to be completed at the end of the year.
Let's get a preview of what is ahead next on "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE." Lou Dobbs is standing by to tell us what he has -- Lou.
LOU DOBBS, "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE": Wolf, thank you.
Coming up next: The White House marks the 100th day in the war against terrorism, announcing today two more strikes against the financing of the al Qaeda terrorist the network. U.S. special forces are continuing the cave-by-cave search in Tora Bora. We will have a live report for you from Afghanistan. CNN military analyst General David Grange will be here.
And a winner has emerged from a five-month bidding war for AT&T's cable business. I will be talking with the leaders behind the deal: AT&T's Michael Armstrong, Comcast President Brian Roberts -- all of that and a lot more coming up at the top of the hour -- now back to you, Wolf.
BLITZER: Thank you very much, Lou.
And 100 days ago, she was buried underneath the rubble of the World Trade Center. Up next: The last and luckiest survivor meets the men who saved her life.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: In the chaos of the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center, many people crossed paths never to connect again. But that's not the case with the last survivor to be pulled from the rubble and those who saved her.
CNN's Gary Tuchman has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RICK CUSHMAN, RESCUER: It's great to see you.
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The last time Genelle Guzman saw these two men, she had just been rescued after 27 hours buried in the rubble of the World Trade Center.
BRIAN BUCHANAN, RESCUER: You have got to be the luckiest person I have ever seen in my life.
TUCHMAN: Brian Buchanan and Rick Cushman were working with the Pitsteel (ph) Massachusetts Emergency Management Agency at ground zero. Genelle was on the 13th floor of the north tower when it collapsed. She plummeted to the ground, but somehow survived the fall. However, she was pinned under concrete and couldn't see or hear anything.
CUSHMAN: The reason you were found was actually because they spotted a fireman's jacket. And the basic rules, our firefighters take care of their own. So a firefighter went up to get him. And that's how you were found.
BLITZER: Genelle was next to two firemen. They were both dead. She was pulled out of the rubble with fire still burning under her, placed in a basket and then lowered down to Buchanan and Cushman.
BUCHANAN: Just as she got to me, she sort of opened her eyes and looked up and kind of asked me if she was out yet. And I said, "You are just about there. You are good to go. Just hold on a few more minutes and you will be all right."
TUCHMAN (on camera): And, Genelle, do you remember saying that?
GENELLE GUZMAN, WORLD TRADE CENTER SURVIVOR: Yes, I can remember saying that.
TUCHMAN: Do you remember that face?
GUZMAN: No, I can't remember the face.
BUCHANAN: I had less hair.
(LAUGHTER)
GUZMAN: I can't even remember this face, because as much as I opened my eyes, the dust, my eyes -- I could barely see.
CUSHMAN: Her eyes were shut most of time. She just opened them real quick.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): Genelle was in the hospital for five weeks. She had a crushed leg and lacerations.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We can do one at a time if you want.
TUCHMAN: But her recovery went well. She is now home and going back to the hospital for physical therapy and hopes someday to walk without assistance. These two rescuers didn't know she survived until they saw a CNN story about her last week.
BUCHANAN: When I saw her on the TV going through the exercises, I just -- I about lost it.
GUZMAN: Can't believe it, huh?
BUCHANAN: It was a beautiful thing. It really was. And it's even better sitting here with you now.
TUCHMAN (on camera): Thousands of rescuers participated in the effort to locate survivors buried in the rubble. Only five were ever found. (voice-over): And Genelle Guzman was the last of the five. Buchanan and Cushman paid a visit to ground zero during their short trip back to New York, but only after a most appreciative goodbye.
GUZMAN: Now I'm crying.
BUCHANAN: Thank you so much.
CUSHMAN: You really didn't have to do this.
BUCHANAN: Yes, you really didn't.
CUSHMAN: Thank you.
GUZMAN: Thank you.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): Gary Tuchman, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: And I'll be back in one hour in the CNN "War Room." Tomorrow, we'll get Dr. Anthony Fauci back to talk about anthrax.
Until then, I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE" begins right now.
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